Mixing Frame Rates and Creating Old Film Look?

Hello, I'm working with AVCHD footage which is 59.94 fps and have made my sequence settings at this frame rate. I've dragged in a few clips 23.98fps, 24fps, 25fps and 29.97fps, I'm attempting to give it a old film look so was going to render out at 14 fps as this is what 8mm is filmed at, I've never worked with mixed rates so any advice as to whether this is going to work? Should I have my sequence setting at my highest frame rate and the majority of the video is 59.94fps? would it work exporting at 14 or 16 fps?

I've never worked with mixed frame rates, but for the old film look, I like the Posterize Time effect set to 18 (one of the two standards for Super 8 that my camera had) and use Magic Bullet Misfire.

Similar Messages

How do I output the smoothest video when changing or mixing frame rates from the original footage?

I have been experimenting with various Media Encoder settings, and wondered if there was anything else I can try to get the smoothest video output possible, especially when changing frame rate and possibly resolution. For clarification, let me start from the beginning and explain what I'm doing and what I've tried so far. I'll try to be as brief as possible, but if I do go into too much detail, I apologize.
My original footage is AVCHD 1080p - 60fps. (my camera only does 60fps...specifically 59.94fps) We're not talking interlaced video here, I'm staying away from that. This is definitely full frame, progressive video at 60 frames (not fields) per second. My output will ultimately be for the web. I have been keeping my output codec (H.264) and bit-rate (VBR 2-pass, relatively high-bitrate) consistent, and have been trying numerous output options and even sequence settings to see what would yield the best results. I am using Premiere Pro CS5.5 along with Media Encoder. Here's what I've done and the results I've observed:
1. I created a sequence with 1080p - 59.94fps settings to match my original footage. I then output both 1080p and 720p versions at 59.94fps, and at 29.97fps. The 59.94fps output files looked absolutely great, as would be expected. Extremely smooth. The 29.97fps output files were generally smooth, but not near as smooth as the 59.94fps. This is expected since it's half the frame rate as my original footage. However, my question is this: What exactly is Media Encoder doing when "down converting" from 60p to 30p? From a technical stand point, is it dropping every other frame? I'm just curious to understand exactly what it does. I tried the Frame Blending option as well, and that only yielded a bit more blur to the images which wasn't desirable for any of the output files.
2. Just to see what would happen, I created a sequence with 1080p - 29.97 settings. I then output both 1080p and 720p versions at 29.97fps. The video was much more choppy in these cases, even with Frame Blending on. Now, I know not matching my sequence settings with my original media isn't ideal, but I again just want to understand why this yields less smooth video than the 29.97fps options above. Why does cutting the sequence settings frame rate in half from the original, then outputting the same frame rate as the sequence yield video that is not as smooth?
3. Next, I wanted to try mixing frame rates to see how Premiere and Media Encoder handled the footage and output files. Premiere handled it great, no issues there. However, I had some interesting things happen when I output the files. Here's what I did: I created a sequence with 1080p - 59.94fps to match my original footage. Then I took the same exact footage that was in my sequence, copied it in my project panel and interpreted it at both 23.976 and 29.97 fps, yielding slow motion video. The slow motion video looked great in Premiere, so I went ahead and just added it to my sequences, along with the original 59.94 footage. I also created separate sequences for the 29.97 and 23.976 footage respectively, each with matching sequence settings, then added a nested sequence to another original footage sequence (with 59.94fps sequence settings) to see which yielded the best results. Basically, I'm trying to output 59.94fps that match my original footage, but also throw in some slow motion footage at different framerates. I'll explain my results in a moment as they are a bit convoluted, however, here is my question: When mixing frame rates and trying to output the smoothest video, am I going about this the right way? I would assume you would use your sequence settings that match the original footage (which is what the majority of the footage will be), then bring in a nested sequence for the slow motion (as oppose to just dropping the slow motion video directly into my main sequence), and then output to the same frame rate of the majority of the footage, in this case 59.94fps. Is there a better workflow for this?
The results to #3 above were as follows. Initially, it looked like it didn't matter if I nested the slow motion sequence into my main sequence, or simply dropped the actual slow motion video into my original 59.94fps sequence. It seemed to produce smooth results either way. Frame Blending blurred the video a bit, but didn't seem to make much difference, and quite honestly I like the footage without Frame Blending in general. However, when I closed down Premiere, and opened the output files later (opening in Quicktime), the footage looked choppy. In fact, it would go from choppy to smooth and back, almost like it had an irregular cadence (don't know if I'm using "cadence" in the right context here). I would then open up Premiere again, import the output footage into my project panel, and play the footage in Premiere, and it would play back smooth again. Is this a Quicktime issue? I was playing 1080p 59.94fps files when this happened, so maybe it's just because it's a large file. Doesn't seem to have issues with the 720p files I created. But it sure threw me off with my testing because I then started second guessing the settings I was using. My iMac is the latest 2011 model with plenty of RAM, so I wouldn't think it's the computer. Thoughts?
4. Next, I noticed on ALL my output files (again, using the H.264 codec from Media Encoder) that the color of my video seemed to flatten quite a bit. It seems that the original footage has more contrast and saturation than the output files. I figured maybe this was just how it was, but when I re-imported the output files back into Premiere, they looked IDENTICAL to the original footage. And in Media Encoder's Source/Output windows, I don't see any difference there either. Is Quicktime again the culprit here, doing some odd things to the color of my videos?
5. Regarding Frame Blending, when is the best situation to enable this option in Media Encoder? I've read it is when mixing frame rates, but I honestly didn't see too much of a change except for a bit more blur, which I didn't care for.
6. Lastly, my conclusion is that 60fps yields the smoothest video, which is an obvious conclusion. However, I know that 60fps isn't the best or easiet frame rate for web delivery. It seems 30p is more the standard. Are there any integrated web players that would play 60fps? Can you get 60fps video on YouTube/Vimeo? If yes to any of these questions, can they do 720p and 1080p at 60fps?
Those are all my questions. I hope I am clear enough without being overly wordy and hopefully I didn't put too many questions into one post. Thanks in advance for any insight, I really appreciate it.

Did you ever figure out which output worked the best? I have the same original footage; trying to determine the best output settings to make a dvd for tv.
thanks!

Okay so i had an iphone 5. I backed it up on icloud. Then i got the new iphone 5s i restored ot from icloud from my previous iphone 5. Now everything works find execept now the games are slowy and drops the frame rate and look choppy. Please help.

Okay so i had an iphone 5. I backed it up on icloud. Then i got the new iphone 5s i restored ot from icloud from my previous iphone 5. Now everything works find execept now the games are slowy and drops the frame rate and look choppy. Then i restarted my iphone 5s as a new device downloaded the same apps even the ones optimized for ios 7 and the games still lag. And i just got my iphone 5s replace. The funny thing is. While im playing games and their running choppy and slow and if i take a snap shot inside the phone. They run smooth and HD but just for a few seconds and boom they go back to slow and choppy. Is it the ios 7 or the iphone 5s it self? Like i said this is my replacement iphone 5s because the other 5s did the same thing. And it was running slowly.

As far as I know you can't delete the primary email address for an iCloud account. It's assigned when the account is created. But your neighbor wouldn't have been able to get into your iCloud account without your Apple ID and password. Are you sure the account wasn't still on your phone when you gave it to him?
You could migrate a copy of your data to a new iCloud account but I would still be concerned that someone else was using my old account, which presumably still has your data in it.
I'm fairly certain that you're going to have to have iCloud support help you sort this one out as they may have the ability to make changes to an existing account that users can't. Make an appointment with the genius bar at a nearby Apple store and have them take a look at it. If necessary, they should be able to contact iCloud support for you.

How many frames should I cut out each second to get a old film look?

Hi,
What is the general rule of thumb (if their is one) of how many frames should be cut every second to achieve a choppy old film look? Or maybe it's not every second? What do you guys do?

you will get a more realistic look if you chop out frames manually
dump the playhead arbitrarily on the time line insert a cut nudge the playhead either i or 2 frames on and cut again discard the frames and either leave the black or butt the clips up for a "skip".
this really doesn't take long to do and is better than a predetermined sequence of chops made by a filter.
CGM do a free filter for aged film to add the hairs, navel lint, boogers etc . .

FCPX Mixed Frame Rates? 30fps AND 24fps in same project?

Just got done doing a multicam shoot for a large event where I had multiple people helping me out. We all shot at 1080p on a variety of Canon DSLR cameras and a Go Pro and a MiniDV Consumer Cam. I thought everyone got the memo to shoot at 30fps, and most everyone did, however one of my Canon cameras shot at 24fps. I know I've heard in the past mixing frame rates can cause issue in other programs, and I know FCPX can handle multiple frame rates, but what sort of trouble am I in for if I want to use footage from cameras using 30fps and a camera using 24fps in the same final product? Is the 24fps stuff going to choppy or weird if I use it in a 30fps sequence/project? My final deliverable at this point can be 30fps or 24fps, it is not stated and I want to make sure evrything looks good so what should I set my project settings for? Any ideas?

Ah - no - conforming simply resets the frame rate information. You should re-conform it back to 29.97...
Here's what I think you'll need to do. If the majority of your material is at 23.98, make your main sequence that. Cut everything at that 23.98 - you'll have to render any 29.97 material then, but when you've locked picture, look at the sections with 29.97 stuff and if it looks okay, just skip to making the DVD. If it doesn't, you'll have to insert a pulldown by exporting your sequence then bringing the quicktime back in, adding a pulldown with Shake ($500) or Nattress frame rate converter ($99) - OR try this - edit it to tape and a pulldown will be inserted, then recapture.
Once you have a 29.97 version of your clip, cut it into a 29.97 sequence and re-cut in the 29.97 material (now you won't need to render). Then export for your DVD.
Now - after all this, are you sure that your 30fps material is NOT 29.97 with a pulldown? Did you check this yet?
Patrick

Mixing frame rates in project?

I know this has been discussed a bit on other posts. But I couldn't quite find the angle/issue I'm working with. It's mainly a 24fps film, but I have to use 29.97fps archival material. The end output is 24fps. If I just edit the different frame rate clips as is on the timeline and output ... will my 29.97 be converted 'smoothly' into the final exported movie? Or will I have stuttering issues? And is there any advantage in converting all my 29.97fps to 24fps (individually) and then re-inserting them back into the film?
In a couple of shots I can see what looks like a slight fluttering in a subject moving back and forth horizontally (not particularly fast either).
I just attempted to do a test, to convert the 29.97 to 23.98. A puzzle: there seems no way to export out the clip at a different frame rate (if it's a 29.97 on a 29.97 timeline). I'm stuck with the 29.97.
If I try to modify the project with the 29.97 clip in it already - the modification won't allow me any choices beyond the 29.97.
If I create a NEW project at 23.98 fps, and then drop the 29.97 clip into it ... the clip CHANGES the project back to 29.97, and I'm still stuck with the same problem.
If I don't want to go to another app like Compressor, what might be the trick here?

I converted a clip from 29.97 to 23.98 using Compressor. I have to say, it looks better than what I'm getting from the 'mixed frame-rate' timeline in FCPX. Am I imagining this do you think? Smoother.

Cutting mixed frame rate (fps)?? -formerly: compatibilty of HDX900 & FCP? ?

Hi there,
I didn't hear much response from this group about this previous topic (thanks loyed or is it, scott?)... but I have a related question.
Has anyone cut a piece with mixed frame (vid) rate. For example, we are cutting some video shot at both 23.98 and 29.97. The sequence settings for 'editing time base' allows only one option. So I guess I could set 2 sequences and put one into the other. I don't want to nest though. Anyone deal with this?
I'm researching which is better for our project, either FCP or Avid. I want to be able to cut HD (shot with the HDX) in real time with mixed frame rate. Right now, I know Avid can handle the mixed frame rate. I have heard that with Avid Media Composer (software only), you may have to render often if your working off-line.
On the other hand, Apple says they don't officially support this camera's format. BUT I found someone who is using the one I use for the HVX, DVCPRO HD 720p and it is working for them (again thanks Scott).
I can't test either out yet. I don't have the footage, but will be working on a time crunch.
Any of your thought will be appreciated.
Best to you guys,
Sandhya
--forwarded note below from original post----
sandhya <[email protected]> wrote:
I am trying to determine the compatibility of Final Cut Pro and Panasonic's AJ-HDX900. We will shoot HD 720p mixed frame rate.

I know you said you don't want to nest sequences, which is a good thing, because (as of now) you can't nest sequences with different frame rates.
Capture the 23.98 footage without removing the pulldown, and you'll have the 23.98 look in a 29.97 file.

Mixed frame rate video clips on the same Blu-ray disc

Before I go into the detail, this actually isn’t an issue for me, but more of a finding the answer to a different question, so please bear with me.
To explain: I live in the UK, and I’m forever challenged by the different native video frame rates imposed by the PAL and NTSC standards. Every consumer camcorder I’ve ever seen only produces HD output (1920 x 1080) at either 50 fields/second interlaced, or 25 (sometimes 50) frames/second progressive. Some action cameras (Go Pro) I possess allow me to record at 30fps progressive, in full HD, which for fast movement is simply better. This in itself is not really a problem, but I use other software (all USA sourced) for video production whose best results are only visible when the finished HD output is 1080/60i.
Having mixed frame rate video is a real problem for the DVD standard, but no so much for Blu-ray. Indeed Adobe Encore neatly gets around this problem, so I can actually author a Blu-ray disc which contains full HD video clips that may be either 50i or 60i. Both types of video exist on the same disc, and when played back through a Blu-ray player/TV combination, the resultant video clips are shown correctly. Player and TV switch seamlessly to the correct setting to handle the video content. So, I have a solution to my problem, but at the same time, a question I can’t find an answer to, which is this:
Does the Blu-ray specification allow video clips of different native frame rates (i.e. 25fps and 30fps) assuming the resolution is the same, to co-exist on the same Blu-ray disc as a supported feature?
It works, but I can’t find one shred of information that says what I’m doing is supported.
Comments are most welcome.
Regards,
Steve

Stan Jones wrote:
Encore requires you to specify the project type as PAL or NTSC (whether you start it as Bluray or DVD), and does not allow you to change it later. Also, if you try to create a transcode type for PAL in an NTSC project you cannot get to the 25 fps setting (and therefore, I think, cannot do it).
But if you import a Bluray legal 25i file to an NTSC project, it is happily added.
DVD player conventional wisdom is that PAL players handle NTSC disks, but NTSC players do not generally handle PAL disks. I never quite understood why the TVs were not more of the issue. Do Bluray players even differentiate between PAL and NTSC?
Even if the player will handle PAL, the TV may well not do so - so there is more going on.
NTSC uses (generally) 60Hz systems whereas PAL is 50Hz hence the problem.
Do not try to mix standards as it will not be allowed - however, multiple frame rates are allowed as long as they are within spec for that TV standard.
They are best avoided though - otherwise you run a very real chance of serious asset truncation as the TV display switches between different resolutions & frame rates.

HD, Frame Rates and standards

Hi All,
I am sure I am trying to oversimplify a more complicated problem but i am hoping the answer is simple..
We are working on a project that will be delivered in HD And SD Formats and used in the UK (PAL).
Some of the assets we have received to use are in 29.97 frame rates and anything we create will be 25fps frame rates.
The question is what do we build a project in - ideally we would build all in 25fps rate as the end result will be this and won't cause any problems when producing final formats. However the existing assets that are 29.97fps are rostrum rotations so any drop frames or rate changes become obviously jerky straight away.
We could build all at 29.97fps but when we come to create SD formats we are going to end up using NTSC DVD settings which is a lesser resolution and may not play on certain DVD Players.. And if we transfer at the end to 25fps we are still going to see jerkiness?
Hope this makes sense and anyones help would be most appreciated? Am i missing something fundamental..
thanks in advance to all.. we have so much work to do and need to start it but if we start down the wrong route i fear we would have to start again!..
Cheers
Rob

you might try converting the 29.97 to 25 in compressor. drop in the 29.97 footage and select what you want it to be. turn frame controls on and select so source footage plays at 25 fps. It should remap the frame count into the new frame count. obviously your duration will change. if you use an audio pass thru setting, make sure you enable audio rather than pass through or your sync will be amiss.

Confusion about mixing frame rates......

what are these guys talking ....does this happen automatically that fcpx adjusts variable frame rates according to the project settings..?
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4505699
because it did not happen with me in a 23.98 timeline the clips with 25 fps did not sync......

Mudh Mark wrote:
in a 23.98 timeline the clips with 25 fps did not sync......
Not sure what you mean by sync. You mean the audio is out of sync?
I looked at the thread you linked to. The software should be able to handle mixed frame rates quite well.
Russ

Problems with Xml for mixed frame rate clips in 23.98 sequence

When an XML from an fcpx sequence which has mixed frame rate clips in 23.98 timeline is put through X2Pro the resulting AAF is incorrect as the non 23.98 clips are out of sync and have the wrong frame conversion applied. The same thing happens with the XML through Xto7 - the fcpxml appears not to be handling the frame rate conversion correctly in the XML process.
Anyone else had this or know of a workaround ( other than converting all media to 23.98 before editing obviously!)

What happened to us is that the DP shot all the footage in 59.94 mode. Some at 60p, and some at 24p WITHOUT pulldown. We tried capturing it again as 24p at 23.98 but it wouldn't come in that way. So we had to live with it at 59.94. And yes, we couldn't slip it on the timeline, we had to match back to the master clip and choose different in points until it came in right.
It was a horrible mess and we won't be hiring that DP again. I hope that re-capturing does it for you, it didn't for us.
Good Luck.
Shane

Mixing frame rates

Hi all. I will be doing a 3 or 4 camera project soon. I have two Canon tapeless AVCHD cameras, a Vixia HFM43 and an HFG10. I'm going to borrow two more cameras but don't know what kind they are yet. I was thinking of shooting the HFM43 in Canon's FXP mode with a 30 frame rate, and the HFG10 also in FXP mode but with a true 24 fps progressive, a frame rate that the other Canon is not capable of. I wanted the better frame rate because I am sometimes going to crop and zoom in on parts of the video taken with that camera, and the higher quality video it takes seems to make this possible without making the video too grainy. I have since googled a bit on mixing frame rates like this in one project, and people generally warn against it. Is this true? Is it better to stick to one frame rate?

Calm down, calm down . . . everything is OK.
Canon's 60i and 30p are both the same frame rate . . . 30fps. (Ignore the 29.97 as it is the daft American system and can be regarded as 30fps)
It's just that the 60i has 2 interlaced fields (don't worry about it!) per frame whereas 30p has 2 identical fields (equivalent to one field) per frame.
If you are interested you can read about interlaced and progressive frames in Wikipedia!
Suffice it to reiterate, they are both 30fps.
It would make sense in future to have all cameras set to the same although it shouldn't make any difference.
NOTE: Over the past few years a number of cameras have included a "60p" setting (note the "p").
This is 60fps and shouldn't be mixed with 60i or 30p

Creating a film look in Final Cut Pro 3

I have finished editing my short in and some of the images are too harsh; please advise me on how I can get a more film like look. I shot the short on a Sony PD-150 and edited it on Final Cut Pro 3 using a G4 and running OS X. 2.6
A friend suggested using a filter like Magic Bullet, which doesn't work on OS X. 2.6. Someone else suggested rendering it in 30 frames per second but don't know how to do that in FCP.
G4 Mac OS X (10.2.x)

You're not going to be able to make magic happen with DV footage on final cut 3. Film has a generally softer and murkier look than video, so try bringing down the harsher higlights and desaturing colors somewhat. You're just going to have to play arround with the the filters and color corrector, and eyeball it on a broadcast monitor.
As far as frame rate is concerned, there's nothing you can do. DV is 29.97fps, film is 24fps. Simply changing the framerate (especially to 30) won't make it look more film like. 24 fps pulldown needs to happen in camera to achieve such an effect.
If you're interested in something like Magic Bullet (which you'll have far better luck with), you'll have to find someone who has it.
Honestly, my advice would be to worry about your film looking good more than worry about your film looking like film.

Frame Rate and Codec issues in Premiere CC exports

Here is the breakdown.
My timeline is...
A 24fps HD timeline in a Cineform Codec
My first SD Export was...
Quicktime / NTSC DV 24p preset
Result...
Looks interlaced and squshed in QT Player and claims the file is 29.97fps
Looks interlaced but not squished in Windows Media Player unsure what frame rate it thinks it is.
Looks decent in my Premiere timeline and claims it is indeed 23.97fps
2nd Export I tried HD...Quicktime / HD 720p 24fps preset but changed aspect to 1920x1080 with Animation codec
Result... HD footage sounds fine recognizes the images in the clip if you click through it in the source monitor, but wen rendered from yello to green in the timeline, the video just reads Media Pending.
Really need help with this ASAP. On a harsh deadline. CC is proving to be more truoble that it was worth upgrading from CS4.

We are sending the most uncompressed SD version in 23.97fps for another person to author on their end with the compression that will accomodate the other tracks on the disc and get the best quality. We were told to send a QT file at 23.97 since the original file was a 24.0 fps project (nativly shot on 35mm film) BUT the file we exported at 23.97 to send as a test read as 29.97 outside of Premiere. If I can solve the annomally with the frame rate changing between Premiere and a QT Player window I will be a happy camper. Has anyone had issues with frame rates being messed up on export and not exporting as the setting you set it on?
We are not authoring the final disc at our end.

Slow motion and frame rate and shutter speed

I have two cameras that record 60i and three that use 30p. Neither of the 60i cameras has a 30p option (one has a pf30). If I understand how FCPx handles this, if I drop both frame rates into a project, I get 30p out, correct? In effect de-interlacing the 60i footage to 30p. Is it best to import the 30p footage first to set that frame rate so that the 60i gets rendered to 30p?
We're producing a fishing DVD so good quality motion footage is important. This is an instructional DVD so I will be using some retiming to slow footage down to illustrate key points in the instruction.
I've read a lot of stuff on 1080i 60i vs. pf30 vs.30p vs. 24fps and benefits of using 720p vs. 1080i. Also looked at information on slow vs. fast shutter speeds.
So, the bottom line to get the best motion results for the DVD, I should be shooting at best bit rate possible, use 1080i 60i or 30p depending on the camera and let FCPx set everything to 30p. Correct?

For the 1080/60i media, it is best to have FCPX conform it to 30p (29.97p). [30p is a real timing: 30 exact frames per second, but it is not broadcast compliant. 29.97 is quite often simply referred to as 30, just for simplicity and/or laziness. The final decision for which to use rests with you. Also note, like "30 fps", 60 more often refers to 59.94 fps... for the same reasons.]
As for your target being DVD: DVD is always 480 lines whether it is anamorphic (16:9) or standard 4:3. If you would like to have "enhanced" slow motion, my recommendation would be to shoot in 720/60p (which is genuinely progressive "60" frames per second) and will give a slightly better edge on slow motion effects (retiming). That said, FCPX retiming is usually quite good no matter what the frame rate (frame blending recommended over optical flow [which tends to give a "morphing" effect when pushed too far].) 1280x720 frame size will give you plenty of downsampling resolution for DVD as well. [I *believe* that FCPX will use all of the 60fps available from the original video in retiming, even if the frame rate of the project is slower than the original media; so, 720/60p conformed to a 30p project and retimed to 50% will use every frame of the 60p slowed down by half... (somebody correct me if I'm wrong!)]
Best bitrate is also an important feature, but that is not due to the choice of format as much as that provided by the camera itself. Bitrates out of the camera may be relative to the frame size (they are in my consumer camcorders). A common consumer grade camcorder will top out at a bitrate (for 1080) somewhere between 17.5 and 22.5 Mbps, whereas an HD capable DSLR will usually top out at (easily) *twice* as much (45Mbps average from my Canon T4i) or more. Furthermore, the DVD standard imposes framerate restrictions (max is somewhere between 5 and 8Mbps -- the software that creates your DVDs will usually transcode for best bitrate, so not something you really need to bother with - just set the transcoder to best possible quality and provide it with the best quality video that's reasonable.) Whichever camera provides the highest bitrate should be your "main" camera.
As you may have discovered: another factor for a quality video regardless of camera is shutter speed. If you set the shutter speed too high (faster than twice the frame rate) then you will have "stuttering" issues (there will be "gaps" from still frame to still frame). Keep the shutter speed at the same or no more than twice the frame rate: e.g., for 1080/30p (target) the shutter speed should never be more than 1/60th of a second (I'll use 1/30th, 1/40th, or 1/50th usually). I haven't shot a lot of 720/60p, but I think I would still keep the shutter speed at between 1/60th and 1/120th exclusively [that is -- I wouldn't go as high as 1/120th or greater... but that's me... you should experiment for best results for you. If this creates exposure issues, then consider neutral density filters or circular polarizing filters to help bring scenes into exposure range (via aperture or iso or both.)
HTH
Good luck! Have a good shoot!

Mixing Frame Rates and Creating Old Film Look?

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