Subtle Frame Rate Variation Effects

I am working on a project to create a silent film look. In particular I am after capturing issues associated with the frame rate variability associated with both cameras and projection at that time.
Some thoughts based on my reading...
Seems like two issues are at play. One is that the capture may have been at around 16 to 23 frames. It seems that unless people were going for comic effect they were not intentionally sped up by showing at a faster projection rate. In looking at some old classics by and large people seemed to try to match capture and projection.
However there is a “crispness” associated with the quality of the movement. My guess, I am totally new to this, is this results from 16 to 29 fps capture - less frames in a second to provide the perception of smooth movement.
My thinking is that I should see if I can convert my base footage to a sub 20 fps frame rate that covers the “crisp” movement aspect.
In looking at old films it seems like there is another dynamic at play. There seems to be the equivelent of wow and flutter in analog play back devices (phonographs, cassettes) in relation to the timing - it changes in a subtle way over time. Perhaps there is a way to introduce subtle timing “white noise” to simulate this effect.
I am just coming back to FCP and Motion after a several year layoff, so I am not completely familiar with ther current capabilities.
So with that my questions:
1) I dreamed up the above with respect to approach. Any merit to this? Other ideas?
2) Are their tools in fcp studio to do a quality frame conversion to sub 20 fps?
3) shooting. Initially I thought that I would want to shoot at 24p in order to get closer to sub 20 fps. Maybe it makes sense to shoot at 30p or 60p (my other two choices) to create more frames to get to a higher sub 20 result. Thoughts?
3) Thoughts / approach to getting wow and flutter to simulate variable projection and or crank camera capture?
Thanks in advance for any help.
Wayne Williams
Portland Oregon

As Mark said, the Bad Film filter does a lot of weave and frame jutter automatically.
Another thing to try in addition to Bad Film are the retiming behaviors in Motion, particularly the Stutter and Flash Frame behaviors, which can introduce the kind of timing errors you are talking about into playback of your video. You can also apply a Randomize parameter behavior to the Retime Value parameter to get more interesting random playback effects.

Similar Messages

Small frame rate variation between Motion output and reference video

Hello all,
Here's really wonky sort of question for all you Motion/post-production wizzes out there.
I have a 1920x1080 lower thirds project that I am trying to synch up to a HD up-res of the same dimensions. The problem is that the up-res has a frame rate of 23.976 and Motion only allows for a frame rate of 23.98, so the output synchs up ok at the begining of each act (I have the projects split up into acts), but the further down the time line you go, the more it drifts.
I've done the math and, for this particular project, the last title begins to appear at 00:20:09:11 in Motion, but appears in FCP at 00:20:09:07, a drift of 4 frames, 3 short of the 7 frames it is supposed to drift if you multiply the timecode in secconds by 23.976 and 23.98, but none the less, very annoying.
Is there anything that can be done to remedy the situation besides going back after the final Motion output and resynching manually? A three or four frame drift isn't a huge deal, but the largest act I have is 32 minutes, which sounds like a 6 or 7 frame drift. Again not really a huge deal, but I do have several lower thirds that need to be frame accurate (and really, it would be nice if they were all that way).
Thanks ahead of time.
-G
1.6 GHz G5 1.5GB RAM Mac OS X (10.4.3) Final Cut Studio

Yeah. It kind of stinks when you have to swap platforms just to finish a project. AE is also a pain for longform, so I don't want to mislead you.
I would imagine that Motion would be fine as long as you break the Project up in sections. My workflow is usually like this:
Generate a matte or slug in a layer above the footage to fill the area where I need the Super or Composite. This should be fairly short (below 1 minute if possible) I may also have to RAZOR out the footage below the matte to match the matte timing. Select the Matte and footage below it if you wish to see the footage and sound in Motion.
Select File/Send to/ Motion Project
Create a new Motion Project. Name it for the section I'm editing.
Add overlays and animations, filters, etc.
Save project
switch back to FCP and view/render from FCP.
then move on to next section of timeline that needs overlays, repeat the procedure. Just copy paste the layers from one Motion project to another if you want to maintain certain layer continuity.
This way, the Motion projects are managable size and you don't have to re-render the whole FCP project at once. The clips are not long enough for sync issues to appear. And Motion performs much better when the footage is short enough to load into RAM (sub 20seconds for most people).
Also, to get the most out of Motion, you might want to turn off one of your monitors if you use 2 of them. Motion can use far more VRAM from your graphics card if only one monitor is active.

After Effects CC import "Sequence Footage" frame rate settings in "Import" preferences

Just started using the new AE CC (v12 as Adobe will not refer to it as) I noticed one thing that seems to work differently from CS6 and that is in the preferences for import Sequence footage settings. It doesn't seem to work normally, at least for me. I don't know if this is an issue related to how AE CC works with the cloud but the dfault frame rate for sequence footage importing is 30fps. I am trying to import footage that is natively 23.97 at 24 fps. So like in CS6 I go to Preferences - Import - Sequence Footage - frame per second and change it from 30 to 24 frames per second. Closed the software, opened it back up, checked the settings and saw that they took, it still says 24 frames per second like I told it. But when I import a piece of 23.976 footage, it comes in at 23.976 as opposed to the 24 fps I set it as. Same goes for 30 fps footage, it comes in at 30 fps and not 24. User error is always my first assumption, I'm not proud i just want it to work, am I doing something wrong or just confused? Thanks for any help. p.s. help is not someone responding with, "I don't know" or "I don't have AECC yet". I know somebody is going to!

Hi Tim,
WOW! Thanks for the super-fast reply! As soon as I posted this I realised I should have mentioned that I am importing DPX files. I do import quicktimes as well but know that the footage import does not apply to a single file, only a sequence of files. But I still wonder if I may be either doing something wrong or am just a little confused. I have been using After Effects since CS3 doing compositing for film and I always use DPX sequences. I did a bunch of comparing and back and forth with AE CS6 and AECC while trying to figure this out. I always set my preferences up when I upgrade before I start working and I always set them up the same. I have been using CS6 since last July and it still works the same. What I did is imported five or six different DPX sequences, some were rendered out as 24 fps, some at 30 and some at 23.976. Assuming AE looks at the metadata to decide how to auto interpret, AE CC opened them all at their native frame rates of the just mentioned 24, 30 and 23.976 respectively, even though I told it to import at 24fps in the preferences. I also imported the same files in AE CS6 and they all opened at 24 fps like always. I know I can change the frame rate in the "Interpret footage" option, that is what I have been doing today so that I can work with footage in 24fps but since I have it set in the preferences to import image sequences at 24fps, I am perplexed as to why it does not do so, so I do not have to interpret the footage to my preferred frame rate, as is the case in AE CS6 as well as it was in CS 5.5 and CS 3. Since I was lucky enough to have an Adobe employee chime in Tim, I would be curious to see what you may find if you recreated this scenario. Would it be possible for you or someone at Adobe to set the sequence footage import frame rate to 24 fps in the preferences then try to open a piece of footage that is natively 23.976 fps in both AE CS6 and AE CC? Like I said, I certainly beleive I may be doing something wrong but I would be very curious to see what you find on your side. I would not be suprised if it imported at 24 fps in AE CS6 and 23.976 fps in AE CC.

After effects cs5 - frame rate mismatch wmv, flv, h264

Hi all,
I'm trying to render my compositions at 20 fps as wmv. Its important that they stay 20fps and that they are an exact length of time.
Since upgrading to cs5 I've been unable to do so as After Effects can no longer render wmv files at 20fps. By default it renders wmv at 25 fps so my animations are now 20% too quick.
According to adobe this is an issue with cs5 and wmv, flv and h264. It mentions a workaround online which involves creating a new output module
please see link.
http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/852/cpsid_85260.html
When I follow this advice and create a new output module the problem is worse, they now render at 30fps so are now 50% too quick.
For rendering wmv I am getting round this by rendering as Quicktime though I have yet to find a codec that offers file size and quality benefits of wmv.
But my animations also have to be rendered as h264 for viewing on a mobile device. After Effects can no longer render h264 at 20fps and I cant find a way round it.
Anybody got any ideas?
Also if h264, wmv and flv are unconstrained formats why would Adobe constrain them to certain frame rates in CS5. Seems like a basic feature thats been around for years has been disabled.
I tried tech support but they just sent me a link explaining what a frame rate is.
thanks
s

Thanks for reply Mylenium, much appreciated. I dont think I do mis understand completely however.
I understand some formats are constrained such as mpeg. And some wmv formats maybe constrained in some ways, but to quote Adobe online help
"In After Effects CS5, there is a known issue that causes WMV and FLV output frame rates to be constrained unnecessarily."
I have also found the same issue with H264 format.
the online help goes on to say
"By creating an output module template and applying this template to a render item, you bypass this bug."
Unfortunately in my experience creating an output module template does not bypass the bug, but it makes it worse.
The same projects worked fine and rendered correctly in CS3 as flv, h264 and wmv. The render issues occur in CS5. Like you say Adobe has the 64-bit environment to contend with.
When you say manually over ride the frame rates in the encoder panel I guess you are referring to Adobe Media Encoder which is an option and maybe would give better quality results too.
thanks
s

Ghosting effect - Is it a frame rate problem?

I've just made a music video lyric video (I'm still really new to movie editing) and there's this ghosting effect. Does anyone know what may cause it? Is it a frame rate problem, or the frame blend thing?
Here's the cliup on YouTube: (You can really see the ghosting when you watch it in HD.)
I'm using Adobe Premiere Pro CS4 on Windows 7 (32 bit)

hmm, looks like you need to read a few things maybe...to understand some stuff.
Here's some links I got from google for you
NTSC
Short for National Television System Committee. The NTSC is responsible for setting television and video standards in the United States (in Europe and the rest of the world, the dominant television standards are PAL and SECAM). The NTSC standard for television defines a composite video signal with a refresh rate of 60 half-frames (interlaced) per second. Each frame contains 525 lines and can contain 16 million different colors.
The NTSC standard is incompatible with most computer video standards, which generally use RGB video signals
============
info about aspect ratios... and better to scale down than up...or just stay the same as source.
http://www.techsmith.com/tutorial-camtasia-understanding-dimensions-prior.html
================
Soooo, you didnt export ntsc and it looks like you upscaled to 1080p but a different fps than original also.
In gereral if you start at say 24fps and make it 30fps, your editor has to "make" new frames ( add 6 per second ) and it does that by creating new frames out of what you have on timeline. Sometimes a VBR 2 pass will give you better results than 1 pass, but you have to experiment a bit ( just export small section of timeline for tests...and try to use area where you see your "ghosting" ).
good luck

Creating a Gif is different frame rate

If I have an uncompressed .AVI file that I created in After Effects CS5.5 which is 23.976 fps, and load it in Adobe Media Encoder CS5.5, and tell it to create a .GIF of it, at an output fps of 23.976, when I load the created .GIF into Adobe After Effects it tells me the frame rate is 25 fps and there is a black frame padded on the end. I want the frame rate of the GIF to be what I ask it to be, ie. 23.976, with no additional black frames.
Here's what happened with screenshots:
1. I load the uncompressed AVI file that was created in Adobe After Effects CS5.5 into Adobe Media Encoder CS5.5. Note below that Adobe Media Encoder is saying that the source clip is 23.976 fps, and that the export settings are to create an animated GIF at 23.976 fps.
2. After Adobe Media Encoder CS5.5 has said "done" (Encoding Completed Succesfully) for this export to a .GIF, if I take that .GIF file that Adobe Media Encoder has just created into Adobe After Effects CS5.5, this is what it says:
As can be seen above, Adobe After Effects CS5.5 is saying the GIF file that Adobe Media Encoder CS5.5 has just encoded is actually 25 fps, not 23.976 fps like I told it to be exported as. Also, the GIF Adobe Media Encoder has created is 10 frames long, whereas my original uncompressed AVI is 9 frames long.
Edit: I've just been reading up on the GIF format and it seems it doesn't store a frame rate but instead stores a frame delay, which is in hundredths of a second. If this is just an integer, is this the reason for the displayed frame rate discrepancy, ie. 1 frame at 23.976 fps would be 4.1708 hundredths of a second I think, and 1 frame at 25 fps would be 4 hundredths of a second I think - both rounded to the nearest integer would be 4 hundredths of a second so would the frame delay be set to "4" for both 23.976 fps and 25 fps? (there is also the fact that some short time will be taken for the drawing of the frame)
Though even with the above, it shouldn't be increasing the amount of output frames. It converts it correctly (no additional frames) if I use VirtualDub to convert the AVI to GIF instead of Adobe Media Encoder CS5.5.

Thanks. Could you get them to also check other parts of the code too. eg. when I had a work area set in Adobe After Effects CS5.5 and then loaded that project into Adobe Media Encoder (dynamic link etc.) and rendered just the work area I think it was about a frame out then too - I don't think it was a GIF in that case but another type (maybe AVI/H264).

Help with sequence settings in final cut for project with 2 different frame rates.

I really need help with this one! I finished editing a wedding video and realized after exporting that it was filmed in two different frame rates. This has happened before but I converted the footage to match and fixed the problem. In this case, the footage is part 30fps and part 60fps. The majority of it was filmed in 30fps. I cannot convert the 60 to 30 without the slow motion effect which I do not need so I have to find a way to burn this to a DVD without it looking messed up! The video was shot with two Canon 7ds if that helps anything. The first sequence I set at 29.97 and exported as a quicktime movie and all the footage filmed in 60 looked perfect and the footage in 30 looked jittery. Then I tried the sequence at 59.97 and it switched. The footage filmed at 30 looked good and the 60 was cropped in. I am so confused! Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!

Thanks for your help Michael! The frame rates are 29.97 1920 x 1080 and 59.94 1280 x 720. I did a control click on the clips in final cut and viewed the item properties/format to find this info. The Canon 7d is a DSLR but we use it for video. As for my workflow, the first thing I do is import the footage onto my computer and then drag the clips into mpeg streamclip. I choose apple prores 422 and uncheck the interlaced box. Once this is done I import the .mov files into final cut. The sequence automatically sets itself to whatever clip I drag in first so it originally set as 29.97. When I finished editing wedding video, I export it to a quicktime movie and choose whatever settings match the sequence, in this case apple prores 422 1920 x 1080 30p. Once that is done I use iDVD to burn the discs.
I knew something was wrong when I watched the quicktime movie and all the 30fps footage was jittery and most of the cross dissolves looked strange. That's when I figured out the footage was at two different frame rates. What I don't understand is why whatever the sequence is set at in final cut, the clips of the opposite frame rate look right but the clips set at the matching frame rate don't???

Different frame rate in movie mode? iPhone 4

I noticed that my iPhone shoots video clips with different frame rate from time to time. I suppose it slows frame rate on dark shots. For now all of my daylight shots are 30 fps, while night or dark ones are 25 and 24. This makes it hard to edit clips in iMovie for example, because difference in frame rate causes strobe motion effect on output.
!http://pics.livejournal.com/brain_away/pic/000040rc!
!http://pics.livejournal.com/brain_away/pic/00003s3c!
Anybody have the same?
For reliable results I would suggest to shoot two clips: one in sunny daylight conditions, another with ordinary room lightning, maybe a little darker than normal.
Please let me know of the results. Thanks

Doesn't seem to be just a Quicktime bug:
!http://pics.livejournal.com/brain_away/pic/00005gw1!
+Created on: 12.09.2010 22:42:50 Московское летнее время
Report for file: IMG_0206.MOV
General / Container Stream #1
Total Video Streams for this File.................1
Total Audio Streams for this File.................1
Video Codecs Used.................................AVC
Audio Codecs Used.................................AAC LC-PS
File Format.......................................MPEG-4
Play Time.........................................10s 193ms
Total File Size...................................12.9 MiB
Total Stream BitRate..............................10.6 Mbps
Encoded with......................................4.1
Encoding Library..................................Apple QuickTime
Video Stream #1
Codec (Human Name)................................AVC
Codec (FourCC)....................................avc1
Codec [email protected]
Frame Width.......................................1 280 pixels
Frame Height......................................720 pixels
Frame Rate........................................24.697 fps
Total Frames......................................251
Display Aspect Ratio..............................16:9
Scan Type.........................................Progressive
Color Space.......................................YUV
Codec Settings (Summary)..........................1 Ref Frames
QF (like Gordian Knot)............................0.465
Codec Settings (CABAC)............................No
Codec Settings (Reference Frames).................1
Video Stream Length...............................10s 163ms
Video Stream BitRate..............................10.6 Mbps
Video Stream BitRate Mode.........................VBR
Bit Depth.........................................8 bits
Video Stream Size.................................12.8 MiB (99%)
Video Stream Title................................Core Media Video
Date of Original Encoding.........................UTC 2010-09-12 04:13:59
Color Primaries...................................BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4, SMPTE RP177
Transfer Characteristics..........................BT.709-5, BT.1361
Matrix Coefficients...............................BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4 709, SMPTE RP177
Audio Stream #1
Codec.............................................AAC
Codec (FourCC)....................................40
Audio Stream Length...............................10s 193ms
Audio Stream BitRate..............................64.0 Kbps
Audio Stream BitRate Mode.........................CBR
Number of Audio Channels..........................2
Audio Channel's Positions.........................Front: L R
Sampling Rate.....................................44.1 KHz
Audio Stream Size.................................79.4 KiB (1%)
Audio Stream Title................................Core Media Audio
Date of Original Encoding.........................UTC 2010-09-12 04:13:59+
+Created on: 12.09.2010 22:43:06 Московское летнее время
Report for file: IMG_0194.MOV
General / Container Stream #1
Total Video Streams for this File.................1
Total Audio Streams for this File.................1
Video Codecs Used.................................AVC
Audio Codecs Used.................................AAC LC-PS
File Format.......................................MPEG-4
Play Time.........................................16s 579ms
Total File Size...................................21.0 MiB
Total Stream BitRate..............................10.6 Mbps
Encoded with......................................4.1
Encoding Library..................................Apple QuickTime
Video Stream #1
Codec (Human Name)................................AVC
Codec (FourCC)....................................avc1
Codec [email protected]
Frame Width.......................................1 280 pixels
Frame Height......................................720 pixels
Frame Rate........................................29.970 fps
Total Frames......................................496
Display Aspect Ratio..............................16:9
Scan Type.........................................Progressive
Color Space.......................................YUV
Codec Settings (Summary)..........................1 Ref Frames
QF (like Gordian Knot)............................0.383
Codec Settings (CABAC)............................No
Codec Settings (Reference Frames).................1
Video Stream Length...............................16s 550ms
Video Stream BitRate..............................10.6 Mbps
Video Stream BitRate Mode.........................VBR
Bit Depth.........................................8 bits
Video Stream Size.................................20.9 MiB (99%)
Video Stream Title................................Core Media Video
Date of Original Encoding.........................UTC 2010-09-12 02:45:06
Color Primaries...................................BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4, SMPTE RP177
Transfer Characteristics..........................BT.709-5, BT.1361
Matrix Coefficients...............................BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4 709, SMPTE RP177
Audio Stream #1
Codec.............................................AAC
Codec (FourCC)....................................40
Audio Stream Length...............................16s 579ms
Audio Stream BitRate..............................64.0 Kbps
Audio Stream BitRate Mode.........................CBR
Number of Audio Channels..........................2
Audio Channel's Positions.........................Front: L R
Sampling Rate.....................................44.1 KHz
Audio Stream Size.................................129 KiB (1%)
Audio Stream Title................................Core Media Audio
Date of Original Encoding.........................UTC 2010-09-12 02:45:06+

Export Quicktime = stalling / frame rate / dropped frames

Firstly this issue isn't news. It appears it has existed since 2002 at least on these forums and Apple has done nothing.
Exporting to Quicktime:
1) Keynote makes up what seem to be consistent random frame rates on export
- Codec doesn't matter. Photo JPG, Intermediate, 8bit 422, H264
- You can set the frame rate in export / custom / settings it doesn't matter
- Having no video on a slide or having video on a slide doesn't change the problem...
- The last two items do have more information to complete their story
- If you do have a video on slide at say 25fps and export (at same rate) the random will stabilise
but it will stabilise to something bizarre, such as 23.69.
- So Keynote can wreck your frame rate it will drop frames, or even add frames while dropping
others. It is deeply sophisticated in how it destroys stuff on export.
Result
- is a stuttering output if embed video on a slide with a wrecked frame rate
- and a random frame rate if you don't have a video embed
2) The video stalls between slides
- Keynote seems to play a trick by making a single frame span multiple frames
- At the start of the first slide this seems to vary. The first frame can be between 7 and 33
frames depending on some strange internal logic only known to Keynote
- Between slides it will hold the last frame of the exiting slide usually for 7 frames and hold
the first frame of the entering slide for usually the same amount.
- No amount of change to settings such as transition delay, adding a transition, self play etc
will effect this stalling from what I can tell.
- You can analyse the reality of the issue by dropping the resulting file into Quicktime 7 and
changing the video window "time code" display to frames by clicking on it and single framing
through the video. I have Quicktime Pro for the record.
Notes:
- I have every update installed and am running 10.6.2
- I have tried it on two machines, one a clean build, server or client
- Playing the presentation direct in Keynote does not present any of the noted issues
- I have spent the better part of two weeks on the issue trying all sorts of combinations
- Video of different frames rates, sizes, codecs. All useless, don't bother.
Outcome:
- Keynote is completely useless unless you just want to play a presentation in it
- Dropped frames, stuttering video, stalling, mangled frame rates, fake frames
Solutions that aren't:
- One suggestion for video embeds is to enter a strange custom frame rate. For example a
24fps original turns into a 23.69 export, if you up the frame rate to 24.3 the resulting export
is 24fps.
This is a truly hit and miss affair and will require a lot of testing to nail it. Unfortunately I
tested the resulting video frame count in Quicktime against the original video and...
The amount of frames is not the same. Part of my assumption is that the stalled pad frames
are being considered by Keynote and it drops some frames to fake the same length, that at
least -seems- to be part of the result, but it doesn't account for all the lost frames.
- I have also tried just having one slide and exporting that. The same things happen regardless
How Al Gore managed to make "inconvenient truth" using Keynote is a complete mystery. Maybe on Tiger with some old version it used to work, yet from the forums it would appear it has never worked. This piece of software is a clear case of "it just doesn't work"
I hope you find this and stop hurting yourself trying to make this. I might hurt on a bit longer yet.

I can't answer in detail (I started with version 6, which I haven't used in years, so don't know what v5 did) but... a general comment
Software that old is very likely going to struggle trying to edit a VOB/MPG file copies from a DVD
If you are digitizing by playing the DVD through a conversion device you should end up with DV AVI which should edit well
Just what kind of files are you trying to edit?

23.976 frame rate explained

This post was triggered from this this thread:
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=4741388#4741388
I just thought it best to start a new one
Okay iSchwartz, with the speed of a flying bullet, and with help from my fellow members of the IBS (Institute of Broadcast Sound - in the UK), I think I have some answers...
24P is indeed simply video at 24frames per second with the "P" meaning Progressive scan. Its a video format invented to be compatible with film. It also means that the footage will have more of a "film look" when its converted to TV frame rates for broadcast as it will have the same process applied to it as film footage.
As to where 23.976 fps comes in (with regards to Logic) is rather more vague!
(warning - the following contains some speculation!)
As all will know because film is shot at 24fps it needs a special conversion process to be shown on an NTSC TV of 29.97fps. The process could just speed the film up but it would look funny and so they sort of duplicate some of the film's frames instead, to get the frame rate increased. The process used would result in a frame rate of 30fps so to bring it in line with the (cumbersome) NTSC frame rate they have to slow the film down slightly (by 0.1%) before they "scan" in the film's frames to make video.
...and guess what a 0.1% speed reduction of 24fps results in? Yes - 23.976!
so...
23.976 is the frame rate of the telecine machine when playing film to transfer to NTSC tv. The process involves slowing the 24fps film by 0.1% to 23.976 and applying a 2:3 pulldown picture process, resulting in NTSC's frame rate of 29.97fps
Now the question is why would you want Logic to work in 23.976fps?
It is possible (I don't know for sure) that when you shoot with film (ie 24fps), destined for tv that the programme is edited at 23.976, ready for the telecine process, and so this is the frame rate used during the post production process - As it is the time reference used in the edit then we need logic to work at this rate too so we're all in time.
It is also possible that the latest HD video cameras provide a shooting frame rate of 23.976 fps so that the "slow down" process of the past is not required.
Having said that to view the 23.976 fps pictures on telly the video needs to be converted to 30fpsDrop - or you need a display that can work at this unusual frame rate. I am not sure what the implication of all this would be for the musician "working to picture".
One thing I would say, is that musicians are not alone in having much confusion with frame rates and time code, especially now Hi def has arrived. I would strongly advise double checking with "production", particularly the dubbing editor, if that frame rate requested ~really~ is the right one!
I hope I haven't confused the issue even more with all that! Don't take any of this as gospel as I am still learning too. I trust someone will provide corrections and additions.

Rohan,
I agree in so far as the musician should not have to worry about the technical aspects of picture, but the composer is working within a team of people who have to be able to communicate effectively. the composer is also part of the production's overall workflow and so the composer's work methods can be dependent on productions.
To answer you points individually...
- when the telecine is created, and then sent for offline editing, it is the offline edit that you receive with the BITC or the striped LTC (rare these days) that should be your guide. obviously in the states with the confusing NTSC format, it is important to be sure what format they have used in the offline process, but ultimately it is the production facility to ensure you have a video edit that you can work to
Your first sentence says it all. If the offline edit is in 23.976 then presumably this is what you'll get sent. I have no idea how this will get delivered as the format would not work on video tape, you wouldn't be able to view it on a standard TV either. You could view it as a quicktime movie. That is the only way I can think of.
I agree it should be up to production to provide you with what you can work with but how far must they accommodate? I doubt anyone would be too happy providing U-matic tapes these days. For my last job I wanted QT movies on a DVD-R but I had to settle for DV tapes and capture myself. Lets face it, as technology gets cheaper and more accessible we are increasingly expected to be able to handle all those advances!
- so the music you create can either sync to a master clock (which is rare other than word clock which is not for video syncing anyway) or simply to the QT or VHS that you have been provided with which should have standard frame rates. you simply compose your music based on that sync
I don't know what you mean by "master clock" in this context, and as you point out word clock has no timing information at all and is irrelevant in a timecode discussion. Yes you work to the movie you've been given, but what if its using 23.976fps? If it is, it wont be on VHS - and, you wont be able to sync properly to it in Logic as Logic doesn't work with 23.976
If production provides you with a "special copy" in say standard NTSC 29.97fps then the editors timecode will be different to yours. You wont be able to talk timecodes with them over the phone for example. For them to do this production will have to convert the footage specially for you using 3:2pulldown telecine process (so the film plays at the right speed) and I'm not sure they would pay for that!
- the issue is more critical in the dubb, but generally 1 second of music at whatever frame rate is still 1 second of music. when you send your music in it is almost never smpte locked unless you have delivered via a timecoded DAT something which is very rare these days. basically it simply measures the sample rate and then syncs within the DAW in the dub
1 second in NTSC's 29.97fps is 1second at 23.976fps which is 1 second in PAL's 25fps too;-) Its the number of frames within one second that has changed. The problem is the format of the movie. you can play it in QT but not on the telly and Logic doesn't have a time base to match with it. It is likely that logic will be able to follow the movie in QT (not sure of that), or "chase" it, but Logic's own smpte display will not match the movie's BITC. Indeed all of logic's time references will not match the movie's.
when you send your music in it is almost never smpte locked unless you have delivered via a timecoded DAT something which is very rare these days. basically it simply measures the sample rate and then syncs within the DAW in the dub
Ever heard of BWF? Bounce your finished music in logic as a WAV file and you actually get a timecode stamped "Broadcast WAV" file: a file that has the SMPTE time of where the music starts in the film. The timing info is embedded in the file. All the dub mixer has to do is press a key-command to place this file in the right place in the film. I worked this way on my last project. (Its also how logic can place any audio file into "its original recording position")
Without using timecode I'm wondering how you tell "the dub" where the music should go in the film? - I'm genuinely curious. In the past when delivering music without timecode I would still say, in a written note for eg, the track starts at some timecode point (as referenced to the BITC for eg). This is why the composers timecode needs to be the same as the dub/editor's!
- it is simply important for the people sending you their film to agree how many frames consitute their second. if you have a VHS playout from the offline, you should work to whatever format that VHS or DVD comes in; NTSC or PAL. it's not your job to worry about the film to offline telecine
A nice thought in theory:-)
It shouldn't be our job to worry about such things (bars, beats, keys and harmony are enough for me!) but we may not have the choice if we want the job!
Don't get me wrong here Rohan. I don't profess to understanding all this stuff properly and I have never been asked to work in 23.976fps. I went down this line of enquiry to see if I needed to know about it! Perhaps you are right and production will supply a special version for the composer - but I'd like to know if this is the case as I like to have a basic grasp of the overall production process. I'd love to know of anyone who has had to work in this frame rate and how typical it is becoming (if at all).

How to export a flash project with a changing frame rate to a video

I have a Flash project that is a series of roughly 1000 images. The result of the images is a simple animation, and there is music imported on a separate layer.
There are moments in the music that I wanted to line up with certain frame changes, and there are sections of the music that I wanted to match up with a faster (double-time) frame rate.
I used this code in several places in the a code layer:
stage.frameRate = x;
The result is exactly what I want in SWF -- the animation speeds up and slows down at the exact right moments to match up with the music track, but it seems like it's just not possible to export this variable frame rate project to a video file?
According to the accepted answer on this post: http://forums.adobe.com/message/4019538, it seems that:
The export function in Flash Pro doesn't transcribe *frames*, rather it plays the Flash animation and records it like a camcorder
If that's true, then I would think there is a way to record a variable frame rate project into a video -- does anybody know if this is possible?

That or Premiere would both get the job done. After Effects might be more desirable as it has a feature called Time Remapping (right-click on the video layer, Time->Enable Time Remapping). You can add keyframes to any point in a video and then drag them around to speed up or slow down the video. That'll allow for very precise tweaks.
Finally all I'd suggest is when you jump into your next project, make a quick dummy test project to see if the software you're using is easily capable of producing what you want. It'll solve the headache of completing the project only to land where you are now. Now you know Flash won't play nicely with scripts and Export Movie. If your desired end result was always a video I'd probably use video editing software to make the video. There's some free stuff out there if you really look, but no, it won't be as nice as After Effects or Premiere by any stretch. Although when you see how amazing After Effects is, you'll probably want to buy it .

HP Pavilion Slimline s5-1414 Accidentally changed frame rate.

Hi I'm new to this computer got it earlier in the year but never reaally tried it till now. My problem is that I changed the framerate from 60 to 120 fps and now i have no video. How do i fix this? I tried 2 different monitors one which is a pretty old one and the other was an Lg tv which states invalid format. the monitors also seem to have not worked while I'm starting up the computer what should I do to fix this?

Hi phz19,
Welcome to the HP Community! Are you referring about the refresh rate on your monitor? Frame rate is something that you can't really modify directly other then changing some settings which will effect it but you can change the refresh rate directly. Do you get anything on the screen at all when you turn on the Pavilion or does it just stay blank?
Thank you,
Please click “Accept as Solution ” if you feel my post solved your issue.
Click the “Kudos Thumbs Up" on the right to say “Thanks” for helping!
Thank you,
BHK6
I work on behalf of HP

Mixing Frame Rates and Creating Old Film Look?

Hello, I'm working with AVCHD footage which is 59.94 fps and have made my sequence settings at this frame rate. I've dragged in a few clips 23.98fps, 24fps, 25fps and 29.97fps, I'm attempting to give it a old film look so was going to render out at 14 fps as this is what 8mm is filmed at, I've never worked with mixed rates so any advice as to whether this is going to work? Should I have my sequence setting at my highest frame rate and the majority of the video is 59.94fps? would it work exporting at 14 or 16 fps?

I've never worked with mixed frame rates, but for the old film look, I like the Posterize Time effect set to 18 (one of the two standards for Super 8 that my camera had) and use Magic Bullet Misfire.

Variable Frame Rate

If I have clips that were recorded at different frame rates, say 24fps and 60fps, and I put them in the same video project, how does PE11 handle this? Will it cause issues or lower the quality?

AudreyRose2012
Slow motion for your 1080p60 will be achieved in either of three ways in Expert workspace (project preset no part of this):
a. Interpret Footage. Frame Rate section of the Interpret Footage dialog. Right click file in Project Assets, select Interpret Footage, and, in Frame Rate section, dot Assume this frame rate, and type in your wanted frame rate)
b. Time Stretch. Set Duration for less than 100%. This will increase the length of the video and apply a slow motion effect.
c. Time Remapping.
http://tv.adobe.com/watch/learn-premiere-elements-11/time-remapping-with-adobe-premiere-el ements-11/
Until proven otherwise, I would use the
NTSC AVCHD AVCHD 1080p60 project preset
and apply Interpret Footage to that video for which you want a slow motion effect. You could also consider Time Remapping feature with or without Frame Blend option that is built into Time Remapping.
I never use the frame rate same as source for exporting. It typically does it own thing under those circumstance and that is not always the frame rate that should have been. I would take the time to specify the frame rate in export along with all the rest of the export settings.
If you are going to upload your Expert workspace Timeline to Vimeo, I would try the settings suggested by SG...that is, Publish+Share/Computer/AVCHD with Presets = VimeoHD. The default there is 1280 x 720, so I would customize the setting under the Advanced Button/Video Tab of that preset to give 1920 x 1080. Set the Level and Profile first, so that you can type in the 1920 x 1080 values. Then you would upload the AVCHD.mp4 file that you obtain and upload it to Vimeo at the Vimeo web site.
In the following Export Settings dialog for that export. I have the frame rate set for 59.94 progressive frames per second. Depending on your project plan, you can reset that to your preference
If you decide to upload your Expert workspace Timeline to Vimeo via the program's Publish+Share/Online/Vimeo with Presets = VimeoHD, you cannot change the 1280 x 720 resolution there.
Please review all comments and let SG know of your progress.
Thanks.
ATR

Most efficient way of changing still image frame rates?

I'm using Premiere CS5.5 and have been having issues with the audio/video going out of sync when I upload my video to Vimeo (it's not out of sync prior to uploading it...it only happens after they transcode it). The Vimeo support staff says the problem is that I'm using a variable frame rate, but since there isn't any option (to my knowledge) to choose a constant or variable framerate in Premiere/Adobe Media Encoder, I think I have identified the problem. The primary footage that I shot with is 23.976 fps and that is what my sequence settings and output settings have been, but I also have a lot of still images that I'm using for b-roll, which I finally noticed are 29.97 fps. I changed the Intermediate Media Timebase setting to 23.976 fps in the preferences, but my question now is if there is an efficient way to change the frame rate of all those still images without having to re-import them and re-apply all the various motion effects/key framing that I've already spent a lot of time on?
Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Yeah, I downloaded MediaInfo to explore some of the various versions that I've rendered in my effort to get something that works correctly on Vimeo, and depending on the encoder I saw some of what Ann posted, but I also looked at one on MediaInfo that I had rendered through Adobe Media Encoder and it had a Constant frame rate mode of 23.976, yet I remember watching that one on Vimeo at the time and it was still out of sync--Mediainfo says that version has a variable audio bit rate though, but to my knowledge there isn't an option in AME to choose a constant audio bit rate.
I agree that it's an issue on Vimeo's side, but the chances of them getting their **** together in a timely fashion seem low. The frustrating thing is that I can watch documentary style videos on Vimeo that I know were edited and compressed through Premiere/AME, yet they don't have any audio sync issues. The difference that I noticed between one of those videos and mine is the use of still images in my video. As you can see from an image I uploaded earlier, the default frame rate for still images when I imported them was 29.97 until I changed it yesterday, but it didn't update the images I had already imported. So I'm wondering if there is a way to change the frame rate of those still images without having to re-import the images and make all my edits/key framing all over again.

Subtle Frame Rate Variation Effects

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