CMOS vs CCD

The new Sony Cameras are all CMOS including the latest replacement for the Z1. Question: is it not true that 3CCD is still better than CMOS? I'm hesitating between the Z1/G1 and the new 3 CMOS Sony Camera.

Here is a comparison of the EX and HVX:
http://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Test/...y-PMW-EX1.html
The site is in German (and the pre-release EX tested had exposure problems) and I can't vouch for the methodology, but it appears as though the EX wins in low light. (Try Google translation for an approximation of English).
As for mpeg-2 (the EX1 uses an mpeg-4 wrapper), the mpeg-2 spec applies to decoding only, not encoding, so this is not your mother's codec. It has steadily improved over the years.
As to usability of mpeg-2 within Premiere, the following quote in Digital Content Producer magazine has me puzzled "Premiere Pro 2 reportedly already handles EX1's MP4 files with aplomb - drop 'n' drag style...". Could this be an accurate statement? I was thinking Cineform would be required.

Similar Messages

Mac won't recognize my Sony DRX-830UL-T DVD burner

Hi,
I have successfully used this burner in the past, but for some reason now my computer won't recognize the existence of my burner. When I go to Toast and attempt to burn movies, it only recognizes the DVD machine that comes with the computer, which does not burn DVDs. I believe I have it connected right. It's plugged in, and on. the top cord is connected. Please any help you could provide would be great. Something always seems to go wrong when I try to make a home movie! Thanks!

That's a High Definition camcorder with CMOS not CCD chip so it's recording at 1080i I believe ...
It has an s-videdo output and others have had success with iMovie etc. using that feed.

Pixel Aspect Ratio and ciphering type of footage-CS6

CS6- updated 12\18\13 V-11.03
Hi All,
A few questions about:
Pixel Aspect Ratio and ciphering type of footage. Bare with me as I touch on two different aspects of what I feel are related:
1. Setting up a Comp-
Having AE decide on the correct footage being used- Via >Import footage,.(to Folder) then drag it on, or into the 'make comp icon' where AE is supposed to do a 'best guess' for the comp settings. Be it square pix or otherwise. What are the second value in brackets ? See pic
2. Interpolation-
When using two diff footage sources- If using two different source footages in a comp. Is this where I should interplolate my footage to match the existing footage and the comp settings (If I have choosen NOT to pre-comp that secondary footage?)
3. Seperating fields-
How come footage that a camera manufacturer claims to be shooting in Progressive 30 or 24p is showing up as interlaced in my comp's CP? The manual to the cam says 30p or 24p or 60i The footage was shot at 30p (for sure)
Here is a screen grab of AE's 'best guess' of that footage, showing it with an UPPER field render; indicative of HD Interlaced footage and then in the inerpolate settings - 'kinda confirming it.
Now for the way out- Render:
4. If that is in fact Interlaced and I then want to reduce the size of that 1920 footage to 66% size... Do I need to do anything in particular at this point?
For some reason I am getting an error on my end when trying to export as an AVI and reducing size to 1280
5. Is this from the Field render of interlaced challenge?
I ended up with a couple of errors and then aborted the whole file and re-imported to start over with this error. Which happend again after a redoux
So I sent it over to Prem Pro to export those MTS Files as a movie and noted AGAIN the reference to Interlaced video. "upper and lower" Prem Pro was able to use the same MTS files and export a working movie. (so those files were not corrupt BTW) Yet Note PP's output reference to that footage again as Interlaced would be...
Thanks for any clarity on those "5" questions... NC

Thanks for the details Rick.
Thanks for the insight on #1
Ref #2, You should never change the interpretation of Pixel aspect ratio on footage unless you know for a certainty that it is wrong. For example, open Photoshop or Illustrator and create a new document that is 720 X 480 pixels and AE will always interpret the image as rectangular pixels because that is a standard rectangular pixel frame size.
Unless you specifically created the image in Photoshop with rectangular pixels it is square pixels so the interpretation must be changed to avoid distortion.
--Did you mean to write:
Unless you specifically created the image in Photoshop with SQUARE pixels using a rectangle layout? I am not trying to bust your blz here, I am trying to understand the unknown. (for me)
So it may very well be AE mis-guessing the footage and the Upper first is a mistake on AE's part and I need to test it to find out? On that note...
Ref#3, Separating fields must be done right. Some 1080P footage is interpreted as having fields. This may be incorrect and if there is a question you MUST test the footage. Test the footage by making sure that the fields are being separated
How do I make sure the fields are being seperated? Does the window as in pic two from the top of my post confirm that or is there another test?
Then I do the following:
then selecting the footage in the project panel and choosing Create Composition from Selection, then opening the Composition settings, doubling the frame rate and stepping through the footage a frame at a time. If the footage is really interlaced then each of the frames will be different. (IE: 29.94 to 59.94fps) OK
If the field order is reversed then motion will be in the right direction then reverse, then go back to the right direction. ---I did not understand? Are you referring to Upper and Lower reverse? Direction, as in fwd and back in Time line? Sorry unlclear on my end...
Oh and HFR footage? HFR? High frame rate??
One last thing, Do all cameras shoot anamorphic, or could they as AE is showing my MTS files; are Square? (1.00) Pic #1
@Dave- You -
At 1080, a lot of footage is interlaced, and evidently your camera made interlaced footage
Me- How do you know? because of the 2nd pic and upper field first indication?
You-Even if you know for a fact that it was shot 30p, the camera captures the entire frame... but it records it as two fields. They give it a fancy name: Progressive Segmented Frame.
Me- Is this typical false advertisement of the sales divison of brands like not telling you what CMOS or CCD is in a cam just slapping HD 1080p on the side of the box?
You-AE will treat it as an entire frame if you interpret it as having a field order of None.
Me- Won't that be a problem mis leading AE on an interpret?
Thanks Gents for the precise details.
Best
NC

Well Planned rip off

Yeah been using Photoshop CS for a few years and it works, my "Camera Raw" plugin worked well.
But I Made the mistake of upgrading my cam, and of course upgrading my cam is not that easy, no , I have to update the raw plugin too, but Adobe has decided not to make the raw plugin compatible with my old faithful CS now i have to update my Photoshop to CS3 so it turns out the most expensive part of buying a new camera is is not the camera, it is the software.
Now I understand why terrorits exist.
if anyone has an answer to how I can avoid having to mortgage my house so that i can use my new camera
I would be very grateful.

David,
" Yeah, noticed all film and camera technology ground to a halt after E6 was introduced in '77. "
Don't know what that's supposed to mean, but since it refers to my point about Film companies not sharing proprietary information, I simply meant just what I said. They don't and didn't. The DNG specification would force camera companies to share information they consider to be their trade secrets. They ain't gonna do it.
Additionally, the DNG specification makes no provision for technology already in use by one camera maker, Fujifilm, that sets it apart from others. They consider their secret their advantage and rightly so. Why would they conform to a RAW file specification that does not allow them to use their secret weapon?
As Mike says, It's all about market share. The only way Fujifilm can compete with a monolith like Canon is to have something special that the big guy doesn't. If Fujifilm isn't allowed to use its secret, or if they have to reveal it to a bigger competitor, they can't compete. The big guy would have the advantage both ways.
Fujifilm has always been a niche player in the camera business. They have had a very tiny piece of the camera pie, but their following has been very loyal. They have made very high quality medium format, range finder film cameras utilizing a larger than usual medium format size. Their equipment was highly prized by those who were interested.
Today, their flagship camera is a high dynamic range digital SLR which has a CCD sensor with 2 photosites (S and R to capture a few more stops dynamic range than "standard" CMOS or CCD sensors) for every pixel. No other camera has such a sensor.
Theirs is a niche market and they have been selling very well to wedding photographers (and many others) who praise the Fujifilm S5 for its ability to hold detail in the highlights of white dresses as well as deep shadows in the image area.
No RAW decoding software but Fujifilm's properly extracts the full high dynamic range information. Fujifilm refuses to give Adobe or anyone else the information needed to properly do it and reverse engineering apparently has not worked, or has not been worth the effort. ACR is particularly deficient with S5 RAW files.
All the Fujifilm cameras (S2, S3, S5) employ a hexagonal array, as opposed to the rectilinear array on all other cameras. The hex arrangement results in increased resolution in the vertical and horizontal directions but lower resolution in the diagonals. Rectilinear arrays are the opposite.
ACR HAD done a pretty good job with the Fujifilm S2 camera by reverse engineering the hex-related decoding, but the S3 and S5 high dynamic range files - not so good.
DNG makes no provision for the Fujifilm HDR technology. Why should Fujifilm play nice with Adobe?
I've only used the Fujifilm situation to illustrate. The concept applies to others as well. To compete, they need to have an advantage. DNG removes advantages.
There is a very big misunderstanding about standards benefitting the consumer vs standards becoming innovation-stifling constraints.
It was an advantage for all 35mm camera makers to make cameras which used the same size film. And it was an advantage for all film makers to provide 35 mm film at the same physical size. But those particular constraints didn't tie film manufacturers hands when cooking up distinctive light sensitive emulsions. In the digital world, DNG effectively prevents development beyond today's technology.
I realize, re-reading my previous post that I created confusion regarding the software that camera manufacturers produce. In general, the stuff SUCKS in terms of user interface, logic of user command structure, speed of operation, stability. As I've already said, in the case of at least Fujifilm, one must put up with that behavior to extract the best image quality from S5 RAW files.

Is flash memory compressed?

I just read something in an article that is either wrong or shows that I have been laboring under a falsehood.
Is flash memory COMPRESSED or NOT COMPRESSED? I was leaning towards a flash memory camcorder because it was free of the compression found with hard drive camcorders!
-L

Message was edited by: AppleMan1958
AppleMan wrote and I interspliced my responses:
AppleMan1958 wrote:
I would stay away from both these cameras, unless you are severely constrained in your budget. They are both standard definition. If I was getting a new camera, I would definitely go for high definition AVCHD.
.......... Lorna says ...........................
This comes on the heels of John C. saying that he would leave his AVCHD and get flash memory if he were to buy another camcorder. May I ask some questions?
1) *Why AVCHD?* What are its advantages? Is the advantage its newness? And does it have any downsides? Isn't it that iMovie '09 does not accept the kind of file that AVCHD sends? Or am I mixing AVCHD up with something else?
2) I see that the advantage of high definition is beauty, but it has real downsides in that it is such a memory gobbler, and for Youtube with those ten minute restrictions plus the megabyte restrictions, high definition would leave me with less time to present the actual video content.
Get an AVCHD camcorder from a leading brand like Sony, Panasonic, or Canon.
The Sony is an old mini-DV tape standard def camera. The Canon is an old MPEG2 standard def camera.
.......... Lorna says ...........................
Well, I like Sony and Canon and have a Panasonic telephone so those are all ok with me. So ok, my presentSony digital video camera recorder DCR-TRV 11 is an old mini-DV tape standard def camera and I should not buy a dinosaur technology, and that would include MPEG2.
So I will go now and research my eyeballs out looking for an AVCHD camcorder. But John C., if you are reading this, would you please tell me why you said that you would switch from AVCHD to FLASH MEMORY?
AppleMan: Is AVCHD memory that which is found inside a HARD DRIVE? Because if that is so, then I would be buyina a camcorder large enough to accommodate that memory size. <charcoal grey descending>. If I am wrong in my assumption, please let me know.
The picture quality on High Def versus standard is amazing, and if you are getting a new camera, you should go for it.
.......... Lorna says ...........................
AppleMan, I Know that the High Def picture is lovely. <Sigh> I was ready to give it up in exchange for having memory inside a little Flash Card.
I would imagine that someone told you to avoid CMOS, but CCD is rare these days in consumer cameras. I have one (the Panasonic HDC-SD5), but the Panasonic cameras in their current line all use CMOS. Personally, if I bought a new camera, I would make sure I got a camera that is 1920x1080, progressive (not interlaced), and a good optical zoom.
.......... Lorna says ...........................
Actually I read that about CMOS affecting Image Stabilization within the iMovie '09 application. I then found out what CMOS was (a type of image sensor). More reading told me that the preferred type of image sensor was CCD, and that is when I narrowed my choices to CCD and kicked out CMOS.
CCD is a plus but not necessary. When I need a steady image, I use a tripod. I have used image stabilization with good results, but it is nice to have, not must have, and you sacrifice some quality in the stabilization process.
.......... Lorna says ...........................
I cannot carry a tripod around, though. 8-( But this revives an old question that so far has not been answered: If iMovie '09 has that special image stabilization feature in it, then wouldn't it do the job anyway? So that the lack of IS in the camcorder would be an irrelevancy?
When you pick a camera, try it out in a store. Do not buy from specs only. And do not over think it.
.......... Lorna says ...........................
Appleman, if I had followed that advice up there about not over-thinking it, I would have bought the Canon FS100 from Amazon.com last night.
If your budget is only $300, I would go with a Flip MinoHD or similar. THey make great HD pictures but you give up some features like zoom.
.......... Lorna says ...........................
My budget can go over $300, but I was thinking that since I already have an expensive Sony digital video camera recorder DCR-TRV 11, I should try and be practical with this second camcorder. But I can afford higher.
The best stabilizer is a Steadicam Merlin, but they cost around $800 and there is a learning curve that many people never get through.
.......... Lorna says ...........................
I assume that a Steadicam Merlin is one of those big honking tubular mechanisms that take the shake out of the camcorder. Well, such an inconvenience is not for me. *I want a small, lightweight camcorder.* Hauling around a Steadicam Merlin or Neptune or Aphrodite would never happen with me.
And now I am going to Google around for camcorders that are ACVHD MEMORY, in Sony, Canon, or Panasonic. Probably Canon because I keep reading how Sony gives problems for uploading to the computer.
Also, I have a Canon digital camera: SD970 IS. It also has a video.
-L
Message was edited by: AppleMan1958
AppleMan wrote and I interspliced my responses:
I would stay away from both these cameras, unless you are severely constrained in your budget. They are both standard definition. If I was getting a new camera, I would definitely go for high definition AVCHD.
Get an AVCHD camcorder from a leading brand like Sony, Panasonic, or Canon.
The Sony is an old mini-DV tape standard def camera. The Canon is an old MPEG2 standard def camera.
The picture quality on High Def versus standard is amazing, and if you are getting a new camera, you should go for it.
I would imagine that someone told you to avoid CMOS, but CCD is rare these days in consumer cameras. I have one (the Panasonic HDC-SD5), but the Panasonic cameras in their current line all use CMOS. Personally, if I bought a new camera, I would make sure I got a camera that is 1920x1080, progressive (not interlaced), and a good optical zoom.
CCD is a plus but not necessary. When I need a steady image, I use a tripod. I have used image stabilization with good results, but it is nice to have, not must have, and you sacrifice some quality in the stabilization process.
When you pick a camera, try it out in a store. Do not buy from specs only. And do not over think it.
If your budget is only $300, I would go with a Flip MinoHD or similar. THey make great HD pictures but you give up some features like zoom.
The best stabilizer is a Steadicam Merlin, but they cost around $800 and there is a learning curve that many people never get through.
Message was edited by: AppleMan1958

Sanyo Xacti HD2000

Need everyones feedback, compatibility, and info on Sanyo's new HD camcorder, Xacti HD2000. How does iMovie's '09 stabilization work with it?

Stabilization of CMOS and CCDs has a different effect due to the techniqué, how the pic is 'read-out' from the chip..
• each frame of video from a CCD is read-out as a 'snapshot', like a piece of film ..
• from CMOS, each frame is read-out line-per-line..
so, if object or camera is moving, the content has a different 'place' on each line..
demo:
camera pans fast from right to left => object distorted, 'shifted' diagonally ..
in moving-pictures, the effect is even worse..
.. made you a demo, focus on horizon (shakey vs stabilzed) and background/clouds (after stabi: pumping, 'jello effect'), camera-in-use has no on-board-stabilization .. :
click on pic, YouTube link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBMs4y6wUAQ&hd=1
to stress it again:
this is due to camera-chip/hardware, not due to algorithm/software!

Need info on compatibility

Hello again, my application runs successfully on my mobile nokia 5800 xpress music. I'm aware that just because another device has JVM, it doesn't mean that the application will run successfully, if at all. So I'd like some websites I can read to find out more as to why a midlet can work in one device but not another.
Thanx.
PS. I hope this was the right section.

Stabilization of CMOS and CCDs has a different effect due to the techniqué, how the pic is 'read-out' from the chip..
• each frame of video from a CCD is read-out as a 'snapshot', like a piece of film ..
• from CMOS, each frame is read-out line-per-line..
so, if object or camera is moving, the content has a different 'place' on each line..
demo:
camera pans fast from right to left => object distorted, 'shifted' diagonally ..
in moving-pictures, the effect is even worse..
.. made you a demo, focus on horizon (shakey vs stabilzed) and background/clouds (after stabi: pumping, 'jello effect'), camera-in-use has no on-board-stabilization .. :
click on pic, YouTube link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBMs4y6wUAQ&hd=1
to stress it again:
this is due to camera-chip/hardware, not due to algorithm/software!

A word on RAW files

With more hobbyists and prosumers using Aperture, a quick word on RAW files.
RAW files are not image files in the traditional sense .... in fact they are really gray scale files of luminance (brightness) values that are collected from receptors on the CMOS or CCD array.
Array, often called a Bayer Array after the engineer who designed the sensor. The CCD/CMOS sensor is an odd affair. It (other than Fuji, Sigma) is invariably a diagonal array of photo receptors, each with a color filter over it. The accuracy of the filter to the defined value of Red, or Green or Blue means that interpretation is needed to make it look the same as the standard value ...... at every brightness level from zero (no light) to full (saturated). These two items, color accuracy and brightness mapping are part of RAW conversion.
The other non-obvious thin g about the array is that it has more green sensors than reds or blues. Why? Because our eyes see more green in daily life since its in the middle of our visible spectrum. Sensors are rather dumb and stupid about this, not having a brain and all to back them up. Well, they would if we took the jpg's from the camera, but we'd be restricted to whatever the developer said was the "right" answer under all lighting and contrast conditions .... exactly why we want to control the RAW processing, and use our brains and judgement, right?
So, twice as many greens? Yes. But it gets trickier. Since we want to interpret a tone (color) and shade (brightness) for a pixel, we somehow need to map 3 colors (or as we've just discovered 3 colors and a 2nd green) to each pixel. This feat is called interpolation. How it's done is perhaps as much art as science since our eye does not see colors the same at low light levels as it does at mid or bright levels. That brain again helps out! Again we need to use that same brain to help refine the image we see coming out of the RAW processing engine.
But there's yet another problem. Our eyes and brain in combination are freakily fantastic. Despite the microscopic size of those sensors on the CCD/CMOS imager, they are in a geometric array .... and although we can't see them directly, we become immediately aware of them when we see output from it. So a "demosaic" or moire filter needs to be applied to soften the geometric nature of the array. And each array is different and needs different filtering.
So, lots and lots of interpretation is needed before the thing that's captured can be recognized as an image on our screens. How one company (Adobe, Apple, or camera manufacturer etc.) does this is proprietary to them, and so no edits on RAW's can be moved from one software company to another unless you take a resolved version .... jpg, tiff, psd etc.

Most digital cameras use the Bayer pattern colour filter array for their sensor. In a Bayer Pattern CFA, we have a rectangular array of pixels, and each pixel either has a green, red, or blue filter on it. There are variants to this pattern, the complementary CMY system, RGB+clear etc. Some cameras use diagonal arrays of pixels, but these are less common. Fuji have a pattern with large and small pixels, which is unique to them. I'll talk only about the standard RGGB Bayer Pattern here, that most cameras use.
The repeating pattern is something like this:
R G R G
G B G B
R G R G
G B G B
There are one red, and one blue pixel for every pair of green pixels. This is due to green being the largest component of luma, and hence most easily perceived as contributing most to detail.
Sensors convert light hitting the pixels into a an electrical charge, then to a voltage that gets converted into a digital signal. This digital signal will represent, linearly, the amount of light that hit that pixel. Black, however, in the raw signal may not be at zero, and blacked off calibration areas of the sensor will be recorded to allow for an absolute value for black to be found, and hence give properly linear data for the RAW conversion.
The first stage in RAW conversion is to demosaic the data, which is to interpolate the missing values from the CFA, ie what is green on the red and blue pixels, what is blue on the red and green pixels and what is red on the green and blue pixels. Once this is done, we have a red, green and blue value at each pixel. The demosaicing process can be as complex or as simple as you like. There are as many methods as I've had hot dinners, so it's not suitable for me to go through the current work in this field, but a quick google will help you find more info if it's something that interests you. Most algorithms work on a much larger area of pixels than just the immediate surrounding ones for the algorithm, and this can vastly improve the quality of the conversion.
Demosaicing can lead to image artifacts. These can be exacerbated in cameras that do not have, or do not have adequate optical low pass filtering ahead of the image sensor. That's a topic for another essay though! Moire is one symptom of inadequate filtering, and in Bayer CFAs mostly shows up as chroma moire because there are half as many red and blue pixels as there are green, and hence they are sampled at a lower rate. Chroma Moire, to a great extent, can be visually eliminated with clever RAW processing, however moire in general cannot easily be eliminated once it gets into a image.
Here are some of the main types of artifacts you may see:
"zippering" often caused by over-simplistic interpolation on the green pixels. The edges of straight lines can look like a zipper
"parquet floor" often caused by a simple adaptive algorithm for interpolation getting confused by high local detail
"chroma fringes" are a problem inherent in Bayer CFAs, but can be made worse by some algorithms, and often eliminated by others.
The next stage in processing is on the RGB data to perform colour space conversion from the camera RGB space to a known RGB space, and white balance etc. We still have linear data at this point, and that's very important for such calculations. Finally, a tonal curve will be used to map from linear light data to a pleasing tonal representation for viewing.
Graeme

WANTED: Test Engineer for CCD/CMOS image sensors and cameras...

TEST ENGINEER
Education: BSEE or equivalent
Experience: 5+ years experience in Test Engineering. Preferred experience with Imaging and CCD cameras. Must have programming experience with labview, and experience with other languages is a plus. Must be familiar with standard test equipment such as an oscilloscope, parameter analyzer, etc. Working knowledge of electronic circuits, and familiar with camera parameters. Experience as a technical lead is a plus.
Duties: Characterize and test CCD/CMOS image sensors and cameras. Develop test plans, and create automated test systems. Provide documentation, training and support for systems engineering efforts. Develop quick solutions for engineering camera development efforts to aid in root cause analysis.
Located in Milpitas, California, in the heart of the Silicon Valley, Fairchild Imaging is a pioneer in the CCD industry. We recognize our products are only as good as our people who develop them. We are therefore looking for passionate, innovative people who enjoy the challenges of technology. We offer competitive salaries, outstanding benefits, a 9/80 work schedule and a fun and creative working environment.
U.S. Citizenship or permanent residency required. Fairchild Imaging is an equal opportunity employer.

Visit the Fairchild Imaging Website for details on the company and the products. Fairchild Imaging makes a wide spectrum of cameras including Aerospace, scientific and medical and Fairchild Imaging has been producing CCDs since 1975. Our cameras range in pixels size from below 1meg to over 81 meg with pixels down to 8.75u. One of our CCDs was used in the Deep Impact project where a camera was fired into a comet which is one of many interesting projects.
You will be working on a team of 10 dealing with testing of camera systems with responsiblity for test at the wafer level to finished camera. This is a great opportunity to work with a talented staff with a interesting mix of products.

AVCHD cameras CCD or CMOS

First thanks for take your time and read my question. So I'm not a Pro I edit for my self and my friends. That being said I film most of the time Action Sports (BMX) and I want to buy a camcorder under $800 I saw two panasonic camcorders both capture in AVCHD format but one is 3CCD and the other CMOS. So the question is CCD or CMOS witch is best for Action Sports? and If CMOS is ok with a single 1/6 CMOS or a 3MOS?
Thanks for your time.

Hi thanks both for the replys I agree with you guys the rolling shutter in the CMOS cameras can cause problems in a fast motion enviorment for waht I read. I have an old Panasonic with a Leica Dicomar lens and a 3CCD sensor and to me it looks good. So I will search the internet for a good and reliable store where to buy a Panasonic HDC-SD9 any store recomendations are welcome. Also if I can't find a reliable store on the internert where to buy the camera,
What in your is better a sigle CMOS chip or a 3MOS sensor or you think that for my needs I will not see the difference?
Again thanks guys

Reset CMOS, system will not boot

This is a long story but I will try to keep it short:
I just bought a new 875P Neo-FISR and a 3.0 GHz Prescott, which from reading the other posts could have been a mistake. I installed the CPU, memory, and the video card and pressed the power button and received a "CMOS Data Wrong" error. So I tried to correct the problem but when I saved and exited then the system would not boot back up. So, I reset the CMOS via the jumper and tried again. After MANY attempts I change just the month in the date setting. And what do you know...it would not boot back up. The D-Bracket LEDs were: 1-flashing red/green, 2-flashing red/green, 3-red, and 4-red
I must have read almost every post in this forum and tried many things such as:
disconnecting all componets except for video, ram, and cpu
the during boot to recover the BIOS
removing mobo from case, maybe a short
moving the memory to different slots
moving the PSU to a different computer...it works
disconnecting the PSU from the mobo and and removing the battery overnight. The first night I did not disconnecting the PSU from the mobo and I found that did nothing.
Tryed everything that I could think of and some stuff that others thought of but nothing worked. However the last item...removing the battery...did change things some. Now nothing happens, and I mean nothing...no lights, no fans, no buzzing...nothing.
Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. The only recourse I have left is to RMA the board.

I tried one stick in all of the slots with and without the sound card. That did not work either.
The voltage for my memory is 2.6 so that is what I tried. But if I can get it to boot up again I will try 2.7.
Tks.

MSI P35 Neo-F cmos checksum "bad"

Hi
I bought the board mentioned in the title, and after putting my E5200 into it I realized that the MB didn't support it using the bios version it had in it. So, I used the AMI bios recovery thingy (http://www.msicomputer.com/support/BIOS_AMI_Recovery.asp) using floppy and after that I was able to boot it up properly.
But after changing the bios settings a bit, I faced the exact same problem as the fellow here (https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?;topic=125698.0). I understood that I'm forced to flash the bios again using the MSI Forum HQ USB Flashing Tool mentioned in that topic.
The problem here is that I can't use that flashing tool as I'm not able to get into Windows and use the tool. The tool won't work on my second comp as it doesn't have MSI MB in it.
So what do I do to flash the bios? Any help would be appreciated.

Quote
I understood that I'm forced to flash the bios again using the MSI Forum HQ USB Flashing Tool mentioned in that topic.
You have to reflash the BIOS the regular way (and you are not limited to the MSI Forum HQ USB Flashing Tool (it is only an option). The AMI BIOS Recovery Procedure is not a regular way to update your BIOS. That CMOS Checksum Message you get after start-up is a known side effect.
Quote
The problem here is that I can't use that flashing tool as I'm not able to get into Windows and use the tool. The tool won't work on my second comp as it doesn't have MSI MB in it.
Here you go:
1. Download the following tool. Then install it on your second system:
http://files.extremeoverclocking.com/file.php?f=197
2. Download the DOS-File.rar Archives that you find attached at the bottom of this post and unpack the files into a folder of your choice.
3. Start the HP USB Format Tool and select "Create DOS Startup Disk". Point the tool to the DOS-Files you just unpacked:
Your USB Flash Drive should now be bootable.
4. Download the latest BIOS Version for your board: http://download1.msi.com/files/downloads/bos_exe/7360v1A.zip ... and copy the following files to the root directory of your USB Flash Drive: Afud408.exe (Flasher) and A7360IMS.1A0 (BIOS-File).
5. Hook up the just prepared USB Flash Drive to your P35 Neo-F and force it to boot from it. Once you reach the DOS Command Prompt, type the following command to start the BIOS Flash:
Afud408 A7360IMS.1A0 /P /B /N /C
Once the procedure is over and you did not get any error messages, turn off your system, clear CMOS with main A/C power cable removed from PSU. After that, things should be back to normal if everything went fine.
Note: In order to force your P35 Neo-F to boot from the USB Flash Drive, disconnect all other drives so that the USB Flash Drive is the only bootable device connected to your system. When you get the CMOS Checksum Message after start-up, simply load defaults without entering BIOS Setup. The system should then move on to booting DOS from your Flash Drive.

K7N2 Delta-L deteriorating cmos resets

Hi
System info :
K7N2 Delta-L mobo
XP2500 Barton
2 x 256mb Samsung (Korean) PC3200
Coolermaster CP5-8JD1F-0L hsf
PNY ti4200 128mb
Maxtor 40g 7,200 hd
Pioneer DVD
LG CD-RW
2 x 80mm case fans
1st psu 400w generic
2nd psu Thermaltake 420w
All installed with first psu, and XP pro. Running no problems. Tested cpu at 11 x 200 (not straight off, gradually built up to it, watching for stability or temp problems), was running fine at stock voltages, ran 3d mark 2001 successfully. Backed things off to 10.5 x 200 to ensure stability. Re-ran 3dmark 2001, then ran prime95 overnight (8+ hours), with no problems at all. Temperatures were fine, I set the cpu temperature alarm well into the safe side in the bios (55deg). The highest cpu temperature PC Alert displayed, was 29 deg.
Updated the bios to 5.3, rebooted and checked the settings in the bios, went back into XP, no probs, re-ran 3dmark, went online, and started to play Dark Age of Camelot. After somewhere around 2 - 3 hours, the display started to "stutter", and the mouse movement became erratic. I logged off, checked PC Alert temps, all was fine, but 12v line had gone down to 11.56v. Rebooted to check the volts in the bios. They were down too, also the blue line selector had acquired a mind of its own, randomly headed anywhere when next item was selected, so I switched off, and guessing the psu to be maybe a bit inadequate, ordered the Thermaltake 420w to replace the 400w generic.
The Thermaltake arrives, install and fire up, after clearing the cmos to start again, and set up with basics. Voltages were all very satisfactory. In the meantime I had checked the cpu seating and thermal compound, and there had been no problems, and I also took the heatsink off the ti4200 to check thermal compound, cleaned and re-applied (as I did with the cpu).
On the fire up into XP, got a bsod with file corruption notice. Booted into Me install cd, formatted the drive, loaded smartdrv, and started a new XP install. The system locked up after a successful install, about 2 minutes into the worktop (went to use windows explorer to access drivers, etc., and it froze). Had to use the reset button, and it would not post. Cleared the cmos, and it posted. Reflashed the bios to 5.2 that was on the distribution cd just in case.
Since then, it has been a catalogue of failed installs, lockups and increasingly difficult clearing of the cmos. It is now at the point that a cmos clear does nothing (with the other pins at 100 and safe mode), and it fails to post. I get to the 3 lights flashing on the keyboard, and that is it.
I removed the board from the case, just in case I had hallucinated and missed a riser or something, but the risers were in the right place, and each had a fibre washer on top. Tried booting with the board out of the system, with just the cpu/hsf/memory/graphics, with no joy, also tried with a Gf 4 mx 440, and also no joy.
In retrospect, I don't think the 400w psu was too bad to drive the system, but it was worth being cautious - it has driven another system with no problems since. The cpu was performing great, as was the memory. There was no problem with the hsf or agp card. Memory was tried single stick in each memory slot (and all of it had flown through 3dmark and prime95 previously).
I am tempted to suspect something is adrift to do with the Athlon powersaving mode that has been mentioned in these forums. Other than that, there was something a bit weak on the mobo, and it has slowly bitten the dust.
Any suggestions gratefully received.

PS.
The case is one of those Superflower Midi towers, with good case volume. Airflow was quite nice with the 2 extra fans, one at front pulling in, the other at rear extracting.
The fan on top of the heatsink, is the standard Coolermaster, which overhangs the heatsink either side, with the bonus of blowing a nice airflow over the northbridge.
The 400w generic psu had 2 fans, which were also pulling a fair airflow through the case. I didn't get any indications of anything even aproaching overheating.

790FX-GD70 - have to boot several times - CMOS Memory Wrong - 2E?

Well I just recently bought this mobo and have some problems already.
My config ============
- Phenom X4 955
- 4GB GoodRam 1333MHz
- Sapphire Radeon HD4890 Vapor-X
- Intel SSD 80GB Gen2
- Samsung H3EG 500GB
- PSU BeQuiet! PurePower L7 530W
All power cables are connected to motherboard and the GPU (even both extra 12V).
========================
At first it worked fine, I installed Windows 7 without any problems, all of the programs etc.
The only thing I changed in BIOS is the CPU Fan speed - because I have a very loud AMD box fan I just set the desired temp. (60C) and set the lowest fan speed for 25% - that's all.
Then, on the next day I started the PC up and all I saw was a black screen - no graphic info on the monitor, all fans running and POST led showing 2E.
I turned it off and the next boot went fine. The PC was running fine and stable the wholeeee day, no problems whatsoever.
After two or three days the problem worsened - it now takes not one but several (probably around 10) reboots to make the PC running. At all times the POST-LED shows "2E". After it finally starts then I see the message CMOS Memory Wrong Hour and Date not set etc. After I set it up all works fine further on (I usually keep my PC running for 10 to 16 hours).
However, there's one other thing - AFTER I turn the PC off it starts again by itself! And it's again with an error! Now, that's sick...
My guess is that something is interfering with the CMOS mem or the chipset. A good indicator of that is the CPU fan - at normal boots I can hear its RPM going down just after the PC starts, way before it gets to initializing memory. With an error-start the fan works at full speed all the time.
So, in short:
1. I have to boot my PC several times before it starts correctly.
2. I get the CMOS Memory Wrong message after a successful boot.
3. When running the PC is stable, has no problems, shows no errors or signs of instability.
4. When I turn it off (Windows -> Shut down) the computer starts again by itself - and with an error again (CPU fan is working on high RPM, screen is black etc.).
Any idea? I unplugged all small cords (Power LED, Power Switch, HDD etc.) and start the PC with a button on mobo - but it made no difference.

OK, it's not the PSU - I have just found what causes the problem.
I followed the trace left by my monitor and apparently my computer will not boot without the monitor turned on before.
I tried several times - every time my screen is off, the PC won't start. When it's on (before the PC itself) everything works fine.
I guess I have to wait for my new screen and check it out again. As I said - I use an old CRT Dell with VGA -> DVI adapter - and I believe it is the cause.
I noticed that even putting the adapter itself on the cable when the monitor is on, makes it react to it. Maybe there's some electric charge that goes through the card to the mobo? I don't know. Odd enough - this is the source of the problem - 95% sure
Anybody has any idea why it happens?

CMOS Checksum Error on MSI 785GM-E51

Hi, I have 2 years old MSI 785GM-E51. Approximately 2 - 3 months ago, my PC just go hang without any reasons, even the mouse / keyboard won't respond to anything.
After I reset, sometimes it's fine, but sometimes it's hang again, the interval is random. Sometimes it even hang when in the POST or when i enter BIOS setting.
After several restart, it's sometimes gives me CMOS Checksum Error, so I decided to reset the CMOS using jumper method. After that my PC just works normal.
Until a week ago, my pc start to hang randomly again, the symptom is similar but this time sometimes it's not hang, but the PC just restart immediately with black / white / blue random pattern
displayed momentarily on the screen. And it always display CMOS Checksum Error. I already tried reinstalling Windows, and updating BIOS via flash disk from Live Update 5, no use.
I already tried to plug out my VGA and using the onboard one, still crash / hang randomly. I also test Memtest overnight with passing 11 pass without error.
Is it my motherboard already dead? or it's my PSU? CPU?
Here is my complete specs:
AMD Phenom II X4 955BE
MSI 785GM-E51
DDR3 Dual Channel 4GB RAM (corsair, forgot the model)
Radeon 5770
WDC 1TB
WDC 1.5TB
Amacrox Free Style 650W
Thanks in advance.

Quote
Yesterday i desperate enough and change some BIOS settings, and
surprisingly, the CPU is much cooler!
Try entering bios, hitting f6 for optimized defaults then save and exit. See if problem persists.
Quote
As far as I remember, no, the crash / hang time i remembered is when POST / boot / startup / browsing / install app / playing games / copy file.
And one more thing, when it hangs, it really hangs, not just the windows, sometimes it even not respond to reset button, so i have to power it off. But sometimes it respond
to reset button, but with quite a long delay, it could half a minute i think.
Have you tried re-seating the cpu,memory and all of the power connectors etc?
What are the amp ratings on the 12v rail of the PSU? I found this on thier website but dont have time to dig furthur: Quote
4-Channel 12V Rails Design
Although the VGA you list only needs 24a on a 12v rail.
Quote
what's cpuid / ram timings / spd? where i can look at it?
http://www.cpuid.com/
When the program opens, take a screen shot of the tab that describe how your ram is running, It will show the current timings,speed, single or dual channel. Also take a ss of the spd tab, which will show the jdec standards that apply to that ram and the xmp profile. Then post the SS's to imageshack or the link and link them.

CMOS vs CCD

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