Motion judder

Anyone out there experiencing the same? I've just bought a Samsung LA32A550 (5 series LCD) to go with my Apple TV. But watching my iTunes downloaded Alien vs Predator Requiem (HD version) the motion judder made the film unbearable to watch. I was so impressed with the Apple TV when I fired it up and synched my music and photo files. And downloading movies is a joy. But the motion judder slapped me back down to earth.
I was wondering whether it's a clash of MHz - Samsung is 60MHz but I don't know what Apple TV is. In the 1080p mode there's no adjustment. The csreen is fine with DVD which points to the problem being the Apple TV or its compatibility with the Samsumg. Help me somebody.

Have you seen the same movie on DVD to say it's definitely related to AppleTV playback?
Juddery motion can be due to a number of things:
- usually happens with fast pans when you become aware of unnatural motion effects
- older movies/shows tended to have far slower pans than newer ones
- poor encoding of the source video for AppleTv could be responsible
- too complex encoding of source material for AppleTv could be responsible (it struggles to keep up with frame creation), but seems unlikely
- network not keeping up for streaming leads to juddery motion (not here)
- TV processing/display not capable of reproducing smooth motion
If you're happy with playback from DVD and haven't noticed big issues then I suspect it's AppleTv and the file encoding. Out of interest, how are you connecting your DVD player and is it an upscaler or not?
I watched Disney's Enchanted in HD last night on the 1080p setting and there's quite a lot of fast movement/action in that in places and I didn't really notice many motion artefacts, and my Panasonic plasma is not the best when it comes to motion judder in panning shots.
I don't know either what refresh rate the 1080p is, but given that AppleTV cannot officially decode any higher than 720p at 24fps (which is then upscaled to 1080p rather than being 1080p source resolution), it could be a case of a movie being 24fps causing issues played back at 50Hz or 60Hz via your Tv, whereas your PAL DVDs are usually encoded at 25fps.
AC

Similar Messages

Uh-oh: the motion judder issue again

I recently produced a composition in AE CS5 which comprised still images traversing the screen as if a camera was constantly tracking left to right. The comp was 25 fps PAL widescreen square pixels.
The judder - both in ram preview and rendered output caused my client to complain. (This was on a 40' screen, but very noticeable on my comp monitor). It was not a consistent jarring - as if it was wrong field order or an interlacing problem, nor is it caused by memory bottlenecks or disk speed.
This was the first comp I had produced on CS5, and do not recall judder as pronounced as this on CS4 or 7.
I have subsequently tried to rebuild the project using different formats, frame rates, output settings and tracking speeds, all to no avail. Motion blur increases the problem.
I know that there has been some detailed and extremely valuable discussion about the probable causes of judder on this forum, but I can't seem to corrolate those issues with my own experience.
I have posted an 11 sec single image track at www.jontysexton.co.uk/motion/judder.wmv
I'd appreciate feedback from one of you AE gurus. Thanks.

Hi TimeRamapper.
When I say it's academic, what I mean is that it is often out of my control. It depends whether I am producing a DVD for general distribution or creating a video piece for conference play-in. If the latter, the production company will tell me what delivery means they want. It may be laid off onto PAL DVcam , Quicktime or wmv. Sometimes the DVcam is captured on a media server and played into the conferenceI from that.
I have been producing graphic-based conference openers since around 2000, and have not been aware of such pronounced juddering - unless it's caused by interlace flicker or field reversal. I've certainly never had a client complain before!
It's not just in the subsequent playback that it becomes apparent. It is visible in AE ram preview (and Premiere Pro if I create a motion path on a still photograph). I have increased frame rate to 50 fps but that does not eliminate the problem - or reduce it sufficiently to be acceptable.
My drives are 7200 Raid 0 and the 12MB ram is hardly being put under pressure during ram preview.

Motion Judder in MAC 10,1,85,3

Hello.
I was attempting to watch the LIVE F1 Grand Prix feed from the BBC and the player was jumping around like it was cooking popcorn
Audio was fine but the picture was unwatchable.
When I went back to the site the video ran for a little while (a replay not live) so I thought it was a problem on site.
after discussing it with people on site I find ..It is not.
Now, no video from them plays at all.Tried it on Safari same thing.
I made no changes or anything to my system..
Is there a place I can get the older v 10,1,53
I worked great
Info as follows
MacBook Pro OS 10.6.4
Firefox 3.6.11
website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/9116792.stm
Sorry I can't give you all the tech stuff like 32/64bit or whatever that is..I'm not a computer person
Thanks for any attention given
Jon

I find that in this exact configuration that Firefox simply crashes with that crash window. I have Disabled ALL extensions and plugins, Firefox works. Then I install ONLY Flash 10.1.85.3 and Firefox 3.6.12 crashes, running on Windows 7.

Duplicate/missing frames in IMovie '11 ver. 9.0.4

Hi,
When I import Canon 7D HD .MOV files (H.264 MP4, 1920x1280, 29.97 fps) into IMovie '11, I noticed that some frames are duplicated (probably to make up for missing frames), which results in motion "judder" when playing the clip in the main project window. This is especially noticeable when panning a shot, and appears to happen at every 3.5 sec of video.
It does not matter if video optimization (large or original) is turned on or off, when importing the clip. (I usually use original) Audio track remains unaffected.
Inevitably, this judder/stuttering is passed on to any form of video export, be it MP4 ,DV, MOV, etc., which ruins final product.
What's really strange is that the optimized clip that's created by IMovie and stored in the events folder, plays smoothly in Quicktime, no missing or duplicated frames. So it is something in IMovie's UI that's creating this problem. This should not happen at all - what is shown in IMovie's playback window should match the original or optimized video, frame for frame.
Is there anything I am missing as far as settings, or is something not right on my system? And yes, I did send Apple a bug report.
I am doing this work on a late 2007 17" 2.67 GHZ Intel Core Duo Macbook Pro, 4GB ram, Mac OS X 10.6.8 (slow, but steady)
Thanks for your input.

Hi! I ran into same problem!
I have iMovie version 11 9.0.4 (1634). Running on OSX Lion, 13" Macbook Pro Mid 2010 C2D 2.4GHz.
I used Samsung Galaxy S II to capture a small video of GT5 replay from LCD tv in 1080p (PAL, 25Hz) mpeg4 format. No matter what export settings I use the exported video file from iMovie has a several duplicate frames. I took the video file into Avidemux and stepped it through from frame to frame. Duplicate frames are:
26,27
42,43
104,105
120,121
137,138
153,154
and so on.... that is the reason for judder/jerky movement. Other programs like Blender (or Openshot movie editor on Linux) produced a nice and smooth video.
So I looked more into this problem and I noticed that when importing a video file into iMovie, DO NOT use the "optimize video" option. If I import my short movie into iMovie without doing the optimizing part, editing seems to be a bit slower but the exported video file plays smoothly. I couldn't find any duplicate frames. After using the "optimize full original size" option and then re-exporting the movie it was full of duplicate frames again...
I'm not sure what the optimizing does (using a faster intermediate codec/format?) but for this simple test it certainly ruins exported movies...
Not sure if this is any help to you, but you might want to try it...

LED 240hz vs Plasma 600hz for BluRay

Ive been debating for a long time in which one to buy. The LED is a Samsung and the Plasma is between the Panasonic and Samsung. I guess my biggest concern was sports. My buddy has a Plasma and it is incredible to watch sports and bluray. I was just curious if the 240 LED would be comparable. And if it helps no gaming will be done on this TV. I have a 32" lcd samsung for gaming and I also have an LG 42" with 120HZ refresh rate in my room.

BValentim wrote:
Ive been debating for a long time in which one to buy. The LED is a Samsung and the Plasma is between the Panasonic and Samsung. I guess my biggest concern was sports. My buddy has a Plasma and it is incredible to watch sports and bluray. I was just curious if the 240 LED would be comparable. And if it helps no gaming will be done on this TV. I have a 32" lcd samsung for gaming and I also have an LG 42" with 120HZ refresh rate in my room.
Ignore refresh rates higher than 120 Hz for 2D and 240 Hz for 3D - Anything higher is 100% marketing gimmickry.
Even 120 Hz is barely beneficial - it is ONLY slightly beneficial for watching film content as it is evenly divisible by 24 frames/sec. 95% of the population won't even notice the slight motion judder when showing a 24 fps film on a 60 Hz display. (Maybe that goes down to 80% if you view a 60 and a 120 side-by-side).
120 Hz has no benefit whatsoever for sports. All sports content I know of is 30 or 60 fps progressive scan, so displays cleanly on a 60 Hz display.
There is no 120 Hz content in existence with the exception of 3D content. 240Hz is only potentially beneficial for 3D because it is evenly divisible by 48 (24*2). (Even then, it may prove not to be beneficial at all)
*disclaimer* I am not now, nor have I ever been, an employee of Best Buy, Geek Squad, nor of any of their affiliate, parent, or subsidiary companies.

120 versus 240hz versus HD and other technical questions

We do not and will not TV cable. But we do watch movies via DVD. We do want to upgrade to Blue Ray. LED / 3D are out of price range so it's going to be an LCD.We already know we want 1080.
Can anyone tell me what I should be looking for in a new TV? There a lots of technical data.
What are the benefits for 120 vs 240 vs 600Hz? Do we need speed for movies?Plasmas have faster refresh rate but they are a dying breed it appears. Shouldwe consider a plasma?
We have a box for the Wii connection. Do we need more than 2 HDMI connections?
Thanks for any help you can provide.
Dan
Solved!
Go to Solution.

Basically - Most DVD/Blu-Ray content is 24 frames per second. The only benefit of 120 Hz over 60 for non-3D is that 24 divides evenly into 120, but no 60, so can cause slight motion judder artifacts when displaying 24 fps content on a 60 Hz display. Most people won't notice this even in a side-by-side test. 3D basically doubles framerate requirements - so slight benefit of 240 over 120 for 3D (48 doesn't divide evenly into 120), but no benefit of 240 over 120 for non-3D.
There is no content in existence with framerates over 60 Hz.
*disclaimer* I am not now, nor have I ever been, an employee of Best Buy, Geek Squad, nor of any of their affiliate, parent, or subsidiary companies.

Quicktime conversion

Feel a little silly raising this here, QT conversions are something I thought I knew enough about not to need advice, indeed I've often given it, but I've had some quite strange results exporting my latest project and wondered if any one had any comments on my observations.
My projects are AIC 1440 x 1080, my main video source is a sony SR8 (AVCHD 1440 x 1080i) but I invariably add a number of stills, titles and sometimes even video from other sources. My output is aimed at my tv and web gallery for general viewing over the internet, but I maintain my projects intact for someday when I may want a higher quality delivery format.
As such I have generally found the easiest method with reasonable results has been to export from FCE as a quicktime movie and import that into imovie 08 which will handle all the export formats and resolutions I require as well as undertake the uploads to my web gallery. I have exported numerous projects in this way and been reasonably happy with them in the past.
However I was dissatisfied with my latest 960 x 540 h264 export from imovie in that large areas of similar colouring were not satisfactory (sky, walls, water etc) and there was also too much motion judder introduced. (I've come to expect a little motion judder with panned shots and h264, but this was above my expected level)
Resulting from my dissatisfaction I tried a few different export techniques from both FCE and imovie, but bare in mind I've tested various export options on many occasions before and have not seen the results I'm about to describe.
I'm not as worried about my exports for my web gallery as I am about my export for the tv, so the settings I experimented with were made with this in mind. I tried exporting as a MOV with h264 encoding, as an MPEG4 with h264 encoding and exporting using the tv preset and with the exception of the preset I tried both 720p and 540p (I'm working with 25 fps). I was surprised that in every instance I found that imovie provided a better output and indeed the best output was provided by the simple export to movie (540p) from imovie (which I don't believe has a comparable setting in FCE.
To add to what I thought was already very strange, I noticed that settings appeared to be getting stuck, I'm not so sure I can explain this very well but I'll try.
During one test, which I think was an export to MOV, I checked the de-interlace source video and ended up with de-interlacing artefacts in the export that had not been there when I exported using the same settings but without checking the de-interlace option. I didn't actually think there was very much odd about this until I unchecked the de-interlace option and exported again and the artefacts remained.
To summarise:
Export 1 - de-interlace unchecked, no artefacts in export.
Export 2 - de-interlace checked (other settings = the same), artefacts noticeable.
Export 3 - de-interlace unchecked (other settings = the same), artefacts noticeable.
I also noticed that if I made an export (call it Export A) and noted the settings and then made a few changes for subsequent exports that if I returned my settings to those I had used for export A and exported again, that the new export was significantly different to the original export A.
I don't believe these things should be happening, anyone noticed anything similar or know of anything that might be causing this.

I've tried with to source formats; the first was beta sp transferred to mini dv which I captured from my deck. the other was 24p mini dv captured from my deck.
settings: VIDEO: vid. comp= h.264; qual = High; key frame = 24; frame reordering = yes; encoding mode = multipass AUDIO: format = uncompressed; sample rate = 44.1; sample size = 16; channel = 2
I need to convert to a normal quicktime file and use in a premiere project. I've done it several times before but now something's weird.

UK DVD for use in USA

I've got a UK PAL system. I've produced a PAL video in PPro, output to Encore and made a All regions PAL DVD.
Now the client wants a version for the USA.
So: I can start a new Encore project in NTSC and import the Ppro PAL video.
It "appears" to work.
But somewhere along the line it must be converting it to 29.7fps.
So will the programme end up jumpy when played on an NTSC dvd player?
If so, is there any other way round this?
Many thanks, Linda

Linda.
It's quite possible the playback will be jumpy or lumpy.
You are basically adding frames, and this may cause motion judder.
The best solution I have found is to do the conversion from the original PAL AVI file before importing it into Encore.
I always use DV Film Atlantis for this, as it consistently produces by far & away the finest quality I have ever seen. It's cheap too - $200 - and will work from all source files, Quicktimes or AVI.
The problem with most of the "conversion" methods is that they use either frame blending or frame skipping, or combinations of the above.
See http://dvfilm.com/atlantis/compare.htm for full details.
NB - this requires Quicktime 7.1.6 - no later.

NTSC-PAL Conversion???

I'm trying to find out a way of converting 1080i(29.97) to 1080i50 without getting motion judder. Does anyone know how?

I get very good results using compressors advanced mode, I convert HDV 1080i60 to HDV 1080i50 and turn on the advanced motion controls.
It takes a very, very, very long time - hours per minute kind of long time - but the end result looks like it was shot natively at 1080i50 for most movement. I found natresses stuff was very quick, and delivered an excellent result (it blends at a field level) but still had motion strobing on slow smooth pans - it is worth having that plugin in your toolkit though, just anyway.
If you need it done well, this side of Christmas, you are going to have to take it somewhere.
Test a small clip, like 10 seconds, and work from there.

De-interlace 1080i 50

Hi there,
I have a HDV camcorder and record in 1080i and have been for quite some time, as I know the quality is very high on tape driven camcorders..
The only problem I have is I would like to watch the footage (family videos etc.) back on a 1080 24p TV which is connected as a second display.
The footage is interlaced so when any sort of panning or pretty much any movement occurs I get lines all over the place.
Question is. How can I deinterlace the video without loosing all of the quality so I can:-
a) watch the films back on the tv without the lines and
b) make it the best possible quality for future editing.
I have seen that fieldskit is a fantastic plugin to acheive this but it is not an option with my current budget.
I have also tried importing the file and running Effect / Blur & Sharpen / Reduce Interlace Flicker at 1.6.
The problem I had with the above is that on import of the file (1440x1080) it became immediately distorted as if it had been squashed on the horizontal axis.
Many Thanks for you help
Martin

In my opinion, converting your footage to 24p is a mistake, except in VERY special circumstances. If it's your intention to store the material in the best way possible for future editing/processing, deinterlacing and converting frame rates will notably diminish the quality of your footage before you've even started.
The fact that your TV is capable of 24p isn't really the issue. That feature is designed to support films that were shot in 24p: ie on film.
Your footage is presumably shot at 25fps or 29.97fps interlaced (?) which your TV can also handle natively. As your playback machine is a computer, you'll note that it is probably NOT capable of running at 24p, or any other refresh rate that's a multiple of 24 (like 48Hz or 96Hz). That means the mismatch between your computer's refresh rate and the TV's will introduce some motion defects.
Converting from 25/50i or any other frame rate to 24p will require frame blending, which will introduce motion artifacts and softening. If you do it without frame blending, you'll get a noticeable kink in the motion once per second as one frame or more is removed. As mentioned above, non-interlaced footage will also exhibit motion "judder", particularly during fast motion or horizontal camera movement. Good cinematographers know how to hide motion judder, by keeping camera movement speed very slow, and distracting the audience when the camera needs to move faster. (Take a look at an old episode of MASH, for example, and note the first shot of almost every episode includes a pan across the opening scene, like the compound or the Officer's Club. Then note that the camera always follows a moving target, like a walking person or a jeep or a truck, until it hits it's target. This is done on purpose - the moving target distracts you enough to hide the judder caused by a rapidly moving camera, but still manages to set the scene reasonably quickly.)
So, the point is, unless you're extremely conscious about how to use your camera within the restrictions of a non-interlaced medium, why throw away all that beautiful temporal information that interlaced footage provides?
If you want to provide a lot more specifics about your source footage and playback requirements, it will be a lot easier to make stronger suggestions about what you are trying to achieve. The fact that you're seeing interlace artifacts on your playback probably has more to do with your hardware than your software.

Purchased Samsung 63 plasma 8000 series ghosting issues

I purchased a 63 Samsung 3D plasma 8000 series in 2/10 and the picture is fantastic, but I seem to be having ghosting issues when people move on the screen or with fast moving scenes. I had a pioneer 50 plasma that was 5 years old that did not have this problem with people only blurring with fast moving scenes like sports. The people and scenes are clear it's just the edges seem to be blurring or ghosting. Is this normal or is there something I can adjust? It is really irritating to me. I thought this TV was supposed to be an improvement with blurring or ghosting but at present it seems to be worse. Please advise.
Solved!
Go to Solution.

cd22 wrote:
what was it's original function.
Motion Judder or Blur Reduction (named differently depending on brands of TV) is used to help compensate for the natural blur some content has. Unless you are watching something in its default recording such as 24p you will have at least some motion blur. Once again this is blur that is in the content not something plasmas technically have like LCD's are susceptible to.
So what does it do or supposed to do:
A standard video signal is actually a series of still images, flashed on screen so quickly that we believe we are watching a moving image. The typical frame rate used in North America is 60 frames per second (60Hz) meaning that a TV would display 60 individual still images every second. Sub-field drive is the method used to flash the individual image elements (dots) on a plasma panel. For each frame displayed on the TV the Sub-field drive flashes the dots 10 times or more, meaning that the dots are flashing 600 times per second (600Hz) or more. (Example: 60 frames per second x 10 sub-fields = 600 flashes per second). TV's will try to compensate content judder by inserting more sub-fields into the image. However it tends to have mixed results. Sometimes it works sometimes it completely fails and sometimes it overcompensates.
I personally have a Panasonic plasma and I keep the blur reduction off.

Need Expert Opinion on 3D LED TVs

Hi, I'm a movie critic for a local magazine in the city. My new assignment is to critique about 50 movies in a two week period, all 3D movies. I've heard about the amount of strain on the eyes from long sessions. Are there any 3D LED TV's that cause little to no strain on the eyes?

theres a bit of misinformation here. In the traditional sense, yes, the Cinema 3D TV's are technically Full HD (1080p resolution), but you are still only seeing 540 lines of resolution for each eye. Yes, all of the pixels are active simultaneously, but the image you are seeing for each eye doesn't even meet "Enhanced Definition" standards, let alone HD standards. Active shutter 3D, on the other hand, Outputs 1080p Resolution to each eye. Active shutter technology gives a significant improvement to the image detail.
The only benefit of passive shutter 3D technology is the cost of the glasses. When compared to a Plasma TV however, which are not only cheaper, but provide better 3d performance (Active Shutter, less crosstalk, no motion issues, better PQ, higher resolution, etc.), you'll find that it's a much better deal. You'll probably even save money, and end up with greater performance for both 2D and 3D.
As a movie critic, I assume you need to be giving people the best/most accurate review possible. This means moving up to a larger size television (55" at the very smallest), and picking up a set with at least decent quality. I've watched 3D on 90% of the 2012 3D televisions on the market, and you'll find that some of it comes down to personal preference and changing settings within the television to adjust comfort level. When it comes to 3D, larger is better, and you will find your self wishing you picked up a larger TV. (With a 65VT30, I still find myself edging the couch much closer to the TV)
Quick question, are these reviews focused more on the movie content? or picture quality/3D quality? The answer to those questions will give the best indication on which TV is the best option for you.
Out of all of the TV's I've watched, I've found the Panasonic plasma TV's to have the least amount of fatigue (aside from the inferior passive shutter LG LED TV's). You can reduce fatigue even further by making adjustments to the 3D depth. Active shutter LED TV's will be slightly more fatiguing due to flicker and motion judder (with the exception of top of the line models from Samsung or Sony). Samsung plasmas are slightly more fatiguing than the panasonics, but the difference is subtle. My TV recommendation would be a Panasonic 60ST30, which has one of the best price/performance ratios of any 2012 TV. If you insist on getting an LED TV, I would recommend a UN60D8000, which will give you the best 3D performance (on par with or greater than plasma 3D performance), but you'll find yourself in a much higher price bracket (money better spent towards a PN64D8000 or 65GT30/VT30 plasma TV).
Again, some of what I've said is subjective, but i've given my opinion. If you can narrow it down to a couple of models, then head into your local best buy and pick your favorite.

FCP7 - Slow Motion 'jump / judder'

when I do slow motion clips (modify > change speed) and reduce to about 50/60% I get random choppiness in the playback. I have rendered the sequence that I do it with but playback still appears the same. Is there a known issue with this? As I say, it's as though it jumps a couple of frames randomly when it's playing back slowly.
I've imported Apple Pro Res. Film was shot in PAL 1080i50i and imported as Pro Res 25fps.
Thanks

SLow motion with 25p and 24p footage is alway jittery, at least with FCP. Best to take it into Motion and use the speed controls in there to make good smooth slow motion. Or use After Effects, or Twistor plugin for AE.
Shane

Bit of a strange one.... HD Movies "Judder" when streaming to ATV2

Bit of a strange one.... all my HD Movies since the latest ATV2 update "Judder" when streaming.
It's very hard to describe but whenever there is a fast Zoom or Pan shot the image flickers for around half a second. It seems to happen every 20 seconds or so, this has only been the case since the latest update of ATV2.
I purchased Tron Legacy (HD) from the iTunes store and it occurs when playing that movie. It also happens on all my self generated HD contect.
Strangely it does not occur when streaming to my 1st Gen Apple TV, which makes me think it has nothing to do with my Home Network setup, as they are both connected via Ethernet cables.
There is only a problem with HD Streaming and ATV2.
Any assistance would be appriciated
Hans

The last update seems to have introduced a feature which lets the Apple TV detect the native frequency of your TV, in the UK this is probably but not always 50 Hz, this is beneficial for Home video and broadcast content in these locations where the frame rate is 25 fps. It isn't ideal for 30 fps or 24 fps content though which most of the iTMS movies and TV shows are.
Also of relevance is that some TV's make a better job of telecine/detelecine than others due to the quality of their components.
Although I don't necessarily think that Apple are responsible for the ability of 3rd party TV's, the problem could be easily overcome by allowing the user to manually select the Apple TV output as was the case with the Apple TV 1. This would allow the user to switch to 60 Hz for 30/24 fps content and 50 Hz for 25 fps content.
Some TV's have motion settings which worsen/improve the situation depending on their settings.

DVD video judder in burnt DVD

I'm using Premiere Elements 7 with Windows XP SP3.
When I record video from digital television using a DVD recorder and burn it to disk, that plays GR8. When I import the VOB files to PE 7, they play fine on the monitor (eg if I check through them).
But when I burn the project back to DVD (with or without editing), the resultant video files have what I call "judder" when there is a lot of motion in the footage. If there is little motion, the footage looks as good as the original.
I've even tested it without doing any editing, menu, etc - same poor result once the actors move more than just a little.
I had the same problem with Premiere Elements 2.
Any suggestions as to how to correct?

Thanks - I redid the project - used the DVD/hard drive as the source, checked using GSpot and found that the video did need an interlace change to reverse the field dominance (& did that), but the result still wasn't good, so I tried again & found the best solution was to burn with no interlacing at all.
Checked the disc on 3 different DVD players & it worked great on all of them! Now I can get back to the old projects that had stalled.
Appreciate your help.

Motion judder

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