DNG Profiles and the ACR Calibrator

In the past the Fors ACR Calibrator (and the manual procedure conceived by Bruce Fraser) was required to account for production differences between instances of the same camera model. If I wish to use the new Adobe Standard Profiles, should I then rerun the Calibrator? I realize I will have to update the code to handle the new ACR version number - I already did this for 4.4.1.

Thanks for the nice feedback, Bill.
To clarify the point brought up by you and Richard: there are two basic ways to use the chart wizard feature.
First, you can use it to build a profile optimized for one lighting condition. This is the more familiar case, esp. to those of you who have used the CR calibration scripts in the past. This mode is described in Tutorial 5, and is enabled by choosing the 'Both Color Tables' option from the popup in the Chart tab. What happens here is that a single set of color lookup table adjustments is created, which is applied regardless of the white balance of the image. You can use any illuminant when photographing the ColorChecker; doesn't have to be illuminant A or D65. Such a profile will work pretty well as long as your real images don't stray too far spectrally from the illuminant you used to shoot the CC.
Second, you can use it to build a more general profile as described in tutorial 6, but you would need to shoot the CC in conditions as close as you can get to A and D65 for best results. (~D50 or ~D55 lighting as a substitute for D65 should work pretty well.) The DNG 1.2 profile format actually allows the two illuminants to be different than A and D65, but currently the DNG Profile Editor's chart wizard feature only supports these two.
Bill, you should be able to shoot the checker in the manner you describe (i.e., under noon sunlight on a blue sky day, and also under the incandescent bulb) and have it work well.
When I was testing this, I used a standard household incandescent (very close to illuminant A; I was curious and measured it with an Eye-One spectro) and then tried various flavors of daylight (including Solux bulbs, which aren't that close to D65) for the D65 "half" of the profile. The daylight portion didn't make that much difference.

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    Message was edited by: Marco N.

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    X-Rite and Adobe have provisions for creating custom DNG profiles. DataColor just announced a product that appears to operate like these two but instead of making DNG profiles (or as we had in the old days, altering the Calibration Tab), updates the HSL controls. My understanding is that DNG profiles and the Calibration tab operate in a different order of the processing, prior to all the sliders above them. My understanding is there are benefits for doing this but I’d like to know more about this. The question is, what are the practical implications of “calibrating” via a target that affects HSL sliders instead of producing a DNG profile, or at the very least, altering the calibration sliders? Eric you out there bud?

    Andrew,
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    My impression is that this DNG forum has been neglected if not outright abandoned.  Just look at the obsolete and mistyped "announcement" at the top of the index page.
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  • DNG profiles, Calibration tab vs. HLS

    Cross post (asked on the DNG forum but there isn’t much activity so forgive me)
    X-Rite and Adobe have provisions for creating custom DNG profiles. DataColor just announced a product that appears to operate like these two but instead of making DNG profiles (or as we had in the old days, altering the Calibration Tab), updates the HSL controls. My understanding is that DNG profiles and the Calibration tab operate in a different order of the processing, prior to all the sliders above them. My understanding is there are benefits for doing this but I’d like to know more about this. The question is, what are the practical implications of “calibrating” via a target that affects HSL sliders instead of producing a DNG profile, or at the very least, altering the calibration sliders? Eric you out there bud?

    thedigitaldog wrote:
    The question is, what are the practical implications of “calibrating” via a target that affects HSL sliders instead of producing a DNG profile, or at the very least, altering the calibration sliders? Eric you out there bud?
    I'm not Eric (not sure he would want to respond to this question) but I'll take a stab...first off, let me state that I haven't personally tested either the  SyderCHECKR PRO color target or the software. I've only watched the video and read the user manual. But I do have some issues regarding usability and the "practical implications" of using the HSL Sliders vs a DNG profile.
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    What is also not mentioned in the videos nor the manual is what the user is supposed to do regarding the starting DNG profile. Does Datacolor suggest using Adobe Standard or some other DNG profile? I ask because the HSL calibration applied as a preset depends upon the DNG profile used to create the color sample file and adding a calibration on top of an existing DNG profile seems to complicate the whole calibration process. When using DNG profiles, it's pretty straightforward what the DNG profile creation is actually doing. Adding an HSL adjustment on top of an existing DNG profile adds complexity to the process and reduces the portability of the camera calibration.
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    In principal, I encourage the development of more and better solutions for both Lightroom and Camera Raw. Whether or not the HSL calibration approach is superior to the DNG profile calibration approach, I really wonder whether or not HSL is a better solution than the DNG profile approach. It seems to me that Adobe (and Thomas Knoll and Eric Chan) have spent a lot of time and effort to develop an open solution to camera calibration that the SpyderCHECKR approach is ignoring. Personally, I would have encouraged the option to create either a DNG profile _OR_ an HSL calibration preset. I think it's a mistake to ignore the DNG profile approach.

  • Addressing Eric and the rest of the ACR team directly: your help is needed

    The Digital Dog has posted a very interesting question in two other forums:
    http://forums.adobe.com/thread/727453?tstart=0
    Sep 23, 2010 5:52 PM
                                        DNG profiles, Calibration tab and HLS
    Andrew Rodney wrote:
    X-Rite
    and Adobe have provisions for creating custom DNG profiles. DataColor
    just announced a product that appears to operate like these two but
    instead of making DNG profiles (or as we had in the old days, altering
    the Calibration Tab), updates the HSL controls. My understanding is that
    DNG profiles and the Calibration tab operate in a different order of
    the processing, prior to all the sliders above them. My understanding is
    there are benefits for doing this but I’d like to know more about this.
    The question is, what are the practical implications of “calibrating”
    via a target that affects HSL sliders instead of producing a DNG
    profile, or at the very least, altering the calibration sliders? Eric
    you out there bud?
    I would also be grateful for any insight into this issue.
    Thanks in advance.
    Wo Tai Lao Le
    我太老了

    Thank you for leaving this link here and for providing a thoughtful commentary over there.  Your efforts are most appreciated, Mr. Schewe.
    Wo Tai Lao Le
    我太老了

  • Simulating DNG Profile changes in PSD file

    Hello  everyone,
    I have a RAW file and applied Adobe's default DNG Profile (via the Camera Calibration panel in Lightroom 2.6) and converted it to a PSD file so I can retouch the photo via Photoshop CS3.
    After hours of retouching, I now want to apply a custom DNG Profile that I made from a Color Checker. However, I'm not able to apply the profile to "already-rendered images" (http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/DNG_Profiles:FAQ#WhyOnlyEmbedded)
    So my question is: Is there any way to simulate the effects of a profile change via Photoshop adjustments (i.e. HUE/SAT adjustments)?
    Please feel free to let me know if more clarification is  needed.
    Thanks,
    David

    I thought I'd posted a reply but I failed to make it stick, somehow. Anyway, thanks Jim for that. Makes perfect sense.
    Except I've just had a further thought. Why would Adobe change a file name to distinguish between color spaces if DNGs/RAWs are color-space agnostic? Where it would make sense is with jpegs, but name-changing doesn't happen there, of course, as there's no conversion taking place.

  • DNG profile management

    Is it possible to create and use a shoot-specific custom DNG profile to process a set of images for a given shoot, and then archive that DNG profile for safekeeping but removed from view of Lightroom's Camera Calibration panel, without compromising Lightroom's ability to still work with that shoot's images - say, to make further develop refinements, virtual copy variations, prints, etc.?
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    /eddie

    Thank you to those who have offered responses.
    Please do not get confused. As the most recent response clarifies, this is not about storing profiles within original raw files, or the differences between DNG files and original raw files. In fact, at it essence, my real concern is not even about DNG files at all, really, although it includes them by association.
    My original question can really be answered in consideration of Lightroom alone: When a custom DNG profile is selected for an image by using the Camera Calibration panel of Lightroom's Develop module, does Lightroom itself internalize that DNG profile selection by recording into the Lightroom metadata database only the IDENTITY of that DNG profile assignment, or the actual DNG profile data contained within that DNG profile? If Lightroom records into the Lightroom database only the identity of the assigned DNG profile, then Lightroom would of course need to go back into that DNG profile later for the actual DNG profile data in order to do any subsequent development processing of the image for which that DNG profile was assigned. If, however, selection of a DNG profile using the Camera Calibration panel of Lightroom's Develop module causes Lightroom to record into the Lightroom database the actual DNG profile data contained within the selected DNG profile, then Lightroom would have no need to go back into that DNG profile later for the profile data, and the DNG profile itself could be safely "un-installed" ("Disabled" by the X-Rite DNG Profile Manager) without adversely affecting Lightroom's ability to properly process that image using the selected DNG profile's information. DNG image files themselves are not even really involved in determining the answer at this level.
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    So, my real question really still remains. Combining the ideas from both of the paragraphs above, if Lightroom only saves DNG profile data out to the associated DNG image file using this more obscure mechanism, then does that mean that Lightroom does not normally retain the DNG profile data within the Lightroom database at all -- that it really only retains the identity of the selected DNG profile, and that only when this obscure mechanism is explicitly invoked does Lightroom deem it appropriate to actually read the profile data out of the selected DNG profile and pass that profile data along to the associated DNG image file, and that even then Lightroom itself does not retain that profile data internally? If this is the case, then the DNG profile cannot be "Disabled" without adversely affecting normal Lightroom processing of the associated image [by "adversely", I mean without having Lightroom revert to the Adobe Standard profile or any other unintended side effects]. However, if Lightroom actually does retain this profile data internally upon original DNG profile selection, even if it doesn't bother to save it to the associated DNG image file except through the use of the obscure function, then it would be safe to "Disable" the DNG profile after initial profile selection and not interfere with Lightroom's normal ability to process the associated image using that profile.
    Taking the obscure function awareness into account, I guess this now has the possibility of making this subject much more complex. If Lightroom does not store DNG profile data within the Lightroom database (which would require continued availability of the DNG profile for processing associated images), BUT Lightroom provides this obscure mechanism for "forcing" save of assigned DNG profile data out to the associated DNG image file, then what happens when the DNG profile is "Disabled" and Lightroom goes to process that image? Does it look into the associated DNG image file to determine if actual DNG profile data has been saved there and go ahead and use it if it exists? Or does Lightroom ignore DNG profile data saved to a DNG image file in all contexts, and unconditionally always require the assigned DNG profile to remain available in order to carry out normal Lightroom development or rendering processing of the associated image?
    This is admittedly a lot of words to discuss a simple desire: I want to shoot with shoot-specific DNG profiles, assign them to the shoot's images and develop them, and then archive off ("Disable") the DNG profiles from that shoot so that my Camera Calibration "Profile" listbox does not become unmanageable. Period. If I absolutely must go back and re-Enable a specific DNG profile later to make a print of one of those images a year from now, then I guess that's what I have to do, but that seems a real shame when all other image-assigned "edits" store those "edits" as image-specific metadata, and profile assignment is just another "edit" (although saving the profile data, rather than just the profile identity, may not be included in this "edit"). Whatever works out to be the simplest, most straightforward course to accomplish my objective is what I need to do. Ideally, that would be painless if Lightroom records into the Lightroom database the actual DNG profile data when the profile is assigned to an image using the Camera Calibration panel's Profile selector.

  • Simulate DNG profile change via Photoshop

    Hello everyone,
    I have a RAW file and applied Adobe's default DNG Profile (via the  Camera Calibration panel in Lightroom 2.6) and converted it to a PSD file so I can retouch the photo via Photoshop CS3.
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    Please feel free to let me know if more clarification is needed.
    Thanks,
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    Hi Wolf,
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    1. I exported the retouched PSD file as a DNG file via Lightroom 2.6
    2. I then opened the DNG file in Camera Raw via Adobe Bridge
    3. At this point, I checked the "Open in Photoshop as Smart Objects" option and opened the file in Photoshop CS3
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    5. However, when I go to the camera calibration panel, I am still not able to apply another profile; I only see an "Embedded" profile in the Profile popup menu and no other options.
    Any advice would be much appericated.
    David

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