Native HDV editing

I'd like to know. Do you plan to include this option to iMovie in future (iLife 07 maybe)?
iMovie captures HDV movies and convert them to AIC. I really hate this. Why do you choose this way? I had problems with capturing, with quality, with HDD space.
If I want to get HDV video (not DVD), my movie will be recompressed twice - HDV >> AIC >> HDV. Some of my movies looks like DV after this.
It's really bad. I've always used Mac because it is quick, high quality, stable thing. But now... I never think about I can get back to PC. I don't like PC, but I have to edit my movies on PC right (I use Ulead VideoStudio).
Please fix it. Make native HDV editing option.

Alexey,
I think you're getting quite mixed up about what you see on your computer, or HDTV screen, and the actual quality of HDV..
1 - HDV is very high resolution: it has 4x the resolution of normal DV (Digital Video)
2 - To fit all that extra data (4x standard definition) onto normal DV tapes, the hi-resolution video is not recorded as individual frames of video: a single hi-def frame is recorded, then - as Mike has tried to explain - the next 14 "virtual frames" are simply chunks of data which describe the differences between the original frame, and the subsequent frames. Then, after those 14 "virtual" frames, another full frame is recorded: this process, or picture format, is known as "Long Group-Of-Pictures" and the "complete-frame-and-virtual-ones" method of 'compressing' all that data into a small space is known as MPEG-2.
3 - Because there are 14 "virtual" (actually, non-existent) frames after the initial full frame, this material can't be frame-accurately edited unless the "virtual frames" are rebuilt into actual frames. Apple does this automatically, using the 'Apple Intermediate Codec' used in iMovie: this doesn't compress anything ..but de-compresses, or expands, the original material, and recreates the actual view which was shot by the camera; creating those extra frames from the data contained in the "virtual" frame info. So translating the HDV into AIC doesn't "spoil" anything; it simply rebuilds real frames from the "blueprints" contained in the MPEG-2 recording.
4 - When you see, either on a computer monitor, or on an attached "..1080 LCD TV.." the replay of your 'de-compressed' movie as a .mov within iMovie, you're looking at a downgraded editing version of the actual footage ..just like movie editors working with a rough 'edit' or 'work' print of a 35mm film on their Moviola see a lower grade movie than finally makes it into theatres: they see a print with lots of scratches, inaccurate colour ..just a "rough-and-ready" version. [..Though I have to say that my HDV movies look pretty good on my little Hi-Def monitor in iMovie..]
5 - It's only when you Export back to a tape, in HDV format, your edited movie (..by reconnecting the camcorder to your Mac..) that the full quality is rebuilt back into the same Long-GOP MPEG-2 format in which it was originally shot. Then connect the camcorder to your "..1080 LCD TV.." via component or HDMI connections, and then you should see your movie exactly as sharp as it originally was.
In other words, the appearance you see while editing your movie in iMovie, or any standard-def .mov created from that "work print", may fall short of the actual HDV version which you'll get when you Export your movie back to HDV tape and then view it.
Does that help..?

Similar Messages

Is there any 3rd party plugin that turn on native HDV editing feature?

Hello,
I love iMovie, but I'd really like to see native HDV editing feature. I guess Apple will never do this, so maybe there is some 3rd party plugin for iMovie that will allow to edit HDV without recompression?

HDV is mp2-encoded material on miniDV cassette.. the 'nature' of mpeg2 doesn't allow a frame-precise editing (only GOP precision, as used in mpeg editors as Streamclip of ProjectX); if you do any editing (adding disolve, titles, effect) you have to encode/'recompress' .. - the 'AppleIntermediate Codec' iMovie uses to make such imports editable is a lossless codec.. so, what should add a 'native HDV' editing...?

Native hdv editing on macbook pro 2,33GHz and 2GB RAM

Hi,
I intend to start editing native hdv on my portable mac. It has a 15,4" monitor, ati mobility radeon X1600 256MB graphics card, 160GB 5400rpm hard disk and a FW800 port. The output will either be hdv to tape or DVD. Can you tell me if it will be a stable configuration?
What about the preview on my monitor - will it be hdv 1440 x 900 resolution? What will be the impact on the color correction process? And about the disk - is 5400 rpm enough or should I try to change it to 100GB 7200rpm or maybe store it all on a FW ext disk? Is it true that if you capture to your hard disk and then transfer it to a FW ext disk the chances of having dropped frames are much less?
I'm just upgrading now to HDV filming and editing so I have all these basic questions and doubts. I hope you understand and help me out. Thanks.
MacBook Pro 2,33GHz Mac OS X (10.4.7) 2GB RAM

It's not good to use your internal drive to run OS X and import footage. Here is some information from Final Cut Pro's manual.
If you need to fit a lot of media files on a relatively small hard disk, such as a
PowerBook (or Macbook Pro) hard disk, you can recompress all your media files. This is the phase of the offline/online workflow when you create the low-resolution, offline quality media files for rough editing.
Format______________________ Format Typical data rate
OfflineRT (using Photo JPEG)__ Varies between 300-500 KB/sec.
DV (25)_______________________3.6 MB/sec.
HDV (1080i)__________________3.6 MB/sec.
Your internal drive should be fine for OfflineRT editing as the format uses much less data rate, so your drive can run the OS and Final Cut Pro at the same time.
The manual tells you how to use the OfflineRT format. It's quite cool!
Mac OS X (10.4.8)
Mac OS X (10.4.8)

Native HDV versus Cineform editing - noticeable quality losses?

Hi folks.
Is it me or Premiere CS3 feels more happy editing native HDV versus Cineform? With HDV it just renders A LOT faster and the program seems to run better (less stutter). The only downside is that it takes forever to load the project (versus Cineform) and the mastering output choices are smaller.
I really like Cineform, but in my computer it just asks too much patience(Win XP SP3 + P4 775 3.06 + 1024 RAM).
Editing in HDV, the quality is really that sacrified???? My editing routine consists of dissolves, magic bullet looks and classic effects.
What is your opinion? Thank you guys :)

Thank you Steven.
Cineform does not render only if you use their effects. But if you need Magic Bullet Looks or GenArts Sapphire the story changes. I did some little test:
HD clip 1920x1080 50i of 4:10 seconds with "Basic White Diffusion" Magic Bullet effect takes to render:
01:30 minutes in CFHD
00:50 seconds in HDV
Can I export my HDV project to Cineform in order to preserve quality? What other options do I have?

Why don't iMovie support native HDV capture and editing?

i would like to see iMovie HD 6 to support native HDV capture and edit. is it possible?

no, FCE-HD (what an abreviation!) uses the same trick as iM-HD, converting HiDef into AIC....
native HD is really more for the pros... yet! I think, the basic problem to be solved first is -r media, meaning, any HD/blue-ray-DVD-r disks, which make it possible for the average user to store his/her products.... but as far as I follow the discussion, right now the industry is caring more for commercial disks, and that HDMI "problem" (broadcasting can include a copyprotection, so no use of any HD/DVD HiDef recorders...!)... finally, we can record only our selfmade movies... maybe that's a little less joy...
actually, converting finished HDmovies into h264 with a high bitrate and storing that onto hd is the only realistic option........

Native HDV Jittery Images in Self Contained Movies

Hello,
I am having problems with HDV footage captured in native HDV 1080i60
When we output footage as Quicktime Self-Contained Movies the result is very JITTERY images.
Whereas when we print to video directly from the timeline, there is no such jittery effect.
We are thinking that it may be a conform problem with the keyframes in self-contained movies.
Any idea why this is occurring?
Thanks,
Marc Griffin

I'm having a very similar problem. Here's what I did.
1.) Edit my awesome HDV shot and HDV edited project.
2.) Export as a self-contained movie to transfer to another workstation for printing to video
3.) On other system open self-contained video in FCP and "print to video."
The process completed successfully, but when played back from tape, the footage is jittery. The self contained movie itself plays back fine in quicktime. I was wondering if it has to do with the compression of frames and what fcp does in the conforming process. Would ticking the checkbox "recompress all frames" fix this problem? I have not yet tried that as everything requires rendering. And even on a G5 quad it takes 25+ minutes to render / conform the video.
Thanks,
Kjell

Hdv editing setup

By mistake a posthouse owner bought a AJA interface with Break Out box and a HDV deck (HVR-M15U) which has only firewire control, no RSS-42 control. Now the Aja cannot be connected to deck then how will we capture HDV etc....? He has a QUAD machine and SATA hard drives.
What is the system paths for HDV editing?
thanks for your replies
really in need of your help.

Do you have a Kona Break Out Box and no card?
HDV is not a good format to edit natively because it has such a convoluted codec in general. I haven't had to work with it much, but from what I understand, there is A LOT of rendering involved and the bitrate is unusually high.
What most recommend is converting it to DVCPROHD. If you have a Kona card and a SDI deck, you can bring it in as DVCPROHD on the fly. Otherwise, you can capture it as HDV, then use Media Manager to re-compress the files to DVCPROHD. Edit as DVCPROHD and then output at whatever your delivery is.

Does HDV editing WORK????

OK i've had a few suggestions and applied them, but the video plays lousy and choppy.
In a final question, can we edit in native HDV, yes or no.
And if so what are the limitations.
Thanks
Vic

Not in Final Cut Express.

Video Flicker & Creation of SD DVD (16:9) from a HDV edit...

Hi Everyone,
We have just completed a project on HDV.
Shot on HDV using Sony FX1E
HDV Edit using FCP HD
Video Card is Declink HD Extreme.
Problem 1:
Flicker while we render video:
When we render the timeline, the rendered output some times has a flicker that appears. It happens to everything, video, background animation done using motion anything you name. Then if we re-render the same, it goes off next time itself or sometime later. Not quite sure when and why ? We have to check to ensure no flickering is there before we step into the next stage.
The only problem that i could think of is. We have only 1 harddisk in the system. So the OS is in the same drive in which the project is also getting executed.
Problem 2:
Creation of SD DVD (16:9) after finishing HDV edit.
Compressor, the **** product is a royal waste or is that we do not know how to use it. or should we be using something else to make a SD DVD from a HDV edit.
We completed the project by taking a Uncompressed movie output and taking it into another Matrox sytem and created a SD DVD using Adobe Encore DVD. So the job got over, but what is the way to do the same in FCP & DVD Studio PRO.
Making a HD DVD is perfect, we tried that and it worked well.
We look forward to the comments from all you experts.
Thanks in advance.
S.Venkatesh
Power MAC G5 Mac OS X (10.4) Decklink HD Extreme - Video Card

One of the interesting and clever things about OSX is that data is not necessarily written to disk when you think it is - it first goes into a buffer and the buffer is written to disk at times of the OS's choosing. This allows the OS to handle multiple tasks etc. 'at the same time' - it stores things up and then milliseconds or perhaps seconds later writes them to disk. Remember that this includes all processes - and when OSX is running there might easily be literally hundreds of separate little OS-level programs running, all needing to do this or that with files on disk, not just the programmes you think you have running, like FCP or Safari.
The net result of this is that you have no control over when the disk is needed by the OS - and although this isn't a problem normally if you're using Safari or Word or something, when you are handling streaming media like video, it can be a very big problem. If you are playing a piece of video (which must maintain a constant data rate) and the system absolutely HAS to do something to or from disk, your video playback can take a hit, skipping a few frames. If this happened on a long playout to client it would be uncomfortable, but if it happened on your delivery master it could be horrendous.
If you keep your media on a separate disk, the problem disappears, as OSX can do whatever it needs without interrupting the flow of video off the other drive.
So don't so it, it's just waiting to bite you in the a55.

Seeking advice on moving up to HDV editing

I appreciate folks on this forum who have assisted me in the past when I’ve had questions about iMovie, editing, burning DVDs etc. Karsten, Lennart, Bengt and others from around the world have been very kind and helpful. I am now seeking advice from anyone regarding “moving up” to the HDV world of video editing.
I recently "retired" my 2003 iMac G4 800 MHz flat screen and replaced it with an iMac 2.8 GHz Intel core 2 duo with a 320 GB hardrive and 4 GB of upgraded RAM. I have a 250 GB external drive as well. I also replaced my old Sony TRV-30 digital camcorder (a great old workhorse which is still going strong after 8 years) with a Canon Vixia HV40 that has high definition recording capability (uses mini DV tape).
I had been using iMovie HD 06 to edit my video projects along with iDVD and Toast 6 to burn them to DVD. I would like to start shooting HDV video with the new Canon, edit and burn the projects to Blu Ray high definition discs. MCE Technologies (among others, I believe) offer both internal and external Blu Ray burners. I don’t believe that the internal Blu Ray burner would work in my new iMac, but I may be wrong on that. (Does anyone know the answer?)
I believe that the MCE external Blu Ray burner would work with my equipment if attached to one of the Firewire ports or possibly through one of the USB 2 ports. (there is both a 400 and 800 Firewire port on this iMac model.) I was planning to acquire Final Cut Express as the editing program with Toast 10 Pro (plus the Blu Ray plug in) to burn the edited projects.
Will this work? Is there anything I should know before I plunge “headlong” into HDV editing? Any advice would be most welcome. Thanks in advance.
Message was edited by: scooper

scooper wrote:
.. iMac 2.8 GHz Intel core 2 duo with a 320 GB hardrive and 4 GB of upgraded RAM. I have a 250 GB external drive .. Canon Vixia HV40 .. external Blu Ray burner .. Final Cut Express .. Toast 10 Pro (plus the Blu Ray plug in)
Will this work?
I'm jealous.. wow! MY set-up..
HDV is supported by IMHD6.. just to mention that. so, HDV-editing is same as SD..
iMHD6 Export 'FullQuality' creates a file, which is HiDef too, for your Toast/BR workflow ..
HDV creates on import (IMHD6/FCE) huuuuuge files, 40-60GBs/h .. 250 extHDD = 6h, full..
actual price for extHDD with 1TB <100€ ..
keep in mind: internal harddrive has to offer any time 10-20GBs free..
not every BR-standalone-player accepts homebrewn disks..don't be disappointed...
Toast and iDVD can burn DVDs (=which offer SD only) from HiDef projects.. no need to 'convert'.. both apps downsize automatically...
FCE has a (very) steem learning curve.. totally different to iMovie.. no one-click-only, no templates, no ready-mades.. but zillions of options, 101% control.. (simple example: ken burns with zoom-to-zil and rotation and moving out of frame...)
buy a book of FC Mastermind and AppleDiscussions-Level5 supporter *Tom Wolsky* - he's a sensei, in-depth-knowledge, hands-on (=no tech blabla), easy to read and understand.
don't start with a project, start with 'tests for the trashbin'..

Is native AVCHD editing finally working in FCP6?

I read somewhere that FCP 6.06 will finally work natively with AVDHD. I've been itching to get a Panasonic AVCHD HMC150 but don't want the hassle of transcoding to giant ProRes files, but rather work with native files.
Anybody had success with this combo?

What is the problem with using ProRes (apart from size of files)? It is an awesome codec. On my humble Mac Pro I can play back 3 streams with a couple of filters applied to clips and transitions in rt.
I have tried native avchd editing in Vegas - got about 3 streams to work, but frame rate only stays full frame at preview (half). Edius playback of avchd is nil for me - although converting to canopus HQ gives similar results to FCP. FCP's log and transfer is also a very elegant way of transferring and transcoding clips on the fly. Also, read the adobe forums for posts on avchd - very variable responses with many reporting lots of crashes!
For me, the bigger issue with FCS2 is the lack of a HD distribution format, ie bluray!

Native HDV

Hi,
I see there are a number of experts on this forum and if could get an answer on this it would be much appreciated. I want to make sure my settings are capturing my footage at the greatest possible resolution. I have read several posts from Andy mentioning Native HDV as the way to go for best quality and I think what I'm doing is just that but I'm not sure.
The source is 1080i50 HDV shot on the sony Z1U camera. I am capturing the footage to the FCP via firewire and a Sony HVR-M15U deck.
My audio/video settings are as follows:
Sequence preset hdv-1080i50
Capture preset hdv
Device control preset Sony HDV 1080i50 Firewire
Video Playback-None
Audio Playback-Default
Again, any help would be appreciated.
Dave

Jerry,
Thanks for your help. I read your article in creative cow and learned a lot. If you see this, I have another question. I need to use the above mentioned material in a project where most of the material is as follows:
Vid Rate 23.98
Frane size 1280 x 720
Compressor HDV 720p24
My eventual delivery requirement is a 1080i 29.97 tape.
Do you have any suggestions for converting the material? Some people have told me Compressor isn't good enough but After Effects might work. I'm still investigating.
Thanks again
Dave

RAM...KIT or DIMM for HDV Editing?

I need to add some more RAM to my Power Mac G5 Quad (pre-Intel), should I get KIT or DIMM (I don't know the difference), what works best for HDV Editing in FCP?
Also, any brand or vendor suggestions?
Many thanks. : )

Crucial.com. Other than that, I don't know, because I always buy direct from a distributor or the manufacturer at reseller pricing.
BTW, when I referred to 'matched DIMMs', I was referring to DIMMs with consecutive serial numbers, as Kingston used to do it. Don't know if they still do that, but 'matched' means, or used to mean, more than just the same size. FWIW.

HDV Editing workflow

About to start cutting a short shot in HDV on the Sony Z1 at 1080i. Will be capturing with a rented M10U over one weekend. Originally I was thinking of using the HDV native codec and Easy Setup and experiment with that workflow. But I have heard so many horror stories about i- and p-frame issues and dirty looking fades/dissolves that I would like to get more info regarding the use of other codecs before proceeding with HDV native.
For instance, has anyone tried HDV native but ended up going back to the Apple Intermediate Codec for better workflow? What are the requirements and pitfalls of working in DVCPro HD beyond drive space - what kind of conversion issues are involved to get to cutting with a DVCPHD Sequence?
Please bear in mind I do not have Decklink, the new Matrox box, HDVxDV or any of the more affordable software/hardware facilitators to do this very modestly budgeted project. All suggestions appreciated. Thanks.
17" 1 Gig Powerbook Mac OS X (10.4.6) FCP Studio Universal

Larry Jordan wrote an interesting summary of the state of HDV recently, you can read it here: http://larryjordan.biz/articles/ljhdvlearn.html
Larry is quite damning of the format and suggests that you must use a hardware card and transcode to DVCProHD or other format, and not edit in HDV, however you should read through the comments posted at the end of the article, particularly those made by Graeme Natress, who makes a very good case for editing natively.

Using and LCD TV as a monitor for HDV editing

I'm editing in FCP studio 2 and shooting with the new Sony HVR-S270u cameras. I'm trying to figure out the best way to use my LCD TV as a monitor for HD. I know FCP will not playback through my camera in HDV but print to tape with it. I looked into the Blackmagic Design Intensity Pro with HDMI. The problem is the camera doesn't have HDMI it SDI outputs so I'm capturing through firewire. I've been told that the Blackmagic card requires you to capture with it in order to playback with it. I know there is Matrox MXO but are there other options out there.
Can I use the LCD TV as a second monitor and do playback as Cinema Desktop Preview to second monitor? I've also seen a DVI - HDMI cable. Will that work? Any help would be great!
Thanks,
Mike

What format is the media in when you capture it?
Whatever you choose to capture it. You can capture it as HDV via firewire, or ProRes via firewire. Or you can use this card and choose one of the options it gives you...such as ProRes, DVCPRO HD, uncompressed HD...whatever you want, and your hardware can support.
I'm assuming it's no longer HDV.
Only if you don't capture it as HDV. You can still do that and then output via this card to some other format. Or you can capture as HDV, render to ProRes (in the sequence settings under RENDER CONTROL).
Is it uncompressed HD?
If you choose that.
Is there an Easy Setup for this?
Yup.
What codec does it use?
Whatever it lists in the Easy Setups...the ones I listed above.
They also state that you can use it for DV. I'm guessing that means if you have DV material and a device that outputs HDMI you have uncompressed SD?
First off, HDMI is an HD signal, not SD. BUT, you can use the card to output your DV timeline to your HDTV. You cannot output to an SD deck, as no SD decks have HDMI.
If you can import HDV via HDMI and you bypass the HDV codec and get full 1920 (as they say on their website)
Yup..you can capture as ProRes or Uncompressed, and get full 1080. BUT, this doesn't increase the resolution of your footage. It just means that it will render to a better codec with more color space...better manipulation of the image that HDV.
then I'm also guessing that you cannot go back to HDV.
Not via firewire. But if the deck had Component inputs, or HDMI...maybe.
Shane

Native HDV editing

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