Dvcprohd or hdv

out of all the recording formats out there, which camera is the best way to go? obviously, that question's too open ended, let's say we've got around $5k for a camera. what will provide the best looking picture? it seems like you've either got hdv with canon, jvc and sony. or you've got dvcpro hd with the hvx200. are there dvcpro25 or dvcpro50 cameras that will give as good or better a picture as hdv cameras?
and which formats are the best to edit in Final Cut? is dvcpro25 or 50 easier then dvcprohd or just the same?
if i were to do a camera upgrade now, should i still sit on my butt waiting for more dvcprohd cameras or take the plunge with hdv? it seems like either you've got $15-20k for a camera or you've got $5k and stuck with hdv.
i need some help from professional opinions please, thank you

let's say we've got around $5k for a camera. what will provide the best looking picture?
HVX-200...without a doubt. There is no denying that DVCPRO HD looks much better than HDV. But be warned...$5k will get you only the camera, not the media in which to record HD onto. I think it ships with 1 8GB P2 card for free, so there is that. But other P2 cards will cost you $1200. Then you will need the means to get the footage off of the cards and onto your system. The new laptops don't work, only the older G4 powerbooks. And most PC laptops have the PCMCIA slot required for the card. Otherwise yo are lookng at yet another $2k for the P2 store or P2 card reader....unless you can live with using the camera to offload the clips, which means losing shooting time. The Firestore hard drive recorder...About $2000. But the firestore now records in the camera's native mode (24pn, 24 real frames per second) so that is a plus.
HVX isn't cheap...$10k+ by the time you are done. But...
which formats are the best to edit in Final Cut?
DVCPRO HD...again...no contest. When working with HDV, the recommended workflow is to convert it to DVCPRO HD as you capture. This means buying a capture card...another $2k for the AJA Kona LH.
s dvcpro25 or 50 easier then dvcprohd or just the same?
Those are STANDARD DEF formats, DVCPRO HD (DVCPRO 100) is an HD format. DVCPRO 25 is DV quality, and DVCPRO 50 is Digibeta quality. The HVX shoots all those formats. HDV shoots HDV...and all the HDV cameras shoot different versions of HDV...gets confusing.
if i were to do a camera upgrade now, should i still sit on my butt waiting for more dvcprohd cameras or take the plunge with hdv?
Do you need a camera now? If so, get one. If you can wait until mid April and NAB...all the better. New stuff announced there every year.
OH, and with all this you need HD monitors and HD cards to view all this HD footage. Jerry Hofmann had a post a while back (wish I bookmarked it) on how working with HDV isn't as cheap as you'd think. By the time you get the camera, the capture card, hard drives, monitor...you are looking at $10-$14k. Not much better with the HVX either. HD isn't cheap.
Shane

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H.264 MP4 preset with 920x518 not possible in Compressor?

We need to export our Final Cut projects to different H.264 MP4 sizes. They are 1280x720, 640x360 and 920x517. Unfortunately we didn't find a way to set a preset to 920x518.
What can we do to get that work?
Thanks in advance for every hint.
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You'll need to use QuickTime Conversion out of FCP (or QT Pro) since Compressor will not create h.264-encoded .mp4 files.
Just for starters:
With your sequence selected or active, *File > Export > QT Conversion*.
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Hit the Options buttons to bring up the MPEG-4 Export Settings dialog
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Check the +Preserve Aspect Ratio using+ box and set the drop-down value to *Fit within size*.
There are, of course, other considerations (Data Rate, Multi-Pass vs Single Pass, Profiles, etc) but that should at least get you started.
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Rendering error message with "Bad TV" effect

Hi Everyone!
I am receiving a error message when rendering: "the effect "bad tv" failed to render: Your hardware cannot render at the requested size and depth"
My computer has been setup to handle the demands of FCP- 2x3 GHz OCTO with 10 GB of RAM. Why is this happening? Does this mean I have to spend $1500 for a graphics card? Rather not...
Here's more info about what I am trying to accomplish:
(Media: DVD imported/exported with MPEG Streamclip to HDV 1080i60.
Sequence settings: HDV 1080i60) I have my reasons for setting my edit up this way I promise!
Editing for a commercial with some poor footage from 4th Gen. DVD. Instead of trying to make the video look the best, I've decided to go the other way and to make it look worse with Bad TV effect. I have layered 6 files of the DVD to create ghost or duplicate images both on the right and left side of the original footage to take the eye away from the crappy copied DVD footage. When I tried to render out the footage the error message comes up each time.
THANKS!!!

I think your confusion is based on the fact that you are interchanging the graphics card, and a video capture card. They are not the same thing.
The graphics card or display card is the piece of hardware that drives your monitor. It's also used to enhance graphic programs like Photoshop, Motion, etc. It's also what is used to render the cool 3D graphics of games like Halo, and Call of Duty. A good one with an 8K texture limit is around $225 or so.
A video capture card is a piece of hardware that allows you to capture full frame SD and HD (depending on the card) through an SDI or other cable. It is a way to capture the video signal as opposed to the video file (as Firewire does). These cards can also send full res signals out to a deck or broadcast monitor.
As far as your gfx card goes, I think the 2600 is a 4K texture limit. Buying the ATI 3870 or 4870 (if your computer is compatible) will give you an 8K texture limit.
To send full resolution HD out to a deck or monitor, you will need a capture card. Firewire is typically used to export DV DVCProHD or HDV. There are products out there that use firewire to IN/OUT other formats such as ProRes, but it's still a piece of hardware you have to buy. MOTU has a product like that. AJA has the IO that uses a firewire connection. There are others as well.
I hope this clears up some of your confusion.
Andy

Error-Unrecognized request

Hi to all,
I have this ongoing problem with Compressor. It happened before and after the 3.0.2 update. When I send a HD(DVCProHD) or HDV timelime from FCP6 to Compressor for conversion to DVD Best quality (MPEG 2 6.2Mbps 2-pass) I receive the following error after the 2nd pass.
<log tms="218690231.834" tmt="12/06/2007 19:17:11.834" pid="264" msg="Done _processRequest for job target: file://localhost/Users/ericreinig/Desktop/Sequence%201-Paperwork%2024p-MPEG-2%2 06.2Mbps%202-pass.m2v"/>
<mrk tms="218690231.836" tmt="12/06/2007 19:17:11.836" pid="264" kind="end" what="service-request" req-id="CBB3088F-B208-48FB-96E0-D13FEF39FAE3:1" msg="Processing service request end."></mrk>
<mrk tms="218690244.670" tmt="12/06/2007 19:17:24.670" pid="264" what="service-request" req-id="CBB3088F-B208-48FB-96E0-D13FEF39FAE3:1" msg="Error: unrecognized request."></mrk>
At this point it will remain in the error loop (updating every minute) indefinitely. This also happens when I Export as QT movie (self-contained and not) and use that file as my source file. This doesn't happen when I send a DV sequence. Any suggestions?
Thanks Eric

hi
same problem here.
it doesn´t seem be file problem (it does the same thing to every movie file and every compression setting).
i´ve tried to reinstall fcpstudio2 ( and qmaster and compressor and motion.
http://www.scottsimmons.tv/blog/2008/01/11/compressor-hatred-resolved/ )
but nothing helps sofar.
tjl

A quick straight RAID answer for an Editor

So I'm on my spankin' new 8 core with 3 500 Gig Drives (main is my boot and apps) and 2 others in the bay.
On my old Dual 2 Gig PPC I am using a Cal Digit S2VR Duo for my DVCPROHD work.
On the new 8 Core, I've striped the 2 internals (not my boot) as RAID 0 for speed for some DVCPROHD and HDV projects.
Kosher? Search was my friend and I think I'm good to go (with an external as a backup of course). Thanks all, just wanted an editors (Shane or others) confirmation.

Internal drives...striped or not...would work for DVCPRO HD. Raiding them gets you better performance...more streams of RT and a few more RT effects, so that would be perfectly fine. In fact, I recommend using internal drives before you start going external...unless you are working with uncompressed formats.
That is what I'd do.
Shane

Poor/B&W Video During Capture/Import

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Inconsistent playback stuttering/dropped frames

I just switched from a mid 2010 Mac Pro to a new 27" IMac 5K retina display. I'm working on a one hour program which was started on my MacPro. It died so I moved the project to my MacBook Pro and then to the IMAC. Footage is a mix of DVCPRO HD 1080/30i; GoPro 1080/30 & 60P; HDV; Canon 1080/30p; old & new stills, some old & small, some large & new shot with the Canons. Timeline is 1080/30i.
When playing back from the timeline I'm getting inconsistent stuttering in some shots. Inconsistent because a specific clip may play back smoothly once, then the next time I play it there is obvious stuttering. Play again and the problem will show up in a different place in the clip and it may be worse or better. could start 3 seconds into the clip, might be 5 or 7. I first noticed this when editing on my Laptop, which is a 15" retina model with full Ram and the fastest I7 processor new last year, which is not all that unusual.
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I rolled back from 2014, 8.2 to CC 7 and the playback smoothed out in some test shots I brought into a new project. I also tried exporting a few minutes of the most troubled parts of the timeline to an H264 file and it played back smoothly, so apparently the file isn't corrupt just tthe playback. Fortunately I'm not editing with the client, so that element is mute, but I do from time to time have clients here and this sort of playback isn't real terrific for showing off the work.
I've spent a couple days & several hours on the phone with tech support with no solution in the problem.
I also tried the offending shots in FCP7 and they play back consistently smooth. The older DVCPROHD and HDV clips were captured in FCP7, so I recaptured them in Premier Pro, thinking that for whatever reason that may have been the issue, but the results are identical.
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Thx...Jim Watt
IMac (Retina 5K, 27-inch, Late 2014)
Processor: 4 GHz Intel Core i7
Memory: 32 GB 1600 MHz DDR3
Startup Disk: Mac HD/3 TB Fusion
Graphics: AMD Radeon R9 M295X 4096 MB
Video Drive: 6TB Raid “0” in OWC Raid Housing
Write Speed: 328 MB/s
Read 333.7 MB/s
Premier Pro CC 8.2
2 additional HDMI Monitors

Determined this was a hardware problem since stuttering also happened in Quicktime. Returned IMac to Apple for an exchange which should arrive next week. Hopefully no more choppy playback. Exports incidentally played fine.
jw

AVCHD to HD CAM conversion on FCP

Hey folks,
so I have something I shot on AVCHD (Sony HDR SR7), captured in FCP studio 2 using apple pro res 422 and edited. Now I never made a tape output of this, only a DVD. I need to send this out for a screening and they need it in a tape format.
My question is will the AVCHD>PRO RES 422>HD CAM tape conversion work out fine ? Planning on using the Sony HVR-M15U to record. Or is there any other tape format that I can output to that would work well loseless ?
second question is a more of a FCP one. do I need to use compressor and export out as HDV and do a copy to tape or should I just change the sequence setting in FCP to use the HDV 1080i60 compression and do a print to tape, have a feeling the second option would work better.
any help is appreciated. thanks

Planning on using the Sony HVR-M15U to record
well thats not an HDCAM deck that's HDV
Or is there any other tape format that I can output to
how about HDCAM!
I need to send this out for a screening and they need it in a tape format.
take care that you get this in a tape format they can view ... pointless making an HDCAM dub (or DVCPROHD or HDV or whatever) if what they want is DigiBeta or Beta SP.
second question is a more of a FCP one.
you need to have a clearer idea of the first before you get on to the second

1080i60 pixel aspect ratio

If you go to at FCP5 "Audio/Video Settings" and click on "Sequence Presets" tab and then choose HDV - 1080i60 preset, "Summary:" window, among other things says this:
Frame Size: 1440 x 1080 Pixels
Pixel Aspect Ratio: HD (1440x1080)
At the same time if you read FCP User manual - Vol.IV Ch. 26 page 337 - "Sequence Settings and Presets" it says :
Pixel Aspect Ratio: Choose a pixel aspect ration that matches the format you are working with.
HD (1280x1080): For 1080i60 HD video, such as DVCPROHD and HDV.
HD (1440x1080): For 1080i50 HD video, such as DVCPROHD and HDV.
In other words easy setup for 1080i60 gives aspect ratio of 1440x1080 but FCP manual suggests that 1080i60 has a 1280x1080 aspect ratio.
Which is correct?

Thank you for your reply. That is what I thought.
So that would mean that information in FCP user manual stating
HD (1280x1080): For 1080i60 HD video, such as DVCPROHD and HDV.
HD (1440x1080): For 1080i50 HD video, such as DVCPROHD and HDV.
is incorrect?
2.7GHz dual cpu G5 Mac OS X (10.4.7) FCP 5.0.4

Is my kit ready to take HD?

I've been asked, unexpectedly, to work on my first HD project and would like to find out if my new system will be up to requirements:
Final Cut Pro 5.1.4
5GB memory
My graphics card is NVIDIA GeForce 7300GT
LaCie Big Disks (Extreme) for media storage
We will be using the camera and capturing/outputting via firewire.
I have several weeks to plan any modifications - so I hope to have all tried and tested before we get going.

Run, do not walk, and do not buy an HDV camera. Buy the HVX-200... you'll be a ton better off I think in post. It uses more disk space, but not expensive drives... and it renders a TON faster, as well as being in a 4:2:2 color space. For compressed HD formats (DVCPROHD and HDV) it's a lot friendlier with FCP.
Your current system would work with either, but figure that HDV render/conform times are about 8 times longer than the renders of the same effects using DVCPROHD. Only downside is that DVCPROHD uses about 4 times the storage space, but will work with FireWire drives. Fast firwire... I'd seriously look at eSATA though instead. Faster, and costs about the same.
Jerry

How do I "cross convert" HDV to DVCProHD

I hear and read a lot lately about converting HDV to DVCPro HD.
I have a CANON XH A1 and I'm wondering, where I go to read how to convert during capture or otherwise to DVCProHD?
Note: Per Shane, I edited the title to "Cross convert" from "Down convert".

Well, dont' call it DOWN CONVERTING. It is really CROSS converting.
Best way? Get a capture card like the Kona LHe and connect it to the camera via the component outs. It has those, right? I know the XL H1 has HD SDI, and that the A1 doesn't. But does it have Component outs?
Where to read about it? Go to www.creativecow.net. Sign up for the magazine, then download issue #2. Jerry Hofmann goes into detail about how and why.
-shane

HDV/4:2:0 and DVCProHD/4:2:2

I have been debating getting an AJA Kona LH capture card to improve my HDV editing perfomance.
AJA suggests that one advantge is that you can capture the HDV source material over the analog HD camera/deck output as DVCProHD. Then you can work in 10 bit 4:2:2.
I believe HDV color sampeling is 4:2:0. So if the source material is 4:2:0, is there any real benefit from the 4:2:2 color space you supposedly get after capture?
G5 Dual 2.5 GHZ, 4.5 MB (cause WinXP Can't), GeForce 6800 Ultra, Sonnet SATA 4+4 Mac OS X (10.4.7)

If all you want is a speed up in editing, why not use Apple Intermediate Codec (AIC) HDV, instead of Native HDV ?
Use the easy setup, select AIC HDV, capture, wait a long time for the transcode to complete, then you have a DVC Pro HD like codec (high data rate, independent frames that edit and scrub easily).
You also have a route back to HDV tape, once again, not a very fast one, but it does work.
Personally, I stick to native HDV, and 'suck it up' regarding the poor performance. Once I have a cuts only edit, I put that back to tape (nearly lossless - footage is left alone apart from around the cuts), and then consider what to do next with it. Transcode, re-import as DV, title and post, etc. etc.
The trouble with HDV to DVC Pro HD, aside from the fact the 4:2:0 will end up being rendered into a 4:2:2 codec (without the benefit of a 4:2:0 filter), is that NTSC DVC Pro HD has a native res of 1280x1080, whereas HDV is 1440x1080 (they are both 1440x1080 in PAL) so you have that added complication too.
Unless it is a mixed format project, or your output has to be DVC Pro HD, I would stick with your (majority) source format.
What are you going to make from this, by the way ? If you clear the render cache, and export via compressor, when you have finished, then all your effects and titles will not be re-encoded into HDV, so the argument put forward above, about artefacts, is also not true.
edit: Ignore the 4:2:0 filter part, what the sales guy suggested (analogue capture) would be filtered. You would not gain colour space, but you not be worse off either.

HDV Workflow -- What's wrong with this picture (other than some obvious)

Hi Powerusers,
I have a client with a canon XH-A1, they are ingesting via iMovie HD, cutting a rough timeline in iMovie, and then porting to FCP (via drag and drop) for me to finish on. Seems plausible all editing via AIC (apple intermediate codec). Final destination will be SD DVD, WEB, Handheld media, etc. Am I missing something or is this somewhat acceptable (other than loss of timecode) which they aren't concerned about since it's pretty lo-budget.
Is editing using the AIC horrible (picture looks acceptable). I'm not used to this workflow. I work in DV, SD or DVCPROHD codecs/timelines but am baffled by not being able to ingest directly from Final Cut with this Canon HDV camera, but iMovie has that flexibility (view, start, stop, import) whereas I'm not getting any options other than capture now with FCP.
Thoughts, criticisms, advice greatly appreciated.
cheers

I ended up capturing via FCP using HDV1080i60 easy setup with capture setting working with both Sony HDV over firewire and HDV Firewire Basic.
Seems like all is working well using this setup. It's far more than the client needs as we'll be downconverting the timeline to SD once complete, but good enough now for edit. HDV is not fun to work with I'll tell ya. Still having some errors with log and capture.

AVCHD vs HDV

Well im sure i could exreact this info if i had the time to read a million threads but i dont. So im gonna have to ask afraid!
I still edit and deliver all of my stuff in Standard Def so i High Def has not been necessary for me up until now.
Ive always had a few techniques to try and acheive a 25p film like effect for years .. started with FAST's Video Machine DP/R (Probably none of you remember that?!) but never was really satisfied with the results.
Secondly, I want to enter into High Def as I know its only a matter of time before im asked.
I've pretty much narrowed it down to the Sony HDR V1E (im PAL) as it has impressive slow motion ability, and probably thebest 25p ive seen, or at least viewed from YouTube!
My Question is a simple one (i hope)
Am i at any disadvantage editing with FCP2 HDV than ACVHD? My budget wont allow me to go over the price of a V1E.
Any construcive thoughts/insruction most welcome.
thanks.

Hi there,
The reason why people are opposed to HDV can largely be summed up as follows
1. compression - its highly compressed, an 'HD' signal squeezed into the same datarate (roughly) as DV. Not great for highly detailed shots with movement in them, You'll see all sorts of compression artifacts in there. Also the 4.2.0 chroma sampling makes grading/compositing poor compared to DVCProHD.
2. HDV Long GOP format - check Wikipedia for details. but basically each shot as recorded to tape has its own structure to allow the compression to work, some frames have all the detail, others don't. but the compression works it all out as long as you don't edit the shot. As editors, we clearly edit shots, so when we make a cut the CPU in your mac has to re-order the long gop structure to allow the compression to play a viewable image. This sounds fine (depending on the power of your mac)until you start doing any one of the normal editing things, multilayering, filters long sequences etc. Then your mac may struggle. You also have to render to play out to tape.
For both of these reasons most people choose to ingest their footage as DVCproHD or ProRes. doubling (at leaast) your storage requirements over straight DV. but giving you a better editing environment. Don't forget though that it will still have been compressed going to tape.
In short if you can't afford DVCProHD go for HDV and use the workarounds as pointed out. If you can find a DVCProHD solution for under £2500 go for it (you can claim the VAT back against your business!) you won't be disappointed
Have fun
Regards
Andy

HDV 1080i50 to SD MASTER Workflow

Hello all.
I am working now on a documentary, shot on Sony HDV 1080i50, 70 hours material, to be delivered in DIGIBETA PAL, and I am looking to the best approach to edit and finish it. Coming from the AVID World (yes, I confess...) and having worked not so much with FCP, I really need some help with this project. I will tell you what I do have in mind, and I kindly ask you to tell me if I am crazy or it makes some sense. I do have some specific questions as well. Thank you for your help. Here is my plan:
1 – CAPTURE.
70 hours captured in DV (already have!) in order to monitor easyly and work without long GOP.
2 – OFF LINE EDITING.
Normal documentary editing. I will zoom/resize the picture a lot. As I shoot in HDV and will deliver in SD PAL, I understand I have a big margin to zoom in an image without any quality loss when downsizing back to PAL. For instance, I only made one wide shot for the interviews. I will use this shot and then zoom the picture for a close up of the face... That is the main idea. How should I do these frame resizes, direct with FCP or should I use some special plug in?
3 – ONLINE.
Recapture all material in the Sequence in HD. Now I do not know if I should do it on HDV (remember: we are going back to SD for output) or should I use one of the PRORES 422 Apple codecs. What do you think? All the frame resizes and picture effects will be kept on the recapture, or?
4 – IMAGE FINISHING.
Do the colour correction and image finishing (with the HD material). Control and finish all the image movements, zooms and resizes. Apply effects, we do have to make some face blur and things like that. Should I do the colour correction on HD or should I make it once I have already downsized to SD, after step 5?
5 – RENDER TO SD FOR OUTPUT.
Here I do not know how to do it, but I want to convert my HD (HDV or PRORES 422) Sequence to an SD Uncompressed PAL 4:2:2 10bit Sequence. How do I do this? Here I do not have nay idea… Could you please help me? Will all the resizes and zoom be kept with the correct resolution when I downsize?
6 – AUDIO FINISHING.
Audio mixing and audio effects.
7 – OUTPUT IN SD
Export of a Quicktime SD Uncompressed PAL 4:2:2 with 10bit and print to tape.
Should I export direct from FCP or use Compressor or something?
That’s it!
Please, I would ask you to take some time an help me. If thewe is something that is not clear or you need more information, fell free to write me or post and I will answer as soon as I can. Thanks again.

Fantin,
Not the exact answer to your question but hopefully helpful.
My workflow with HDV is as follows:
-Capture as HDV (same data rate as DV so might as well)
-Do a basic picture edit, avoiding anything fancy (long render times with long GOP as you know)
-Use Media manager to up convert to DVCProHD
-Apply all my dissolves, effects etc.
-Do sound mix in FCP
-Use FCP and Color to grade
-Export to SD DVD using Compressor via FCP timeline.
or you could presumably
-Drop onto tape using a Kona or Blacmagic card
Don't think you'll get any better quality going 10 bit uncompressed if you're starting with HDV - might as well stick with DVCProHD.
In terms of zooming into HDV footage to achieve a good quality SD frame, Im not sure the method above would accommodate that. I've always done this in the past by dropping my HDV footage directly into an SD timeline and then zooming from there - this might mean of course that you'll need to export you're entire project as DV50 Anamorphic and then replace the zoomed in wide shots onto that.
I suspect if you just zoom into the HDV on a HDV or ProRes timeline this wouldn't translate well in SD.

Dvcprohd or hdv

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