HDV to AIC to HDV - Does it recompress?

So, let's say I record some HDV on my Canon HV20. Here is my workflow.
HDV -> Apple Intermediary Codec (iMovie) editing -> Export to Camera (HDV)
Does it have to recompress when I send to back to the camera? I'm concerned about losing quality.

Good question. The old DV transfers are non-lossy (if they are kept in the DV domain): even after the Nth generation the quality is the same (well, the occasional dropped frames are the fly in the ointment...).
On the other hand, HDV uses lossy MPEG2 compression (AVCHD uses more advanced but still lossy MPEG4, H.264 compression). Those are converted to AIC while editing in iMovie and re-compressed to MPEG2/MPEG4 when sending back to camcorder. (DV is kept as DV so there is no quality loss although also DV is a lossy 5:1 codec).
So yes, you lose some quality in HDV and AVCHD <-> AIC conversions. I don't have any HD gear to test how much quality loss per generation there is.
This thread may interest you:
http://discussions.apple.com/message.jspa?messageID=6145417#6145417
BTW, iMovie HD 6 allows one to export as a .m2t file (in the export to a Camcorder options) so that allows to test HDV without a HD camcorder. But I don't have any good original HDV video for testing.
Anyway, I just did a quick test with a high resolution still image input in a HD project but there the 2nd generation was similar to the 1st generation (I used MPEG Streamclip to convert the .m2t to AIC-encoded .mov and then used QT Player to copy a frame from it to the Clipboard and GraphicConverter (Command-J to copy the Clipboard and Command-Option-Tab to cycle the images) to compare the quality.

Similar Messages

IMovie HD6: HDV to AIC to HDV... quality loss?

Hi All,
I'm curious, when I use my normal workflow (HDV to AIC (imovie 6) to HDV), does it lose quality?
If so:
* Is there a way to avoid this?
* How much quality is lost? Is there a visual comparison available?
Thanks for any input!

Dear catspaw,
Here are my thoughts, based on my experiences, and what I think I understand of all this..
1. Standard-definition DV (those little tapes, or the larger 'broadcast' tapes) is pretty much compression-free ..we-ell, strictly speaking there's some, but relatively little, compression used in DV. It looks perfect, although it is slightly compressed. The material recorded onto tape - and imported into iMovie - contains every frame which the camcorder optics see. So editing it is simple: all the frames get copied into iMovie, and you can chop out, or insert, anything you want. Using iMovie HD 6, or earlier, you can then copy the edited material back to a DV camcorder ..all the frames get shuffled out of the computer and back onto tape again. (You can't do that with iMovie '08, as it has no option to Export to Camcorder.) What you see in iMovie - after importing from a DV camcorder - isn't exactly the same as what you've imported, because iMovie runs on a computer, and uses a computer display, and that generally shows complete "progressive" frames of video, whereas a TV ..or TVs with cathode ray tubes; precursors to the latest LCD or DLP or plasma TVs.. will generally show interlaced 'half-frames' one after the other, each comprising half the TV picture, but shown in such rapid succession that they blur into each other, and our brains see a succession of complete frames.
(..Here's a good visual representation from one of Adam Wilt's pages:
..There are two 'fields' of video, each made of half the entire number of lines down the screen, superimposed on each other, and blending into a full frame of video comprised of all the lines. That's what happens on a TV screen when the interlaced 'fields' of video blend together..)
So standard-def DV is really plain and simple, and there should be no quality loss after shooting, importing, editing, exporting.
2. Hi-def. A can of worms. There are several different varieties of "hi-def". What we're working with in our 'amateur' movie program, iMovie, is generally the HDV version of hi-def, or the AVCHD version. (And a few people may be working with JVC's version of 'progressive' frames, but with a lower total number of lines down the screen: 720p, instead of 1080i. 720p has 720 pixels down the screen, and records and presents an entire 'progressive' ..one-line-after-the-other.. frame of video at a time, whereas 1080i shows 1080 pixels down the screen, consisting of half that number, 540; all the 'odd-numbered' lines.. at a time, immediately followed by the other half ..the even-numbered lines.. slotting in-between the previous lot. That repeating pair of 540 'interleaved' lines gives a total of 1080 interlaced lines in every frame. Movement appears smoother using 1080i (..after all, the picture is refreshed twice as often as with single-complete-frame 'progessive' video..) but may not look as super-sharp as progressive video, because at any moment there's only half the total information of a frame onscreen. 'Interlaced' video is smoother, and any action flows more "creamily", whereas 'progressive' may be considered 'sharper' (..it is if you freeze a frame..) but more jerky.)
So our 'amateur' hi-def movies may be recorded as HDV, AVCHD or some other similar format. 'Professional', or broadcast-intended, hi-def may consist of several other non-amateur formats, some of which are completely uncompressed and require extremely fast links between the cameras and recording equipment, and massive-capacity hard discs to capture and edit the huge quantity of data which such cameras..
..deliver ..for $150,000. Or here's a remote-control broadcast hi-def camera for (only) $7,995..
(..Tell me if I'm boring you..)
The hi-def cameras which we're more likely to be using..
..record compressed video in MPEG-2 format, or H.264, or some similar codec. The idea behind HDV was that the companies which make 'consumer-grade' (amateur) camcorders wanted a method to record hi-def - with about 4x the data of standard-def - onto the little miniDV tapes which we were all familiar with. So a method was found to squeeze 4x the data onto a tape which normally records standard-def DV data at 25 megabits per second. The method decided upon was MPEG-2 ..the same codec which is used to squeeze a two-hour Hollywood film onto a little 4.7GB capacity DVD. (Bollywood movies, as distinct from Hollywood movies, tend to be three hours long!)
If MPEG-2 was good enough for the latest cinema releases, in nice, sharp, sharper-than Super-VHS form, then it was thought to be good enough for 'domestic' hi-def recordings. The only awkward thing about that - from an editing point of view.. (..but which of the camcorder manufacturers are seriously interested in editing..? ..they primarily want to sell 'product' which - according to their advertising - is terrific at simply recording and playing-back video. Like car advertising shows you how wonderful cars are to sit in and for travelling to places, but the adverts don't tell you about how tricky it may be to get into the rear sidelights and replace a blown bulb..) ..is that in HDV there's only one 'real' frame for every 15 frames recorded on the tape. The other 14 are just indications of what's different between the various frames. Therefore, for editing, the 'missing' frames must be rebuilt during import into iMovie.
Steve Jobs heralded 2005 - at MacWorld, you may remember - as the "Year of HD!" ..It became possible to import and edit hi-def in iMovie ..that is, the HDV version of hi-def, not the uncompressed 'professional' broadcast version of hi-def, of course.. but ONLY with a fast enough computer ..and many weren't fast enough to import and convert HDV to editable-format in real-time (..no mention of it being the year you would import at half, or a quarter, or an eighth, real-time ..ugh-ugh).
So HDV gets converted to AIC to make it editable ..and then what d'you do with it? ..Few (none of them?) HDV camcorders let you import HDV back to tape from iMovie. No Macs had/have Blu-Ray burners ..although you can burn about 20 mins of hi-def onto normal DVDs with a Mac's normal inbuilt SuperDrive DVD burner with the appropriate software ..DVD Studio Pro, or Toast, etc.
(..Once again, there was some omission from the hoopla ..yes; you can import HDV! ..yes; you can edit HDV! ..er, no, sorry; no mention that you can't burn a 1 hour hi-def home video onto a hi-def DVD with a Mac ..iDVD would/will only burn in standard-def, and there are no Blu-Ray burners built into Macs..)
Then came AVCHD (Advanced Video Codec; High Definition). This compresses video even more than HDV (whose compression is pretty much invisible, and is in regular use for broadcast material) by using a different method. And along came progressive hi-def recording, trying to supersede HDV's generally 'interlaced' 1080i hi-def.
But the problem with progressive, non-interlaced AVCHD is that if there's rapid movement in a scene - if you move the camera, or something rapidly crosses the picture - instead of the "creamy flow" of interlaced video, there's a jerky lurch from one frame to the next. And with the added extra compression of AVCHD this jerkiness can be (..to my mind..) even more horribly evident.
Anyway, unscrambling ..and then re-assembling.. hi-def interlaced MPEG-2 HDV is pretty much invisible - to me, anyway. The video looks sharp, moves smoothly, looks 'true-to-life' and doesn't have terrible artifacts and jerks.
Unscrambling ..and then re-assembling.. hi-def interlaced or progressive AVCHD (..which is sometimes described as MPEG-4 or H.264..) - I know that you know this, but I'm also writing for others here - isn't quite as simple as doing the same for tape-based MPEG-2 hi-def HDV. Here's all the gobbledegook about what AVCHD can consist of.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-4_AVC
..Oh, and here's a bit about the "usability" of AVCHD: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVCHD
There are many more 'varieties' of encoding in AVCHD than in 'simpler' hi-def, such as HDV. There's less data sent in an AVCHD data stream than HDV (..AVCHD has jumped from 17MBits/sec to 24MBits/sec ..just below HDV's 25MBits/sec..) so the video is more compressed than HDV. And there are all sorts of video formats (interlaced, progressive, HD, 'Full' HD) which are recorded by different cameras under the all-embracing 'AVCHD' label. iMovie - or a Mac - has to work much harder to unscramble and convert the more-compressed AVCHD format(s) than uncompressing HDV. And has to work harder to compress the output of iMovie to H.264 (an AVCHD codec) than when re-compressing to MPEG-2 (the codec for standard-def DVDs and hi-def HDV).
To - finally! - come back to your question "..is there therefore no advantage in using DV tape-based vidcams for editing purposes.." I'd say that there ARE advantages in using tape-based vidcams for editing purposes ..using your two categories:
1. Non-hi-def tape-based DV is ..to all intents and purposes.. lossless. And the material can be imported in real-time, and be output - with no loss - in real-time, too, using any Mac from an old G3 onwards. Importing non-tape material into iMovie ..e.g; miniDVDs, or chip-based, more compressed video.. is more long-winded, and generally has to go through various external bits of software (..e.g; MPEG Streamclip or somesuch..) to put it into a format that's editable in iMovie. AVCHD can, theoretically - as 'AVC', without the 'HD' - be used for recording in standard-def, but there are currently few AVCHD camcorders which are built to record standard-def video as well ..there is the Sony HDR-SR12. But only iMovie running on an Intel-powered Mac will decode AVCHD, apart from separate standalone Mac software such as 'Voltaic'.
2. Hi-def tape-based recording IS an advantage on anything that's less than the fastest, or highest-powered, of Macs, because it needs less "horsepower" to "unpack" the compressed data and to get it into an editable format through recovering, or rebuilding, the necessary individual frames. I think it's an advantage in every case, as not only can tape-based hi-def be edited on older, slower Macs (including pre-Intel Macs) but also:
(a) HDV data's less compressed, and so motion is generally expressed - currently - more "fluidly" than with the more compressed hard-disc or chip-stored AVCHD,
(b) HDV original material is "self-archived" onto its tapes ..you don't have to "empty" a camcorder's hard disc or memory chips onto something else - such as a separate hard drive - in order to re-use, or continue using, the camcorder: you just drop in another cheap 1-hour tape,
(c) Tape-containing camcorders tend to be heavier, less lightweight, than fewer-moving-parts chip-based AVCHD camcorders. They're therefore inherently less "wobbly" and don't tremble so much in your hand ..that gives smoother, less "jiggled-about" recordings ..even taking into account the stabilisation built into most camcorders,
(d) Tape-based camcorders are less likely to lose an entire 'shoot' by being dropped or mis-treated. Material already recorded onto a tape will not be damaged if you drop the camera and its tape-heads thereby become misaligned. The data can be recovered by simply ejecting the tape and popping it into another camcorder. If a hard-disc camcorder is dropped, subsequent head misalignment may mean that all data already on the hard disc is irrecoverable. If a memory chip becomes corrupted, all data may similarly become irrecoverable. If a tape becomes damaged, it's usually only a few seconds' worth which be lost. (..I dropped a tape-based camcorder in the sea when I was trying to get shots of waves coming in onto the beach from an offshore viewpoint, and a wave washed right over me and knocked me down. The camcorder was a write-off, but I managed to prise the tape out, and recover the 30 minutes of movie I'd already recorded. I don't really want to test it, but I have doubts about whether I'd have been able to recover my video from a similarly-drowned hard-disc based camcorder ..maybe, in the interests of factual objectivity I'll try it some day with an old, no-longer-used 2.5" hard disc..)
(e) AVCHD camcorders - unless you're looking at 'semi-pro' or professional 'cost-a-plenty' record-to-chip camcorders, or that Sony HD12..
..are generally built for "point-and-shoot" amateurs. This means that AVCHD camcorders generally do not have the assortment of manual controls which you find on most tape-based HDV camcorders (..because the camcorder makers also aim, or aimed, HDV at low-cost broadcast users, too). There's usually far greater flexibility and more shooting options (shutter speeds, exposure, audio handling) on tape-based HDV camcorders than can be found on AVCHD camcorders. If you're just pointing and shooting, that doesn't matter ..but if you want to shoot good-looking video, there are generally - and it is a generalisation - more adjustment options to be found on a tape-based camcorder than on a chip-based or hard-disc AVCHD camcorder. In my experience - yours may be different - people tempted by AVCHD camcorders tend to buy (..and manufacturers tend to publicise..) high pixel counts (like "Full HD 1920x1080") and that magic word "progressive" (perhaps because it has the flavour, in English, of "futuristic" or "more advanced") rather than their being concerned with choices of apertures or shutter speeds and the clearest representation of what the camcorder's pointing at.
In summary ..at last!.. "..is there therefore no advantage in using DV tape-based vidcams for editing purposes.." Yes; the advantages, I believe, are that HDV converts fast into AIC for editing; my perception is that HDV delivers smoother action (onscreen movement) than AVCHD; and with a suitable deck..
..HDV can be returned back to tape, whereas it's more long-winded and needs more subterfuge to export AVCHD back to a chip, or a camcorder's hard disc, for in-camera replay ..and thence out to an HDTV.
As always, these are simply my opinions ..others may disagree.

HDV and AIC has changes iMovie 10 to iMovie 11

This is baffling me .. Maybe its happened after I upgraded to iMovie 11. Maybe not - Im hoping someone at Apple is reading this ..
Firstly we use a Sony Z1E camera - Normally we use FCP to get in the digital files .. What we do is as follows
1. Capture all to the memory card in the camera
2. Use clipwrap to pull the files into the harddrive - Just re-wrap not change anything faster than log and transfer
We end up with Apple HDV files - They are seen fine in FCP ad also were in iMovie .. I shall explain
So here is what is happening
Over the last week - I have brought in some of the HDV files into iMovie - Whats interesting is that they are seen in iMovie as HDV files (Not Apple Intermediate Codec) - Great - They are at the best quality possible.
However now whats happening is when I move files into iMovie they are seen as AIC files - Somehow iMovie 11 is transcoding them from HDV to AIC -- This seems to have happened when I upgraded to iMovie 11 (I did that last week) - it seems to be happening after the upgrade
Anyone got any ideas on how to keep them as HDV -- (AIC just pops down the quality) as we have FCP on our machines we can then output in HDV again from iMovie -- Its just a really quick way of us editing .
Suggestions welcome -- Maybe there is a setting that Im missing - But I dont see how i got HDV files in before to iMovie and they were left as HDV but now they are transcoded. Perhaps I should reinstall the FCP onto the machine again - So that it goes on after the iMovie upgrade.
I would really like to maintain HDV as the codec in the files and not transcode them - It really pulls down the quality which is especially noticable as noise on dark colours in lower light .
Odd but Im totally baffled.
thanks

Hi
I have noticed the same thing and here is how you "fix the problem"
1. Start a new event and import 1 HDV file and that will be converted to AIC
Let´s call the event TEST. When that is done close iMovie
2 Go to where you have your iMovie events folder and open the folder and in there you will find your TEST event, open that also and there you will see your imported HDV/AIC file.
Delete the file and leave everything else in there as it is.
3 Move your HDV files that you want in the event (Copy and paste) in to the same folder and then close the folder
4 Start iMovie and when it starts it will say something like that it is creating thumbnails or whatever.
The point is that now you event will be native HDV and not converted to AIC
Good luck
Cheers
Hans

Converting HDV 1080i 60 into HDV 1080 p 30

Hello guys,
I have HDV 1080 i 60 video. All I need is to make it progressive, so it would play good on computers.
I did import the file into Compressor and choose - High Definition/HDV 1080i 60.
In Inspector i go to Encoder tab and set COMPRESSION TAB to: HDV 1080p 30, KEY FRAMES to: All.
Now, is this enough or do I still need to go to FRAME CONTROLS and change Output Fields to progressive?
Or what would be the easiest way of doing this?
Thanks

When you say play on the computer, a HDV file may be kind of glitchy for many computers.
Usually reducing the size of the movie (not full HDV size) and using H.264 or other Codec is one option (though H.264 on larger movies on older computers often is not all great shakes)
For general computer playback I will usually go to 1/2 or 1/4 size and tweak the Frame Controls. Usually start with a preset for QuickTime 7 LAN then in frame controls resize "better" and deinterlace "better" to start with.

No external video from HDV timeline through Sony HDV deck.

Without buying an external video card, is there a way to view an HDV timeline on an external monitor? I can capture HDV footage easily and see it play back fine in the Canvas on my Mac Pro, but I can't see the captured HDV footage on my external monitor that's hooked up via FireWire to my Sony HVR-M25 deck.
Here are the Audio/Video Settings I'm using:
Sequence Preset is HDV - 1080i60
Capture Preset is HDV
Device Control Preset os Sony HDV Firewire
I'm also noticing that the Video Playback HDV options are grayed out, so I'm assuming I would either need an external video card to play back the capture HDV footage the timeline on my external monitor, or use another combination of codecs to (maybe) use my stock Mac Pro setup. Whew.
Thanks in advance.

No. Sorry, but the format doesn't allow it. You can send a downconverted SD signal out via firewire in realtime, but it won't be your full HD image. If you want the full HD image, you need an HD capture device. #25 HDV external Monitor Viewing
Shane's Stock Answer #25 - HDV external Monitor Viewing
To view HDV on an external monitor in high definition you are going to need to purchase a capture card, like the ones Decklink (www.decklink.com) or AJA (www.aja.com) offer. They will both play out HDV in real time. The catch is that you cannot view this on a regular TV or NTSC monitor. Since this is HD, an HD monitor will be needed. HOWEVER, both cards are capable of down converting the signal so that it can be displayed on an SD monitor. This won't be color accurate
The real reason why you can't monitor HDV through a Firewire camera is because Firewire HDV cameras don't decode incoming HDV streams and route them to their outputs like DV cameras do.
Good options for you are the Matrox MXO2 mini...$450...coupled with an HDTV. Or a Matrox MXO (DVI connection) coupled with an Apple 23" display gets you good quality.
And there are the Decklink Intensity and Intensity PRO cards as well, and the AJA I/O Express...
You can, however, view HDV out via firewire as DV...lowering the resolution to that of DV, but still viewable. This is not full quality nor should it be used to judge the quality of your footage or used to color correct to. This is just a way to view the footage on a large monitor.
Here are some examples of some of the possibilities:
- DV or HDV sequence output to an SDI signal on a third-party interface
- An uncompressed NTSC or PAL sequence output to a DV FireWire output
- An HDV sequence output to a DV FireWire output
Sequence and output formats must have compatible frame rates. For example,
sequences with a frame rate of 60, 30, or 24 fps can be output to a 30 fps device,
but not to a 25 or 50 fps device.
Shane

CS5: Export HDV 720p30 Timeline to HDV MPG File

Hi-
Hopefully a simple question. I want to export my HDV 720p30 timeline to a file without introducing any additional compression (or very minimal). In searching for a solution, I read that you can connect an HDV deck, select output to tape, let the sequence render, and then search for a MPG file in the cache that's essentially the rendered sequence's HDV MPG file. Since I don't have an HDV deck anymore, is there an easier way? Should I just export MPG with the highest quality settings? What specifically should I choose? Ideally, I'd like to be able to just drag this 'edited master sequence'' back into the timeline as a 'raw' HDV 720p30 source file down the road. Thanks in advance.

Thanks Colin-
Thanks. I do understand the additional level of compression. Even though the sequences are only a few minutes each, I don't think it's worth dealing with the huge file sizes, etc. I was just looking for the 'ideal' way to backup the master sequence - something the most equivalent to providing 'an edited master' via HDV tape.
I suppose I could have used an intermediary codec like Cineform, but it's really not worth it. What would be a good alternate (or less compressed) alternative?

Capture HDV Disk requirements for HDV 60i Frame Rate

As a general rule, how much disk space is needed to capture HDV recorded in 60i mode which is 60fps interlaced (same as TV signal) frame rate? Any clues appreciated. Thank you.
iMac 1.83Ghz Intel Core Duo Mac OS X (10.4.8) Canon XLH1 HDV Camcorder

Matthew just posted in another topic that 1hr of HDV video uses about 22GB of storage space.
(..1hr of standard def DV needs about 13GB of storage..)

Jpeg date/time adjust, does it recompress?

If I edit the date time taken will this recompress my file?
also is the rotation of a photo in meta data?

Changing the date, caption, notes, star rating, or map location won't recompress a JPEG. These fields are stored in the file's metadata section, separate from the actual image.
If you rotate a JPEG in the Editor, it will recompress it.
If you rotate a JPEG in the Organizer, it won't recompress it, as long as its pixel height and width is divisible by 16. If they aren't, PSE will warn you and will create a new version for the rotated image.
Also, if you have the option Edit > Preferences > Files > Rotate JPEGs Using Orientation Metadata set, then PSE rotates a photo by changing an industry-standard metadata field, not by rotating the actual image. But I don't recommend using that, since many programs don't understand that field.

Copying (dubbing) HDV tape with 2 HDV cameras?

My friend and I are filming a show (no computers around). We are using a Sony HC1 and Sony HC3 and needing to copy a couple of tapes directly from one camera to the other camera. We won't have access to compuers. So after copying I will having exact copies of his tapes and he will have exact copies of mine.
Thx-

You have the cameras, which means you have the manuals (collectively)
As the old saying goes, RTFM.
It usually consists of plug in cable, set receiver to record, set sender to play. The manuals will tell you what the settings for each should be in order to send HD and record HD. Obviously you don't want to remove pulldown or convert the signal to SD as you send it.

Does media encoder recompress dv/hdv

i've looked thru the "knowledgebase" and thru the forums and could only find this instance:
http://forums.adobe.com/message/1904986#1904986
i thought the default in CS4 when rendering video was if the source video and the target render was the same the adobe media encoder wouldn't recompress the video.
the only reason i ask was becuase i have a 5min file that i rendered out in CS4 and it took roughly 5min to render out. which to me means that CS4 is recompressing the file when rendering. I still have CS2 installed in the same system. i transferred my edit via .aaf to CS2 and just added the video transitions, the project was just transitions and overlays.It took half that time to render out with the "recompress" unchecked.
i have an:
intel core2 quad w/2.4G
2Gig Ram
winXP sp3
i don't normally do this, usually my projects go straight to DVD via encore. i've only started using CS4 for the last 6 months. is my computer system not optimized for CS4, which would explain the longer rendering time or does AME recompress video that has the same source to target specs?

Jeff, you've got a point. CS3 didn't do GREAT. I tended to use the old 2003 Microsoft WMV encoder as well. But, the Media Encoder in CS3 at least allowed me the turn on or off the "deinterlace" feature when I was converting from DV to WMV. The option to turn it on or off was on the left, not in the codec settings. It was next to the crop controls. If I turned it on, then when I wanted to turn a 720X480 DV AVI into a 640X480 WMV, the fields got blended, but at least I kept all the detail of eyes, letters, etc. and only the motion got blended. If I left the deinterlace turned off, then the fields stayed and you got a 640X480 WMV that looked like it had jagged edges because both fields got encoded "as is" with no loss or dopping."
The new one does give me the option of turning "interlacing" on or off, but off blurs everything vertically, even when I'm not resizing height. So eyes become blurs and sharp serif fonts become these blurred rounded things. The processing shouold follow the F4V/H.264 model where field order determines deinterlacing order.
I prefer not to use AviSynth or Virtualdub, except when absolutely necessary. I'm trying to have a workflow that other media employees (who only know Adobe) can follow without asking me every 5 minutes. there are 4 of us who do video, but I'm the only one who has a serious knowledge base. The others are cameramen or Flash developers who cross trained.

Does HDV improve SD/DVD quality

Hallo,
I want to switch to HDV for personal use only, but can't affort to buy a HDV camera and big HD television at the same time. So I have to decide wich one to buy first. So there are some questions maybe someone can answer.
So far I have been recording DV 4:3 PAL with a Canon MVX2i and a Panasonic GS400 and I have been happy with the results. Last year I have made some recordings in 16:9 but in my opinion the quality with both cameras is not very good, esspecially with shots where the camera is not really stable. The picture seem to fall apart a little. I do realize the pixels are streched and with the same amount of pixels it can't have the same quality as 4:3. But on (cable) television there is sometimes a broadcast that doesn't seem to have this "falling apart" effect ( a lot do ) while it uses the same mpeg (720x540) stream as the others.
So my first question: If I buy one of the cheap Canon or Sony HDV cameras and shoot HDV 16:9 footage, edit as HDV and convert it straight to mpeg2 for a regular DVD with compressor, would this give me a noticable quality improvement compared to DV 16:9 to DVD? It doesn't have to be more sharp but does it give a more solid picture?
Second question: Does above workflow decreases the effect of those bend, moving lines you see on for instant brick walls while the camera is moving slightly, because of the lines of the chips and the wall interferance?
Third and last question: Somewhere (I can't find it anymore) in this forum I read something about more artifacts around moving objects in HDV like in low rate mpeg compared to DV. Is this true?
Thank you for your respons.

So my first question: If I buy one of the cheap Canon
or Sony HDV cameras and shoot HDV 16:9 footage, edit
as HDV and convert it straight to mpeg2 for a regular
DVD with compressor, would this give me a noticable
quality improvement compared to DV 16:9 to DVD?
Absolutely not, assuming you are comparing good quality cameras of either format. HDV has a noisier compression scheme, and you will also lose definition (compared to starting SD) when you scale the HDV down for the DVD.
You will get somewhat more definition horizontally with HDV compared to anamorphic SD, but only if the SD is displayed anamorphically rather than letterbox. I think you would notice other problems before you would notice this improvement.
It doesn't have to be more sharp but does it give a more
solid picture?
No. Again look at the quality of your SD camera.
Second question: Does above workflow decreases the
effect of those bend, moving lines you see on for
instant brick walls while the camera is moving
slightly, because of the lines of the chips and the
wall interferance?
It would tend to increase that effect, which again with a decent camera is almost non-existent.
Third and last question: Somewhere (I can't find it
anymore) in this forum I read something about more
artifacts around moving objects in HDV like in low
rate mpeg compared to DV. Is this true?
Yes, HDV has motion artifacts from interframe compression, and DV doesn't. DV does have compression artifacts but all compression occurs within each frame.
If you do go HDV, be sure you understand the effect it will have on your ability to capture, edit, to monitor, to work with any particular camera or flavor of HDV. It is never a simple out-of-the-box solution and often requires more $$ than one thought.
Don't get me wrong here: HDV has lots of promise and can be very useful and improve quality in many situations. But for SD-only output it isn't going to help and will most likely hurt.

Which HDV does FCP support?

I'm interested in shooting in HDV and cut it on FCP. But there seems to be 2 different types of HDV from Sony, and JVC. I'm quite confused:
1) Which one can be cut on FCP.
2) Can it be output to any deck such as Digibetacam?
3) Can it be input or output to a deck by component, S-video or composit? Will it lose quality?
4) does FCP support the new Panasinic P2 camera?
5) Fianlly, is there any different between the Sony & JVC HDV's, both in cameras and in Decks (if there's any)?
I'm leaning towards the JVC HDV. But if FCP does not support it, I'll have a problem.
Thanks for anyone with any insight.

1) FCP mainly supports the Sony format, but also supports the JVC format, although ONLY the 720p30 setting, not 24p. You can also use HDVxDV to convert the footage to "I" frames, which I hear is a decent way to cut HDV.
2) Yes, but only if you have a capture card. Outputting to digibeta will always require a capture card. And you will have to render your HDV footage in an SD sequence...as Digibeta is an SD format.
3) Yes, it can. This is probably the better way to import HDV footage, IMHO. With the use of an HD capture card, you can import HDV in a different HD format which is easier to work with. Lose quality, yes, some quality will be lost, but nothing you'd notice.
4) It supports the DVCPRO HD format, but as of yet there isn't a card reader for the P2 cards designed for the Mac yet. That will be remedied soon. But hey, the camera isn't even OUT yet, so patience man!
5) Yes, there is a difference. They record different flavors of HDV. Sony and Canon record using a long GOP (group of pictures) and JVC uses a short GOP.
If you lean towards the JVC, only shoot 720p30 if you intend on editing with FCP, or get an HD capture card and plenty of high speed storage if you want to capture it in a different HD format.

Native HDV editing

I'd like to know. Do you plan to include this option to iMovie in future (iLife 07 maybe)?
iMovie captures HDV movies and convert them to AIC. I really hate this. Why do you choose this way? I had problems with capturing, with quality, with HDD space.
If I want to get HDV video (not DVD), my movie will be recompressed twice - HDV >> AIC >> HDV. Some of my movies looks like DV after this.
It's really bad. I've always used Mac because it is quick, high quality, stable thing. But now... I never think about I can get back to PC. I don't like PC, but I have to edit my movies on PC right (I use Ulead VideoStudio).
Please fix it. Make native HDV editing option.

Alexey,
I think you're getting quite mixed up about what you see on your computer, or HDTV screen, and the actual quality of HDV..
1 - HDV is very high resolution: it has 4x the resolution of normal DV (Digital Video)
2 - To fit all that extra data (4x standard definition) onto normal DV tapes, the hi-resolution video is not recorded as individual frames of video: a single hi-def frame is recorded, then - as Mike has tried to explain - the next 14 "virtual frames" are simply chunks of data which describe the differences between the original frame, and the subsequent frames. Then, after those 14 "virtual" frames, another full frame is recorded: this process, or picture format, is known as "Long Group-Of-Pictures" and the "complete-frame-and-virtual-ones" method of 'compressing' all that data into a small space is known as MPEG-2.
3 - Because there are 14 "virtual" (actually, non-existent) frames after the initial full frame, this material can't be frame-accurately edited unless the "virtual frames" are rebuilt into actual frames. Apple does this automatically, using the 'Apple Intermediate Codec' used in iMovie: this doesn't compress anything ..but de-compresses, or expands, the original material, and recreates the actual view which was shot by the camera; creating those extra frames from the data contained in the "virtual" frame info. So translating the HDV into AIC doesn't "spoil" anything; it simply rebuilds real frames from the "blueprints" contained in the MPEG-2 recording.
4 - When you see, either on a computer monitor, or on an attached "..1080 LCD TV.." the replay of your 'de-compressed' movie as a .mov within iMovie, you're looking at a downgraded editing version of the actual footage ..just like movie editors working with a rough 'edit' or 'work' print of a 35mm film on their Moviola see a lower grade movie than finally makes it into theatres: they see a print with lots of scratches, inaccurate colour ..just a "rough-and-ready" version. [..Though I have to say that my HDV movies look pretty good on my little Hi-Def monitor in iMovie..]
5 - It's only when you Export back to a tape, in HDV format, your edited movie (..by reconnecting the camcorder to your Mac..) that the full quality is rebuilt back into the same Long-GOP MPEG-2 format in which it was originally shot. Then connect the camcorder to your "..1080 LCD TV.." via component or HDMI connections, and then you should see your movie exactly as sharp as it originally was.
In other words, the appearance you see while editing your movie in iMovie, or any standard-def .mov created from that "work print", may fall short of the actual HDV version which you'll get when you Export your movie back to HDV tape and then view it.
Does that help..?

5.1.4 update breaks HDV capture? Unable to Initialize Capture Device

Problem:
Final Cut Pro cannot capture standard 1080i60 HDV footage from Sony FX1 camcorder. FCP reports "Unable to Initialize Capture Device" when the log and capture window is opened. However, the footage CAN be captured in iMovie (which is interesting, and unacceptable). When HDV>DV downconvert option on camcorder is activated, footage CAN be captured as anamorphic SD, so the camcorder and FW do work.
The problem is occuring on a rock-solid FCP system that I use on a regular basis (mainly for SD editing). It has been approx 2 weeks since I last attempted a HDV capture, the system has been working great with SD footage (still does).
Factors that have changed to my knowledge since HDV capture was last functioning properly:
*Added a new external FW drive into regular usage (a different brand than normally used, no issues with it so far).
*Updated FCP to 5.1.3, and then 5.1.4 when that fix came out. All SD captures and work have been fine so far.
Here's what's interesting...I had a copy of the FCP v5.0.4 .app that I had saved an archive of prior to the crossgrade update. Guess what? I can load it up, and it captures HDV without any problems! With that in mind, this looks like an FCP 5.1.4 issue. But I am at a loss on how to proceed further in troubleshooting. Many thanks in advance for any assistance.
Matt Jeppsen
FresHDV.com
---NOTES---
What I have tried:
*Attempted capture with a different Sony FX1 camcorder.
*Swapped firewire cables and system firewire ports.
*Attempted capture with camera FW chained to an external HDD.
*Unplugged all other external firewire devices from the system.
*Trashed FCP prefs using FCP Rescue 5, created new project using Easy Setup (for HDV).
*Tried different variations of FCP A/V settings, tried all the HDV FW device control presets and the HDV AIC capture preset.
*Per instructions at http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=301852 I removed the numbered Quicktime pckg Receipts and re-installed the latest version (7.13). Post-install/reboot, I repaired Disk Prefs and Verified the disk using Disk Util.
*Have also attempted installing QT 7.13 2 and 3 times in a row, also trying disk prefs repair BEFORE the post-install reboot.
Final Cut Pro Audio/Video Settings:
Sequence Preset: HDV-1080i60
Capture Preset: HDV
Device Control Preset: Sony HDV Firewire
Sony HDR-FX1 IN/OUT REC settings:
*VCR HDV/DV: HDV
*COMPONENT: 1080i/480i
*i.LINK CONV: OFF
*TV TYPE: 16:9
*A/V->DV OUT: OFF
System/Software Facts:
*Final Cut Pro 5.1.4
*Quicktime 7.13
*PPC Mac G5 2.7 Dual (2.5GB RAM)
*35GB free on System, 45GB free on internal FCP Scratch disk
Final Cut Pro 5.1.4, G5 DP 2.7 (PPC) Mac OS X (10.4.8)

I think I figured out this vexing problem. I too was having the same issue. Check to see that your Quicktime is newer than 7.1.2. If it isn't you'll have to upgrade it. I only upgraded to 7.1.6 here because I was afraid of going to a really new version. http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/quicktime716formac.html. After I upgraded my quicktime, I ran software update and the Final Cut Pro 5.1.4 update appeared. I hoipe this helps.

FCP6 Bug? Capturing HDV to OfflineRT HD

I've been trying to capture to OfflineRT HD from a Canon HV10, but instead of the 384x216 clips that we need for use on a PowerBook, the captured clips always end up to be at 1440x1080, consuming far too much disk space!
The manual is slightly vague about this, lacking step-by-step instructions, but on first reading it sounded like a fairly straight-forward task and the user interface seemed to be pretty straightforward for achieving this.
I used:
Sequence Preset: OfflineRT HD (Photo JPEG) -29.97
Capture Preset: HDV
Device Control Preset: HDV FireWire
I tried a great many variations of other settings also, but nothing works!
Has anyone succeeded in doing this?
Am I missing something obvious or is this a bug?
I can recompress the captured clips to OfflineRT HD with the Media Manager (which reduces clip sizes by a factor of 7), but it takes more than 5 hours per hour of footage, resulting in unacceptable turnaround delays.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Nick

Hi Nick
with the settings you currently list, your sequence is OfflineRT HD but you are still capturing full HDV
there is no setting for capturing direct to OfflineRT HD from HDV
the missing preset that you want is not a bug ... the only obvious thing you are missing is that you're attempting to use a feature that doesn't exist!
here's what I would do:
i'd get myself a good external hard disc for my media and capture and edit using the full native HDV ... therby saving myself a world of pain down the road!
ok ... thats clearly not what your after so here's my best suggestion:
set your camera to downconvert the HDV to DV
set the downconvert option to SQUEEZE
use the "OfflineRT Anamorphic" Easy Setup to capture the DV as OfflineRT
*edit*
then use MM to create an offline verision of your cut in the HDV codec and recapture/conform to full quality
hope that helps
Andy

HDV to AIC to HDV - Does it recompress?

Similar Messages

Maybe you are looking for