Reduce bit depth or convert color profile first? (best practices question)

For making final deliverable files from working files, is it best to convert to a new color profile before reducing bit depth? Or vise versa?
Our working files are 16 bit with the ProPhoto color space. Our deliverable files are 8 bit AdobeRGB tiffs and sRGB jpegs. We convert using relative colorimetric with black point compensation. Does it make a difference which order these changes are made in?
Thanks in advance for your help!

A profile conversion recalculates RGB values, so yes, it should be done in 16 bit depth.

Similar Messages

Convert Colors profile to threshold to black? [A9]

Is there a reasonable way to create a color profile that can be used with Convert Colors to apply a threshold (180/255) function to convert an RGB PDF into a black-and-white PDF? Acrobat 9 (CS5), OSX 10.6.7.
I have some multipage PDF files I want to "sharpen" (make clearer) before printing, and found that opening a page in Photoshop and applying Image > Adjustment > Threshold to 180 (out of 255) does a nice job. This is a pain for multipage PDFs because I have to extract the pages from Acrobat, apply a batch action in Photoshop, and then (potentially) re-integrate them into a PDF file.
Acrobat can apply ICC profiles to convert an image via Advanced > Print Production > Convert Colors. But how can I generate an ICC profile that does something analagous to the threshold function?
One crummy way is in Photoshop. Edit > Color Settings, which allows you to define a custom CMYK profile. Under Dot gain, you can set transfer function curves for C,M,Y, and K. I tried doing that, with curves at zero up until 70%, at which point I ran them straight up to 100% with a very steep (almost vertical slope).Tried a bunch of GCR/UCR/Black conversion settings. I saved the profile so Acrobat could see it. This gave me weird results:
In Photoshop, it came close to doing what I wanted, but not totally, when I converted the image to that profile. But it wasn't drastically wrong. But when I applied the same profile in acrobat (with Convert Colors), it looked much much worse, with large blocky pixel groups and the document, which was mostly a raster image of text, almost unreadable.
(Sorry for the lack of screenshots/images -- they're at the office, I'll post them tomorrow...)
Any tips? Is there a better way to do what I want and apply a simple transform to a PDF file?
A better tool to create ICC profiles for Acrobat's Convert Colors?
Am I just using the wrong settings in Photoshop?
Thanks!

OK, some more info. So, my PDF contains letter-size pages with 300dpi 8bpp images that are DeviceRGB DCT-encoded (JPEG). Here's how Acrobat displays one of the characters:
(All those obvious JPEG artifacts which explain why it prints badly and would benefit from processing). It looks pretty much the same in Photoshop (via Edit Image from Acrobat, or opening the PDF file directly). Thresholding it to 180 in Photoshop does a great job:
For simplicity, I tried to build a Gray profile that did what I wanted. But it looks like Photoshop's gray profiles only let you adjust dot gain and gamma, and neither of those are sufficient to achieve this kind of effect. RGB doesn't let you use curves. So I converted the image to CMYK, and then Edit > Convert to Profile, then choose CMYK and Custom CMYK and define a profile like this:
with these Curves:
And it seems to do the right thing when the image is converted to it in Photoshop; not perfect but much better than the source:
So, back to Acrobat, and apply the profile with Convert Colors:
basically a disaster. and some very faint jpeg artifacts turn into a big blue rectangle.
So what to do? Is there a better way to construct these profiles? Or should I give up and use batch operations?

Smart objects and convert color profile behaviour

I get different results when converting to the same color profile before and after converting to smart object. Why?
Do the following:
1. create a cmyk document with color profile 'Euroscale Uncoated v2' and fill the document with the color 86, 32, 14, 0
2. change the color profile to 'Euroscale Coated v2' -> the values change to 73, 29, 16, 0, no color change on the monitor
3. create a smart object -> the values stay the same, no color change on the monitor
4. create a second document like in step 1
5. create a smart object -> the values stay the same, no color change on the monitor
6. now change the color profile to 'Euroscale Coated v2' -> the values stay the same, this time we have a color change on the monitor
Why don't I get the same result?

I found this topic looking for an answer to this exact same problem.
Many of you refer to it as a bug / unexpected behaviour, which i thought it was either. But after some tests, it seems very logical behaviour actually to me now.
It simply follows the rules in the color settings.
In "Color Management Policies", when CMYK is set to "Preserve Embedded Profiles", it keeps the CMYK numbers for smart objects. Setting this to "Convert to Working CMYK" would make the color conversion as expected.
However, i don't think this would be a good idea (depending on your workflow offcourse). For example, pasting a 100K shape from a coated.icc illustrator file into an uncoated.icc photoshop file, as a smart object, would convert the 100K (not keeping the CMYK numbers).
I guess the workarround with a CMYK smart object into an RGB smart object (or maybe LAB), is ok to use when CMYK to CMYK conversion is really necessary for smart objects.

Convert color profile when exporting?

is there a way to force Lightroom to export JPGs using a specific color profile? I've got a bunch of ProPhoto profiled images but I need to export them for the web using sRGB... help?

Hm, Lee Jay, I didn't see your response until I sent mine. I guess everything is not perfect in the forum either. :-)
Mel

Change background color (programmatically) temporarily - best practice

Have a look at the attached image...I'm attempting to temporarily change the UI panel color to red temporarily if the user selects a bad value. I'm not including anything but the color changing aspect of it. Anyway, what I've got working so far is a flat sequence with a wait timer in the first sequence, which changes the screen red for 1 second. The last sequence changes the color back to gray. Is this the best way of doing this? -Mike

KSU Flyer wrote:
Have a look at the attached image...I'm attempting to temporarily change the UI panel color to red temporarily if the user selects a bad value. I'm not including anything but the color changing aspect of it. Anyway, what I've got working so far is a flat sequence with a wait timer in the first sequence, which changes the screen red for 1 second. The last sequence changes the color back to gray. Is this the best way of doing this? -Mike
The second frame of the seq structure is not required since data dependancies prevent it from running until after the firs is done but aside from that minor point that looks fine.
Ben
Ben Rayner
I am currently active on.. MainStream Preppers
Rayner's Ridge is under construction

Can I change the bit depth on images in pdf files?

I have a lot of pdf files that were scanned in 24 bit colour. I'd like to convert some of them to greyscale or black and white, and reduce the resolution to make them smaller.
I can see how to reduce the resolution with Save As Other/Optimized PDF, but there are no options there to reduce bit depth. Is there any way to do this?

Thanks, I think I've worked out how to use them. I found a fixup called "Convert color to B/W", but it seems to convert to greyscale, not black and white.
I found this page describing how to convert to both greyscale and monochrome. It says the only way to do monochrome is to convert to tiff first:
http://blogs.adobe.com/acrolaw/2009/10/converting-color-pdf-to-greyscale-pdf-an-update/
If that's the case then Acrobat Pro isn't going to help me, but that was written in 2009. Does anyone know if true black and white conversion has been made available since then?

Color Profile Question

I recently purchased a new PC and have been working from it for about a month or so without any issues. My client sent me an email saying that her images were appearing muted on her computer screen prior to printing them off of a few common photo labs. I looked into it and tried it myself and it was indeed correct. All of the images edited on my new PC were muted...my first instinct was that it was the color profile. I converted the image to sRGB and it fixed the problem. Now comes the problem....my photos are saving under the wrong color profile. How do I prevent this from happening so that all my images are automatically saved the my preference of color profile. I hope this makes sense because my mind is spinning from trying to figure this out! Thanks in advance!

audi454 wrote:
1. AdobeRGB
2. Im not sure what you mean, preferences in PSE?
3. My client has a print release, I use WHCC to print my pictures and I believe they require sRGB as well.
4. Yes I always shoot in RAW.
Thanks for taking the time to help, I looked at my Lightroom color settings since that's how I import my pics and it was set on Adobe Pro I believe... I changed it to sRGB.
Sent from my iPhone
Thanks for the info : I'll start with the 4th question because it's the less known factor with Elements
If you shoot raw, the settings of your camera (Adobe RGB) will be ignored. This setting works only with the out of camera jpegs. A 'raw' file has no color profile, so PSE needs to know which profile you want for the conversion. You won't find any menu or dialog entries in ACR for that purpose. So, to convert the file when you 'Open' in the editor, PSE looks at the settings in your editor (my question #2, Menu Edit/Color settings...
If you have chosen option 1, 'Always optimize for computer screens', PSE will convert the raw file to sRGB profile.
If you have chosen 'Always optimize for printing', PSE will convert to aRGB...
If you want to take advantage of the slightly wider color space of Adobe RGB because your home printer can use it, select the second option, but if you have to send the picture in sRGB, do not forget to convert before sending. Menu /image/convert color profile.
If you don't want to bother, use sRGB with the option 1. You won't risk forgetting to convert the client version.
Never use 'No color management' in the menu /edit/color settings
If you first convert to sRGB with option 1, you won't get any advantage to convert to aRGB afterwards

Maximum bit depth-maximum render quality when dynamic linking

Hi
A bit confused by the use of Maximum bit depth and Maximum render quality as used both in Sequence Settings and also as options when rendering in AME.
1 Do you need to explicitly enable these switches in the sequence for best quality or, do you simply need to switch them on in AME when you render in Media Encoder?
2 When dynamic linking to After Effects, when should you use an 8 bit vs 16 or 32 bit working space, and, how does this bit depth interact with the maximum bit depth, maximum render quality in PPro?

Hi jbach2,
I understand your confusion. I'm like that most of the time I'm working. *chuckle* The two settings you mentioned are two completely different parameters affecting (or is it effecting) your video. You do not need to enable them within the sequence itself unless you want to preview video on you program monitor at the highest quality. I personally don't recommend it, as it's a tremendous resource hog, (the program even warns you when you try to click them) and unessecary for improving final output. Again, do not enable these options in your sequence settings if you are only wanting a high quality export. Doing so will greatly reduce your editing performance unless you have a high-end system. ...and even then I don't think its worth it unless you're editing on a huge screen with a Director who wants to see everything at a maximum quality during the edit process.
Keeping it simple...
Resizing your final output video? Use Maximum bit depth.
Starting or working with high bitdepth sources? Use Max Bit Depth.
When/where do I enable these? In the AME only. ^_^
Why?:
Enabling the Max bit and Max render only needs to be done when you are exporting. They both serve different functions.
Max Render aids in the scaling/conversion process only. My understanding is that you never need to enable the Max Render Quality (MRQ) unless you are exporting in a format/pixel ratio different from your original video. For example, when rendering a 1080p timeline out to a 480p file format, you'll want to use MRQ to ensure the best scaling with the least amount of artifacts and aliasing. If you're exporting at the same size you're working with, DON'T enable MRQ. It will just cost you time and CPU. Its only function is to do a high quality resizing of your work.
Maximum bit depth increases the color depth that your video is working with and rendering to. If you're working with video that has low color depth, then I don't believe it will matter. However, if you're working with 32 bit color on your timeline in PPro and/or After Effects, using lots of graphics, high contrast values, or color gradients, you may want to enable this option. It ultimately depends on the color depth of your source material.
The same applies to After Effects.
Create something in AE like a nice color gradient. Now switch the same project between 8,16,32 bit depth, and you will see a noticable difference in how the bit depth effects your colors and the smoothness of the gradient.
Bit depth effects how different plugins/effects change your overall image. Higher depth means more colors to work with (and incidentally, more cpu you need)
Just remember that "DEPTH" determines how many colors you can "fill your bucket with" and "QUALITY" is just that, the quality of your "resize".
http://blogs.adobe.com/VideoRoad/2010/06/understanding_color_processing.html
Check out this adobe blog for more info on color depth ^_^ Hope that helps!
----a lil excerpt from the blog i linked to above---
Now, 8-bit, 10-bit, and 12-bit color are the industry standards for recording color in a device. The vast majority of cameras use 8-bits for color. If your camera doesn’t mention the color bit depth, it’s using 8-bits per channel. Higher-end cameras use 10-bit, and they make a big deal about using “10-bit precision” in their literature. Only a select few cameras use 12-bits, like the digital cinema camera, the RED ONE.
Software like After Effects and Premiere Pro processes color images using color precision of 8-bits, 16-bits, and a special color bit depth called 32-bit floating point. You’ve probably seen these color modes in After Effects, and you’ve seen the new “32″ icons on some of the effects in Premiere Pro CS5.
jbach2 wrote:
Hi
A bit confused by the use of Maximum bit depth and Maximum render quality as used both in Sequence Settings and also as options when rendering in AME.
1 Do you need to explicitly enable these switches in the sequence for best quality or, do you simply need to switch them on in AME when you render in Media Encoder?
2 When dynamic linking to After Effects, when should you use an 8 bit vs 16 or 32 bit working space, and, how does this bit depth interact with the maximum bit depth, maximum render quality in PPro?
Message was edited by: SnJK

Odd color shift and OS color profile question

I've run into something that leads me to believe that the OS X color profile management has caused me a problem. I'd like to figure out how to tell the OS to not manage color profiles in order to avoid future problems. So far this is only an issue when dealing with CMYK images.
A little background...
I received a JPEG image from a photographer. Converted it to CMYK and made minor edits in Photoshop, not touching the color profiles or trying to color correct. I saved a JPEG of the edited image, and imported it into Freehand 10. When imported, the entire image shifted slightly pink. When viewed in Preview or Photoshop it looked fine. It was only when I imported it that it shifted.
A friend suggested this might have something to with color profiles, so I fiddled around with both PS and FH to make sure they were using the same ones. Even when they were the image shifted pink. This was on my desktop machine, recently upgraded to Tiger.
I noticed my PowerBook was still running Panther. I took the same image, same data file, same programs and when I imported the image again, it was fine. Looked just like it did in PhotoShop and Preview. I immediately saved out a PDF for posterity and press use.
Given the above, the only real variable is the version of the OS. This leads me to believe that there's something about how Tiger handles color profiles on the OS level that's causing this shift. What I don't know is how to remove the OS' meddling to remove it from the workflow.
Any ideas?
Thanks in advance...
G4 Dual 867 Mac OS X (10.4.3) 768MB RAM, 120GBHD

audi454 wrote:
1. AdobeRGB
2. Im not sure what you mean, preferences in PSE?
3. My client has a print release, I use WHCC to print my pictures and I believe they require sRGB as well.
4. Yes I always shoot in RAW.
Thanks for taking the time to help, I looked at my Lightroom color settings since that's how I import my pics and it was set on Adobe Pro I believe... I changed it to sRGB.
Sent from my iPhone
Thanks for the info : I'll start with the 4th question because it's the less known factor with Elements
If you shoot raw, the settings of your camera (Adobe RGB) will be ignored. This setting works only with the out of camera jpegs. A 'raw' file has no color profile, so PSE needs to know which profile you want for the conversion. You won't find any menu or dialog entries in ACR for that purpose. So, to convert the file when you 'Open' in the editor, PSE looks at the settings in your editor (my question #2, Menu Edit/Color settings...
If you have chosen option 1, 'Always optimize for computer screens', PSE will convert the raw file to sRGB profile.
If you have chosen 'Always optimize for printing', PSE will convert to aRGB...
If you want to take advantage of the slightly wider color space of Adobe RGB because your home printer can use it, select the second option, but if you have to send the picture in sRGB, do not forget to convert before sending. Menu /image/convert color profile.
If you don't want to bother, use sRGB with the option 1. You won't risk forgetting to convert the client version.
Never use 'No color management' in the menu /edit/color settings
If you first convert to sRGB with option 1, you won't get any advantage to convert to aRGB afterwards

Maximum Bit Depth /Maximum Render Quality Questions

Maximum Bit Depth
If my project contains high-bit-depth assets generated by high-definition camcorders, I was told to select Maximum Bit Depth because Adobe Premiere Pro uses all the color information in these assets when processing effects or generating preview files. I'm capturing HDV using the Matrox RTX-2 Hardware in Matrox AVI format.
When I finally export my project using Adobe Media Encoder CS4, will selecting Maximum Bit Depth provide better color resolution once I post to Blu-ray format?
Maximum Render Quality
I was told that by using Maximum Render Quality, I maintain sharp detail when scaling from large formats to smaller formats, or from high-definition to standard-definition formats as well as maximizes the quality of motion in rendered clips and sequences. It also renders moving assets more sharply. It's my understanding that at maximum quality, rendering takes more time, and uses more RAM than at the default normal quality. I'm running Vista 64 Bit with 8 GIGs of RAM so I'm hoping to take advantage of this feature.
Will this also help to improve better resolution when I finally export my project using Adobe Media Encoder CS4 and post to Blu-ray format?
Does it look like I have the specs to handle Maximum Bit Depth and Maximum Render Quality when creating a new HDV project with the support of the Matrox RTX 2 Hardware capturing in Matrox AVI format? See Below Specs.
System Specs
Case: Coolmaster-830
Op System: Vista Ultima 64 Bit
Edit Suite: Adobe Creative Suite 4 Production Premium Line Upgrade
Adobe Premiere Pro CS 4.0.1 update before installing RT.X2 Card and 4.0 tools
Performed updates on all Adobe Production Premium Products as of 03/01/2009
Matrox RTX2 4.0 Tools
Main Display: Dell 3007 30"
DVI Monitor: Dell 2408WFP 24"
MB: ASUS P5E3 Deluxe/WiFi-AP LGA 775 Intel X38
Display Card: SAPPHIRE Radeon HD 4870 512MB GDDR5 Toxic ver.
PS: Corsair|CMPSU-1000HX 1000W
CPU: INTEL Quad Core Q9650 3G
MEM: 2Gx4|Corsair TW3X4G1333C9DHXR DDR3 (8 Gigs Total)
1 Sys Drive: Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 500GB 7200 RPM 32MB
Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s
2 Raid 0: Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 500GB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Using Intel's integrared Raid Controller on MB

Just some details that i find useful on maximum render depth
You really need it even with 8bit source files, when using heavy grading/multiple curves/vignettes. If after grading you see banding, go to sequence > sequence settings from the top menu and check "maximum bit depth (ignore the performance popup), then check again your preview (it will change in a second) to see if banding is still present in 32bit mode. If no banding, you must check it when exporting, if banding is still there, change your grading, then uncheck it to continue with editing.
Unfortunately Maximum bit depth exporting is extremely time-consuming, but can really SAVE YOUR DAY when facing artifacts after heavy grading, by completely or almost completely eliminating banding and other unwanted color distortions.
Use it only for either small previews or the really final output.
Best Regards.

Adobe Employees: View Tools Print Production Convert Colors

Totally don't get your View> Tools> Print Production> Convert Colors dialog.
I would expect that if it was working that all Tagged files (left column) would display correctly.
But in every test it appears all that happens is my profiles are stripped.
Can you possibly let me know what I may be missing as no one else seems to be able to?
Here is my control .pdf download:
gballard.net/photoshop/pdi_download/PDI_Color_Profile_Test.pdf
Here is how it displays Acrobat Pro 10.1.5 (as expected):
Left column is Taggged as noted (displays proper as expected).
Right column is Untaggged as noted (displays unmanaged).

i had a revelation slugging this out:
Acrobat Print Production> Convert Colors behaves nothing like i expected (accurately transforming Tagged source colors to a Destination profile)
i am still interested if this is possible, but this is what i believe is happening (and it is easily proven in Photoshop on the monitor)
During Acrobat's "Convert Colors" process (using my conversion settings):
Acrobat IGNORES the profiles embedded in my RGB images.
Acrobat "Assumes" its Working RGB profile (on all Tagged/Untagged images) and then
Acrobat "Converts" everything to the Destination profile and embeds that profile.
Here are my Acrobat Color Settings (Working RGB is ProPhoto RGB):
Here is how those settings display my original .pdf:
Note: This is totally predictable and how Photoshop displays Tagged and Untagged color (Photoshop properly "Converts" or transforms Tagged color to the monitor profile; and Photoshop, like Acrobat, "Assumes" its Working space on Untagged colors). That means the left column containing all Tagged images are displaying the same as Photoshop, and the right column of Untagged images are each uniquely different. In fact, the Untagged ProPhoto RGB is the only Untagged image displaying proper because Acrobat made the proper Assumption.
Here are my Acrobat Convert Colors settings (my best guess for a simple Source> Destination conversion):
Here is the result using the above Working RGB and Convert Colors settings:
Note: This is crystal clear.
To prove it in Photoshop one would merely have to open each of the original 10 files and Assign ProPhoto RGB to each file, then Convert each one of them to WhackedRGB (and this is exactly what I would expect to see).
And here's the proof:
I dragged the Converted .pdf into Photoshop and "Used the embedded Profile" (Whacked RGB) to open the ProPhotoRGB image -- as you can see -- Acrobat made a proper conversion to Whacked RGB, correctly embedded the Destination profile, and is displaying it proper.
i am still really interested if Acrobat is capable of properly Converting multiple Tagged elements to a single tagged Destination profile -- i.e., my five tagged images in the left column display properly (like Photoshop displays them)...
PS: I did the exact same series of tests/screenshots using WhackedRGB as my Acrobat Working RGB -- the results were as predicted (Whacked RGB was the only source space that properly converted).

PSE 11 - How save image with printer color profile?

I use an outside service to make prints. How can I save an image in PSE 11 in either TIFF or JPEG format with the color profile for the outside lab's printer? Thanks.

You can print a photo using the correct printer profile for the lab printer. In the print dialog box , go to "Page Option>Color Management" and then choose Color Handling as "Photoshop Managers color". Now click the printer profile dropdown and choose the profile for your lab printer. If you are not able to find the profile for you printer then choose "Printer Manages Color"
To your second question the answer is that you cannot save the image with the correct colors for printing. You can only convert the profile of your image to Adobe RGB which matches gamut of most printer profiles using "Image Menu>Convert Color Profile and choose Adobe RGB.

Setting color Profile in PSE8

In setting the color profile for pictures to be exported to FCS3 for HDTV it is recommended to use color profile HDTV (rec. 709). This setting is not available.
For SD a color profile of sRGB is recommended, which is available Image > Convert Color Profile > convert sRGB.
Is there a way to set the proper color profile for HDTV?
Thank you
Kent

Elements is very limited in its ability to convert to different colour spaces. Basically it only offers you a choice of AdobeRGB or sRGB.
There is a free profile conversion program from here.... http://www.drycreekphoto.com/tools/profile_converter/
You'll need to get the profile you need which I think is available here.... http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/detail.jsp?ftpID=4074
Although it says MAC OS you should be able to just unzip the file and put the appropriate profile in the correct folder for your system.
Colin

Apple Pro Res 422 HQ export - "render at max depth" and "24 bit or 48 bit depth"?

I'm exporting my 90 minute feature for DCP using the Apple Pro Res 422 HQ codec. The film is 1920x1080 and that is what the export will be. We used a variety of cameras (Canon 7D, Sony XR160, GoPro, Blackmagic in HD) for the film.
For the export options:
Do I check "Render at Maximum Depth"?
Which do I choose - 24 bit or 48 bit depth? - one has to be chosen even when "Render at Maximum Depth" is unchecked
When I asked the DCP house, they said that "Render at Maximum Depth doesn't actually do anything when using this codec" and haven't answered the 24 vs. 48 bit question.
This discussion:
https://forums.adobe.com/message/4529886#4529886
says that you "never need to enable the Max Render Quality (MRQ) unless you are exporting in a format/pixel ratio different from your original video."
This discussion:
https://forums.adobe.com/message/5619144#5619144
adds insight into what 24 vs 48 bit depth means, but doesn't answer my specific question
Thanks for your help.

For your reading enjoyment -
http://forums.adobe.com/message/4529886
http://images.apple.com/finalcutpro/docs/Apple_ProRes_White_Paper_October_2012.pdf
A question for you - what is your workflow where you think you might need this? Keep in mind that the majority of cameras only record 8-bit color, and also in a very highly compressed format, so you won't necessarily gain anything by going to 4444, as the source video is of limited quality already.
Basically, if you don't have any high-bit-depth sources in your timeline to preserve the quality of, there may be little or no benefit to enabling "Max Depth".
Thanks
Jeff Pulera
Safe Harbor Computers

RGB COLOR PROFILE

Each time I try to place a book order it fails with the following message : An unexpected error occured... check your connection...
After reviewing the different forums, sending emails to cientele support, it seems that I need to make sure that my photo used in the book are all in RGB COLOR PROFILE...
Questions :
1. Where can I check the photo profile ?
2. How do I convert all my photos to this profile ?
Thanx for any help

Since I have this pb I have followed many suggestions that would be the cause :
* I have used a better connection at my office
* I have recreated my account
* I have enough space on my hard drive
* I have successfuly placed orders for post cards
The only solution remaining is to have all my photo under the RGB as the photoservice support suggested me... the pb is I have still no idea how to proceed...
Let me know should you think this is not a cause and how to solve the pb.
Thank u for your help and patience.

Reduce bit depth or convert color profile first? (best practices question)

Similar Messages

Maybe you are looking for