Save to Web Color Shift with sRGB Working Space

I'm having a problem a lot of other people have, which is the color shift when saving to web or viewing my work in a web browser.
The solutions I've found in the past have been to simply make sure my working color space in Photoshop is sRGB and that my files are being built with that profile as well. I'm under the impression that sRGB is essentially the same color space as is used in a web browser, and therefore my work should look identical in both Photoshop and a web browser.
So why am I still getting a color shift? Everything in a browser appears darker and with more contrast, as though the colors have been pumped up a bit.
My monitor color has been calibrated with a Spyder 3 Pro and I'm using the profile it created for me as my OS X color profile. Thinking the shift may be related to my monitor profile, I tried switching to other profiles, but I still get a color shift in every single one.
Any ideas? Thanks!

sRGB based on capabilities and trends of development (circa late 1990s) for commodities CRT computers displays. sRGB per se has nothing to do with web browsers. The reason it has become associated with the web is the assumption that most web users are looking at content using a commodities CRT monitor using Microsoft Windows.
It should be obvious that the use of a standard of some kind for display is better than none if there is to be any trend towards predictability of image display. Today, in commodities computing, that standard is sRGB: neutral color where R=B=G, and a gray ramp and primaries typical of the electron gun and phosphors used in CRT displays perfected for use in color television. It just so happens that this coding is rather will suited to get good value out of a minimum numbers of bits for color representation (e.g, 8 bits per channel 24 bit color)
Web browsers in and of themselves don't have a color space. A few, such as Mac Safari, use the ICC color management capabilities of the system, and these display compensated color just like Photoshop does: if the image is tagged with an ICC profile, compensation will be applied in the browser window. But for the vast majority of computers and users, browser color is monitor color, and it's easier and most reliable for designers to just assume sRGB because it's the space that's the best approximation of the internet at large.
You work usually will not look identical in Photoshop and a web browser (assuming that the browser does not or cannot do color management) because Photoshop is always soft proofing the working space onto the display. It is this quality that leads you to see parity between photoshop and the web browser when you choose you monitor profile as the working space: the soft proof produces no compensation.
But while this fixes up your local experience it is -not- the solution because this projects your monitor characteristics into the image when you share it. For example, if your monitor has a lumpy non-linear tonal response and you correct image shadows or saturation for a certain look the image data will code your monitor response as well as your intentions for the image appearance. Others will see the combination of your correction for your monitor response mapped over their monitor response, in fact they will see an inversion of your monitor's response coded in the image, and to whatever extent your monitor deviates from the norm is the extent which at the very least others displays of the images you correct will deviate from your intentioned look.
The answer to your problem--and this may surprise you--is to tolerate and appreciate the difference in display between photoshop's rendition of color and your browsers. Photoshop is showing your image more truly--within certain significant local limits--in terms of your working space than your web browser. By choosing an appropriate working space, and for the web it should be sRGB, and by profiling your monitor as you have, you are ensuring your images are normalized to current standards for web presentation. Others may still see crap, but it's most likely their problem and if they don't want to do anything about it that's their problem, not yours.
There are a wide variety of reasons why a properly calibrated monitor will not match a working space which the soft proof cannot overcome. A monitor gamut larger than sRGB is not one of them. Photoshop will properly display sRGB data if the display profile properly characterizes the larger gamut display. This leads to questions about the effects of monitor quality on workflow. Maybe the most important of these is "How do I know my Spyder has properly calibrated my display!!!" But this is a topic for a whole 'nother thread.
Where I run into trouble is when trying to make visual color comparisons during web design between my photoshop website mockup and a published site. I get confused and try to make color picker style matches by eye rather than by the numbers because I forget my web browser is not color managed. Sometimes I forget how all the parts play together and get confused and disoriented, then I make compounding mistakes. Then I start blaming my tools. Pity me.

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Save for web color shift - only on images smaller than 150x150px

I'm getting a color shift only on small images (150x150px or smaller) when I save for web in Photoshop CC and CS6. That's very weird as it doesn't happen to images larger than 150x150px! That issue happens with images with different measurements as well (e.g. rectangle), the small looks dull and the larger display the right color.
My Color Settings are set to "Monitor Color". Under save for web I have the following options not ticked: Embed Color Profile and Convert to sRGB. (viget.com/inspire/the-mysterious-save-for-web-color-shift)
I'm running the OS X 10.8.4 on a macbook pro, I tested that on both, Safari 6.0.5 and FF.
The squares in the screenshot were saved exatly the same way. The largerer displays the right color #FFCB32, but the smaller displays the color wrong.
I appreciate your help.
Cheers
P

JPG & PNG = Color Profile "Don't Color Manage this document". Save under save for web I have the following options not ticked: Embed Color Profile and Convert to sRGB. (viget.com/inspire/the-mysterious-save-for-web-color-shift)
Resizing in photoshop (Image Size), but the color shifts even with cropped image after save for web.

A different take on the "Save For Web" color shift issue...

Ok, everyone who has fussed much with photoshop and "Save For Web" knows about the color shift issue. If you want your colors to look right after you "save for web", you have to work in the sRGB colorspace, and have Proof Colors checked (soft proofing on) and the proof color setup set to Monitor RGB, otherwise what you get looks terrible when displayed in a browser.
But of course if you are editing for print, this is exactly what you DON'T want to do. Well, I work in both. In fact, often the same images, and I want them to appear as close as reasonably possible in both print and web formats, and without a lot of fussing on my part. And I'm pickiest about the print mode, since I have the most control there, so that's the way I want to edit by default.
Nothing new here.
Now comes the interesting part (in my mind, anyway). Obviously there is a known remapping -- because PhotoShop DOES it when you select Proof Colors. So the inverse mapping must also be known (with some gamut issues, but I'm not concerned with those, because, after all, I'm VIEWING it on a monitor anyway!). What I want is a plug-in that automatically applies that inverse mapping so that, when I do a Save For Web, I end up with the colors I've been viewing all the time when setting the shot up in print mode. Then, too, I don't have to worry about what mode I'm in when I'm editing -- it just fixes it when doing a save-for-web.
Again, I want to edit in my normal print mode (typically ProPhoto colorspace, and with soft-proofing off or set to the printer/medium combination I expect to use), then do a single operation (might be a multi-step action) to "screw up" my colors so that when I then do a "Save-For-Web", the resulting image, when viewed on the average color-stupid browser, looks like the image I've been seeing in Photoshop.
Anyone know of such a beast?   I would gladly pay for a plug-in that really works and fixes the problem.
And if you have other solutions, I'm interested, but the absolute requirement is that it I do one single edit pass for my colors for both print and web use, and I get what I see on the screen in PS on both the prints and on the web display (i.e., working in sRGB/Monitor RGB mode all the time won't cut it). And PREFERABLY, let me do all my editing work in the ProPhoto (or at least AdobeRGB) colorspace so I have a gamut closer to what the printer can do.
Anyone got a decent solution for this?

Sorry, I think I'm being unclear. This has nothing to do with individual monitor profiles. In Proof Setup, "Monitor RGB" amounts to turning off ALL color management, and simply letting the monitor do what it will. It is what the vast majority of web browsers do (even if the operating system provides color management, the browsers don't take advantage of it), so that is what you need to consider for images that will be viewed on a web browser. If you convert your image to sRGB, select Monitor RGB in Proof Set up, and turn on Proof Colors, you will see the image as it would appear on a web browser (after you save it as a jpg or use "Save For Web/Devices" to save it as a jpg).   Since almost everyone is running different uncalibrated monitors, there will be lots of variation in how it will look to them, so precise control of the color is unimportant.
That said, I would expect the color on a calibrated monitor (such as the one I use when editing) to be reasonably close to the colors I am seeing while editing in PS. To the extent a monitor deviates from "calibrated", those colors will vary, but a good monitor should show good colors.   Unfortunately, this is NOT the case, as my previous post shows. The colors produced by the steps above are oversaturated and significantly shifted in hue. There is, to my mind, anyway, no reason for this. Adobe clearly knows what the mapping is between the colors as it displays them in PS and the un-controlled "Monitor RGB" -- that is, it is the color map they are using during normal editing display. If they were to reverse-apply that map prior to saving it as a jpg, then the image would appear on a browser on that same (presumably calibrated) monitor very similar to what you set up when editing. Anyone else viewing the image on a web browser with a calibrated monitor would also see good colors. To the extent other viewers' monitors are out of calibration, their colors will suck, but there's nothing you can do about that.
I guess in some sense I AM "asking for a Color-Mamangement-solution for a "non-Color-Management-situation", but specifically I'm asking for PS Color Management to do the best it can for non-Color-Managed situations that we all face every day.
Does that make more sense?

Looking for a better solution to the "Save for web" color shift issue

Ok, everyone who has fussed much with photoshop and "Save For Web" knows about the color shift issue. If you want your colors to look right after you "save for web", you have to work in the sRGB colorspace, and have Proof Colors checked (soft proofing on) and the proof color setup set to Monitor RGB, otherwise what you get looks terrible when displayed in a browser.
But of course if you are editing for print, this is exactly what you DON'T want to do. Well, I work in both. In fact, often the same images, and I want them to appear as close as reasonably possible in both print and web formats, and without a lot of fussing on my part. And I'm pickiest about the print mode, since I have the most control there, so that's the way I want to edit by default.
Nothing new here.
Now comes the interesting part (in my mind, anyway). Obviously there is a known remapping -- because PhotoShop DOES it when you select Proof Colors. So the inverse mapping must also be known (with some gamut issues, but I'm not concerned with those, because, after all, I'm VIEWING it on a monitor anyway!). What I want is a plug-in that automatically applies that inverse mapping so that, when I do a Save For Web, I end up with the colors I've been viewing all the time when setting the shot up in print mode. Then, too, I don't have to worry about what mode I'm in when I'm editing -- it just fixes it when doing a save-for-web.
Again, I want to edit in my normal print mode (typically ProPhoto colorspace, and with soft-proofing off or set to the printer/medium combination I expect to use), then do a single operation (might be a multi-step action) to "screw up" my colors so that when I then do a "Save-For-Web", the resulting image, when viewed on the average color-stupid browser, looks like the image I've been seeing in Photoshop.
Anyone know of such a beast? I would gladly pay for a plug-in that really works and fixes the problem.
And if you have other solutions, I'm interested, but the absolute requirement is that it I do one single edit pass for my colors for both print and web use, and I get what I see on the screen in PS on both the prints and on the web display (i.e., working in sRGB/Monitor RGB mode all the time won't cut it). And PREFERABLY, let me do all my editing work in the ProPhoto (or at least AdobeRGB) colorspace so I have a gamut closer to what the printer can do.
Anyone got a decent solution for this?

Chris
I spent all day Googling and doing side by side comparisons of my old and new systems.
My display is a Dell U2410. It has several presets, including sRGB and Adobe RGB. I've been using sRGB.
On my OLD system, (Win XP, PsCS2, DwCS4) there seems to be no distinction between color managed and non color managed apps, even on this wide gamut display. I could capture (digital camera) in Adobe RGB, open and edit in PsCS2, save as .psd, convert to CMYK for print, or convert to sRGB for SFW. All images looked identical and they printed and displayed perfectly. I thought this was normal, and seemed logical. This also seems to be the source of my incorrect assumptions. I was trying to get my new machine to behave like my old one.
So I get this new machine (Windows 7, PsCS5, DwCS5) and now (still in sRGB display mode) all color managed apps appear de-saturated. Non color managed apps are OK. If I switch the display to Adobe RGB, color managed apps are OK, but non color managed apps are way too saturated. From my investigation, I believe this is normal behavior on a wide gamut display. I've tried changing the Control Panel > Display > Screen Resolution > Advanced settings > Color Management options, but to no avail. Either I'm missing something, or Windows 7 is doing color management differently.
It seems my only option now is to use Adobe RGB display setting for Ps, etc. and switch to sRGB for Dw and non color managed apps. Or, have 2 separate files for print and web. I've Googled 'til my eyes are numb and still not sure I'm getting this. Any enlightenment would be greatly appreciated.
Finally, I don't see an edit function here, so I can't remove my previous incorrect reply. Moderator, please feel free to do so.
Thanks

Batch processing "save for web" color shift problem

In Illustrator CS3, when batch processing "save for web and devices," there is a dramatic color shift in resulting files.
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SFW (CS3) isn't functioning correctly, or perhaps I'm missing a pref or configuration.
When I go to SFW, the image in the SFW window no matter what setting or level (even 100%) and resulting file is lighter, as in washed out, from it's PSD parent.
Even viewing the Original from within SFW is not the at the original levels. It's washed out.
As a test, if I do a Save As from the same PSD parent to a JPEG at 12, the file is the same level quality as it's PSD parent as expected/desired.
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Thanks Ann. Here's what I have:
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Working Spaces: RGB sRGB IEC...
Color Mgmt Polices: Convert to Working RGB
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Engine: Adobe ACE
Intent: Perceptual
Use Black Point Compensation (√)
Use Dither (√)
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Saving a SFW jpg at 100% yields a lighter image than doing a Save As jpg at 12.
I have both a HP LP3065 30" and Apple 22" Cinema display and the SFW processed file is lighter on both screens. Although the SFW Original is lighter on the HP than when looking at same on the Cinema. But the output is lighter and consistent viewing on both displays. Lighter than should be.
The Cinema is set to Apple's stock "Apple Cinema Display" profile and HP doesn't support us with a Mac calibrator, but I did the best I could with Apple's - in Prefs > Display.
Regardless, it seems that SFW is the problem (in my logical but limited color mgmt knowledge). I can save as a Save As jpg and get the expected color level consistent with the original on both my HP and Cinema. Isn't this the deciding factor? The consistency across both. Wouldn't that point to SFW being the problem, since Save As works correctly?
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Thanks to both.

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Hi Forum
I've just started using PS CS5 on a new iMac, and I'm having some problems with save for web colors. If I save an image (for example a shape with a solid color) then add it to a site I'm making then test in Safari, then take a screenshot with Grab, then open again in Photoshop, test the screenshot color with the eyedropper, the color value is slightly different to the original Photoshop file.
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Hi,
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Thanks for sharing. First let me say I think it's really great that you have shared all the documentation about these color issues. I read your page before posting here, and I tried each of the suggested solutions, and wasn't able to fix it. Maybe it is a problem with the Mac OS and the way it displays images non-color managed images. But it's not like all the images I view on Firefox are dull-just the ones I've edited, because they appeared different in CS3.
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We have written a CVI routine which converts the bayer color pattern encoded image from a camera to color. It works fairly well; after we do a white balance the RED, BLUE and GREEN LEDs on our instrument cluster we are testing look fine and consistant.
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Hello Cabbage,
I'm not 100% certain what's happening here, but I'll make a few guesses for what it's worth. The color shifting over time is probably real. LEDs will change color if the temperature changes. Diode lasers will sometimes have a spec on the datasheet that gives this shift in nm/degC or %/degC. I'm not sure if this is true for LEDs too.
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Some of the FAQs in bold red at the top of the main page are a little dated. Maybe some should be replaced with the "color looks washed-out when Save for Web" FAQ.

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When I change looping settings from "once" to "forever" when saving a gif it only loops once. I tried multiple times. In the end what got it to work was changing looping back and fourth from "once" to "forever" over and over and over until randomly the preview started looping. At that point when I saved it worked correctly.

I’m not really sure; it could be a Mac problem.
This is the Adobe statement on Lion:
Mac OS 10.7 has some exciting new features such as Autosave, Restore, Versioning, Full Screen Mode, and more multi-touch gestures. For Adobe applications to fully support these features, additional product development is required. Adobe is working to address this issue.
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Please let us know if you get it fixed.

Save to Web Color Shift with sRGB Working Space

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