Intermediate codecs for 3D renderings + performance

Hello everyone!
I am looking for a codec to use in our offices. We produce fully 3D rendered architectural walkthroughs through 3DS max and vray. I am looking for a codec we can use for our workflow. Image sequences/passes are rendered, then composted in After Effects and sent to video editing for music and sound effects. I would like to find the best codec that gives best performance and quality when using Adobe Premiere.
We are all on PC here. Here's the issue, Some of the PC's here are on CS6 and the editing station is on CC. CC has Cineform built in which is wonderful and beautiful but is not included in CS6 (not for free anyway). DNxHD is free, but uses the QT32 service which really only allows the editing PC to max out at about 40-50% cpu usage. ProRes is not an option as we are on PC.
What intermediate codec supports 10bit that we could use in our production workflow? Also, secondary to my questions is: Is the included Cineform codec that is now bundle din CC different than the one bundled with the free one from GoPro Studio? Is there a quality and/or performance difference? I remember reading somewhere that the built in Cineform in CC is faster to process/render than the external codec. Thoughts?
Trying to make the best decision for the team here. Anywhere we can benefit from increased performance and utilizing the hardware we have is of great value. P.S. Our rendered resolutions do not go beyond 1920x1080 for now.
Video Editing system:
Adobe CC
Windows 8 64-bit
32gb Ram
2x SSD 1x Raid10
GTX 970
Other workstations:
Premiere and AE CS6
Windows 7 64-bit
Lots of ram, Multi cpu
Quadro cards.
Thank you for any advice!

I have done some tests based on your recommendations of Lagarith. Visually I can see no difference from Cineform. My test results show that Cineform in YUV 10-Bit renders the video in 3 seconds. 20 seconds in RGB 12-bit. Lagarith no matter what setting runs around 20 seconds render time. The resulting file from Lagarith is 40% larger. Another interesting note is that the Cineform files are not playable on any system besides within After Effects or premiere on the Video editing station. That leads me to believe that the built in Cineform codec with CC is only within the CC software whereas the GoPro Studio installs a system codec.
Here are my thoughts so far:
Lagarith Strenghs:
Losless Compression
Playback on all machines
Quick install!
Lagarith Weaknesses:
30% larger files
Unusually choppy playback in VLC, but fine in Windows Media Player (Only on editing pc, on other workstations there is no issue strangely)
Largerly increased render/transcoding time
Cineform Strengths:
Smaller file size
Faster render (by a long shot)
Cineform Weakness:
Lossy compression (not a huge deal here, it is an excellent compression)
No playback external to Adobe software
Uses MOV wrapper

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Intermediate codec for Premiere on MAC

What if you want to edit different sources and still have realtime playback and no loss of quality... On PC you use Cineform but on Mac ? Pro-Res works realtime only on Final Cut.. So what do you suggest for workin in Premiere on a Mac (possibly free) and keep realtime playback and all the quality? We are talking of HD footage (XDCAM) and HDv footage. XDCAM plays realtime (though only in MP4 wrapper and not MOV wrapper) while HDV doesn't. I could obviously convert HDV to MP4 XDCAM or both to P2 (this also is read realtime).. but XDCAM will not keep all the quality. Can somebody suggest something?

This is a few weeks old so I hope you've found a good answer, but for the benefit of others you have a couple options. First you can actually get a copy of the Cineform codec for Mac buy purchasing a copy of Neoscene for $99 (from Cineform). This would be my recommendation. You other option is to download Blackmagic's codecs for Avid's DNxHD codec packs (both are free on their websites). You can use MPEG Streamclip to transcode your files after you capture, or if you're tapeless, after you copy your files over. But a couple QT updates ago, I lost any DNxHD 36 playback...don't know why, don't care to test it.
Your system's more than fine to editt HDV natively (not sure who'd want to though)...my suspicion is that unlike FCP, Adobe uses their Media Player instead of Quicktime as the native video player for the NLE and since Mac's core is Quicktime that results in some sort of performance issue. I'm only speculation but stuff plays back fine in QT outside of Adobe.
I've never gotten anything thing one way or the other from Adobe about it (no surprise there). I get the same crap performance on my dual-core MacBook Pro as I do on my new 3+Ghz Octomac. And I won't even get started on how completely worthless HDV is. I haven't edited an HDV file for over two years, I just got too many damn MPEG stream errors and didn't want to deal with it.
I'm hoping a future update will allow me to use QT as the native media player instead of Adobe. So in the end, I convert all my source video (no matter where it came from or in what format) to Cineform and leave my headaches at the door.

Playback of Apple Intermediate Codec has no video

Hi there,
My producer is having an issue opening some dailies that were sent to him. When he attempts to open the video clips the video is black but has audio. I have tried playing back the clips successfully on my work station and saw that they were utilizing the Apple Intermediate Codec for playback. I provided him with the Intermediate Codec but he is still unable to see any video. All the workstations available to him are running 10.4, could this be the issue? Any ideas would be welcome. Thanks!

You need something like Final Cut Pro or Final Cut Express to playback using Apple Intermediate Codec. Just having the codec won't work. Convert the video to something he can use, like h.264.

What is the best intermediate codec in Premiere CS5?

I have recently transitioned from using FinalCut to Premiere Pro CS5. Previously, I would exort to Apple prores from FinalCut as an intermediate codec for an uncompressed file. I was wondering if Adobe has an intermediate codec equivelant to Apple Prores, or if I should just use the prores codec in Adobe Premiere Pro ?????
help! thanks!

Got it. Uncompressed will obviously give you the best quality in the shortest amount of time and be the most flexible, but will occupy the most space. Depending on the duration of your edit, that could be a pretty sizable file. Depending on your needs and the platform you're using (Mac, from what I gather), there are some other options that are minimally or losslessly compressed.
On a PC, you could look into Lagarith or Ut Video Codec--both are free, but PC only. On a Mac, you might consider the Avid DNxHD QuickTime codecs, which are also free, and have the added benefit of being cross-platform. If you have FCP on your Mac, ProRes would be a viable choice, and is at least readable on a PC. Some folks use QuickTime PNG, since that would also be available cross-platform and will already be included once you've installed QuickTime.
You've got choices

Can't import HDV unless I set it for Apple Intermediate Codec

I cannot import my HDV video for the life of me. I see it on the screen, I hit capture "clip," and it appears to be capturing fine, but when I'm done, the clips in the browser show the red line crossing through them and say "offline" when I try to play them.
And when I hit "Capture Now," I don't get anything at all.
Actually, I do get a clip that is approximately 1 second long that captures the last second of my video. The literal last second. So I capture one second that I'm actually trying to stop the video on.
So I try Apple Intermediate Codec. It works PERFECT now!
Only thing is, I would like to use HDV instead, because isn't it better quality?
Plus it's just bugging me that I can't understand why I can't import on HDV settings. Why would it not capture a single frame except for the last second or two?
I guessing it's timecode related, but the timecode seems to be continuous. Scenes do change where the camera was turned off and on, but the timecode is continuous.
Thanks everyone for listening.

I am using Final Cut Pro 5.
I am probably using the latest version of Quicktime.
Thanks for any advice!!!!

Re user tip: How can I import a homemade DVD into iMovie for editing? - I've followed instructions so far so good, until I get to "You can then FILE/EXPORT USING QUICKTIME and choose Apple Intermediate Codec as your video codec. " How do I do that?

Re AppleMan 1958 excellent user tip: How can I import a homemade DVD into iMovie for editing? -
I've followed instructions with success until "You can then FILE/EXPORT USING QUICKTIME and choose Apple Intermediate Codec as your video codec. " How do I do that?
I installed MGEG Streamclip 193b8 and used their utility to install quicktimempeg2 and got a message stating it was successfully installed. (I'm on latest Maverick 10.9.2 on iMac) Then I dragged the VIDEO_TS file from my home DVD into the streamclip app. It asked which of 4 files to use, and I selected the first one. Streamclip played the video with the sound. so far so good. but now I cannot figure how to use quicktime player 10.3 to export this vob file out of streamclip.

Thank you for your quick reply and for clearing up my confusion. I'm exporting the first section now. I choose the smallest size, 3x4 but I'd prefer to go higher as this DVD was originally a VHS home movie. I'm wondering if after three conversions (VHS,->DVD->MPEG) the resolution will be so poor as to not support a larger size frame? If it can, what size should I select when I export?

I have converted m2ts files to .mov to edit in FCE (4.0.1) When I drag the clips into the timeline they need rendering, as much as a minute for a 30 sec. clip. Is this normal? I am using OS 10 . My easy setup is apple intermediate codec, 720p30. Any help

I have converted m2ts files to .mov in streamclip, for editing in fce 4.0.1. When I drag them into the fce timeline the clips need rendering, as much as a minute for a 30 second clip. Is this normal? My OS is 10.6.8. My easy setup in fce is apple intermediate codec 720p30. Any advice to avoid the rendereng would be helpful. Ann

To what codec, frame size & frame rate did you convert the files in Streamclip?
If it isn't AIC 720p30, you'll need to render.
x

I'm sorry, I have to convert the mov file. for use with fce and / or imovie11, better ProRes422 or intermediate codec?

I'm sorry, I have to convert the mov file. for use with fce and / or imovie11, better ProRes422 or intermediate codec?

FCE only used AIC for HD.
Al

Apple Intermediate Codec on QT Pro for PC

On a computer with Windows XP, will *QuickTime Pro for PC* play videos created in Final Cut with the *Apple Intermediate Codec*? And will it allow the user to convert them to other formats? I wish to recommend purchasing and downloading QuickTime Pro for PC to someone, but first need to know if it will play such videos. Does anyone know?

See your other post on the question.

Best codec for theatrical video?

I shot a stage performance on a Sony DVCam (not HD) and want to preserve the highest quality. Can I do better than just creating it as a large movie? I will be burning it in iDVD at the highest setting there, even if I have to split it into 2 disks.

Apple Video was the first codec from Apple, about 15 years ago. It's a 15 bit color codec that uses high data rates to get ok quality. Any of the DV ones are 720x480 for NTSC, so you'd lose your resolution. Apple Intermediate Codec is frequently used for HD editing, and will exceed the quality of your M2T file (though obviously it won't improve it). It may be a little demanding for some machines to play.
You might look at Motion Jpeg (A or B). Those are in the 2-4 MB/sec range, similar to DV (about 13 GB/hour), and at the highest quality should be as good as the MPEG-2 stream.
There are a few uncompressed options. The one you looked for is actually called None, but there's also Animation when set to millions of colors and highest quality, and there are video based uncompressed codec, such as Blackmagic (you would have to track down the components for that). Even Apple Component is a good codec, it makes the files half the size of the really uncompressed video codecs, but still looking good.
For what you want, I would try the Apple Intermediate one or the Motion JPEG ones. If you want to have as good quality but save some disk space, try H264 set to around 10 megabits/sec. That will far exceed the quality of the MPEG-2 stream, but wil take half the disk space. It will take a long time to compress.

Strange Problem capturing with Apple Intermediate Codec

We have the following problem:
We capture with a blackmagic decklink studio card (but I could reproduce the same problem using a MacBook Pro and the internal camera) with a MacPro and CS4. When capturing a live video feed (1280x720) with the apple intermediate codec (set to 29.97fps or to 59.94fps) everything seems to work just fine. But the resulting videoclips happen to be exactly ONE half of the total capture time. So if we capture in Premiere for about 1 our the clip is only 30 minutes long. If we capture for 10 sec., the clip will be 5 sec. long. It's not that the captured clips play with double the framerate. Half of the actual footage is missing.
Any suggestions?
By the way: we live in a PAL50Hz country, but our video signal that needs to be recorded comes in as a 60hz signal.

Hi,
Well I did some googling...and I would bet that the problem is the 50hz vs 60hz...
Unfortunately most if not all info I got that even BRUSHES on this subject with the sort of material you're dealing with is the opposite....where they are in 60cycle land with pal stuff....rather than in pal land dealing with 60hz ...
This is a lot of misc stuff but if you get a little bit of info from various posts and make some notes you might be able to get an idea how to solve the problem...
In particular I was looking at how frames are flagged and new frames are created later ...( toward very end of these posts - the last four or so )
Also noted some timecode reading that was "doubled"....so if your deck thought you had a specific length and then it read the timecode doubled, it would be your problem in a nutshell... have you checked the last frame you captured and compare that timecode to the overall length ??
anyway, here is a TON of stuff to breeze through...good luck...
THIS IS EDIUS RELATED..so keep in mind re: specific presets etc
Steve Sherrick
03-03-2008, 11:14 AM
Hi chaps,
Can I just confirm that the SDI/HDMI outputs are only live in build 14? I'm on 13 and going SDI - HDLINK - DELL24" gives me nothing. I'm in PAL land so have tried switching between 50hz and 59hz in camera.
So do I need build 14 or is it something else?
Cheers
Jeff Brown
#708
I'm in NTSC land but that same setup gives me picture just fine. Which Dell model is it? Is everything set up right from the camera side?
Jeff Brown
03-04-2008, 12:42 PM
Hi Steve,
I believe so. Set to Preview in th viewfinder settings, plugged in on preview mini sdi, cam set to 50hz..
Anything I'm missing?
Cheers
To counter this, the AJ-HD1400 offers two modes specifically for this called '25(SD)' and '25(HD)'. They output the 25fps signal with new timecode on a 50Hz carrier (only over SDI/Analogue the Firewire doesn't work in that mode).
It only works with 25fps material too, any other 'offspeed' rate has to be dealt with separately with the deck operating in 59/60 mode.
When operating in either of these 25 modes, the deck generates new 25fps timecode from the tape (although our tests have indicated that it is frame accurate of multiple playback passes).
Basically, Varicam, while a very nice idea, has only ever been properly designed to work in a 60Hz environment. It is pretty much a nightmare in 50Hz environments.
I think I may have found the cause of the problem.
For some reason when I started my project it had a Device Control profile set to 720p50 (rather than the 1080i50 that the deck is operating in).
What this seems to have done is double the frame number on any clip it encountered. So if I took a clip with in marked at 01:02:40:22 and dropped it in the Log and Capture tool the In Point that FCP decided to look for was 01:02:40:44 (which isn't going to exist on a 25fps timecode obviously).
Since you are using Pal
Go :
Generic OHCI HD 50hz -> 960x720 25p over 60p
Because if I am right you can't do Pal over 60hz but you can do PAL over 60P at 50hz.
( but I could be wrong)
But the other problem is that you are using an ntsc profile to capture pal recorded footage.
50 hz 960x720 over 60P yields a frame rate of 25 progressive
60 hz 960x720 59.94p yields a frame rate of 59.94 progressive which is far from your original footage . Mostly used for countries using natively ntsc
Neither myself, nor Ricksta (I don't think) are using NTSC-rate profiles.
The Preset setting I've been testing with is:
Generic OHCI HD 50Hz 960x720 25p over 60p
Indeed, I've just tried what Rick mentioned, and with the deck in 59.94Hz operating frequency, I can capture with all three 720p 59/60 input settings. This is technically wrong however, as the tape has been recorded at 60Hz. But like I said before, until Rick hears from the big geeks at Panasonic about this, I don't know what the real outcome of that difference in frequency is.
I've also tried a 50p over 60p project setting (as 720p50 is what I will be editing with in Avid) - but, predictably, this works but gives me double-speed footage. Which, while amusing, isn't a lot of help for me
A large part of the problem I'm facing here is to do with the Varicam format. It will record any framerate from 1-60fps. It has to operate and a system-frequency of 59.94Hz or 60Hz. That is what Rick and I are referring to. The limitation I face is that the Varicam format is not widely supported for PAL-based rates (25/50) as it requires communication with a deck operating in an NTSC-based system frequency (either 60Hz or 59.94Hz). This difference (between project/timeline framerates, and deck operating frequencies) is enough to ensure that IEEE1394/Firewire/OHCI capture is not possible in these modes in Final Cut Pro, Avid (any version) or any other NLE I have found.
We realise that the framerate and frequency we're working in has to be 50-based, and we're not making any mistakes in that respect.
So far Edius is the only NLE on the market, that I have been able to find, that supports Firewire capture from 60Hz DVCPro HD material in a 50Hz based framerate.
When you have captured the file in that project select a clip in the bin press alt+enter go to video info and tell me what the framerate is .
In a 50p over 60p project, when I capture footage shot 25p over 60 with the 'Constant Rate' capture profile I get a clip in the bin that is 50fps, but that plays at doubletime - which is what I'd expect.
I can change the framerate in the properties to 50fps, and it plays at the correct rate, but I'm not happy with the way to refactors the timing in that mode. It seems to create interpolated frames to fill the gaps, which provide an unusual appearance that I don't really like.
At present if I capture into 25p over 60p project, then import the resulting 25p footage into Avid, Avid doubles up the frames to produce 50fps material.
Some clarification here. The Varicam does indeed record at a constant 60fps. If the frame rate is set to 25fps for example it simply flags the active frames. This flag is carried in the vertical interval data. The reason for this system, is as suggested, it is very difficult to vary the speed of tape in a helical scan recording system. With the advent of solid state recording that Panasonic introduced in the AG-HVX200 it is now possible of course to only record the active (native) frames and this would be called 25pn for example.
Originally with the Varicam you used to use a device called a Frame Rate Converter. This box contained a hard drive with HD-SDI I/O. It would recognize the active "flagged" frames in the incoming signal and buffer them through the hard drive and then play them out at the correct frame rate.
More recently NLE's such as Avid, FCP and Edius have incorporated this flagged frame recognition and perform the extraction automatically. Thus when I tested a 25fps Varicam ingest on a 25 Frame timeline I am getting realtime playback. If I had recorded at 50fps and I placed that on a 25 frame timeline I would have very smooth half speed. Also the newer DVCPRO HD decks such as the AJ-HD1700 and AJ-HD1400 have the ability to decode "on-speed" frame rates such as 30fps, 25fps and 24fps.
The issue that Dylan is facing is that the NLE's will not accept a firewire input at 60Hz, they only accept it at 59.94, this is a .001 frequency difference and should be negligible. The other alternative is to ingest via HD-SDI via a Black Magic or AJA Kona card etc. These boards also support the variable frame rate function.
I hope that this helps clear things up a little.
Rick Haywood
Manager Broadcast & Display Systems
Panasonic New Zealand Ltd.
Further to what Rick is saying... The issues with most NLEs for PAL users is the disparity between the 59.94/60Hz operating frequency of the deck and the 50Hz based framerates the applications are working with in PAL framerates.
As for the constant 60fps - it is indeed recording 60 images per second to a tape, but as I said before, only a certain number are unique - only the flagged frames. In 25fps, the camera samples the sensor 25 times a second and records that frame to tape. Essentially you get frame 1 recorded for 2 frames, frame 2 recorded for the next three frames, frame 3 recorded for 2 frames, etc... The first frame with each unique image is 'flagged'. To rebuild the recorded framerate, only the flagged images are captured.
The big bonus of Edius for me here is that it can capture the PAL framerates from the 59.94Hz deck over Firewire directly. Something that Avid and FCP are unable to do.

Upgrade to Leopard seems to have broken Apple Intermediate Codec

I recently upgraded my Macbook Pro to Leopard (clean install). Before doing so I made a bootable backup on my firewire drive (which I still have).
Prior to the new install I was able to playback files encoded with Apple Intermediate Codec (And the Codec also appeared in the drop down menu of supported CCodecs for export as I have Quicktime Pro). Now on my machine if I playback an AI file I get audio with no video and the CODEC does not appear in the export options.
Is there a simple way to fix this?
I had a look in:
Macintosh HD/System/Library/QuickTime
on both my old backed up OS and the new leopard but could not see the CODEC in either location (is it stored elsewhere)?
Thanks for any help give,
Rob

on both my old backed up OS and the new leopard but could not see the CODEC in either location (is it stored elsewhere)?
Stored in the root library folder on mine -- i.e., not the System folder. "~/Library/QuickTime/AppleIntermediateCodec.component"

Capture HD with AVCHD apple intermediate codec

I have captured video from my Canon xha1 previously. Today I went to capture some video. I have my presets to HD with avchd apple intermediate codec. When I go to capture I receive the message "capture preset must have video or an audio digitizer set to capture. Please change the desired preset in the audio/video settings. I go back to system settings and the "audio capture" is not highlighted. I'm not sure if this is how I set the capture preset or if there is something else I am looking for. Any advise is greatly appreciated.

Hi Tom,
The camera settings are on HDV/DV. I haven't changed the setting, that I am aware of. I have tried a few easy set up settings. Last night I set to all formats and HDV. I was able to import video but not audio came through. I also tried HD with HDV or AVCD and received the message about needing a digitized audio preset. Today I received the message my deck could not be recognized. I loaded the footage into imove hd just to check my firewire. Video and audio both came through. Interestingly enough when I tried to import an imovie hd into fce, I received an error message. So my problem went from bad to worse. The other devices connected to my imac is an external hard drive and a printer. In the system profiler my camera is listed under the firewire device tree.
I am going to call Apple again tonight. I have only had this machine a month. So I am not very experienced with what can go wrong. But I guess I'm learning. By the way I have enjoyed your tutorial. I have learned a lot.
Thanks,
Jamie

How do I download and install MPEG-2 TS Codec for PE7.0 ?

Please help!
I recently bought a Hauppauge HD PVR 2 gaming edition and it captures video in the MPEG-2 TS format however I can't import these files into Adobe Premiere Elements 7.0 because I get the error message that the proper Codecs aren't installed.
I've done a google search in an attempt to figure it out and I downloaded something called G-Spot because another forum said it was the solution but I have no idea what it does or how it works so its basically useless to me. I've spent the past 2 hours trying to find a solution and I keep coming up with nothing.
I have very little knowledge about codecs and stuff like that so I need some expert step by step instructions on how to get these MPEG-2 TS files working in my PE7 program!
I appreciate any and all help, thanks in advance!
-Zomb-e

ZOMB-E
The gspot utility is an excellent utility for sorting out the type of issue that you present. There should not be any problem downloading, installing it, and using it.
Did you download from:
http://www.headbands.com/gspot/
Did you have any problems installing it. It should be straight forward.
If you have gotten its desktop icon, then double click that icon to get the following dialog. (If you get an intermediate dialog for "Run", click "Run". Of immediate importance is what is in the fields for Video Codec, Name, and Status and Audio Codec, Name, and Status. On some occasions gspot has been know to give an incomplete readout. Let us see if it will give us a full readout in your case.
For overall video properties, then the Media Info (tree view) video properties readout can be very valuable.
http://mediaarea.net/en/MediaInfo
Although codec is mentioned in your error message, the MediaInfo may give a broader insight into what is going on with your choice for capture format, including Video and audio compression, frame size, frame rate, aspect ratio, file extension, duration, interlaced or progressive, etc.
We will be watching for your follow up. The answers will be in your details.
Thanks.
ATR

I can only import HDV with Apple Intermediate Codec!!!!

Hello,
I want to get to the bottom of this. I have HDV film shot on a DV tape. I cannot import this HDV footage, it appears to be importing, but the moment I hit "escape" to stop capture, I realize nothing was actually importing. I usually end up with a second of captured footage, ironically, it's of the second that I stopped capture on. So I capture my last second.
Of course, if I change my setting to Apple Intermediate Codec, it works fine.
I'm using Final Cut Pro 5 on a G5 that hasn't been online in a while. Maybe I just need some 'updates?"
Or is this a Final Cut Pro 5 issue since it came out when HDV was relatively new on the scene?
Should I upgrade to Final Cut Pro 6, cut that make importing HDV easier for me?
This footage I don't mind converting to Intermediate Codec, but in the future I'd like to not have to do this.
Anyone know what causes this?
Thanks!

You should be able to do it fine in 5.0 as well as 5.1.
I have been capturing HDV since August of 2006, long before FCP 6. Make sure you use a camera that is supported, for HDV is not a standard the way DV is. It is MPEG 2 out of the box. So when you capture you are in for a bit of a ride editing HDV on FCP 5. It can be done, but you are better to take a page from Shane's book and capture to DVCPro HD instead. It takes up much more space, but you will have no headache editing and outputting later.
Hope this helps.
Matt

Intermediate codecs for 3D renderings + performance

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