H264 HD Color Shift

I've searched the forums and found some references to something similar having to do with h264's encoding for HD and SD differently with rec601 and rec709 (http://forums.adobe.com/thread/769015) but we seem to have the opposite problem where outputting from AE directly works and AME gives us shifted colors.
We are using CS6 production premium with all recent updates on PCs.
We have an animation compressed quicktime as a source file that we are trying to output via AME using H264. If we output it as SD, all colors look fine, if we output the same file to HD we get a pretty big color shift, this is with any of the H264 presets in AME - Vimeo, Broadcast, custom, etc, HD color is shifted, SD is correct - same source file. No color management on files or in AE, all files being viewed on the same computer monitor. If we use AME to compress it with something other than H264 the output is fine at both SD and HD. If we take the same source file and output it from AE directly with the H264 preset both SD and HD colors are correct.
Is there something inherently different in the way that AME and AE are using H264, something obvious that we're missing or is this a bug?
Thanks in advance for any help....

"If we output it as SD, all colors look fine, if we output the same file to HD we get a pretty big color shift, this is with any of the H264 presets in AME"
This means that the source is rec601.
If opened/queued to AME I'm assuming that if the size is bigger than HD that is is guessing that it is rec709. - basically the check is if Height is greater or equal to 720 it is HD. (height >= 720)
In that case AME will assume it is rec709.
It's up to the exporter to select whether to override the SD/HD auto-detect and force it to rec601/rec709.
Check to see if there is that option in the bundled h.264 encoder. The 3rd party product x264pro does have this override.

Similar Messages

Big Color Shift between exported H264 mp4 and Program Monitor

I get a big Color Shift between exported H264 mp4 on Vimeo/Youtube and Quicktime X and Program Monitor.
There are quite a few posts on Quicktime gamma issues, but there seem to be no solutions and the other editors I know don't seem to have this problem.
I know there will be a bit of a shift but this is MASSIVE. At the moment I add a whole extra adjustment layer to all my clips to get it approximately right, but ofcourse this does not solve the issue nor does it give proper results.
Please do not reply with the "You need a real reference monitor via SDI etc etc ..."
By my logic on the same screen the program monitor should resemble what is going to be the final result in a relevant player like Quicktime X which all normal apple consumers use to watch their films. I know VLC and Mpeg streamclip gives different results, but mostly when playing Quicktime/h264 files Quicktime will play it thus average users ( the people I'd like to downwload/buy my films )will watch it in Quicktime.
Furthermore, Quicktime X's gamma/color looks very similar to the image I get on Youtube or Vimeo - which is where all my current work is going. I'm not outputting to boradcast or DVD etc.
Strangely enough the MPEG 2 stuff I've done for DVD matches the Youtube output with the Program monitor.
What am I doing wrong?
I have a Dell 2711 wide Gamut Display which is calibrated with an SPyder 3 Elite using its full colour gamut ( close to 90% of Adobe RGB - thus bigger than sRGB or Rec709) Could Premiere be ignoring the calibration in the Program monitor and making the image values 16-235 and then Quicktime uses all values 0-255? If so, how can I fix this?
Any help will be much appreciated!

I know this has been a while so hopefully you found some help by now, but maybe this will help anyone stumbling across this.
What people seem to be missing in what you are asking is... this is the same file, on the same monitor, but with a different appearance in different software. It is not a question of whether the overall monitoring is GOOD, and it is not a matter of hardware settings (as that would most likely propogate across all software) it is that it is not CONSISTENT side by side on the very same monitor.
I had very similar issues that really seemed to get worse when we got new monitors, which is what lead me to chime in here. The monitors were also wide gamut displays.
The problem is likely this...
1. The difference being shown are the difference between software that properly color manages (i.e. Premier or After Effects) and software that does not (i.e. Quicktime or some web browsers)
2. The reason it is so severe is that the wide gamut monitors are able to show many more colors and thus the difference between the managed and unmanaged software is much more exagerrated than on regular gamut monitors.
I found this great link that helped calm my nerves and helped me get handle on much of what is going on.
http://www.artstorm.net/journal/2009/07/color-management-wide-gamut-dell-2408/
Now that is not to say that the 0-255/16-235 issue is not also involved here. It is definitely possible that a specific codec or compressor is part of the problem, but it sounds like it starts with the color management issue first.
I hope this helps.
Andy

QuickTime 7.1.6 Gamma/Color Shift Is Demonstrable

You can easily see the undesirable behavior of gamma/color shifting when playing H.264 codec movies in Apple's QuickTime Player.
Download any Apple HD (1920x?) QuickTime Trailer. Open and switch view to Double Size. The movie will immediately become darker with a pronounced gamma and color shift.
Reopening the movie switches back to the correct gamma and color.
I reported this bug, and since it's so easy to demonstrate, Apple should be able to fix it once and for all.
PowerBook G4 17 Mac OS X (10.4.9) QuickTime 7.1.6
PowerBook G4 17

I think you may find some will argue with you. DV and H264 at normal size look too bright and washed out for a lot of people, and are not the correct amount of darkness they should be. Fortuately when they're compressed to MPEG-2, if that's where you headed, they get the contrast back again.
Playing the move doubled up is one of many work arounds to the problem. But the problem isn't the one you think it is. You're right about the fact that it should be fixed once and for all.

Solution to Gamma/Color Shift Problems with Apple Codecs - Adobe BUG

Hi....
In AfterEffects when choosing an output module and that module be ProRes or 10 Bit Uncompressed,
when trying to color manage the file, there is a fine line called
'This Codec Does Not Support Output Profile'
You can find it int he Color Management Pane of the output module....
Funny thing is - That Profile Embedding IS support by:#
Apple's Compressor and THE CODEC 4444 AND UnCompressed
Episodes Encoder
See following Screen Shots:
First one from Apple's Compressor...
Look at that little beautiful Color Option... Adobe did you MISS that one, perhaps...
You must have - because your APPS are NOT including that when encoding or should I say
butchering movie files....
Here adobes famous but wrong dialog!!!!
And in this next screen shot you can easily see that adobe just strips the color profile out of the file...
AND THAT IS WHY THERE IS A COLOR SHIFT...........
left image = Apple's Compressor Encoding (Colors match of course) - Right Adobe's BRUTAL encoding (Colors WONT match...)
Now, in after effects you wont notice the shift. But ALL mac and PC users using quicktime to watch YOUR movies
are going to be looking at a movie with a different look than you thought it WOULD be... Courtesy of adobe ;-)
Jokes aside, Adobe.... It seems as if this one is on you to fix... Apple's Compressor has NO problems. And other encoders are also preserving those values.
Now... Let us assume that I encode in compressor... Looks are matching 100% that of the original source. All it takes to mess that up is ONE
roundtrip to after effects, premiere pro or Media Encoder. That is if I wanna maintain my initial choice of transcodec - in my case 4444 or 10bit Uncomp.
I could of course export to animation and then use compressor AGAIN to transcode to my format of choice... But in the long run I think that will become tedious.
Perhaps you could assign a few engineers on this one and in the future spend MORE time on living up to the name PRO(The most misused word in the software business) instead of wasting time generating new Application icons for your apps....
Thanks for reading and for a PROMPT and near-future BUG FIX

Mylenium wrote:
It's not really "embedding" anything, it merely sets the QT color space flags which have been there forever, but are mostly unused. Specific to ProRes it also toggles different internal optimizations in the encoding. That's also documented somewhere on the QT developer pages. I'm not sure I share your views otherwise. The point really is, that Apple developed ProRes just as much as a closed workflow within their products as Avid did with their CoDecs. Therefore the widespread use of the CoDecs is merely a byproduct of the use of the products, but not per se an intended workflow outside of those and, which is the more important part, also not explicable as a causal circumstance of the quality. If I may be so bold: What you are saying sounds like everyone would be using the Animation CoDec because it is so good, when the simple fact is that there are no decent free cross-platform alternatives and people are willing to accept limitations because of that. Don't get me wrong, ProRes is well designed and pretty robust, but the world doesn't come to an end without it and outside the Mac world it is difficult to deal with. Hell, it's even difficult to deal with between different versions of FCP occasionally...
Mylenium
I have been testing codecs for a long long looooooong time. My criterion(s) are:
1) Image Quality and that through multiple encoding generations and color grading
THEEEN
a looooong way down the road
2) Performance
BTW - I find that working with files less compressed and thus HUGE is much better. Hard drives are so cheap that one can build himself an 8 Disk RAID0 and that takes care of everything. In PPRO I can cut real time in FulRes with an uncompressed codec with the processors maxing at 3% while the H264 editing sequence will stutter like a drunken wasp and maxing the CPUs at 63%.... Go figure...
ProRes 4444's impeccable imageQuality:performance ratio, is unbeaten.
Especially on H264 material like that of the Canon5D. You might say if the source is 4:2:0 why bother upping it to 4444... Well in theory perhaps
it is overkill. But rather than reading in theoretical white papers I conduct my own tests. And the end results are (REALITY) and way different from what theory states. TO anyone reading this. DONT believe ANYTHING you read about codec nor what I am saying.... DO YOUR OWN TESTING and judge for yourself. Problem is that you have to do 100's and 100's of transcodings with ONE source to various destinations with lost of grading and transcoding generation. THEN you have to keep track of your tests and THEN compare them. It takes WEEKs. But it is well worth while it. In my case... I start with a Canon5DMKII H264 movies. Transcode it to PRORES4444 then I do LOTS of compositing and re-encoding then lots of color grading etc etc etc. Then I export back to H264 - and the end result is STUNNING has NO artifacts and is adorable to look at. Not so with at least 6 other codecs claiming to be top-notch....
Sure Mylenium, the world would NOT end with PR4444 not in it... BUT the WORLD has ALREADY decided that it WANTED ProRes4444 in it. It is growing and that every day..........
Had the codec not been so darn excellent - it would NOT have been used. Period.

PLEASE HELP - COLOR SHIFTING PROBLEM on output NTSC monitors

http://www.smmlv.com/testproject/
Above is a link to a layered photoshop file that has a USA map and over a dozen network overlays used in a section of our video. I animate each layer on sepeartely in the video and have noticed a major problem recently, the color of the art does not hold true to placement. I created the art originally in Illustrator and then converted the file to Photoshop at 640x480, 72dpi. This has always worked perfectly in the past to display and animated artwork in FCP.
Right now, in FCP I am using the NTSC DV 3:2 frame size, and the compressor of DV/DVCPRO - NTSC. I have a JVC Profressional DV deck that hooks up through firewire and sends S-Video to my monitors. This setup has always given me a great picture even though it is not completely upcompressed. Using these settings and this art, the color lines on this map in red, light blue, yellow and purple all have a "color shift" to the left about 5 pixels. It makes it appear that the line is where it is in the file, but the color overlaying the line is offset to the left 5 pixels and transperant to about 50%. This occurs only when viewed on some TV's and NTSC monitors and projectors. The strange thing is, some monitors display the color aligned almost perfectly on these maps and other monitors and projectors show this "digital halo" of color shifting really bad. If I take the layered network overlays in these colors and color tint them to black or grey, white, light green, or even light orange, they no longer have the color shifting and the detail is perfect.
Is there any way to fix this problem? I have tried duplicating the sequence and setting the compressor to 8bit Uncompressed, and while my captured footage is not this compression, in theory the art should render at this higher resolution setting. This did nothing to solve the problem.
I also have tried using different Broadcast safe and Y/C corrector filters with different results. The Y/C filter allowed me to reposition the color problem and thus removing most of the problem, but also removing most of the color. Nothing else has allowed me to seemingly move the color into the proper possition.
What is causing this color shift on the displayed NTSC image?
In FCP 4.5 I can see my rendered video in the program viewer screen and besides the pixel compression appearing on the lines, overall the video looks great paused or even better when playing. Then you view it through my deck onto my Pro Sony NTSC 19" color monitor and it also appears great, with a slight color halo to the left of these colors, but the color in the lines are there. If you are a few feet from the screen and know what you are looking for you might see it, but doubtful. Then you view it using the same signal on a 17" Samsung TV and the color shifting makes the map and other art, like the clients blue logo, look horrible, with each color line appearing twice and offset left from each other as if you had double vision. Normally I would think it is the TV causing this, but then we tested this same movie on 2 differnt projectors. The $700 Epson projector displayed everything beautifully, again with only the slightest color halo to the left, but then the Panasonic $4000 projector made everthing in these colors look double vision again. What is going on???
One more thing to keep in mind, my color bars also show this problem with these colors as well as shot footage of these facilities. There are tall red poles in the shots and everything displays fine except for the red pole color looks like it's glowing off the pole to the left.
PLEASE tell me there is a solution to this.

I have tried Degaussing, using filters, changing cables, and testing other monitors and systems on these monitors, everthing I can think of to solve the issue. Is it FCPo or is it the monitors?... or is it a signal strength thing. Can monitors and projectors shift color when the signal is read from a DVD or Mini DV Deck? Is there a fequency difference (Ie: 75mgz or 80 mgz) that might be causing the shift in some monitors and not so badly in others. But if this was true, how would some DVD's (like Baby Einstein DVDs that use really bright colors) display red and blue perfect using these same player and monitor, while my projects is shifting color? Doesn't that rule out the signal from the DVD player if other DVD's do not have this issue?
I have uploaded the original art used, an exported .jpg file from the FCP timeline and sample photos of 2 different monitors to show to show this problem as best I can. http://www.smmlv.com/testproject/
Someone out there must have had this problem before. There's no way a color shift problem like this with Mini DV has gone on this long without someone seeing it.
One last thing about what I have tried... I do understand that with editing in Mini DV instead of uncompressed or HD video I lose a bit of resolution (4:2:2) and I see this compression occuring in some of the areas in the video where these problems persist. But, I did remake the art and rerender this project in an 8bit uncompressed settings and then displayed that up on the screen and I get the same color shift. I keep going in circles trying to find the culprit that is causing the delema.
PLEASE HELP! There are large tours going through our facilities daily and the large screen projector is displaying this problem as well. Let's just hope they don't notice and that their TV's at home or office does not display it on our final DVD's made.

Color shift in save for web

Help!! Yelp! I have followed the directions in previous posts for fixing color shift when saving for web. I switched my monitor to gamma 2.2. I chose sRGB in assign color profile.
The colors still look washed out!
I am using CS4 on the Mac.
What am I doing wrong?

siri3 wrote:
What am I doing wrong?
You are using "assign" instead of CONVERT to sRGB. In addition, accurately calibrate your monitor often and regularly. Even the cheapest hardware calibrator will give superior results to eyeball calibrators.
See the FAQs in the Photoshop forum for your platform, Macintosh or Win.

How do I prevent the Darker Shade Box (color shift) around Vector Objects when Printing

Sorry in advance for the novelette. I am absolutely mystified and frustrated and would love some help! I've been working on this problem for about 30 hours over the last 4 days to figure out what the heck is happening and cannot find an answer through various forms of research.
Basically, when I print a JPEG, I am getting this area (a box) of darker shaded coloring around my heart and love text. I've tested it a million different ways and am at a loss as to what the problem is ... is it an application problem, a color profile problem between my applications and printer, an improper way that I saved my file, etc.
Here is a photo I took of the image printed out (so it is slightly skewed from camera distortion):
The details:
(1) I create graphic art and sell it online. I save all of my printable art as JPEG files because of my customer base (diy hobbyists that print on their home printers without much knowledge base nor graphic design software).
(2) I use both Adobe Illustrator (AI) and Photoshop Elements 11 (PSE11) to design and save my artwork.
(3) I insert JPEG images into Microsoft Word 2003 documents to "test print" since most of my customers use home printers to print. Since most people have this basic software, it is a good gauge of the kind of print out they might get using the same or similar software.
(4) My PSE11 color profile setting is the default sRGB. I have test printed many times and I get the truest colors with this color profile.
(5) My AI color settings are normally also an sRGB color mode, but on occasion, I use a CMYK color mode if I am creating a larger document that I know the customer will need to take to a professional printer to print out.
(6) I do my home printing (for proofs) on an Epson Stylus Photo 1400 (which has the 6 color ink cartridges).
(7) Until this printing problem occurred on this test print out, I always used the "photo enhance" option when I designate settings for my printer via the Microsoft Word documents.
IMPORTANT: This is when I have the color shift?? or color rendering issues?? and it is the only time. If I use the regular ICM/ICC color profile of sRGB, the printing issue doesn't occur. Instead, I have a solid color background instead of this one with the strips of lighter color on the top and bottom. However, I can't control how the customer prints, so I need to feel confident that whatever color profile setting they use, they will not run into this problem. I even test printed the documents over at FedEx and the darker box/color shift did not occur.
(8) The document in question only has 3 sets of objects: the heart, the solid colored rectangle colored background and the text. All 3 objects are vectors, they are at 100% opacity and there are no "special effects" applied.
(9) The image was entirely created in AI this time and exported as a maximum quality JPEG file, although you will see below that I tried many ways to create and save the file so that I didn't have the color band borders on top/bottom.
(10) I regularly use AI for part of my art, then I drag it to my PSE11 open document and it becomes a Vector Object (it cannot by copying/pasting into a PSE11 document). I also regularly export AI images as PNG files, then insert them into an open PSE11 document. This printing issue has not occurred until recently. Here is an example of a very complex AI image I created, then inserted into PSE11 just to add the background (the Teddy Bear and books are AI vector objects) that were exported as PNG files then inserted into PSE11 to integrate with the background image - I test printed with Photo Enhance and had no printing issues:
So, from the research I have done, it looks like it is a color rendering or color space issue with conflicting color profiles in the same document. I checked my color profile settings and both sRGB and CMYK were set to embed ICC color profiles.
I tried changing AI settings to Preserve Numbers (ignore linked profiles) for CMYK, but that didn't work.
I also checked and made sure that not only the document setup showed the sRGB color profile, but that all the objects within the document also were converted to sRGB as well for consistency. That didn't work.
I tried converting the document to CMYK along with the vector objects. That didn't work.
I tried saving the heart image as a PNG file alone, the "love" text as a PNG file alone, both the heart and text together as a PNG files alone. Once saved as PNG files, I inserted them into an open empty PSE11 document - as I normally do. I then added the background color I wanted. That didn't work - the print still showed the color changes.
I tried dragging each vector object separately and even as a group and got the same color change issue when printing.
I tried "expanding" and "outlining" the text before exporting as JPEG, before exporting as a PNG and before dragging as a vector object into PSE11. Expanding the text did not help the situation.
I tried exporting as Adobe PDF, then opening in PSE11, then resaving as JPEG. That didn't work.
I tried flattening transparency (even though there is no transparency in the AI file). That didn't work.
I tried rasterizing the image. That didn't work.
Thinking that the file might be corrupt, I started from scratch and redesigned the same heart and love text. Unfortunately, I had the same problem as before. At this point, my AI started becoming buggy and would not open new files. It happened repeatedly and I decided it was best to uninstall and reinstall AI (and maybe that would fix the problem).
I created just the heart in AI, then inserted it into an open PSE11 document (both after exporting as PNG and also by dragging as Vector Object from AI). It seemed to work. I could both drag the vector into PSE11 from AI and export from AI as a PNG, then insert into open PSE11 document with a background color - and it printed a solid background.
So, I thought that reinstalling and setting back to defaults worked. But, then I added the love text around the heart and tried exporting as JPEG files and the same problem continued to recur. Whether I dragged as a Vector object into PSE11 (the heart object and love text separately and also another time with the vector objects dragged as a group) or saved them as PNG files and inserted into PSE11 - I got the different shades of color on what should be a solid background. I even tried saving the PSE11 as a PSD file first, then resaving as JPEG and I tried saving as PNG and printing and this didn't help solve the problem.
I really think it is some color conflict issue but I can't figure it out. I am definitely not very knowledgeable about color profiles and how to sync all my devices, however, as I mentioned, this was not an issue until recently (and I think??? I recall changing the CMYK setting from Preserve Numbers to embed color profile a month or so ago - however, it should have been solved when AI went back to its defaults upon reinstall).
The reason I believe it is a color rendering/color space issue is because I could see the color output when I saved the JPEG with CMYK color profile versus sRGB color profile and the sRGB colors were much richer, not surprisingly. The top and bottom colors matched the sRGB printout and the middle darker box section matched the CMYK printout.
I am sure it is something fundamental or simple and I am completely overlooking it. I wish it were just a transparency issue, because people know how to fix or do workarounds for it. But, there are no vector objects with any transparency ...
If I missed some detail, I apologize. Any help would be a dream come true at this point! lol
Thank you!

Okay, I got motivated to try again. From doing a bit more research on troubleshooting AI printing problems, the Adobe article talks about print drivers. It was advised to uninstall and reinstall the print driver if the printing issue persists. So, I did. Unfortunately, I still had the same result after reinstalling and trying a test print! Ugh.
So, as Jacob said upfront, I seem to have an overactive print driver that is trying too hard (and it is a non-postscript printer which I realize is part of the problem).
There are so many variables in my situation as to how I create art and save/export art. I sometimes work solely in AI, sometimes solely in PSE and sometimes I use both programs to create. Consequently, I will:
(1) export directly from AI as JPEG if I am not adding PSE11 artwork.
(2) export directly from AI as PNG if I plan on inserting that image into PSE11 to add to artwork I have created in PSE11.
(3) drag vector objects as a Smart Objects directly from AI to PSE11 to add to artwork I am creating in PSE11 if I know I will playing with the vector object and resizing in PSE11.
So, I did a test print using scenario 2, where I inserted the heart and love text PNG (AI created vector object) into an old PSE11 document. This old document already had a vector object from AI with a solid background and I knew it printed correctly. So, after inserting this new PNG from AI into this old document, it printed correctly using the photo enhance mode.
However, I haven't had a chance to actually create new art in the older AI files (that I know print properly), resave as something else and try another test print (either by exporting as JPEG and printing in Word or by exporting as PNG file and inserting into PSE11 document, then saving as JPEG and printing in Word).
After testing the different possibilities of ICM settings within my printer, I found that the JPEG images printed out with the truest colors and best quality if I simply selected "no color management" from the printer. Shocker, huh? lol
MY SOLUTION: So, what I think I will simply do is add an instruction sheet with the printables I sell, explaining that the color profile setting should never be handled by the printer so make sure to turn off color management by printer (and if they feel they must use the printer for color management, make sure the setting is sRGB since I embed that color profile in my JPEG's).
Edited to add: Since my issue was never about how I could print a successful image (I knew I could simply change the color profile settings), but rather about how to make sure that customers would get consistent and high quality print outputs of my digital images, this seems like the best approach.
I don't think I will every really know exactly why I am now getting color shifts in the "photo enhance" mode when I did not have this problem a couple months ago - applying the same methods of creating artwork. I was concerned that I was saving/exporting using incorrect or mismatched color settings or something of that nature. However, since I went through the process of making my color spaces the same for everything, and I still have issue, clearly that is not the culprit. The only thing I can do to solve the problem and it is a straightforward solution anyway -> is to educate the buyer on how to print successfully (don't use photo enhance! ha ha).
Thanks again to everyone who chimed in and offered advice!

OS 10.4.6 is causing color shift in prints

Since I updated to 10.4.6 My prints have a severe red cast to them. All perameters used in printing are the same as previous and my Epson 2200 is working properly. I have color managment turned off in the driver and am using the correct prifiles fo the paper. I saw another post where others were having display problems but my images display fine but print badly.
Anyone else have this problem or a suggestion.
Thanks
Craig

Grrr!
I'm having the same issues as people above and as on some similar threads.
First, I've color managed for awhile. Beginning with calibrated monitors, Photoshop's "View" menu settings, my color space ...
I know not to double color manage, and I choose to manage through Photoshop. I've reinstalled everything and read these boards and other threads on the web.
Here are my problems.
I am getting severe color shift and cannot get an accurate print. I've spoken with Epson ($$) and Adobe. All fingers point to Apple. Going through the printing process, everything is fine until soft proofing before hitting the final print button. That preview ALWAYS shows a shift in color if any color management has been applied. (I just tested an image without any color management and there still is a shift.)
Today I trying to print blue hydrangeas for a town project; they are shifting toward magenta. Last week I worked on a town-wide Relay for Life (ACS fundraiser); night-time images with candles ... shifted green. (Again, my with calibrated monitors.)
Ironically, when I was on 10.3.7 I didn't have any trouble. After that it's been roulette. I have an Apple Care contract and called Apple. Understanding that not every rep knows the ins and outs of color management, I asked him to forward an email to someone who can help me.
Grrr. I was told that since Photoshop and Epson are not Apple products they can't help me. Surely, web searches show that this is known problem. (Some suggest trashing Apple's Generic RGB profile ...)
Can ANYONE at Apple help? Please? Isn't that what an Apple Care contract should do?
I have 20 (different) prints due to a family by tomorrow. I have an additional 150 prints due by Thursday. Am I expected to borrow someone's Windows PC and use it to send the image to my printer?
(Also, I've installed several icc profiles in the past, but can't install any currently. I'm trying to install Museo and Arches profiles.
What is happening? Newer profiles don't show up in the print driver's "Print Settings," "Media Type" pull down menu, no matter where I try to load the newer icc profiles.)
G4 - 1.5 GHz Power PC Laptop Mac OS X (10.4.7) OS 10.4.7; Epson 2200; Photoshop CS2; plus other peripherals not relevant to this issue.

A different take on the "Save For Web" color shift issue...

Ok, everyone who has fussed much with photoshop and "Save For Web" knows about the color shift issue. If you want your colors to look right after you "save for web", you have to work in the sRGB colorspace, and have Proof Colors checked (soft proofing on) and the proof color setup set to Monitor RGB, otherwise what you get looks terrible when displayed in a browser.
But of course if you are editing for print, this is exactly what you DON'T want to do. Well, I work in both. In fact, often the same images, and I want them to appear as close as reasonably possible in both print and web formats, and without a lot of fussing on my part. And I'm pickiest about the print mode, since I have the most control there, so that's the way I want to edit by default.
Nothing new here.
Now comes the interesting part (in my mind, anyway). Obviously there is a known remapping -- because PhotoShop DOES it when you select Proof Colors. So the inverse mapping must also be known (with some gamut issues, but I'm not concerned with those, because, after all, I'm VIEWING it on a monitor anyway!). What I want is a plug-in that automatically applies that inverse mapping so that, when I do a Save For Web, I end up with the colors I've been viewing all the time when setting the shot up in print mode. Then, too, I don't have to worry about what mode I'm in when I'm editing -- it just fixes it when doing a save-for-web.
Again, I want to edit in my normal print mode (typically ProPhoto colorspace, and with soft-proofing off or set to the printer/medium combination I expect to use), then do a single operation (might be a multi-step action) to "screw up" my colors so that when I then do a "Save-For-Web", the resulting image, when viewed on the average color-stupid browser, looks like the image I've been seeing in Photoshop.
Anyone know of such a beast?   I would gladly pay for a plug-in that really works and fixes the problem.
And if you have other solutions, I'm interested, but the absolute requirement is that it I do one single edit pass for my colors for both print and web use, and I get what I see on the screen in PS on both the prints and on the web display (i.e., working in sRGB/Monitor RGB mode all the time won't cut it). And PREFERABLY, let me do all my editing work in the ProPhoto (or at least AdobeRGB) colorspace so I have a gamut closer to what the printer can do.
Anyone got a decent solution for this?

Sorry, I think I'm being unclear. This has nothing to do with individual monitor profiles. In Proof Setup, "Monitor RGB" amounts to turning off ALL color management, and simply letting the monitor do what it will. It is what the vast majority of web browsers do (even if the operating system provides color management, the browsers don't take advantage of it), so that is what you need to consider for images that will be viewed on a web browser. If you convert your image to sRGB, select Monitor RGB in Proof Set up, and turn on Proof Colors, you will see the image as it would appear on a web browser (after you save it as a jpg or use "Save For Web/Devices" to save it as a jpg).   Since almost everyone is running different uncalibrated monitors, there will be lots of variation in how it will look to them, so precise control of the color is unimportant.
That said, I would expect the color on a calibrated monitor (such as the one I use when editing) to be reasonably close to the colors I am seeing while editing in PS. To the extent a monitor deviates from "calibrated", those colors will vary, but a good monitor should show good colors.   Unfortunately, this is NOT the case, as my previous post shows. The colors produced by the steps above are oversaturated and significantly shifted in hue. There is, to my mind, anyway, no reason for this. Adobe clearly knows what the mapping is between the colors as it displays them in PS and the un-controlled "Monitor RGB" -- that is, it is the color map they are using during normal editing display. If they were to reverse-apply that map prior to saving it as a jpg, then the image would appear on a browser on that same (presumably calibrated) monitor very similar to what you set up when editing. Anyone else viewing the image on a web browser with a calibrated monitor would also see good colors. To the extent other viewers' monitors are out of calibration, their colors will suck, but there's nothing you can do about that.
I guess in some sense I AM "asking for a Color-Mamangement-solution for a "non-Color-Management-situation", but specifically I'm asking for PS Color Management to do the best it can for non-Color-Managed situations that we all face every day.
Does that make more sense?

Looking for a better solution to the "Save for web" color shift issue

Ok, everyone who has fussed much with photoshop and "Save For Web" knows about the color shift issue. If you want your colors to look right after you "save for web", you have to work in the sRGB colorspace, and have Proof Colors checked (soft proofing on) and the proof color setup set to Monitor RGB, otherwise what you get looks terrible when displayed in a browser.
But of course if you are editing for print, this is exactly what you DON'T want to do. Well, I work in both. In fact, often the same images, and I want them to appear as close as reasonably possible in both print and web formats, and without a lot of fussing on my part. And I'm pickiest about the print mode, since I have the most control there, so that's the way I want to edit by default.
Nothing new here.
Now comes the interesting part (in my mind, anyway). Obviously there is a known remapping -- because PhotoShop DOES it when you select Proof Colors. So the inverse mapping must also be known (with some gamut issues, but I'm not concerned with those, because, after all, I'm VIEWING it on a monitor anyway!). What I want is a plug-in that automatically applies that inverse mapping so that, when I do a Save For Web, I end up with the colors I've been viewing all the time when setting the shot up in print mode. Then, too, I don't have to worry about what mode I'm in when I'm editing -- it just fixes it when doing a save-for-web.
Again, I want to edit in my normal print mode (typically ProPhoto colorspace, and with soft-proofing off or set to the printer/medium combination I expect to use), then do a single operation (might be a multi-step action) to "screw up" my colors so that when I then do a "Save-For-Web", the resulting image, when viewed on the average color-stupid browser, looks like the image I've been seeing in Photoshop.
Anyone know of such a beast? I would gladly pay for a plug-in that really works and fixes the problem.
And if you have other solutions, I'm interested, but the absolute requirement is that it I do one single edit pass for my colors for both print and web use, and I get what I see on the screen in PS on both the prints and on the web display (i.e., working in sRGB/Monitor RGB mode all the time won't cut it). And PREFERABLY, let me do all my editing work in the ProPhoto (or at least AdobeRGB) colorspace so I have a gamut closer to what the printer can do.
Anyone got a decent solution for this?

Chris
I spent all day Googling and doing side by side comparisons of my old and new systems.
My display is a Dell U2410. It has several presets, including sRGB and Adobe RGB. I've been using sRGB.
On my OLD system, (Win XP, PsCS2, DwCS4) there seems to be no distinction between color managed and non color managed apps, even on this wide gamut display. I could capture (digital camera) in Adobe RGB, open and edit in PsCS2, save as .psd, convert to CMYK for print, or convert to sRGB for SFW. All images looked identical and they printed and displayed perfectly. I thought this was normal, and seemed logical. This also seems to be the source of my incorrect assumptions. I was trying to get my new machine to behave like my old one.
So I get this new machine (Windows 7, PsCS5, DwCS5) and now (still in sRGB display mode) all color managed apps appear de-saturated. Non color managed apps are OK. If I switch the display to Adobe RGB, color managed apps are OK, but non color managed apps are way too saturated. From my investigation, I believe this is normal behavior on a wide gamut display. I've tried changing the Control Panel > Display > Screen Resolution > Advanced settings > Color Management options, but to no avail. Either I'm missing something, or Windows 7 is doing color management differently.
It seems my only option now is to use Adobe RGB display setting for Ps, etc. and switch to sRGB for Dw and non color managed apps. Or, have 2 separate files for print and web. I've Googled 'til my eyes are numb and still not sure I'm getting this. Any enlightenment would be greatly appreciated.
Finally, I don't see an edit function here, so I can't remove my previous incorrect reply. Moderator, please feel free to do so.
Thanks

Save for web color shift - only on images smaller than 150x150px

I'm getting a color shift only on small images (150x150px or smaller) when I save for web in Photoshop CC and CS6. That's very weird as it doesn't happen to images larger than 150x150px! That issue happens with images with different measurements as well (e.g. rectangle), the small looks dull and the larger display the right color.
My Color Settings are set to "Monitor Color". Under save for web I have the following options not ticked: Embed Color Profile and Convert to sRGB. (viget.com/inspire/the-mysterious-save-for-web-color-shift)
I'm running the OS X 10.8.4 on a macbook pro, I tested that on both, Safari 6.0.5 and FF.
The squares in the screenshot were saved exatly the same way. The largerer displays the right color #FFCB32, but the smaller displays the color wrong.
I appreciate your help.
Cheers
P

JPG & PNG = Color Profile "Don't Color Manage this document". Save under save for web I have the following options not ticked: Embed Color Profile and Convert to sRGB. (viget.com/inspire/the-mysterious-save-for-web-color-shift)
Resizing in photoshop (Image Size), but the color shifts even with cropped image after save for web.

Premiere Pro CS6 and Media Encoder CS6 Color shift on export

Hello,
I am working on an early 2008 Mac Pro with 2 X 3.2 GHz Quad Core Intel Xeon Processors 32 GB of RAM a NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT 512 MB Graphics Card and I am running OS X 10.8.2.
I have the updated Version of Adobe Premiere Pro CS6 and Media Encoder CS6 through the awesome Subscription program that Adobe has started.
My footage is shot with the Canon 1D Mark IV shot 1920X1080 at 24 FPS
I am importing the camera files and then exporting them after I cut them up in to Quicktime Pro Res 422 HQ files
With the technical explination out of the way here is my problem. I have color right from the camera files that I like. and with out doing any thing to change the color I export the footage and get a dramatic color shift. The exported file looks desaturated and slightly green.
I have tried using Media Encoder CS6 to export my footage and that has the same result.
I started my career as a photographic retoucher and use photoshop and light room constantly so I am pretty confident that i know color. I also calibrate my Lacie 526 and Lacie 324i montiors monthly as well as have a sensor that will slightly shift the profile depending on the time of day.
I have attached three screen shots that show the color shift exactly. Now what I need is a solution. What I am not seeing is color settings for Premiere. I am totally open to any suggestions on what I might be doing incorrectly.
Ben

Benjamin Peterson wrote:
I started my career as a photographic retoucher and use photoshop and light room constantly so I am pretty confident that i know color. I also calibrate my Lacie 526 and Lacie 324i montiors monthly as well as have a sensor that will slightly shift the profile depending on the time of day.
I've been doing this for a few years now, and have come to some conclusions. Basically, the difference between still photography and video is like the difference between playing the trumpet and the sax. What you bring to the sax from playing trumpet is your ability to read music, what you know about composition, blending while playint with others, ect. But playing trumpet tells you nothing about how to physically play a sax. So it is with still photography and video.
For starters, your carefully calibrated computer monitor is just that, a computer monitor. It doesn't display the correct working space for video. What you need for WYSIWYG in video is a monitor that can show you the Rec.709 working space. Rec.709 has a different gamut, a different gamma, probably a different white point (D65), different phosphor colors, etc., etc., etc. Enought differences that it's difficult to make a computer monitor that can successfully display Rec.709. Yet there are a couple of computer monitors that can do this (a few Eizos, one HP). The vast majority of people doing serious color correction work in video use a production monitor for just this reason.
But a production monitor isn't enough. You also have to make sure that the signals you're sending the production monitor are correct. There's a sub-industry making signal converters for signals from NLE video cards (usually RGB based) -> signals for production monitors (usually YUV based).
That said, it is certainly possible to get a very good match between your NLE suite and a DVD / BD as displayed on an HDTV. But it's not as simple or easy as a calibrtated computer monitor for still photography use.
This is probably part of your problem. But Quicktime is probably the root of it. Quicktime is, well, I guess the polite way of saying it is that Quicktime is problematic. It gives all kinds of problems. Most people have abandoned it. You should too.

Color shift printing from Lightroom 1.3

Windows Vista, HP officejet Pro L7580 printer, Lightroom 1.3, Photoshop CS3. All that being said and having used Photoshop since ver 5 with a variety of printers I find myself stumped with my latest soup of hardware and software. Screen colors do not print out anywhere close on paper when I try to print from Lightroom. Move the file over via "edit in Photoshop" and print from there and everything is fine. In Photoshop, whether Photoshop or the printer controls the color there is no problem. In Lightroom, however I have no control that I can find. I have no additional profiles so the printer controls the color. Photoshop and the printer are both set to AdobeRGB1998.icc. Other then just printing from Photoshop what am I missing in Lightroom?
By the way Adobe, in the future think about either Lightroom or Bridge but not both.

Hi,
Just a reminder for those who missed that thread (I guess this fix also
applies to LR 1 although I didn't check):
[FIX] Darker prints and color shifts when printing from Lightroom 2
(this is for Windows - Mac users please look here for a similar fix:
http://www.computer-darkroom.com/lr_13_print/lightroom_print.htm )
The problem :
When printing RAW or TIFF files from LR2, you get a printer output that
is much darker than it should be and that presents various color shifts.
I'm using an Epson Stylus Pro 3800 with the latest Windows driver
(6.50 - which is rather old by the way). The workaround described below
works for me under Windows XP SP3. It should also probably work with
other systems/printers/drivers. Use at your own (minor) risk.
The "official" procedure for printing from LR is as follows:
1. Do not let the printer manage colors and select "Other..." from the
profile dropdown list and select the ICC/ICM paper/printer profile that
you want to use.
2. Click on Print... in LR which opens the Print Settings dialog.
3. Select the options you need and the paper you're using.
4. *Disable the color management from the driver's side* (in Epson's
drivers, "Mode | Custom | No Color Adjustments").
5. Print
Unfortunately, *this doesn't work* for many of us and this produces a
print that is dark and has color shifts as mentioned above. Note that
the same image prints correctly from QImage or Photoshop CS3 (that is,
the printer output corresponds to what you see on your calibrated
display).
Apparently, although color management has been (allegedly) disabled in
the driver, there's something wrong between LR and the driver which
makes that both LR and the driver are still trying to manage colors. In
other words, the "No Color Adjustements" option of the driver doesn't
seem to work with LR.
The workaround (found after hours of hair pulling and paper and
expensive ink wasting):
In step #4,
1. Instead of selecting "No Color Adjustments", set Mode to "Custom |
ICM
2. Click Advanced...
3. Check "Show all profiles".
4. Select Driver ICM (Advanced)"
5. Set *both* the "Input profile" and the "Printer profile" fields to
the very same profile that you specified in LR.
That is, if you specified Pro38 PGPP (Premium Glossy Photo Paper) in LR,
then also select Pro38 PGPP in both "Input Profile" and "Printer
Profile". This has actually the same effect has disabling color
management in the driver (what "No Color Adjustements" should normally
take care of).
That's it. When printing, you'll get exactly the same color results as
when printing from QImage or Photoshop. No more dark prints. No more
color shifts.
One might think that the bug is in the Epson driver but in that case,
QImage would have the very same problem. So I tend to think that the bug
is on the Lightroom side.
Hope this helps.
Patrick

[FIX] Darker prints and color shifts when printing from Lightroom 2

Hi,
The problem :
When printing RAW or TIFF files from LR2, you get a printer output that
is much darker than it should be and that presents various color shifts.
I'm using an Epson Stylus Pro 3800 with the latest Windows driver
(6.50 - which is rather old by the way). The workaround described below
works for me under Windows XP SP3. It should also probably work with
other systems/printers/drivers. Use at your own (minor) risk.
The "official" procedure for printing from LR is as follows:
1. Do not let the printer manage colors and select "Other..." from the
profile dropdown list and select the ICC/ICM paper/printer profile that
you want to use.
2. Click on Print... in LR which opens the Print Settings dialog.
3. Select the options you need and the paper you're using.
4. **Disable the color management from the driver's side** (in Epson's
drivers, "Mode | Custom | No Color Adjustments").
5. Print
Unfortunately, **this doesn't work** for many of us and this produces a
print that is dark and has color shifts as mentioned above. Note that
the same image prints correctly from QImage or Photoshop CS3 (that is,
the printer output corresponds to what you see on your calibrated
display).
Apparently, although color management has been (allegedly) disabled in
the driver, there's something wrong between LR and the driver which
makes that *both* LR and the driver are still trying to manage colors.
In other words, the "No Color Adjustements" option of the driver doesn't
seem to work with LR.
The workaround (found after hours of hair pulling and paper and
expensive ink wasting):
In step #4,
1. Instead of selecting "No Color Adjustments", set Mode to "Custom |
ICM
2. Click Advanced...
3. Check "Show all profiles".
4. Select Driver ICM (Advanced)"
5. Set **both** the "Input profile" and the "Printer profile" fields to
the very same profile that you specified in LR.
That is, if you specified Pro38 PGPP (Premium Glossy Photo Paper) in LR,
then also select Pro38 PGPP in both "Input Profile" and "Printer
Profile". This has actually the same effect has disabling color
management in the driver (what "No Color Adjustements" should normally
take care of).
That's it. When printing, you'll get exactly the same color results as
when printing from QImage or Photoshop. No more dark prints. No more
color shifts.
One might think that the bug is in the Epson driver but in that case,
QImage would have the very same problem. So I tend to think that the bug
is on the Lightroom side.
Note: Although Photoshop CS3 produces a correct printer output, it
demonstrates the same problem as LR when using the "Match Print Color"
option for soft proofing. But in that case, only the preview colors are
wrong. The printer output is ok. Which also tends to demonstrate that
Adobe has the problem, not Epson. Or maybe both... :-) .
Don't ask me why some users have the problem and other don't.
Hope this helps.
Patrick Philippot
MainSoft Consulting Services
www.mainsoft.fr

A sincere thank you for your reply, Michael. Sorry about the "it just doesn't make sense" shortcut. I have been trying to solve this issue since LR 1.1, spending dozens of hours on different trials and digesting everything written on this forum and the B9180 forum about color management and double profiling. My shortcut was a summation of my experience (and my frustration) but doesn't really advance the conversation. Here are some data that should be more useful in diagnosing the problem.
I am running Windows XP SP2. I calibrate my monitor monthly with the Spyder. The reason I suspect this may be an issue of double profiling is because the results (moderately strong magenta overlay plus an increase in contrast) match what more knowledgeable people than I on this forum describe when double profiling occurs. Perhaps I shouldn't presume it is double profiling, and follow Patrick Philippot's lead in naming the problem "color shifts." Patrick does refer in post #2 of this thread, however, to obvious double profiling.
I certainly do have a successful and consistent print method. With PS CS3, and either my Epson 1280 or my HP B9180, the output is almost always dead on. Here is how I do it. In PS from the print dialog box, under color handling I always choose "Photoshop manages colors." Then under printer profile I select the profile designated by the manufacturer for a particular paper/printer combination. Then in the printer driver I disable printer control of color. With the Epson I check the box "Off (No Color Adjustment)." With the B9180 I choose the option "Application Managed Colors." While I sometimes may tweak the final output, these procedures have served me well with PS for several years.
Contrasted with my positive PS experience, my experience with LR printing has been inconsistent. I regret having to be so imprecise but truly sometimes LR produces accurate results that match the calibrated monitor, but most of the time it does not. I use standard procedures with LR that parallel the PS ones described above. In LR's printing panel, under color management, I specify the correct profile, just as I did for PS. Then in the printer driver I use the same procedures I use with PS. Most of the time the prints have the magenta overlay and too much contrast.
BTW, the inconsistent LR printing only takes place with my HP B9180. I have never had any problem with off-color LR prints with my Epson 1280. Again, I emphasize that I have standard procedures that always work with PS (no matter which printer) and LR (but only with the Epson).
Unfortunately the LR printing problems are intermittent. Some of the time (perhaps 20%) LR produces fine prints in the B9180, indistinguishable from PS prints. When LR is printing well, it will continue to print fine until "something happens" and the output shows the color shift. This means I do not get a random sequence of good-bad-good-bad prints, but rather good-good-x factor-bad-bad-bad. Ths problem is that I do not know what this "x factor" is. Once, when LR was giving me accurate output, I simply changed the default printer (Control Panel-Printers and Faxes) from the B9180 to my Samsung 1430 laser; immediately afterwards the LR output colors shifted. Did LR react to this change in default printers? Another time I had good LR printing success with version 1.2 but ran into the problems described above when I upgraded to version 1.3.
Sorry for the long post. I am hoping that someone will see something that I am missing and provide a hint. I think, though, that Patrick is correct when he states, "I tend to think that the problem is with LR. After all, similar issues (obvious double profiling) are observed only in LR but with various printers."

PDF Color Shift On Windows Platform

OK, here goes:
I still can't print double-sided on my Mac, although the colors reproduce perfectly on our Canon office printer. Grays print neutral gray.
So in order to print double sided documents, I export out of InDesign to a PDF file. I transfer the PDF over to my Windows machine, and then I can print double-sided to this same Canon office printer. (The Windows printer driver enables the double-sided print feature that is not available on the Mac side, no matter what printer driver I use.)
My problem is the PDF prints with a color shift in it, and the nice neutral grays are shifted or "biased" with an obvious color cast. The color shift is unacceptable.
What am I overlooking? Is there a checkbox I've overlooked during the export process?
Grays are hard to print "neutral", of course, on any printer but they actually come out perfectly when printing on the Mac side to the same printer.
Can anyone offer any suggestions to produce accurate color from a PDF on a Windows machine? Printing from the native InDesign file results in perfect color.
Thanks.

Thanks for that tip, Geo.
Since this is a large office-type Canon color copier/scanner/printer, we don't even bother running any color management on this machine. Occasionally the office machine tech's come out to clean, calibrate, and replace the toner cartridges, but this printer is more of a common office printer than anything else.
I can get neutral colors while printing from a Mac, but Windows somehow throws a color shift into my prints.
I commonly use printer profiles attached to PhotoShop files to get them to print correctly on certain printers, but I don't see any profile options when exporting from InDesign to a PDF.
Thanks again.

H264 HD Color Shift

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