HDV to ProRes 422?

I've got a 90 minute movie to cut. 2/3'rds of the original material was shot with a Sony HDV camera 60i. The other third is XDCam (HQ), also 60i.
I'm trying to figure out a protocol.
The film is aimed at some kind of theatrical distribution, festivals for sure, possibly a network airing. (It's an engaging subject, and very nicely shot, despite the older format).
Anybody done this? And might you have some recommendations?
Do I 'optimize' on my import? I notice FCPX optimizes the HDV to ProRes 422 (not HQ), but at 60i. Is there a way to set a different optimization?
Should I bother with a proxy when the original was only HDV (now being optimized to ProRes on import)? The system I have at hand here seems to be fairly robust.
Or. Should I edit the HDV original? And then just output in whatever codec seems appropriate (when I've done some more research)?
Any suggestions would be most appreciated.
Ben

Thank you guys, very helpful.
And Tom, this is all footage that was captured in FCP7, mostly a long while back, except for the XDCam. So the HDV was captured from the Sony camera, and the XDCam was the EX3, so straight from the cards (using FCP's capture transfer setup).
Now I'm playing at switching the whole project over to FCPX. Mainly because FCPX looks so intriguing. And. I had to do an emergency colour grading of an IMAX movie last week, for a test screenig ... working on their HD proxy cut. I was going to do it in Colour, but I haven't used Colour in six months, and it's a daunting creature to get back into after long breaks. I've been toying with FCPX for a couple of weeks, just a few minutes here and there, and tried the colour grading setup. Wow. In ten minutes I was up to speed. We did an XML of their film (being cut in FCP7). An hour later it was in FCPX. And a few hours later I had a really really nice grade. It blew me away. Yesterday we did the 'real' grade in a relatively high-end studio. Very good people. Brand new hardware - with lots of nifty buttons and tools. But I swear the end result doesn't look any different than what we got from FCPX. In fact. I'm toying with the idea of actually pulling the 4K into FCPX, and outputting it with MY original grade - just to make a comparison. Now wouldn't that be intriguing. And horrible, ultimately, for studios with such a huge capital outlay. Then again. It ain't the equipment. The colourist was a total pleasure to work with, knew his stuff.
Thank you very much for your help guys.
Actually, there is still a question in my head. I'm used to working in 24p. This film is for theatres, festivals, even a network airing perhaps. Is a 30 fps master going to work in those venues? I seem to remember that the new digital projectors don't care what the frame rate is. Have I got that wrong? And does it matter whether my master is interlaced or progressive? I hate the interlaced look - but I'm not sure what this footage is going to look like de-interlaced.
And. I'm going to do a lot of colour correcting on this show, and some modes special effects (possibly do those in Motion), but in a 'realist' sort of way; no green screen. Just trying to make the whole look more cinematic. But I'm not attached to the 24 fps thing. Though 30 fps this stuff was SHOT like a film, it already looks cinematic. But I'd love to somehow ameliorate the inevitable 'video' look of the medium.

Similar Messages

Capturing in the HDV-Apple ProRes 422 Preset

I am trying to capture some HDV footage in Final Cut 7 using the HDV-Apple ProRes 422 preset. However, when I go to log and capture after changing the audio/visual settings, the program immediately asks me to enter a file name and then jumps right into a capture now rather than bringing up the usual log and capture screen.
Has anyone else run into this problem, and if so, have any solutions to fixing it? This is the first time I have used this capture preset, so there may be a step or setting I am accidently skipping.
Thanks in advance.

If you are capturing HDV as ProRes, this is normal. This is the only case that this happens like this. Only with a capture card can you get the normal Log and Capture window. Converting one format to another via firewire...typically requires a card. This is a special case.
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/poisson_chris/hdv-prores.php
Shane

Capturing HDV Into ProRes 422 (LT) Via FireWire

I read this fine tutorial on Moviola on the technique of Capturing HDV Into ProRes Via FireWire.
http://moviola.com/hdv_prores
Since you can choose ProRes 422 (LT) as an option in the Log and Transfer window, I was wondering if there is a way to capture HDV to ProRes 422 (LT) via firewire like in the above mentioned article.
I tried creating a custom capture setting in the AV Settings, but ProRes 422 (LT) was not available as an option, only ProRes 422 and ProRes 422 (HQ). And those settings cannot be edited or duplicated (grayed out).
I don’t know why ProRes 422 (LT) is available in the Log and Transfer window but not in the AV Settings window. Maybe it will become available in an update.
In the meantime, does anyone know a way to get around this? Maybe modifying an FCP file somewhere?
Thanks,
======
Richard

HDV is recorded to tape inside of the camera as digital information. Component coming out of the camera is analog. The camera is performing the first conversion D/A, from HDV (digital) to component out (analog).
Component going into the ioHD is analog. The ioHD then converts via its hardware to Prores (any flavor), which is digital. The ioHD has to convert the analog from the component outs of my camera to digital for use in FCP. FCP only uses digital video.
You said "The IOHD internally converts to ProRes.." converts to ProRes is the second A/D conversion.
So the path is D/A/D. I count that as two conversions, camera D/A as one the ioHD A/D as two.
I don't want to unnecessarily convert from digital to analog to digital which is why I don't use the ioHD to convert from HDV to Prores (any flavor).
Unfortunately I don't have any digital outs for this camera, neither HDMI or HD SDI.
I believe capturing and converting HDV to ProRes via firewire in FCP doesn't have this D/A/D conversion which is why I'd like to be able to capture HDV to ProRes LT via firewire in FCP and stay digital all the way, with no analog conversions.
I use the ioHD for all of my analog to digital conversions. It's a great box from a great company.
Thanks,
=====
Richard

Black frames in QT after converting from HDV to ProRes 422

I've been making a movie, shot in HDV 25p. In the timeline, everything plays fine, but when converted to ProRes422 via 'export to Quicktime Movie', I get black (dropped?) frames every now and then, on an irregular basis. Can be every 40 frames or every 90, but they're all over the movie. Worse still: the last 10 seconds of the movie are 'lost' in the QT-version, it comes to a freeze frame while the sound runs on.
When I make the QT movie with a different setting (HDV-25p instead of ProRes422), the end is allright, but I still keep getting the black frames. Of course these black frames are visible in the movie, it looks like the movement stutters.
Also tried QT with AIC codec, but to no avail.
I never experienced this before, although I used this workflow several times.
I need to make a Bluray disk via Toast. Any suggestions of how to get rid of the black frames?

Concertpix wrote:
...Now render before exporting to QT, I suppose?
You don't really have to. Exporting is kinda the same as rendering. Only thing is that if you do not render before export, FCP does not 'remember' this rendering.
If you think you'll needs parts of the render files later, you might render first.
Others in this forum do deliberately throw away the renders before they export, in order to avoid artifacts. Personally I prefer to see rendered footage before I export. I can see what I am sending to the export-application then. Haven't have any trouble so far.
So. It's up to you.
Rienk

Export HDV rendered as ProRes 422?

I've searched the forum and can't find this topic specifically addressed, so here goes a new question.
Sequence is HDV (1080i60) which is set to render ProRes 422 (there's a reason for that, below as a note).
It's quite a long sequence (an hour and 20 minutes) with almost everything color corrected (just the FCP color corrector). So when I finally rendered "all", it took its own sweet time basically rendering everything. I checked the render files, and sure enough, they are ProRes 422, 1440x1080i as expected.
When I go to export, if I use "current setting" (not self contained) it writes everything again as an HDV file (kind of expect that) and doesn't use any of those costly (time and space) reference files; if I specify ProRes 422 like the render files (not self contained), is dutifully writes new files as well.
Is there any way to export this as a "reference" movie and have it use the render files it's already spent a bunch of time making? Either export takes about as much time to do as that rendering did originally on my G5 2.5 Quad: about 4 hours or more. Not to mention doubling the disk space requirement.
Note: the reason I used ProRes 422 rendering was that if I render in HDV (what I usually do), there are severe quality problems with parts of the movie; it seems that keyframed scaling and cropping cause a problem with HDV when it renders. INterestingly, the preview is fine, and ProRes 422 rendering is fine. and when I say quality problems, I mean extreme blockiness: like 16x16 blocks: it's awful and I think it is a bug (which I asked about here some time ago and go zero answers).
Eddie O
Message was edited by: Edward A. Oates
Message was edited by: Edward A. Oates

Everything that has already been rendered (prores 422) wants to get rendered again. I haven't determined what happens if I go ahead and let that render take place and then export from the ProRes 422 time line since the render takes a long time. Remember that the only reason that I need to do all of this is because if I render in the HDV time line using the sequence codec, I get problems that are there even if Quicktime opens the HDV render files. It's kind of a serious bug in FCP 6.0.2 which has not been addressed (I have sent it in as "feedback" some time ago).
I edit in HDV because it is fast enough for me and I don't "conform" (that is, render) until the end when I about 95% sure I'm done. So I use only 13GB/hour instead of about 50GB/hour. There are only a couple of places where I need > 1 stream (transitions between camera shots, a very few picture in picture effects).
I guess maybe the work flow for me (given my preference to save disk space for now) will be to edit in HDV until I get what I want, and then instead of "conforming," copy the sequence to a ProRes 422 time line and let that render. Hopefully, if I export that as a "reference" movie, it will use the render files as the reference files.
Thanks,
Eddie O
Message was edited by: Edward A. Oates

Aren't FCPX and Compressor supposed to be able to export Apple ProRes 422 LT? I just bought FCPX and Compressor and there seems to be no way to transcode HDV clips to Apple ProRes422 LT. Before buying I read LACUG tutorial by R Taylor that says it can.

Aren't FCPX and Compressor supposed to be able to export Apple ProRes 422 LT? I just bought FCPX and Compressor and there seems to be no way to transcode HDV clips to Apple ProRes422 LT. Before buying these I read an LACUG tutorial by R Taylor that says it can.

Tom is right. Codecs are shared software system-wide ("Core Video"). If you cannot find the option with any software (such as MPEG Streamclip), you won't find it in Compressor or FCPX either. The Quicktime ProRes codecs is part of the FCP menu > "Download Additional Content" you need to make after install FCPX (or Compressor.) These "pro video" codecs are part of all "ProApp" licenses for video related software from Apple (QT7Pro, Motion, Compressor, Final Cut, etc....) [you can also download them here: http://support.apple.com/kb/dl1396]
Most articles/tutorials you read by "long time" users are apt to assume the reader has been working with pro-video on Macs since the days of disk installs (like they have). In those days, the installation of those codecs wasn't even really an option (well, it was if you did a custom install - but who *didn't* install all available codecs??), it was automatically installed with the main software. Since the "App Store" venue... things have changed somewhat.

HDV Sequence vs. Apple ProRes 422 Sequence

Is there a disadvantage to capturing and editing HDV, then creating a ProRes 422 output instead of capturing and editing ProRes 422 from the start? Will there be loss incurred or some other undesirable effect in the workflow in the former over the latter?
Thanks
Larry

Hi Ian
With FCP Apple introduced a new capability for native HDV and XDCAM HD timeline editing, that being the ability to specify the render codec as ProRes ... which means that renders do not need to be "conformed" to the native GOP structure (so much much faster) and better still, they get the expanded chroma resolution offered by ProRes (ie 10 bit 422 over HDV's 8 bit 420). With this ability the average user can enjoy all the benefits of a high quality intraframe codec for effects/renders and at the same time all the benefits of low bit rate iterframe codec for mass storage. Best of both worlds.
You set the render codec in the Sequence Settings >> Render Control tab
You'll love it.
Best
Andy

HDV exported as ProRes 422 produces 4:3 in iDVD?

AVCHD exported from FCP X as ProRes 422 works perfectly in iDVD producing a 16:9 DVD.
HDV doesn't, even though QT Player plays it perfectly.
The odd thing is that 4 years ago, using legacy FCP my exported HDV videos had no problems being recognised as 16:9 by iDVD.
So why are FCP X produced HDV videos not recognised as 16:9?
P.S. I know that iDVD never recognised DV in the 16:9 format but it always worked with HDV.
Incidentally, the old trick of opening it in QT Pro and changing the frame size to 1024 x 576 does not work!

The AVCHD was actually 50p footage in a 25p project exported as ProRes via Share>Export Media.
Worked perfectly in iDVD.
The HDV was standard 1440 x 1080 treated just the same and came out as 4:3 in iDVD which I suppose is what it is when the pixels are square.
I have found a workaround/solution.
Make a ProRes 422 custom preset in Compressor specifying a frame size of 1920 x 1080.
Works perfectly and iDVD sees it correctly as 16:9.
Only downside is that converting using the custom preset takes at least twice as long.
Regarding the weird moire pattern when using FCP 7, I have just exported the clips as ProRes 422 1920 x 1080 and they appear normal.
The moire pattern appeared when I exported the clips as native HDV, something I always did years go with no problems.
So I have found workarounds but not solutions.

Can't make a workable custom codec with ProRes 422 (HQ)

I've only just now found that there is a Support Community for Compressor. Wish I'd known sooner.
I see my version of Compressor is 3.5.3.
I've been on a little saga.
I started out with the challenge of converting some MP4 files from a Blackberry Playbook into ProRes 422 (HQ) for editing in Final Cut. I used Compressor and the task looked fairly straight forward. I used the ProRes setting in the Compressor, converted my files and imported them into Final Cut. Video was fine but I soon found out that the audio needed rendering every time I put a clip into the Timeline. I went on-line to various chat rooms with this problem. Pretty soon a fellow was telling me that the ProRes 422 (HQ) setting in Compressor had "Audio Pass-through" as default and that this was the cause of my problem. Change it, he said, to "Linear PCM".
It took me a fair while to figure out that the ProRes setting in Compressor did not allow itself to be modified and that I'd have to create a custom preset if I was to make these changes. I set about to do that. I was able to select "QuickTime Movie" and then in "Video/Settings" choose "ProRes 422 (HQ)", in "Audio", "Linear PCM". This did solve the audio problem. Now files imported into Final Cut did not need rendering. But another problem became evident.
Whereas the ProRes 422 setting that came with Compressor in its summary page listed: "Width" and "Height" as "(100% of source)", the custom ProRes 422 (HQ) setting I'd just created has "Width" and "Height" as "320" and "240". In short the 19:9 aspect ratio of the original footage was lost. What I got both in the conversion and in Final Cut was a squished SD image.
I've played like heck with Compressor trying to see if there was some place I could get this custom version of ProRes to correspond to the aspect ratio seen in the Audio Pass-through version that came loaded in Compressor. No luck. All very mysterious.
My next step was to look to create another custom codec that would have the proper 1280 X 720 ratio. Turns out "HDV 720p 30fps" does, so now I've been converting to that. Looks fine in Final Cut - proper picture and sound.
I've been playing around a bit more and see now that I can create a custom setting using "Apple Intermediate Codec". I've tried it and it works too.
So after all this, my question: Should I be using that codec instead? Or does it really matter what codec I use for editing? Is the only real issue what codec I decide to use to output?
And while I'm at it: Does anybody have ideas why trying to create a custom setting with ProRes 422 (HQ) does not work - for my purposes at least.
I must admit this converting codecs is pretty new to me. Hopefully with time this experience will get easier and clearer.
John

Setting a Compressor ProRes Custom Setting:
1) Pick Apple ProRes 422...
2) Drag the PreRes 422 setting to the Bach Window. You can only make a custom setting from the Batch Window...
3) Select enable for the audio. Click on setting to make sure it is set right. Uncheck Allow Job Segmenting... Make sure Streaming is set to none*....
4) Select the Geomenty tab... Pick Custom (16:9):
5) Click Save As and name your custom setting...
6) You new custom setting will show up in the Custum folder for later use:
Another thing you can do is make Droplet of this custom setting. Menu... File... Create Droplet... Save the Droplet into a folder somewhere on your computer.
A Droplet will start the transcoding automatically. Drag the Droplet onto a video icon and let it do it's job.
* ProRes doesn't need the Fast Start setting. If this is set it will take almost twice as long to do the encoding. Same with Allow Job Segmenting using Qmaster.
I did the above on the fly and hope everything is clear for you to understand.

Why doesn't iMovie use ProRes 422 or native instead of AIC

Does anybody know why apple still uses AIC to transcode all captured video streams instead of ProRes 422? And why does it transcode in the first place? Why can't they use the native HDV or AVCHD streams?
I know that using native HDV, and especially AVCHD, loads the processor with all the decoding, but it should at least be an option for high-end machines. HDV editing on FCP works fine and the storage requirements go down to between 1/3 and 1/8 of what it is with AIC and ProRes.
I think the ideal workflow would be to capture in the native format, edit in the native format when no re-compression is necessary and only render to ProRes when effects/titles/filters are applied.
Is it just too much development work or is there an architectural consideration from the development group to force everything through AIC for some reason?
Is it a licensing issue? Does Apple pay royalties for ProRes for every FCP sale? Would it be prohibitively expensive to distribute ProRes with iLife?
Obviously only someone from the iMovie group would be able to answer all of these questions but we may be able to gather some insights from the community to get a better picture.

I understand that the iMovie and FCP teams at Apple have been, hitherto, completely independent.
FCP was bought in - under a different original name - and tweaked from its original incarnation before being offered as 'Final Cut Pro' by Apple. See the section marked "History" in this Wikipedia article.
iMovie, however, was written long ago to Steve Jobs' specifications by Glenn Reid as a simple video editor for amateurs.
The ProRes codec appears to have been created separately from the Apple Intermediate Codec of iMovie ..probably because of different programmers' responsibilities for the separate programs ..although, under the 'Terms of Use', we're not supposed to speculate here in Apple Discussions.
HDV and AVCHD, being extremely 'compressed' methods of storing video, similar to the MPEG-2 format used for squeezing long movies onto small DVDs, cannot be edited 'frame-accurately' directly, as most of the video frames rely on data stored in other frames for their content. In other words, the 1st frame of fifteen frames contains a whole frame's worth of data, but the next 14 contain only differences between the first frame of a group and the subsequent frames.
So there needs to be a method to 'unscramble' or extract the data from the next few frames after the first of each group, in order to reconstitute the rest of the frames for editing them.
AIC is the method used in iMovie. ProRes is the method chosen for FCP.
It's interesting, though, that Randy Ubillos, now 'Chief Architect - Video Applications' at Apple, and the "onlie true begetter" of what later became Final Cut Pro, was the man who demonstrated iMovie '09 at last month's MacWorld Keynote. So if Randy's on hand to explain how to use iMovie, and created the new-style iMovie, then maybe we'll see some more convergence occur. (..iMovie has already taken on board FCP's "instant rendering", so that we no longer have to wait for transitions to be rendered within iMovie, but can see the results immediately. iMovie's real "behind the scenes" rendering now takes place during export, after after editing's finished..)

Any advantage in working in ProRes 422 start to finish

Since it's possible to capture ProRes 422 via firewire now is there any advantage to working with it from start to finish? The workflow now has been capture and work in HDV and render to a ProRes Timeline when finished.
I'd Like to hear some opinions on this subject. I know ProRess captured files are much larger than HDV captures so that's a consideration.
Also Does ProRes run any smoother in FCP2 than HDV?

I'm sure there are others, but two things come to mind right away:
Since ProRes422 is 10-bit, it makes working in Color much more liberating.
As best I can tell, rendering in in FCP is much quicker (even at the highest quality settings) with ProRes422 on a Mac Pro since it's a much more multi-thread friendly codec than HDV.

Browser showing Compressor as Apple ProRes 422.

I am working with HD clips from a Canon using AVCHD codec so I am wondering why my Browser, Compressor column shows Apple ProRes 422. Keep trying to find something in the manual or online video tutorial but no luck. Does this have something to do with how the Setup was handled and should some settings be changed?

I wish I could answer your question but I sort of don't understand it. When I open my Log and Transfer window there is no option I can find to select preferences on Transferring. I don't see anything like this in my User Preferences, System Settings, Easy Setup, (this is the only place I can find the Apple ProRes 422 codec) Audio/Video Settings window - Sequence Presets and Capture Presets.
Could it be I had selected the ProRes 422 in Capture Presets at one time because in the Summary window of Capture Presets states "Use this preset to capture from an HDV device and transcode to Apple ProRes 422." and FCP remembers this every time it deals with this HD information?
Thank you very much for your help. I have been using FCP ever since V1 came out but even with a three day class and video tutorials I get really lost sometimes.

"Cloudy" Footage when Exporting ProRes 422 Timeline

Hello everyone,
I'm having a problem when exporting a "QuickTime Movie" from FCP6 with a ProRes 422 sequence. The exported footage is very "cloudy" and washed out. When I export to an .mp4 from FCP6 as a QuickTime Conversion, it's not as bad, but the contrast is still way too bright. I'm at a loss as to why this is happening. Any ideas?? Thanks in advance!!!

I too use a Canon mark II and post at cinema5D.com all the time. You might find some helpful resources there for shooting and handling the footage from that camera. I suggest this because you said the Sony HDV camera looks OK compared to the 5D footage. My 5D footage beats all my HDV cameras in highlight detail so this is suspicious.
The 5D is a challenging (and rewarding) camera but the exposure system is hard to manage. It is possible your footage was over exposed in-camera. If not, you can try running the footage through Apple Color and check the video scopes. Areas around the faces should be around 55 to 65 IRE in the Waveform monitor. Your display might need to be calibrated. This would explain the difference between the computer monitor and the TV output. It is also possible you have not updated Quicktime. There was a big update to QuickTime which fixed the way the Canon h264 files are interpreted and this fixed most issues like the ones you are describing.
Your camera also should have the latest firmware update from Canon which added manual controls in the M mode. Without this, the camera is constantly changing its exposure during the clip and will tend to blow out highlight details easily if there is a predominance of dark colors in the scene.
Also, you can try enabling highlight tone priority on the camera, which is sort of like a Black Stretch mode on some camcorders which adds a stop of highlight detail.
Regardless, the fact that it looks the same in all mediums except your computer monitor suggests the problem is a poorly calibrated monitor. I'll bet your footage is not properly exposed, but for some reason it appears to be this way on a dimly set monitor. Forgive me if I've over simplified the problem.
One last test you can do is change your compression settings to Animation and render just a few frames. Don't do too many, because the file will be huge. Animation doesn't use any color management (this is called absolute colormetrics) wherein the ProRes and h264 CODEC's are relative colormetric. If the footage still looks wrong in animation compression, you can eliminate the gamma shift/color management from your list of culprits. Hope that helps you figure this out.

How do I set up Premiere as ProRes 422 at 1440 x 1080?

Hello.
I am still on the learning curve for Premiere Pro having held out on FCP 7 for as long as possible.
Anyway.
I need to edit a project that was shot on HDV.
It was originally captured as ProRes 422 in FCP at 1440x 1080. I am now importing the video files into Premiere.
I want to continue to edit in ProRes 422 at 1440 x 1080.
I have the ProRes 422 codec installed for Premiere but I can't figure out how to change it from its default of 1920 x1080. When I change the 1920 to 1440 it changes the 1080 to 810.
I might be doing this in the wrong place. I am attempting to change it in the sequence settings under video previews. I can't seem to find anywhere else to change it.
Can someone please advise?
Many thanks.

Open a matching Sequence by dropping the clip on the "NEW ITEM" Icon at bottom of the Project Panel.

HDV to PRoRes Progressive

I need to make HDV 1080i clips into ProRess 422 Progressive
Should I use: Advanced Convertion > Apple Codecs > ProRes for Interlaced material 8 bits > image control for a progessive output
Or another setting??
Thanks.
b. Can I mix Pogressive, Interlaced, HDV and ProRes in the same timeline and export it via the QT convertion ProRes (for an Import into Compressor for MPEG2).

I've got and used 7toX. Works great.
The ProRes 422 is already a lot higher resolution than my HDV, so maybe the 'optimization' might be a way to go.
I would convert beforehand with Compressor, but there are 4500 shots. I'd be converting for a week.
Rather than bring the whole project over at once, I want to load in a scene at a time, get used to FCPX, and be able to back out quickly (and return to FCP7 or Premiere) if I find I have trouble with FCPX. But after badmouthing it for a year or so I'm startled to find it looks kind of inviting ... they've done an awful lot to it since I first tried it.
I guess I'll bite the bullet and try a few scenes.

HDV to ProRes 422?

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