Export HDV rendered as ProRes 422?

I've searched the forum and can't find this topic specifically addressed, so here goes a new question.
Sequence is HDV (1080i60) which is set to render ProRes 422 (there's a reason for that, below as a note).
It's quite a long sequence (an hour and 20 minutes) with almost everything color corrected (just the FCP color corrector). So when I finally rendered "all", it took its own sweet time basically rendering everything. I checked the render files, and sure enough, they are ProRes 422, 1440x1080i as expected.
When I go to export, if I use "current setting" (not self contained) it writes everything again as an HDV file (kind of expect that) and doesn't use any of those costly (time and space) reference files; if I specify ProRes 422 like the render files (not self contained), is dutifully writes new files as well.
Is there any way to export this as a "reference" movie and have it use the render files it's already spent a bunch of time making? Either export takes about as much time to do as that rendering did originally on my G5 2.5 Quad: about 4 hours or more. Not to mention doubling the disk space requirement.
Note: the reason I used ProRes 422 rendering was that if I render in HDV (what I usually do), there are severe quality problems with parts of the movie; it seems that keyframed scaling and cropping cause a problem with HDV when it renders. INterestingly, the preview is fine, and ProRes 422 rendering is fine. and when I say quality problems, I mean extreme blockiness: like 16x16 blocks: it's awful and I think it is a bug (which I asked about here some time ago and go zero answers).
Eddie O
Message was edited by: Edward A. Oates
Message was edited by: Edward A. Oates

Everything that has already been rendered (prores 422) wants to get rendered again. I haven't determined what happens if I go ahead and let that render take place and then export from the ProRes 422 time line since the render takes a long time. Remember that the only reason that I need to do all of this is because if I render in the HDV time line using the sequence codec, I get problems that are there even if Quicktime opens the HDV render files. It's kind of a serious bug in FCP 6.0.2 which has not been addressed (I have sent it in as "feedback" some time ago).
I edit in HDV because it is fast enough for me and I don't "conform" (that is, render) until the end when I about 95% sure I'm done. So I use only 13GB/hour instead of about 50GB/hour. There are only a couple of places where I need > 1 stream (transitions between camera shots, a very few picture in picture effects).
I guess maybe the work flow for me (given my preference to save disk space for now) will be to edit in HDV until I get what I want, and then instead of "conforming," copy the sequence to a ProRes 422 time line and let that render. Hopefully, if I export that as a "reference" movie, it will use the render files as the reference files.
Thanks,
Eddie O
Message was edited by: Edward A. Oates

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HDV: Rendering in ProRes or not ?

My project was shooted with a Sony Z1 camera in NTSC. I am planning to capture in HDV.
I `ve read various articles on the HD workflow like Ken Stone`s one on the subject.
http://www.kenstone.net/fcphomepage/hdv_timeline_to_sddvd.html
Also, in this thread:
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=8222386&#8222386
Ian R. Brown indicates:
The best way I found after extensive testing was to export the finished HDV >project directly to Compressor for encoding and burn in either DVDSP or Toast.
It's also the quickest way. I experimented with ProRes but apart from taking >considerably longer I did not see any improvement in quality.
My output is a SD DVD. My project has fades and fades in and out, very minor color corrections or even none, slow motions but no other effects.
Should I render in ProRes or not? What will be the benefits?
Thanks.

I've used the HDV workflow, and the Pro Res workflow, and both finish just fine to SD DVD. What was a pain for me using my JVC HDVcam and Deck was the strange interruptions in capturing using the 720p HDV settings. The clips would be broken into many small clips, sometimes right in the middle of a scene with a few frames not being captured. I've found that I get more continuity using the pro res 422 capture, but you don't get the capture control that you get with HDV capture. I can't tell a difference between the two codecs on a 47 inch HD TV.
Hope this helps.
Matt

HDV exported as ProRes 422 produces 4:3 in iDVD?

AVCHD exported from FCP X as ProRes 422 works perfectly in iDVD producing a 16:9 DVD.
HDV doesn't, even though QT Player plays it perfectly.
The odd thing is that 4 years ago, using legacy FCP my exported HDV videos had no problems being recognised as 16:9 by iDVD.
So why are FCP X produced HDV videos not recognised as 16:9?
P.S. I know that iDVD never recognised DV in the 16:9 format but it always worked with HDV.
Incidentally, the old trick of opening it in QT Pro and changing the frame size to 1024 x 576 does not work!

The AVCHD was actually 50p footage in a 25p project exported as ProRes via Share>Export Media.
Worked perfectly in iDVD.
The HDV was standard 1440 x 1080 treated just the same and came out as 4:3 in iDVD which I suppose is what it is when the pixels are square.
I have found a workaround/solution.
Make a ProRes 422 custom preset in Compressor specifying a frame size of 1920 x 1080.
Works perfectly and iDVD sees it correctly as 16:9.
Only downside is that converting using the custom preset takes at least twice as long.
Regarding the weird moire pattern when using FCP 7, I have just exported the clips as ProRes 422 1920 x 1080 and they appear normal.
The moire pattern appeared when I exported the clips as native HDV, something I always did years go with no problems.
So I have found workarounds but not solutions.

Aren't FCPX and Compressor supposed to be able to export Apple ProRes 422 LT? I just bought FCPX and Compressor and there seems to be no way to transcode HDV clips to Apple ProRes422 LT. Before buying I read LACUG tutorial by R Taylor that says it can.

Aren't FCPX and Compressor supposed to be able to export Apple ProRes 422 LT? I just bought FCPX and Compressor and there seems to be no way to transcode HDV clips to Apple ProRes422 LT. Before buying these I read an LACUG tutorial by R Taylor that says it can.

Tom is right. Codecs are shared software system-wide ("Core Video"). If you cannot find the option with any software (such as MPEG Streamclip), you won't find it in Compressor or FCPX either. The Quicktime ProRes codecs is part of the FCP menu > "Download Additional Content" you need to make after install FCPX (or Compressor.) These "pro video" codecs are part of all "ProApp" licenses for video related software from Apple (QT7Pro, Motion, Compressor, Final Cut, etc....) [you can also download them here: http://support.apple.com/kb/dl1396]
Most articles/tutorials you read by "long time" users are apt to assume the reader has been working with pro-video on Macs since the days of disk installs (like they have). In those days, the installation of those codecs wasn't even really an option (well, it was if you did a custom install - but who *didn't* install all available codecs??), it was automatically installed with the main software. Since the "App Store" venue... things have changed somewhat.

FCP Apple PRORES 422 (HQ) setting-how to export?

I am importing and dropping in scanned images from the storyboard into FCP and then importting and placing on the timeline some digital animated images which have been done in the format 1920x1080 24fps. They have been put through shake and we chose the setting Apple PRORES 422 (HQ) which I have then set the FCP settings to match that. Everything works fine in Final Cut but then when I export the timeline to make it into a Quicktime movie, the digital animated shots dont play properly, they like skip frames. Do you know anything about this and how I get it to play smoothly? I have tried everything I can think of and nothing is working!

First off, ProRes HQ is VASTLY OVERKILL for converted flash video. That is for 10-bit high end formats. All you gain in using that over ProRes 422 is file size.
Second, 640x432 is a non-standard frame size. 640x480 is more like it, but really, FCP would like to see 720x480. ProRes doesn't really work in RT with the dimensions you have.
Convert the FLV to something like DV50 or just DV. but you have to get the right aspect ratio, or things will require rendering. Or better yet, get the MASTER footage, and not a flash video.
Shane

Apple ProRes 422 HQ needs rendering, but it shouldn't.

Sequence Settings (hereafter called the master sequence) are:
Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) 1920 X 1080 24p 48khz preset.
Frame Size: 1920 X 1080 (HDTV 1080i 16:9)
Pixel Aspect: Square
Editing Timebase: 23.98fps
Compressor: Apple ProRes 422 HQ
Audio: 48khz/16-bit
Footage is:
Apple ProRes 422 (HQ)
Frame Size: 1920 X 1080
Pixel Aspect: Square
Editing Timebase: 23.98fps
Compressor: Apple ProRes 422 HQ
Audio: 48khz/16-bit
Data Rate: 19.5 MB/sec
I need to put a timecode window burn on the entire movie for a web clip. So I exported a ProRes master as a QuickTime movie using the sequence settings. I then imported that clip and slipped it into a new sequence with identical settings (hereafter called TimeCode burn sequence) and was surprised to see the red render bar across the entire sequence.
As an experiment, I exported a brief (one minute) clip from the same master sequence. I then slipped that clip into my TimeCode burn sequence and it does not need rendering (it shouldn't).
I shouldn't have to render the Master clip first, only to have to re-render it once I but the window burn on. The movie is 30 min. long and the file size is 34GB. Is there a file size limit on ProRes HQ clips that don't need rendering? Why don't the shorter clips from the same sequence need rendering. I don't understand this. Very time consuming.
EDIT: I will probably end up using the Timecode Generator option in Compressor, so please don't suggest this, as I am aware of it. I want to figure out this mystery.
Message was edited by: Mr. Landers
Message was edited by: Mr. Landers

No, you're absolutely correct to use HQ. Just checking.
The Red footage is has 4:4:4 subsampling, so HQ's the way to go.
If you generally use Recompress All Frames on Export then you probably know that it's pointless to render your timeline before an Export, since your Render files won't be accessed. Unless you need to work in that same sequence with the timecode - but, you could just use your exported master for that.
I know the recompress all frames option is probably overkill for a sequence with only one effect, but I'm also thinking about drive space. With those huge Red files, your render files have to be eating up quite a lot of it.
So, I'm suggesting that you don't need to render this sequence before exporting. Just export the unrendered sequence with Recompress All Frames. That saves you the space the render files would be taking up.

"Cloudy" Footage when Exporting ProRes 422 Timeline

Hello everyone,
I'm having a problem when exporting a "QuickTime Movie" from FCP6 with a ProRes 422 sequence. The exported footage is very "cloudy" and washed out. When I export to an .mp4 from FCP6 as a QuickTime Conversion, it's not as bad, but the contrast is still way too bright. I'm at a loss as to why this is happening. Any ideas?? Thanks in advance!!!

I too use a Canon mark II and post at cinema5D.com all the time. You might find some helpful resources there for shooting and handling the footage from that camera. I suggest this because you said the Sony HDV camera looks OK compared to the 5D footage. My 5D footage beats all my HDV cameras in highlight detail so this is suspicious.
The 5D is a challenging (and rewarding) camera but the exposure system is hard to manage. It is possible your footage was over exposed in-camera. If not, you can try running the footage through Apple Color and check the video scopes. Areas around the faces should be around 55 to 65 IRE in the Waveform monitor. Your display might need to be calibrated. This would explain the difference between the computer monitor and the TV output. It is also possible you have not updated Quicktime. There was a big update to QuickTime which fixed the way the Canon h264 files are interpreted and this fixed most issues like the ones you are describing.
Your camera also should have the latest firmware update from Canon which added manual controls in the M mode. Without this, the camera is constantly changing its exposure during the clip and will tend to blow out highlight details easily if there is a predominance of dark colors in the scene.
Also, you can try enabling highlight tone priority on the camera, which is sort of like a Black Stretch mode on some camcorders which adds a stop of highlight detail.
Regardless, the fact that it looks the same in all mediums except your computer monitor suggests the problem is a poorly calibrated monitor. I'll bet your footage is not properly exposed, but for some reason it appears to be this way on a dimly set monitor. Forgive me if I've over simplified the problem.
One last test you can do is change your compression settings to Animation and render just a few frames. Don't do too many, because the file will be huge. Animation doesn't use any color management (this is called absolute colormetrics) wherein the ProRes and h264 CODEC's are relative colormetric. If the footage still looks wrong in animation compression, you can eliminate the gamma shift/color management from your list of culprits. Hope that helps you figure this out.

HDV Sequence vs. Apple ProRes 422 Sequence

Is there a disadvantage to capturing and editing HDV, then creating a ProRes 422 output instead of capturing and editing ProRes 422 from the start? Will there be loss incurred or some other undesirable effect in the workflow in the former over the latter?
Thanks
Larry

Hi Ian
With FCP Apple introduced a new capability for native HDV and XDCAM HD timeline editing, that being the ability to specify the render codec as ProRes ... which means that renders do not need to be "conformed" to the native GOP structure (so much much faster) and better still, they get the expanded chroma resolution offered by ProRes (ie 10 bit 422 over HDV's 8 bit 420). With this ability the average user can enjoy all the benefits of a high quality intraframe codec for effects/renders and at the same time all the benefits of low bit rate iterframe codec for mass storage. Best of both worlds.
You set the render codec in the Sequence Settings >> Render Control tab
You'll love it.
Best
Andy

Help needed in exporting a ProRes 422 clip out of CS5 AE

First, I have very limited skills in AE, but I just used it to rescue a scene from a high profile interview. The subject had taken a sip of water that left a incredibly shiny reflective spot over is mouth and I was able to use the clone tool and paint over the affected frames. I could probably have used the Motion Tracking tool and a mask...but I've probably learned the hard way.
So here's my question...
This project started in Final Cut Pro. The footage is 1080p 29.97 ProRes 422.   I duplicated the affected ProRes clip (about one minute) and started an AE project with it. The clip resides as a layer in the composition.   The clone tool changes that I made are recorded in the Effects tab that is now part of the dropdown menu in the clip.   Although I probably should have done this on an adjustment layer (so it's non-destructive), but will make a note for next time.
I have reviewed the clip in AE frame by frame and the results appear to be great.
The question is...how do I get my corrected ProRes clip out of AE so I can use it in Final Cut?   Is the way that I did this did I end up baking in these changes to existing ProRes 422 clip and I don't have to render it, etc.?
Or do i have to go in to the AE project and toggle something within the composition, highest quality, collapse something...and then possibly do a render output?   I want to end up with how it began...ProRes 422.
Any detailed advice would be extremely helpful so I can preserve the high quality work I've done in AE!
Thanks, John

Well, I answered my own question. Rendered out the clip with the lowless animation codec Quicktime movie. Then used Apple's Compressor to convert it back to ProRes 422. Brought it back into FCP and it looked great.   You can't tell any repair work has been done on the image.
I would have used Adobe's Media Encoder to convert it to ProRes, but from tests I've done previously, and in fact did a thread on it in Premiere's forum about one month ago, the Media encoder tends to slightly soften a ProRes image. And this is something I've reported back to Adobe...along with a chroma tearing issue as it encodes back to ProRes. Hopefully there will be a patch to correct this behavior.

Capturing in the HDV-Apple ProRes 422 Preset

I am trying to capture some HDV footage in Final Cut 7 using the HDV-Apple ProRes 422 preset. However, when I go to log and capture after changing the audio/visual settings, the program immediately asks me to enter a file name and then jumps right into a capture now rather than bringing up the usual log and capture screen.
Has anyone else run into this problem, and if so, have any solutions to fixing it? This is the first time I have used this capture preset, so there may be a step or setting I am accidently skipping.
Thanks in advance.

If you are capturing HDV as ProRes, this is normal. This is the only case that this happens like this. Only with a capture card can you get the normal Log and Capture window. Converting one format to another via firewire...typically requires a card. This is a special case.
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/poisson_chris/hdv-prores.php
Shane

I have a sequence shot on the 550d/rebel T2i, I converted it to prores 422 and edited in fcp. What is the best export that i can do to preserve quality and prevent pixelation.

i have a sequence shot on the 550d/rebel T2i, I converted it to prores 422 in MPEG Streamclip and edited in fcp. What is the best export that i can do to preserve quality and prevent pixelation. Rite now, i have been just clicking on the export to quicktime function, but the quality of the footage is completely reduced and colours look desaturated and there is pixellation compared to the original camera footage. Also is there anyway i can render and export the sequence using the original footage (like an online edit or something). Also is there anyway to upgrade the final quality. I have Compressor, Dvd Studio pro, Motion, Color and Cinema tools, i dnt know if they are of any use to me and have no idea how to use hem or what they are for also.

>What is the best export that i can do to preserve quality and prevent pixelation
The best way to export is entirely dependent on what you plan to do with the exported video. For example, if you plan to go to DVD, the export process is different than if you plan for web delivery or for iPhone viewing. Compressor has presets for most final delivery formats ... start with those.
>is there anyway i can render and export the sequence using the original footage
Yes. In FCP, go to File-Export->QuickTime Movie. Check the box to make the movie Self-Contained and use Current Settings. Do NOT "Recompress All Frames." The resulting self-contained movie will play on any Mac that has the needed audio and video codecs installed.
>is there anyway to upgrade the final quality
No and maybe. While you technically cannot improve quality over the original, you can possibly 'enhance' the aesthetic quality of the video using various filters in FCP or Color.
-DH

Capturing HDV Into ProRes 422 (LT) Via FireWire

I read this fine tutorial on Moviola on the technique of Capturing HDV Into ProRes Via FireWire.
http://moviola.com/hdv_prores
Since you can choose ProRes 422 (LT) as an option in the Log and Transfer window, I was wondering if there is a way to capture HDV to ProRes 422 (LT) via firewire like in the above mentioned article.
I tried creating a custom capture setting in the AV Settings, but ProRes 422 (LT) was not available as an option, only ProRes 422 and ProRes 422 (HQ). And those settings cannot be edited or duplicated (grayed out).
I don’t know why ProRes 422 (LT) is available in the Log and Transfer window but not in the AV Settings window. Maybe it will become available in an update.
In the meantime, does anyone know a way to get around this? Maybe modifying an FCP file somewhere?
Thanks,
======
Richard

HDV is recorded to tape inside of the camera as digital information. Component coming out of the camera is analog. The camera is performing the first conversion D/A, from HDV (digital) to component out (analog).
Component going into the ioHD is analog. The ioHD then converts via its hardware to Prores (any flavor), which is digital. The ioHD has to convert the analog from the component outs of my camera to digital for use in FCP. FCP only uses digital video.
You said "The IOHD internally converts to ProRes.." converts to ProRes is the second A/D conversion.
So the path is D/A/D. I count that as two conversions, camera D/A as one the ioHD A/D as two.
I don't want to unnecessarily convert from digital to analog to digital which is why I don't use the ioHD to convert from HDV to Prores (any flavor).
Unfortunately I don't have any digital outs for this camera, neither HDMI or HD SDI.
I believe capturing and converting HDV to ProRes via firewire in FCP doesn't have this D/A/D conversion which is why I'd like to be able to capture HDV to ProRes LT via firewire in FCP and stay digital all the way, with no analog conversions.
I use the ioHD for all of my analog to digital conversions. It's a great box from a great company.
Thanks,
=====
Richard

Black frame on ProRes 422 multicam export

No issues when watching a project in PP but when exporting within PP get a random black frame in export. Re exported several times and black frame would move to different parts of the video. Tried flattening cams, no fix. Previosuly to issue -- updated CC 2014, CUDA driver update. Music Video had 5 cameras, 1 track of audio. - have some effects in the project like blurs with dissolves. Plays back beautifully, h.264 files were fine. Just when exporting final version to client did this occur. Tried new sequence, no difference. Only fix was a ProRes 422 HQ file. Really didnt need HQ, standard was what was requested. footage is native canon dslr 7D and 5D footage. Any ideas? Also, weirdly I have to change the default codec from GO Pro Cinema to ProRes 422. I'm sure there are a million variables but wanted to see if anyone had stumbled on this and had a suggestion.
New Mac Power book with 1 TB ssd.
Maxed ram and gfx.
External FW800 drive.
latest update to PP CC 2014
ProRes 422 1920x1080
generic QuickTime profiles for 1080
don't have specific settings handy

#1 - You shouldn't be using ProRes HQ. All you are doing is doubling the amount of space the footage takes up. HQ is really meant for 2K footage or higher...stuff projected on a BIG screen. If this is going to DVD...SD DVD or BluRay, then regular ProRes will be your best option.
#2 - Are you looking at this footage on an HDTV? That is the only way to really tell what your footage will look like. Because the way FCP shows the footage, and QT shows it, are different. QT typically brightens the picture so that it will be viewable on most monitors. BUT, if you choose the FCP COLOR COMPATIBILITY in the QT preferences, it will show you what FCP shows you. And if this is too dark, then you need to color correct it to be how you want it to look. BUT! You cannot judge what the footage will look like on a computer monitor. It is VASTLY different that what an HDTV, or regular TV, will show you. You need to get the signal to the HDTV (HD capture card) and then color correct the footage to look the way you want it to look.
#3 - Avoid HQ. Seemed like it needed repeating.
Shane

HDV to ProRes 422?

I've got a 90 minute movie to cut. 2/3'rds of the original material was shot with a Sony HDV camera 60i. The other third is XDCam (HQ), also 60i.
I'm trying to figure out a protocol.
The film is aimed at some kind of theatrical distribution, festivals for sure, possibly a network airing. (It's an engaging subject, and very nicely shot, despite the older format).
Anybody done this? And might you have some recommendations?
Do I 'optimize' on my import? I notice FCPX optimizes the HDV to ProRes 422 (not HQ), but at 60i. Is there a way to set a different optimization?
Should I bother with a proxy when the original was only HDV (now being optimized to ProRes on import)? The system I have at hand here seems to be fairly robust.
Or. Should I edit the HDV original? And then just output in whatever codec seems appropriate (when I've done some more research)?
Any suggestions would be most appreciated.
Ben

Thank you guys, very helpful.
And Tom, this is all footage that was captured in FCP7, mostly a long while back, except for the XDCam. So the HDV was captured from the Sony camera, and the XDCam was the EX3, so straight from the cards (using FCP's capture transfer setup).
Now I'm playing at switching the whole project over to FCPX. Mainly because FCPX looks so intriguing. And. I had to do an emergency colour grading of an IMAX movie last week, for a test screenig ... working on their HD proxy cut. I was going to do it in Colour, but I haven't used Colour in six months, and it's a daunting creature to get back into after long breaks. I've been toying with FCPX for a couple of weeks, just a few minutes here and there, and tried the colour grading setup. Wow. In ten minutes I was up to speed. We did an XML of their film (being cut in FCP7). An hour later it was in FCPX. And a few hours later I had a really really nice grade. It blew me away. Yesterday we did the 'real' grade in a relatively high-end studio. Very good people. Brand new hardware - with lots of nifty buttons and tools. But I swear the end result doesn't look any different than what we got from FCPX. In fact. I'm toying with the idea of actually pulling the 4K into FCPX, and outputting it with MY original grade - just to make a comparison. Now wouldn't that be intriguing. And horrible, ultimately, for studios with such a huge capital outlay. Then again. It ain't the equipment. The colourist was a total pleasure to work with, knew his stuff.
Thank you very much for your help guys.
Actually, there is still a question in my head. I'm used to working in 24p. This film is for theatres, festivals, even a network airing perhaps. Is a 30 fps master going to work in those venues? I seem to remember that the new digital projectors don't care what the frame rate is. Have I got that wrong? And does it matter whether my master is interlaced or progressive? I hate the interlaced look - but I'm not sure what this footage is going to look like de-interlaced.
And. I'm going to do a lot of colour correcting on this show, and some modes special effects (possibly do those in Motion), but in a 'realist' sort of way; no green screen. Just trying to make the whole look more cinematic. But I'm not attached to the 24 fps thing. Though 30 fps this stuff was SHOT like a film, it already looks cinematic. But I'd love to somehow ameliorate the inevitable 'video' look of the medium.

Export failed to meet required bit rate and color space specs - ProRes 422 to MPEG2

Using Premiere Pro CC v7 I exported a ProRes 422(HQ) file to MPEG2 and selected the HD 1080p 23.976 preset. I needed the finished file to have a minimum bit rate of 50Mbps and the color space to be YUV422. I was way under the minimum bit rate and the color space was incorrect. Can someone please instruct me on how to achieve my desired results. Thanks!

The source frame rate is 23.976, so I guess I would go with 24p. My intention is to upload the file to a streaming video website. They have their specs laid out for me, I just happen to be new to all of this so I am having a tough time meeting them.
My question right now is, if i have selected the MXF OP1a XDCAM option with XDCAM 50 NTSC (4:2:2) video codec, will the export be in mpeg2 and what will my bit rate be? I have no way of viewing the bit rate with this configuration.
Here is a screen grab of their required specs:

Export HDV rendered as ProRes 422?

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