Color management detective needed!

I need help with some color management issues I'm having.
I've noticed that RAW images imported into Aperture (both 1.0.1 and 1.1) look very different than those imported into PS2 via ACR. I've been told that this is simply a result of the different conversion algorithims each program uses.
However, since I don't see a lot of discussion about that here I began to wonder if the differences I see between PS2 and Aperture are unusual. Also, I've noticed that when I export a RAW file from Aperture or PS2 as a JPEG, the colors of the resulting files look slightly different than they did before export (no adjustments were made in either program). Finally, when I upload the exported JPEGs to a website, the colors change once again!
This is very frustrating, because I spend a lot of time adjusting the image and finessing the colors... only to see it significantly altered when I put it on the web. I'd like to better understand what's happening here and have more control over the process.
So I've created a website with various examples of what I'm talking about. I imported the same RAW file into Aperture and PS2 without adjustments. Then I used OS X's Grab application to take a screen shot of how the image appears in each program. Then I exported the image as a JPEG from both PS2 and Aperture, using Adobe RGB as the embedded profile in both cases. (Note: my monitor profile is a custom profile created by EyeOne) Then I uploaded the JPEGs to a website I often display photos on, and then took a screen shot of how both the Aperture-exported and PS2-exported images appear on the web.
Please look at http://web.mac.com/chriskresser/iWeb/Site/Last%20Roll.html
So, my questions are:
1. Why does the color vary so dramatically between Aperture and PS2? Is this normal, i.e. do you experience the same thing? Is there something I can do about it?
2. Why do the exported JPEGs look different than their RAW master's? Again, is this normal and is there anything I can do about it?
3. Why do the JPEGs uploaded to the web look different than the JPEGs opened in Preview or PS2?
I've tried to standardize my color workspaces as much as possible, but I'm not sure I've done it correctly. In Aperture, onscreen proofing is off and I'm just using the default colorspace (which I understand is a wide-gamut RGB?). In PS2 I am using Adobe RGB as the working colorspace. My monitor profile is the custom calibrated Eye-One profile.
I really appreciate any help you can offer. I'm pulling my hair out trying to get this straight.
Thanks,
Chris

Thanks to everyone for helping me figure this out.
Let me make sure I understand. In Aperture, when I go to export a JPEG for web use or printing from another application with my home inkjet I select sRGB as the color space.
In PS2, I use Adobe RGB as my working color space, but when I save a JPEG for the web, I change the profile to sRGB before exporting. Do I use the "Edit>Convert to profile..." command for this? Or should I be using sRGB as my working color space in PS2 since most of my output is for the web and home inkjet? (There are occasionally times I send files to a printer for output, though).
The Aperture RAW and PS2 RAW look significantly different on my monitor too, not just on the web. I'm using the default ACR settings - do you think they need to be customized for my camera? I see what you are saying... the ACR RAW does look much brighter than the Aperture version and kind of washed out. Not sure how to fix that though...

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  • Vista color management & CS3

    Two weeks ago I wrongly faulted my new Dell 2707WFP monitor for its high contrast and saturation after many failed profiling attempts using the Spyder2Pro with the updated Vista software. I'm still at a loss as to why images are dark and overly saturated in Photoshop, Bridge and Lightroom. They were all fine on an older Dell system running XP home and CS2. I've gone so far as to purposely inflict various gamma curve settings in Spyder to bump up the low end luminance but resulting profiles still show images clipped in the low end and overall saturated even as the desktop and the PS interface turn a sickly pale.
    I'm new to CS3 and Lightroom and so I'm not sure if the following is normal. When I view a NEW batch of images that were not previously viewed in Bridge, they are normal looking, however when I click on a thumbnail, it then reverts to the same garish contrasty version that I see full size in the above adobe software when opened. The same thing happens in the WINDOWS PHOTO GALLERY viewer but NOT in WINDOWS EXPLORER. In Explorer the thumbs are as they should be...normal, and if I open them in Microsoft OFFICE PICTURE MANAGER or in Quicktime PICTUREVIEWER, they open as normal images.
    All this sounds like a profile issue of some kind, but as far as I know, everything appears to be set correctly in both PS and the profiling software. However, Im not sure about the system settings regarding profiles. In the Windows COLOR folder all the profiles are where they should be and I can select which one to load using the Spyder Profile Chooser. And again, I do restart PS when I change a profile. Could this be some kind of Vista bug??
    Other notes:
    If I do a screen shot and paste it back into PS, it turns DARKER than the original file.
    When I do additional calibrations I restart PS to load the latest profile.
    All files tagged sRGB and in sRGB workspace. PS shows this correct space and likewise the correct monitor profile in COLOR SETTINGS
    ATI CATALYST CONTROL CENTER fails to run on bootup so windows shuts it down. No fix that I can find for this.
    Running Vista Home Premium on a Dell Inspiron 530 E6550, 4GB memory, Radeon HD2600XT
    Thanks again for your help!

    Found this on the DATACOLOR site in their SUPPORT CENTER:
    Incorrect Color outside Photoshop on Wide Gamut Display
    Solution >>I just purchased a Dell 2407 HC display, considered wide gamut and the spyder 3 elite. I've used the spyder 3 to calibrate the monitor. In photoshop whenever I "Save for Web" or "Save as" in the sRGB color space, I wind up with over saturated oranges and reds. I'm needing to save in the sRGB for web work. My working color space is set to sRGB which looks fine when editting in photoshop, but as soon as I save it out of photoshop the reds and oranges are over saturated. I purchased the spyder 3 because of the wide gamut support, is there something I'm missing in calibration?
    The display profile is not at fault here. The ICC profile for the display tells any application that uses color management what the color values for the display are. Thus Photoshop, which is using the profile, corrects for the colors on screen, giving correct results. A non-color managed application (such as Internet Explorer for Windows) would not use the profile and thus the colors would be oversaturated on your wide gamut screen. This is not the fault of the profile (that would make the color look wrong in Photoshop, where the profile is being used), but the lack of a profile (which makes the color look wrong in non-color managed applications).
    This is the problem with using a Wide Gamut display for viewing in non-color managed applications. A typical gamut display is not color correct in such applications, but is at least approximately correct; a wide gamut display is noticably oversatured in some colors. On the Mac many applications, including web browsers and OS utilities, are color managed, so it is less of an issue than on Windows.
    Article Details
    Article ID: 723
    Created On: 10 Jan 2008 07:31 PM
    So if the color is off outside PS, then its not the fault of the profile. My problem is the image is off INSIDE PS, and by the same reasoning, then the profile is at fault. If the profile is to blame, is this a Spyder issue or Vista issue? So far noone seems to know anything including Adobe tech support and Dell. Been waiting 2 wks to hear from the Spyder people.
    Would really appreciate some input on this. thanks.

  • Printing with HP B9180 and Photoshop Elements 8 and Color Management

     I've got a bit of confusion about certain settings in the printing process and I've posted a rather long discussion of my 'issues' and confusion.  I hope someone can give me some guidance here.  I've seen a lot of these issues addressed in many places but I can't seem to find an integrated response.  Thanks to anyone who takes the time to read and respond.
    Color Management Questions
    My problems started when I was getting pictures that were too dark from my HP 9180 printer after having gotten very nice prints for a long time.  I had obviously started to do something differently inadvertently.  The only thing I think that is different is that I got a new 23 inch monitor, which does produce much brighter on-screen images.  So, I started to do some research and know just enough about color management to be slightly confused and have some questions that I hope someone can give me some help with.
    Equipment Background
    I use both a Canon 20D and a Canon PowerShot SD600 camera. Both have the default color space as sRGB, although the 20D can be also set as RGB.
    I also use Photoshop Elements 8, where there are a variety of settings possible for printing.
    My monitor is an HP S2331, whose color space is sRGB and cannot be reset to RGB (I think) except for temperature; the default is 6500K.
    My printer is an HP Photosmart Pro B9180 Printer, where there are also a variety of settings possible.
    I’m running XP-Pro.
    Here’s Where I Get Confused
    Everything I have read about color management (various web sites, forums, books, etc) says to have the image, monitor, and printer all in the same color space.
    Everything I read about PSE 8 (same sources) says to set PSE 8 to ‘Always Optimize for Printing’ under Edit>Color Settings in order to get the best prints.  This displays photos based on the Adobe RGB color space. 
    I am taking pictures in sRGB, and telling PSE 8 to process them in RGB by selecting ‘Always Optimize for Printing’.  Is this something I should be concerned about?  Should I reset my camera for RGB?
    Further, by selecting ‘Always Optimize for Printing’, I am setting PSE 8 for RGB while my monitor displays sRGB.  Is this an important issue or is it also much ado about technicalities that an amateur should not worry about?  It does violate the ‘keep them in the same color space’ rule.
    Next, when I go to File>Print and get the Print window and then do the Page Setup and Select Printer, I then go to More Options in the lower left of the window.  Under the More Options window, I select Color management and select Photoshop Elements Manages Colors.  Next, there is Image Space, which is fixed and not subject to selection from a drop down menu. 
    I understand that this is the image space of the image I took with my camera and that information is embedded in the image.  Correct?
    Next, there is Printer Profile.  But, from what I have read, this is where the IEC profile of the paper being printed on is supposed to be selected, isn’t it? 
    Shouldn’t this more appropriately be called Paper Profile, or Printing Media Profile?  Further, this drop down menu appears to be somewhat erratic, sometimes showing all of the paper profiles I believe are loaded, sometimes not. It also shows listings such as Working RGB-Adobe RGB (1988), Adobe RGB 1988, Dot Gain 10%, 15%.... along with a lot of paper profiles.  Aren’t those profiles unnecessary here?
    I’ve used both Relative Colorimetric and Perceptual Rendering and am happy with either one. 
    Next, when I go to Printer Preferences, in order to “…disable color management in the printer preferences dialog”, under the Color Tab, I select Application Managed Colors from the Color management drop down menu, and also have the option of selecting ColorSmart/sRGB and Adobe RGB (1988).  
    Is there any time when I should use either ColorSmart/sRGB or Adobe RGB  (1988)?  If I were staying with my camera’s sRGB setting, given the fact that the monitor is sRGB, would the appropriate selections be ‘Printer Manages Colors’ and ‘ColorSmart/sRGB’?
    Finally, under the Features Tab, I go to look for the same paper I selected under Printer Profile (Question 4 above).  If it is one of the pre-loaded (by HP) profiles, it is there, but if it is a profile I downloaded, say for an Ilford paper, it isn’t listed, and I need to guess at an equivalent type of paper to select.
    Is there any way to get that listing to appear under the Paper Type drop down menu?
    I know that this is a long post, but it helped me to clarify my ‘issues’.  Thank you for any and all suggestions, answers, guidance and help.

    RIK,
    Some printers have long names, esp. HP printers, and PSE gets ":confused." In control panel>devices and printers, right click on the default printer, go to printer properties, and rename the default printer to something short, e.g. "Our Printer." That may fix it..

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