Problem with long pauses in Tenured collection

We have a Swing application running on Windows XP, which gets long pauses when Tenured objects are collected after a running couple of days.
System:
Windows XP
Intel Pentium M 1.8 ghz
512 MB ram
Java(TM) 2 Runtime Environment, Standard Edition (build 1.5.0_10-b03)
JVM Arguments:
-XX:+ForceTimeHighResolution -Xloggc:gc.log -verbose:gc -XX:+PrintGCTimeStamps -XX:+PrintGCDetails -Xms16m -Xmx384m
The first Tenured collections after 1 hour:
3520.317: [GC 3520.317: [DefNew: 2414K->242K(2432K), 0.0035340 secs]3520.320: [Tenured: 32111K->15691K(32140K), 0.3034778 secs] 34405K->15691K(34572K), 0.3072704 secs]
3673.867: [GC 3673.868: [DefNew: 2335K->125K(2432K), 0.0028552 secs]3673.870: [Tenured: 32042K->18786K(32140K), 0.2668128 secs] 34312K->18786K(34572K), 0.2699225 secs]
3839.103: [GC 3839.103: [DefNew: 2423K->156K(2432K), 0.0028918 secs]3839.106: [Tenured: 32126K->22544K(32140K), 0.3026440 secs] 34341K->22544K(34572K), 0.3058143 secs]Pretty harmless so far.
After 1 day:
85332.923: [GC 85332.924: [DefNew: 6528K->703K(6528K), 0.0122671 secs]85332.936: [Tenured: 86929K->48880K(87032K), 0.6243351 secs] 92687K->48880K(93560K), 0.6369188 secs]
97305.405: [GC 97305.405: [DefNew: 6493K->91K(6528K), 0.0041855 secs]97305.410: [Tenured: 86755K->55828K(86776K), 0.5189188 secs] 92662K->55828K(93304K), 0.5233905 secs]
97844.653: [GC 97844.653: [DefNew: 7040K->768K(7040K), 0.0142342 secs]97844.668: [Tenured: 93393K->57002K(93432K), 0.5293686 secs] 99611K->57002K(100472K), 0.5438841 secs]The time between two Tenured collection just took a jump now to about 3 hours. The gc length is about half a second.
After 3 days:
256894.994: [GC 256894.994: [DefNew: 13938K->1166K(14720K), 0.0080440 secs]256895.002: [Tenured: 195455K->114421K(195696K), 0.8638032 secs] 208915K->114421K(210416K), 0.8721174 secs]
258670.232: [GC 258670.232: [DefNew: 14327K->1600K(14720K), 0.0273586 secs]258670.259: [Tenured: 196045K->117861K(196104K), 0.9146393 secs] 209062K->117861K(210824K), 0.9422603 secs]
261577.464: [GC 261577.464: [DefNew: 14144K->584K(14848K), 0.0078192 secs]261577.472: [Tenured: 196705K->121486K(196820K), 0.8976985 secs] 210412K->121486K(211668K), 0.9058215 secs]The Tenured collection interval is about 2-3 hours now. Each collection is about 1 second.
Then we get some peaks after 4 days:
413096.848: [GC 413096.848: [DefNew: 20126K->997K(21504K), 0.0067539 secs]413096.855: [Tenured: 285819K->160167K(285828K), 2.9034254 secs] 305888K->160167K(307332K), 2.9103817 secs]
472214.414: [GC 472214.414: [DefNew: 22388K->1227K(23616K), 0.0095498 secs]472214.424: [Tenured: 313891K->178781K(313992K), 22.2893423 secs] 336110K->178781K(337608K), 22.3386254 secs]
485465.045: [GC 485465.045: [DefNew: 23616K->2423K(23616K), 0.0404118 secs]485465.086: [Tenured: 315925K->203606K(316040K), 9.0069023 secs] 336994K->203606K(339656K), 9.0477205 secs]
492248.783: [GC 492248.783: [DefNew: 24461K->24461K(25536K), 0.0000111 secs]492248.783: [Tenured: 338665K->201218K(339344K), 6.5526445 secs] 363126K->201218K(364880K), 6.5985010 secs]
533898.023: [GC 533898.023: [DefNew: 25913K->25913K(27200K), 0.0000150 secs]533898.024: [Tenured: 337387K->205940K(363008K), 3.2169493 secs] 363301K->205940K(390208K), 3.2172333 secs]
546566.675: [GC 546566.675: [DefNew: 27199K->27199K(27200K), 0.0000103 secs]546566.675: [Tenured: 338319K->227086K(363008K), 26.2682151 secs] 365519K->227086K(390208K), 26.2684060 secs]
562738.779: [GC 562738.780: [DefNew: 26081K->26081K(27200K), 0.0000104 secs]562738.780: [Tenured: 336929K->230971K(363008K), 7.9569240 secs] 363010K->230971K(390208K), 7.9571524 secs]The average time between each young collection is approx. 20 seconds.
7 full gc's have been performed:
3.877: [Full GC 3.877: [Tenured: 1759K->1831K(15168K), 0.0801147 secs] 2351K->1831K(16320K), [Perm : 12287K->12287K(12288K)], 0.0802154 secs]
6.281: [Full GC 6.281: [Tenured: 5071K->4056K(15168K), 0.1245083 secs] 6018K->4056K(16320K), [Perm : 16383K->16383K(16384K)], 0.1245978 secs]
184.854: [Full GC 184.854: [Tenured: 12628K->10437K(15168K), 0.2133769 secs] 12995K->10437K(16320K), [Perm : 20480K->20480K(20480K)], 0.2135845 secs]
5216.782: [Full GC 5216.782: [DefNew: 3008K->101K(3008K), 0.0044835 secs] 35049K->32886K(42340K), 0.0046464 secs]
198022.892: [Full GC 198022.892: [DefNew: 11520K->790K(11520K), 0.0110744 secs] 117670K->108219K(164672K), 0.0112750 secs]
254208.982: [Full GC 254208.982: [DefNew: 13765K->844K(14720K), 0.0059109 secs] 151946K->139025K(210056K), 0.0061115 secs]
566774.751: [Full GC 566774.751: [DefNew: 25680K->1611K(27200K), 0.0103055 secs] 274385K->250385K(390208K), 0.0105140 secs]The long pauses are not acceptable at all. Only pauses under 1 second are tolerable.
I know there is at least one memory leak in the logged software, where probably 50.000-100.000 ThreadGroups are produced each day and not collected (but only with some configurations).
So, after browsing around, I have found out that UseConcMarkSweepGC could reduce the long pauses. I tried it together with CMSIncrementalMode, but the JVM running at one of our customers crashed after 2 hours while using both options together. Apparently there where some issues with the incremental collector, which was fixed in 1.6. I was forced to remove the VM arguments immediately, but will probably use UseConcMarkSweepGC later after some thorough testing.
I have tried find out which other VM options I could use to tune the application, but I'm quite new to this and the amount of options are a bit overwhelming at the moment. I thought I could ask here if someone know some obvious option values (like NewRatio,SurvivorRatio etc.)

>
>
Doesn't a "Full Collection" always collect all generations (i.e. also the perm generation)? It's always been my understanding, that a "Full Collection" is some kind of "irregular" collection which only occurs if the JVM has "really bad need" for memory (e.g. when the concurrent phase of a CMS collection fails, when perm runs full or if someone calls System.gc()). So, as you write earlier, the first 3 collections labeld "Full GC" are real full GCs since they collect all generations (including perm). The latter four collections shouldn't be labeld "Full GC" (as you write). Yes, a full collection collects all the generations including the
perm generation.
In a stop-the-world collector such as the one you're using, a full
collection is not an unusual collection. They just happen less
frequenctly. Objects that survive a minor collection (collection
of the young gen) a few times will be promoted (copied to) the
tenured generation. The idea is that such objects may be
long lived so should be promoted to save the cost of handling
them during a minor collection. Eventually the tenured
generation gets full and then it gets collected.
And yes and yes. The first 3 are full collections and the
latter 4 are labelled incorrectly as full collections.
>
However, there are a lot of collections with "DefNew" followed by "Tenured" (the first three sections in the original post) which are regular collections where the promotion of objects from new to old caused the old generation to run full which triggers a "Tenured collection". But these collections (according to my understanding) are not full collections, but only regular tenured collections. (Sorry, I don't want to be picky about this. I guess that's even what you meant in your post...)I can see how this can be unclear. A "Tenured" collection
is a full collection. It also collects the perm gen. And
in fact it also collects the young gen again. This is how it
is implemented in the hotspot JVM. It can be implemented
differently in other JVM's.
The situation where a "DefNew" is followed by a "Tenured"
as in your logs is a bit unusual I think. The minor collection
is reducing the amount of used space in young generation.
DefNew: 13938K->1166K(14720K)
The decrease from 13938K to 1166K. There is then a collection
of the tenured gen.
Tenured: 195455K->114421K(195696K)
I've seen this when large objects (a significant fraction of
the young gen) are being allocated. The allocation fails in
the young gen, a minor collection is done but the space freed
in the young gen is still not large enough to allocate the object
so a collection of the tenured generation is done and the large
object is allocated directly out of the tenured gen. In the numbers
above after the minor collection about 13M of free space is
available in the young gen. Are you allocating objects larger
that 13M?

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    [Wed Dec 06 12:06:49 MET 2006] stdout: to space 56192K, 0% used [0x4d420000,0x4d420000,0x50b00000)
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    [Wed Dec 06 12:06:49 MET 2006] stdout: PSPermGen total 50688K, used 39889K [0xf5400000, 0xf8580000, 0xf9400000)
    [Wed Dec 06 12:06:49 MET 2006] stdout: object space 50688K, 78% used [0xf5400000,0xf7af4640,0xf8580000)
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    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:11 MET 2006] stdout: [Unloading class sun.reflect.GeneratedConstructorAccessor120]
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:11 MET 2006] stdout: [Unloading class sun.reflect.GeneratedMethodAccessor352]
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:11 MET 2006] stdout: [Unloading class sun.reflect.GeneratedConstructorAccessor168]
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:11 MET 2006] stdout: [Unloading class sun.reflect.GeneratedMethodAccessor351]
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:11 MET 2006] stdout: [Unloading class sun.reflect.GeneratedMethodAccessor66]
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:11 MET 2006] stdout: [Unloading class sun.reflect.GeneratedConstructorAccessor177]
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:11 MET 2006] stdout: [Unloading class sun.reflect.GeneratedConstructorAccessor164]
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:11 MET 2006] stdout: [Unloading class sun.reflect.GeneratedMethodAccessor376]
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:11 MET 2006] stdout: [Unloading class sun.reflect.GeneratedSerializationConstructorAccessor185]
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:11 MET 2006] stdout: [Unloading class sun.reflect.GeneratedConstructorAccessor78]
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:11 MET 2006] stdout: [Unloading class sun.reflect.GeneratedMethodAccessor381]
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:11 MET 2006] stdout: [Unloading class sun.reflect.GeneratedConstructorAccessor180]
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:11 MET 2006] stdout: [Unloading class sun.reflect.GeneratedConstructorAccessor162]
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:11 MET 2006] stdout: [Unloading class sun.reflect.GeneratedMethodAccessor347]
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:11 MET 2006] stdout: [Unloading class sun.reflect.GeneratedSerializationConstructorAccessor183]
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:11 MET 2006] stdout: [Unloading class sun.reflect.GeneratedMethodAccessor382]
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:11 MET 2006] stdout: [Unloading class sun.reflect.GeneratedConstructorAccessor167]
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:11 MET 2006] stdout: [Unloading class sun.reflect.GeneratedMethodAccessor350]
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:11 MET 2006] stdout: [Unloading class sun.reflect.GeneratedConstructorAccessor179]
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:11 MET 2006] stdout: [Unloading class sun.reflect.GeneratedConstructorAccessor181]
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:11 MET 2006] stdout: [Unloading class sun.reflect.GeneratedMethodAccessor349]
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:11 MET 2006] stdout: [Unloading class sun.reflect.GeneratedSerializationConstructorAccessor184]
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:11 MET 2006] stdout: [Unloading class sun.reflect.GeneratedConstructorAccessor174]
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:11 MET 2006] stdout: [Unloading class sun.reflect.GeneratedSerializationConstructorAccessor69]
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:11 MET 2006] stdout: [Unloading class sun.reflect.GeneratedConstructorAccessor173]
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:11 MET 2006] stdout: [Unloading class sun.reflect.GeneratedSerializationConstructorAccessor1]
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:11 MET 2006] stdout: [Unloading class sun.reflect.GeneratedConstructorAccessor76]
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:11 MET 2006] stdout: [Unloading class sun.reflect.GeneratedSerializationConstructorAccessor182]
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:11 MET 2006] stdout: [Unloading class sun.reflect.GeneratedSerializationConstructorAccessor44]
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    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:48 MET 2006] stdout: 1086887K->1023366K(1608312K), 358.9035143 secs]
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    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:48 MET 2006] stdout: from space 56192K, 0% used [0x49d40000,0x49d40000,0x4d420000)
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:48 MET 2006] stdout: to space 56192K, 0% used [0x4d420000,0x4d420000,0x50b00000)
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    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:48 MET 2006] stdout: object space 1214968K, 84% used [0x50b00000,0x8f261810,0x9ad7e000)
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:48 MET 2006] stdout: PSPermGen total 49152K, used 39189K [0xf5400000, 0xf8400000, 0xf9400000)
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:48 MET 2006] stdout: object space 49152K, 79% used [0xf5400000,0xf7a456b8,0xf8400000)
    [Wed Dec 06 12:12:48 MET 2006] stdout: } Total time for which application threads were stopped: 358.9442028 seconds
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    vmparam -Xmx3072m # JVM Maximum Heap Size.
    vmparam -Xmn439m # JVM New Objects Heap Size
    vmparam -XX:MaxPermSize=64m # JVM Max Permanent Heap Size
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    vmparam -XX:MaxPermSize=128m # Increased from 64m
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    System Info
    The java version is java version "1.4.2_03"
    Java(TM) 2 Runtime Environment, Standard Edition (build 1.4.2_03-b02)
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    Message was edited by:
    shaneorourke

    Just to point out that a similar post was raised prevoiusly by another
    user, that seemed to witness the same pauses, see "PermGen not full
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    http://forum.java.sun.com/thread.jspa?threadID=725550&messageID=4186298
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    Message was edited by:
    shaneorourke

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