InDesign vs FrameMaker

I will probably end up needing both, but right now I would like to focus on one or the other. I write aviation manuals and would like an alternative to MS Word, which so far is working fairly well for me.
My typical project is 100-150 pages. I don't have many cross-references or need to reference between manuals.
My question is this: Will InDesign function in a way that will give me the basic word-processing features with headers and footers that can change with each page (for varying revision date and #), or will I need to replace Word with FM?
I will be posting this question on the InDesign forum as well.
thanks,
brian

P Spier wrote:
You can create a text frame anywhere onthe page and put anything you like into it, so yes, you could do that. Put something on the master page and it will appear in that postion on all pages based on that master.
There has actually been some other discussion here in the recent past about aviation manuals and things like tables of effective pages. You might wnat to search the forum for aviation and see what comes up.
Dang! I replied to the post on the FrameMaker forum, and I suggested including aviation in Google search terms. I was going back to add the list of effective pages and LEP to the search suggestions, but you beat me to it.
The FrameMaker thread is here: http://forums.adobe.com/message/3339121#3339121
Brian, it would be a good idea to consolidate your thread on one or the other forum, and provide the link. It gets confusing to switch between them. Perhaps for someone not familiar with both FrameMaker and InDesign, it's not a problem.
HTH
Regards,
Peter
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices

Similar Messages

From FrameMaker to InDesign

Hi,
I am new to this forum, and I am new to InDesign. I have actually never used InDesign, but I have many years of experience with FrameMaker.
My situation is that many of my clients are interested in switching from FrameMaker to InDesigen, which means that the various applications I have developed for converting text into FrameMaker must now be changed to fit InDesign instead. I have been reading on the web about importing text into InDesign, but quite frankly I am not at all sure how to go about doing this, or if it is at all possible.
With FrameMaker I develop applications in VB, which converts text from whatever format (xml, databases, ascii text files, etc.) into FrameMaker's MIF-format. These MIF-files contains all information needed for the publications, and they are simply read into frameMaker like any proprietary file, and there you have it. I do have an SDK for FrameMaker, but I don't use that for creating documents, as it is both slow and cumbersome to use.
Is it possible to do something similar with InDesign?
I need a way of converting which is very dynamic. I don't have a fixed template for every page, as no pages are identical. It is typically a flow of text with images, tables, lists, etc. which are presented on the page as they come. I need to be able to mark words for indexes, make lists of contents, make cross references between pages, scale images, use new master pages according to contents, and otherwise be able to format the text in any way that you would be able to do directly within InDesign.
I would prefer my convertions to end up in files which can simply be opened (or imported) into InDesign without the user having to do further work (like handling templates or importing text into one chapter at a time). If it can be done in a separatate application without using an SDK, I would like that too, as they usually turns out to be slow. A typical publication would contain 500+ pages, several thousand images and tables, so I would prefer a method that doesn't require hours or days of data crunching (with FrameMaker it takes a couple of minutes to make such a complete 500+ pages publication.)
Any advice is welcome. Even telling me that it would be stupid to switch from FrameMaker to InDesign, because I really don't see the point myself, but if my clients want it, then I do what I can to help them. But talking them out of it could also be a solution. :-)

FrankB62 wrote:
Hi,
I am new to this forum, and I am new to InDesign. I have actually never used InDesign, but I have many years of experience with FrameMaker.
My situation is that many of my clients are interested in switching from FrameMaker to InDesigen, which means that the various applications I have developed for converting text into FrameMaker must now be changed to fit InDesign instead. I have been reading on the web about importing text into InDesign, but quite frankly I am not at all sure how to go about doing this, or if it is at all possible.
With FrameMaker I develop applications in VB, which converts text from whatever format (xml, databases, ascii text files, etc.) into FrameMaker's MIF-format. These MIF-files contains all information needed for the publications, and they are simply read into frameMaker like any proprietary file, and there you have it. I do have an SDK for FrameMaker, but I don't use that for creating documents, as it is both slow and cumbersome to use.
Is it possible to do something similar with InDesign?
I need a way of converting which is very dynamic. I don't have a fixed template for every page, as no pages are identical. It is typically a flow of text with images, tables, lists, etc. which are presented on the page as they come. I need to be able to mark words for indexes, make lists of contents, make cross references between pages, scale images, use new master pages according to contents, and otherwise be able to format the text in any way that you would be able to do directly within InDesign.
I would prefer my convertions to end up in files which can simply be opened (or imported) into InDesign without the user having to do further work (like handling templates or importing text into one chapter at a time). If it can be done in a separatate application without using an SDK, I would like that too, as they usually turns out to be slow. A typical publication would contain 500+ pages, several thousand images and tables, so I would prefer a method that doesn't require hours or days of data crunching (with FrameMaker it takes a couple of minutes to make such a complete 500+ pages publication.)
Any advice is welcome. Even telling me that it would be stupid to switch from FrameMaker to InDesign, because I really don't see the point myself, but if my clients want it, then I do what I can to help them. But talking them out of it could also be a solution. :-)
If clients ask you to switch their work from FrameMaker to InDesign, and after discussing it thoroughly, you and they agree that it's a good idea, then go for it! If you both agree that there's value, good, and if you both agree that it's not appropriate, good, too. Perhaps it's not appropriate at the present time, but perhaps reviewing the decision periodically, after you've both had time to research and experiment with InDesign and have some experience with converting old content, and have compared working in InDesign with converted content, and developing new content, you'll be better able to decide.
Search Google for terms like "converting FrameMaker to InDesign," "FrameMaker vs InDesign," "compare FrameMaker and InDesign," "InDesign scripting," "InDesign and XML," "importing FrameMaker into InDesign," and similar terms, without quotes, for links to a wealth of discussions. You'll find many of my earlier posts on this subject. I often mention DTP Tools' (www.dtptools.com) commercial InDesign plug-in, MIF Filter, as one solution to consider. I have no connection to the company other than having used the product some, and having reviewed it for InDesign Magazine a couple of years ago. You can use the product free as much as you like, to see how well it works on your files. You can't save or print the conversions without purchasing a package of page-conversion credits; it works like a phone card. Depending on your designs and layouts, it may or may not suit your projects.
Here's one from today on this forum: http://forums.adobe.com/message/3206944#3206944
InDesign has a strong scripting capability, using applescript, vb, and/or javascript. It also has a useful XML import ability, but not round-trip like FrameMaker.
The projects you describe sound more like InDesign-type page layout designs, than the usual FrameMaker single-flow documents, so perhaps InDesign would be suitable, especially if you and your clients find FrameMaker isn't completely satisfying. Be sure to look at FrameMaker 9 closely before leaving it - if you've been a long-time FrameMaker user and developer, you may have overlooked some of the newest features.
HTH
Regards,
Peter
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices
Message was edited by: peter at knowhowpro

FrameMaker 8 versus InDesign CS 3 Question

This may seem like a silly question, but we need to ask it.
We have been building our technical manuals, books, and training materials in InDesign for quite a long time.
Is there a benefit to switching to FrameMaker for our technical writing needs?
I only stumbled onto the product site when looking for screen capture utilities via the Captivate 3 product page.
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Philip E.

Hi, Philip:
I don't think you've stated why you're considering other solutions than the InDesign one you're already using. If you could state your satisfactions and dissatisfactions with ID it would be helpful to you, as well as to anyone who might have a suggestion or recommendation.
I looked at the comparison at http://www.adobe.com/products/framemaker/comparison.html
and found marketing-speak that clouds some of the information. There's also some comparison of features that aren't close-enough counterparts to be compared. Finally, some third-party tools are mentioned that supplement FM, but some that supplement ID aren't mentioned; for example, cross-references.
One example of an incomplete comparison is drawing tools. You can do a lot with FM's rudimentary drawing tools (they were advanced when first introduced, but they haven't evolved.) ID's drawing tools are Illustrator-class.
If your workflow uses external tools and simply places them into your documents, superiority or inferiority of the drawing tools are a non-issue. Similarly, other aspects of your workflow may indicate which features of which product should carry weight when deciding on the most appropriate tool.
RE: Thomas Bro's points:
* InDesign lacks FrameMaker's ability to apply master pages depending on body-page content; however, FM added this recently - in the past it was available as a third-party tool. ID's designed as a container of plug-ins; there are many third-party tools extend it, both plug-ins and scripts. ID's also designed to be scripted by relative amateurs as well as professional developers.
* There's a cross-reference plug-in for ID, from dtptools.com, that's a bit more advanced than FM's built-in. Like FM, they become links in PDF documents.
* Although ID currently lacks conditional text, XML manipulations can do the same thing. In fact, there are third-party XML tools for FM that claim to offer more conditional flexibility than FM itself.
(PS: Thomas, I read a long time ago about someone who wrote, as well as edited and reformatted, documentation in DOS's EDLIN, where each line ends with a carriage return, and almost all operations require special trigger keys to perform them! It's only one or two steps above cuneiform.<G>)
If you need to create online Help systems, FM's the clear choice for the simplest path through well-proven tools. XML from ID could be used to work with help tools, though it's not a a common path yet.
HTH
Regards,
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices

Adobe Framemaker V Indesign

Hi,
Probably a daft question, but:
What can Framemaker do that cannot be done in Indesign?
Reason I ask is that I am proficient in Indesign for years now, and I am doing a Masters degree at the moment.
The application that is being used in the course is Framemaker, so I am simply wondering what is the difference between them?
I have installed the trial version of Framemaker and I cannot see what the target audience would be for this application.
Any insight into the intended users of Framemaker would be appreciated so I can understand it better.
Regards

Macnimation wrote:
Hi,
Probably a daft question, but:
What can Framemaker do that cannot be done in Indesign?
Reason I ask is that I am proficient in Indesign for years now, and I am doing a Masters degree at the moment.
The application that is being used in the course is Framemaker, so I am simply wondering what is the difference between them?
I have installed the trial version of Framemaker and I cannot see what the target audience would be for this application.
Any insight into the intended users of Framemaker would be appreciated so I can understand it better.
Regards
No problem with the question. However, it raises others you may want to look into:
* If you're very comfortable in InDesign, why consider changing to a product you're unfamiliar with?
* Does your project (thesis in this case) require anything that your current version of InDesign can't do with built-in features, free or inexpensive scripts, free or inexpensive plug-ins? If you find that InDesign CS5 lacks features, you'll have to wait for a new release that might offer them; if you are using an earlier release, CS5 may have them already.
Have you searched with Google? Here are some good starting points:
* Search for "framemaker's market" without quotes.
* Search for "framemaker thesis" without quotes.
* Search for "framemaker <specific feature name>" without quotes for more information on a feature that's present or missing.
* Search for "compare framemaker indesign <specific feature name> without quotes.
* http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=convert+InDesign+to+FrameMaker
* http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=convert+FrameMaker+to+InDesign
* http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=differences+between+FrameMaker+and +InDesign
* http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=compare+FrameMaker+to+InDesign
After you do your research, if you have questions about specific features present or missing in one or the other application, please start a new thread with the specific question as the topic.
HTH
Regards,
Peter
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices

Adding a bibliography to an InDesign document

I'm trying to decide whether it would be best for me to switch to InDesign or Framemaker to replace my current word processing practice, which is to use MS Word for text and graphics-based docs and to use a TeX-based word processor for doing technical docs with math expressions in them. For InDesign, there are good equation editors (on the expensive side, though), CS4 InDesign has cross-reference capability, but what I don't see is any bibliography capability in InDesign, either within the product or as a third-party plug-in. How do people do bibliographies who use InDesign for technical document word processing?

Hi Bill,
Thanks so much for your reply. Unfortunately I did not communicate my
question very well. I know about Document>Insert. All I wish to do is to add
a blank page to my document. From page 100>101. Or between page 25 and page
26. If I can deleted a page,
I should be able to add a blank page. Yes? No? John

FrameMaker Compatible with Mac in Future?

Is anyone aware if future versions of FrameMaker will ever be compatible with a Mac? I used to work on a Windows computer, and I really enjoyed using FrameMaker to create Install/User Manuals. I work on a Mac now, and I am just wondering if it will ever be available with a Mac.
Thanks!

Bonnie Scheckner wrote:
Thank you for your response peter at knowhowpro. I know it is possible to run FrameMaker from Windows on a Mac, but specifically I was wondering if there are any plans to make future versions of FrameMaker compatible with a Mac. Your response is still quite helpful. I may have to switch to InDesign. Thank you!
You're welcome, Bonnie.
You're pointing out that I didn't REALLY answer your question, because I didn't say something like, "If there are plans, anybody who knows can't tell, as they'd be committed to a non-disclosure agreement (NDA) and violating the agreement would cause the person to lose all participation in any Adobe NDA thereafter."
I answered obliquely by suggesting a Google search for past discussions on the issue, as there are many reasons for why Adobe probably wouldn't even consider the task, as well as suggestions of how easy, theoretically, it would be for Adobe to tweak a few things, and magically have FrameMaker for Mac.
Except for the cost of Windows (if using the free Apple BootCamp) or the additional cost of Parallels or Fusion, and perhaps adding RAM, FrameMaker in Windows on Mac is almost a perfect reproduction of FrameMaker in Windows on a PC.
I'm writing a book on InDesign for FrameMaker users. Try the Google search I suggested for views, experiences, and opinions from those who've thought about this move, as well as those who/ve taken the step across the line. If you do make the move, post your questions and discoveries on the InDesign user forum.
HTH
Regards,
Peter
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices

InDesign table features

There are some table features that Adobe FrameMaker has, and I'm trying to find equivalent features in InDesign. I hope someone can help me locate those features or provide workarounds:
FrameMaker can include a Table Title paragraph as part of the table style. Is this possible in InDesign?
FrameMaker has a "Table Continuation" variable that can be inserted in a table title or table heading row. This is useful for long tables that split from one page to the next. Is that available in InDesign?
As part of a table style in FrameMaker, you can specify widow/orphan settings for rows. For example, if you want at least 2 rows to be kept together, you can make that part of the table style. Is that possible in InDesign?
FrameMaker has a resize columns command that resizes the columns to the width of the text within the cells. In InDesign I find myself tediously resizing each column separately until the text fits in the column. Is there such a resize to width of text command in InDesign?

1, No, InDesign has not such a function.
2. You can do it in InDesign with any text, so you can do it here: Create a text frame, write a text like "Continue on page ###" For the ### use the marker Nxt Page number and lay the text frame on a position where it is at least a little bit overlapping the main text string.
3. No, only paragraph styles can it.
5. Neither.
Bring it to the Feature Request.

FrameMaker 8 crashing constantly

Been running FM v8 (unstructured interface) for a couple of weeks now (Windows XP), and it crashes at least 2 times every day. I can produce PDFs fine (with the highly publicized "fix"), but I'm getting all kinds of mysterious memory-related error messages. It seems to happen on Paste operations fairly often, and it seems to happen most often when I'm working in graphic frames. Not seeing much in the forums about FM8 blowing up, and I can't make heads or tails out of the error logs that FM is generating. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. FM8 is now costing me time and trouble, and I'm not impressed.

With Windows XP Professional SP2, FrameMaker 8 crashes with about 20 documents in a book whenever I either do an Update Book and Generate Lists or Save As PDF. I am not using a font manager but have installed Adobe CS3 including Adobe Acrobat 8 Professional. I assumed that Acrobat 8 is a superset of the version of Acrobat Distiller that comes with FrameMaker 8 and hopefully should work.
My configuration is:
FrameMaker 8.0.0 for Intel
Build: 8.0p266
Window System: MSWindows XP Professional SP2
Operating System: Windows NT 5.1 (major.minor.build: 5.1.2600 Service Pack 2)
System: Quad-Core, 4GB RAM, plenty of available disk storage, two 24 inch monitors
Adobe Acrobat: 8.1.1
Adobe Distiller: 8.1.0 (Note that I started this up and this is what was displayed in the log text window (Im not sure if this is a problem):
Acrobat Distiller 8.0
Started: Monday, December 24, 2007 at 15:29:07
Adobe PostScript software version: 3016.102
CID support library initialization completed.
Error in PDFX4 2007.joboptions:
/CheckCompliance out of range
The book uses OpenType/Type 1 fonts, cross-references, tables, and links to graphic files. Page size is 8 in. x 9.25 (so it is smaller than letter page size). I made sure that no other Adobe CS3 application was running and I did the following with this book:
1. Save [the book] As XML. Worked (all files were processed successfully to create the XML).
2. Print [the book] to an HP Laserjet as a PRN file. Worked.
3. Update Book and Generate Lists. Crash with Error number 8004 (Internal Error: 8004, 8443407, 4460228, 4414681).
4. Save As PDF with PDF Job Options of Standard (just to keep it simple). Crash with Error number 8004:
And then, in this case, when I click OK, another error window is automatically displayed.
Bam!
Im not sure if:
The book has too many chapters.
The book has content that FM 8 doesnt like.
There is a coordination issue with Acrobat Distiller (does FM 8 still use Distiller?).
So, I made a simplified book with four files (Title, TOC, 1 chapter, and index).
1. Saved As XML. Worked.
2. Update Book. Worked! (This is great, compared to the long book example that crashed)
3. Save As PDF. Crashed with error 8004.
I am packaging the files to send to Sameer of Adobe (looks like he volunteered in a prior posting) but I am having to keep both InDesign and FrameMaker documents updated cause I am not trusting FrameMaker 8 at the moment. If, as Larry Carey, says in a prior posting that there is a much publicized fix, Id sure like to know about it.
With Adobe CS3 installed I really dont want to remove / uninstall Acrobat 8 if I can help it. The Activate/De-activate feature can be a mess. I also dont quite know how to diagnose this issue because the number of possible causes of these errors are almost endless and I dont have the time. I still have FrameMaker 7.1 installed (is that the cause?) so I guess I could try that too.
Please, any suggestions???
Ken (Software Maniac)
Seattle, WA

General Question of FrameMaker

So my boss is wanting me to write a review on page layout/desktop publishing software, and they are convinced that they want FrameMaker on our lineup. As i look at it more and more, I just get more confused. Is it like InDesign or PagePlus? Or is it someting completely different and I am just an idiot. Also, don't answer the last part of that question.

IMO, your original post has an important clue, namely, "page layout and publishing." FrameMaker can do layout. When it was first introduced on unix, it was an achievement just to be able to work in WYSIWIG mode, rather than plain text, or for the power users, plain text with embedded formatting codes. So, users could have great layout control on screen, write text, create and import graphics in real time. Macintosh was only a few years old then, so even layout software on Mac wasn't that much more powerful than FrameMaker. However, as dedicated layout software evolved, FrameMaker's layout abilities weren't competitive, because it was evolving as a technical document publishing tool.
Although FrameMaker can do layout, it's not much farther along than when it was first introduced. Don't misunderstand, it was pretty good then, and it still is. But it's not on par with true layout tools. There's some confusion, because layout tools like InDesign have become hybrids, as they continue to incorporate more and more features that compare to FrameMaker's long and complex technical document abilities.
Search Google for terms like "reviews of framemaker," "framemaker compared to InDesign," and "framemaker for layout,"" without quotes for some links to additional perspectives on what FrameMaker is and its suitability for layout/design, compared to InDesign.
HTH
Regards,
Peter
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices
jinx2416 wrote:
That makes sense. I will start from there then. Every time I open up a video tutorial, it is an XML page that they are working on, so that's why I was thinking it was for dev.
Thanks for your help.

OLE embedded Adobe Illustrator Artwork files not rendering properly

I'm using BroadVision's Quicksilver. I've attempted to embed AI Artwork
files as OLE objects (linked and not linked), but they don't render within
Quicksilver. After working with their support team, they came to the
conclusion that it was an Adobe Illustrator issue because they were
able to reproduce the issue in Wordpad (not MS Word).
The problem can be reproduced by the following steps (tested in Vista,
XP, & Server 2008):
:- Open Wordpad
:- Click Insert -> Object -> Create From File -> Browse -> Find and select a file -> Open
Other variations on this theme encounter the same problem, including
pasting it from the clipboard.
If you open a Wordpad document in MS Word and embed the OLE
object, it saves a preview of the image which is visible from Wordpad
if you open it later on (as long as you don't link to the original; if you do,
and attempt to update the link, the preview image will go away). However,
subsequent alterations of the OLE object don't show up in Wordpad -- rather,
the image that was rendered in Word continues to be displayed (unless, of
course, you open it in MS Word again and re-save after the link is updated).
It appears the support team at another company encountered a user
experiencing the same or similar issues with their product, but on
Illustrator CS2 as opposed to CS4:
http://www.graphpad.com/faq/viewfaq.cfm?faq=1309
Unfortunately, the "export to another format" workaround won't suffice.
We're working with thousands of Illustrator artwork files that need to be
version controlled, and other technical documents will link to the same
Illustrator file. When an AI file is updated, all technical documents
need to use the altered version; linking to an exported version of the
file just creates one more link in the chain that can create problems
or confusion.
Even if the version control stuff wasn't an issue, exporting to other
formats seems rather limited. If we export to other formats (eg, pdf)
the images render poorly compared to what they look like in AI.
We've tried a number of things to work around this:
* Make sure AI [is/is not] already running
* Rasterize paths
* Alter the size of the image in AI
* Alter the size of the object in the target application
* 'Save as' with a different version of AI selected (for all versions)
* Saving as an EPS or PDF -- the former has the same rendering issue
as AI files; the latter renders but the drawing is blocky, probably because
the graphics are being rendered at a very low resolution and scaled up
after the fact.
* Looking for or changing preferences in Illustrator that might affect it
* Altering color scheme and various other similar settings
* CS5 trial version -- same problem as CS4
* Save the [wordpad] document -> close -> re-open
* Switching between 'display as icon' and displaying the image
* Copy & paste from various sources (from AI -> Wordpad,
MS Word -> Wordpad, etc)
The only way I can get it to render in Wordpad (or quicksilver for that matter)
is if I embed the AI file in a Word/RTF document, then embed that in
the target application (which is awfully convoluted). Furthermore, if the
embedded Word/RTF file links to the original file, when you open the
document containing the embedded Word/RTF it doesn't attempt to
update from the linked AI file, just the linked Word/RTF file.
I'm sure there's other things we've tried to resolve this, but that's what comes
to mind right now.
If anyone can help with this, or clue me in that it's a bug in AI, I'd sincerely
appreciate it.
-Brian

Well, no offense
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
None taken. I'm helping someone else solve a technical problem, I'm just not questioning their approach; I'm not a tech writer, so I'll pass your suggestions on.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(...) you are trying to solve one hell of a crooked workflow on the wrong end and the one fatal flaw being that you insist on using an office tool to create layouts and expecting it to render print-ready documents. That just cannot work. Even the most stubborn tech writers I occasionally work with, recognize the need for eventually firing this at InDesign/ InCopy/ Framemaker and associated server versions and fuse the imported RTF/ Word documents and illustrations based on template layouts, scripting and rule-based formatting, which can all happen automnatically on a server with the respective software.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I was mistaken when I described how things are version controlled. They would prefer to embed the AI images in each document and have each document be version controlled (that is, if the image changes it should /not/ affect other documents).
However, I wasn't mistaken when I said there are thousands of already developed AI images. The team working with these images has already procured a volume license for Framemaker and is hesitant to purchase other software unless there's no alternative, or the time savings would justify it. I wish I could comment on the efficacy of your suggestion, but I'm not a tech writer; I'm unfamiliar with InDesign, InCopy, and FrameMaker.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
So for what it's worth, you are probably wasting your time and resources on something that by its nature starts out with a limited process. I'm not even sure if AI fully supports OLE. I seem to remember having read about it not supporting several features and commands....
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
If we export to other formats (eg, pdf) the images render poorly compared to what they look like in AI.
What do you mean? If they look "bad" in Acrobat or something, then you are simply using the wrong export settings. which is perfectly fixable.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
In Acrobat the SV graphics look beautiful at any scale, but if the PDF is OLE embedded in another application it looks terrible.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
If they look "bad" within your word documents, then we pretty much return to what I said in the first paragraph - there's a good chance it's simply Word rendering the artwork poorly due to its limited abilities of dealing with graphics of any kind. I would even think that manually changing the graphics properties would improve appearance then....
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I'm not an expert on OLE; I made the [potentially bad] assumption that Acrobat would be responsible for rendering the graphic when a PDF is OLE embedded, so the application making use of the object would have limited control over the quality of the image it receives (if my assumption were correct anyway).
I know the host process can specify whether the image is rendered as an EMF or WMF image, otherwise I know very little about the OLE API and what limitations the host process can impose.
I'll keep tinkering to see if the PDF solution can be made to work.
In the meantime, would anyone like to make a determination as to whether this is a real bug in AI or not?
-Brian

Local vs Server Saving

What differences would be experiened if one saved documents created in say InDesign, Photoshop, FrameMaker (yeah, I know FM isn't in CS!) locally rather than over the network on a server disk?
Clearly saving over the network on a server HDD has benefits in terms of backup, recovery, sharing etc, but are there any major performance bottlenecks or even problems generated by doing this vs saving locally?
We've been having some issues with InDesign freezing up on a couple of PCs and somebody suggested this as a possible solution. Whilst I'm not confident it will be the solution I couldn't say what the difference would likely be.
Thanks!

Reading and writing across the network are generally slower than doing the same operations locally, so yes there is a performance hit. There is also increased risk of data corruption due to network problems that come up from time to time.
I can't really speak about Photoshop -- not much experience with saving over the network for that -- and I've never used Frame, but we get people who lose files from time to time in the InDesign forum. While not recommended by Adobe, working across the network is common practice in larger organizations (I'm talking about remotely storing the .indd file -- linked files in InDesign that are stored on a server are not the same isssue as working on the InDesign file itself stored remotely) where many users need access to the same documents. If the network is robust there usually is no problem, but I like to add that anyone working across a network should assume there will be file damage or total loss at some point and should have very good backup routines in place. Of course, that's pretty much true for working locally, too.
I coach production for the student newspaper at the local community college, and we have to work across the network there (for many of the reasons you cite). So far, knock wood, we havn't lost anything, though we had one incident about five years ago where a file would no longer open as original, but we were able to recover by opening as a copy.

I am using a code based typesetting program (not WYSISYG) that outputs PDFs. I am producing 100 plus pages that have multiple graphics on each page. I need to know how to format a PDF command that I can incllude in my programming that will tag my graphics

I am using a code based typesetting program (not WYSISYG) that outputs PDFs. I am producing 100 plus pages that have multiple graphics on each page. I need to know how to format a PDF command that I can incllude in my programming that will tag my graphics with "Alternative Text".
I know that with a Microsoft product graphics can be tagged before a PDF is made. I need to know how to do this with my programming.

The Acrobat SDK might be a starting point.
From there, perhaps a plug-in (built with C+).
Perhaps with a licensed release of a PDF Library (this could be $$).
The viable and cost effective alternative is use the tried and true.
Authoring in an appropriate authoring application with appropriate tag management.
Example: Adobe InDesign; Adobe FrameMaker or MS Word with PDFMaker (comes with install of Acrobat).
This way you place "Alternative Text" when mastering content in the authoring file.
Going the route and with some look-see (research) you may find programmatic approaches to placing the alt txt in the authoring file.
Note: as discussed in the Matterhorn Protocols there is no programmatic method that provides a fully accessible PDF (specifically, that is an ISO 14289-1, PDF/UA-1 compliant PDF).
Regardless, here you have a sub-forum for discussions on Acrobat usage.
Consequently discussions on/of 3rd party software is rather out of scope eh.
Be well...

Differences between 7 and 8 for long books

I am considering FM 7 and 8 for producing a long book. The issue with 8 is that it requires SP2 on XP, and I can't put that on my writing system.
So that would favour 7 unless its features are noticably lacking compared to 8. Here are the book requirements, please read carefully --
* There are 4 parallel columns spread across 2 facing pages -- each column has its own text, layout, font and size, different from texts in other columns.
* All 4 columns in the spread (2 on even pages, 2 on odd pages) must retain their positions on the spread, no matter which page of the book you turn to.
* There is absolutely no left to right wrapping of columns in a parallel column layout. This means all columns flow down - even to even, and odd to odd.
* This page flow must be automatic -- I am simply NOT going to draw frames for all pages and manually link them across a 400 page book, it is absurd.
I need to know which one of 7 or 8 supports automatic wrapping of 2 columns on even pages to the next even page, and the two columns on the right odd pages to the next odd page (if you don't understand this requisite column flow, please leave it for other to reply who do -- thank you). If both FM 7 and 8 are more or less the same, that would be very helpful information too. Please give compative capabilities as it relates to parallel book columns.
BTW, another really crucial feature is being able to manually set a FIXED line height in each column -- not in point size, like InDesign does (that does not work for precise alignment) -- I should be able to specify the line height in each column in decimals of an inch. Which one can do this?
Your help on these specific questions is much appreciated. Please no discussion of FM 9. I will not be getting that version. Thanks

ScratchyBoy wrote:
Mike --
That weird work-around is indecipherable to me (column less than a character width??) -- would you care to explain it in the context of this thread?
I noticed that Arnis has already explained the reason for using a tiny frame in each thread to carry the flow across pages where you don't want to display that content.
The reason Jay posted that is because he was on my question in InDesign, realized the serious failing of InDesign to handle a 2-page spread of parallel columns, and obviously wanted to see if FM could do it. He did a book in FM with only 2 columns, hence the "entrenched" concept of even-to-odd page flow worked fine for him.
You know, I have personally read 100+ books with 4 parallel texts like I am describing, and I am sure there are thousands of ones I haven't read with a similar layout. It takes scarcely 2 seconds to realize, looking at the 2 page spread, that even page columns MUST wrap to even page columns, and odd to odd. It's not an "unusual, special" request, it is a NECESSARY REQUIREMENT of 4 parallel columns spread across facing pages. Surely you can see that? But it seems that Adobe developers either never read any scholarly texts, or they just don't understand parallel texts -- period.
Have you contacted the folks who created the books you're referring to, to learn what tools they used for the books? Just seeing the final print version, or even the PDF, can't reveal the underlying construction.
Maybe the truth came out in that thread. Framemaker, as it was originally conceived by the original developers, DID allow correct page flow for parallel columns -- but once Adobe got it, they killed that ability, dumbing it down to InDesign's level, which cannot do it. Peter so much as admitted to that fact on that thread, that somewhere in the versions, this feature was killed. Which confirms the above paragraph.
Winfried Ring responded to my question about the feature not working in later FrameMaker releases, in that other thread, that the technique still works in later FrameMaker releases. The key, Winfried pointed out, is to begin the document with one body page, regardless of whether it's a single-page or facing-page layout. This keeps FrameMaker from getting confused about where the flows should go on the new pages it creates as any of the flows grows to the point that it creates a new page.
I think you're trying to imagine how these techniques will work, rather than trying them out hands-on. I've done that myself; it's a good learning style for some things, but in this particular case, you need the empirical experience of seeing how the software's built-in mechanisms behave. Until and unless you do it and gain the experience, you can't imagine, project, empathize, conjure, or visualize how these things work. You do have a clear vision of what you want for the end result, however.
In FrameMaker, as in InDesign, as in PageMaker, as in QuarkXpress, you draw text frames on document pages, or on master pages, using a text frame tool. It's named differently in each application.
The tools are for users to apply their vision and creativity, so if you need a certain kind of layout, you need to lay it out yourself. If your particular layout were common, there would very likely be at least one template for available in each professional publishing tool's community.
Why should I even consider FM 9 ?? Adobe wants $1000 bucks for it -- they brag on its "improved features for book production". What a laugh! They can't even conceive of scholarly comparative books across a HUGE gamut of subject areas -- so why should I consider it ?? I'd love for someone to tell me: "YES !! I am proud to announce that FrameMaker can do this natively out of the box !! " But I don't see it coming, do you?
Professional tools cost huge money to develop. If you use them professionally, your work should bring in the revenue to pay for the tools.
As has been said by many posters on many threads in regards to most software, especially the professional tools, it's very unlikely that you'll find a legitimate copy of a past version for sale. The older the version, the less likely there will be a legit copy on some dealer's shelf that pops up, and is put on eBay for a song. It's illegal to sell old versions that one uses to upgrade to a new version. You'll not be able to register the license; in recent versions of Adobe products, you won't be able to use the software at all after the trial period expires, without a valid license.
Using a license cracking tool is also illegal.
It sounds as if your hardware and Windows version limitations are constraining your software choices. It's a tough set of choices.
Oh, BTW, here's a link to a PDF of a FrameMaker example of what I think you're talking about:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/363247/fm%207X7%204-parallel%20flows%20across%20same-side%20pages. recover.pdf
EDIT:
In the PDF, the small fragments of text are the "pass-through" threaded frames that Arnis described. They're larger than a single character, so you can see the text flow through; in real use, they should be teensy.
/EDIT
It's trickier in InDesign because it's built-in ability to create new pages as stories grow is trick to accomplish the same behavior. The In-Tools plugin that was mentioned can do this.
If you're persnickety about typographic control, InDesign is the better tool. FrameMaker isn't a slouch, it's just that InDesign's been bred for the task.
Regarding lining up the text across columns, InDesign and FrameMaker both can control baseline alignment. You'll need to try out both tools to decide which works the way you need.
HTH
Regards,
Peter
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices

TOC text flows on top of existing text

My book text is in a master text frame and everything seems find -- until I try to generate the table of contents. After I have loaded the cursor and click on the page I want the TOC to start, the text simply dumps out on page after page, over the TOP of the existing text.
How can I get the TOC to flow into the text frame and push the other text down, just as if I typed more pages?
Thanks.

P Spier wrote:
AlphaSmith wrote:
Thanks, Peter. I'm batting nothing today. I did what you suggested, added some pages and flowed it in.
Are you referring to the master page linkage, or are you still having trouble with the TOC?
I see you are a Frame refugee, and in all honesty your biggest hurdle using ID is going to be to stop thinking in terms of how you used to work in other applications. Once you start "thinking in ID" you'll find your workflow gets much smoother, and amy actually be a lot more productive. I was never a Frame user, but was a Pagemaker and very heavy Quark user for years, adn it took me a few months to catch on. For me, going back to Quark now is like trading a ferrari for a bicycle.
Hi, Peter S:
In this case, FrameMaker's method is what you're suggesting for InDesign. FrameMaker generates TOCs and other lists and indexes as separate files, which are then usually added to multi-file books. Updating a book gives the option to update or ignore any of the defined generated files. This is partly a vestige of the old days, when computers had much less horsepower than they do today, so omitting the generated files when updating a book, saved time. It's still a useful option in collaborative workflows where different users manage different book component files.
InDesign's TOC-generation behavior actually overcomes one FrameMaker difficulty - incorporating TOCs in individual files and updating them.
As to vehicle comparisons between FrameMaker and InDesign, for technical publishing, it's more like comparing two bicycles or two Ferraris; they're quite close to each other. The real differences are in areas that matter only to the drivers. FrameMaker's closely-integrated with help-system creation tools, XML, and DITA (Darwin Information Typing Architecture - a method of authoring that reduces content duplication enforces consistency in re-used content.) If you know the old kiddie cartoon show, "Wacky Racers," you'll see the feature competition similarly - it's a constant state of one getting ahead by a huge leap, then another takes the lead for a while because of a brilliant discovery, or due to the leader's stumble.
HTH
Regards,
Peter
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices

Where can I find a (legal / legit) copy of CS4

I am a corporate Training Manager who is trying to learn new skills on my own, for my own professional development and to create an interactive newsletter for employees at the company I work for. Unfortunately, there is no way I could convince my employer to purchase CS4 for me and I cannot afford to buy it for myself. =(    I don't want to be ripped off by someone who might sell me a fake copy. Is there someplace online where I could buy a used copy of CS4 (or InDesign or Framemaker) from someone who has possibly upgraded and just doesn't need their old copy of CS4 or maybe just doesn't use it anymore?    In other words, I'm not trying to do anything illegal, I just cannot afford a new copy.   It would seem like there would be a legit way to purchase an old copy?

I appreciate the good suggestions that I received in response to my question below. Even thought the cost is extremely high, I MIGHT be able to get this approved as an expense at my job (I'm hoping, but still iffy).
If I am able to get it approved, my question is..... Would I be able to load the software on both my desktop and my laptop?   I typically work on both of my computers (desktop and laptop), depending on where I am and what the project is.
I would hope that I would be allowed to use the same serial # to load the program on both computers without having to worry about doing anything illegal or causing a big flashing warning message or sirens to go off??!   When I purchased Adobe 8 about a year ago, I actually called the Adobe helpline and asked if I was allowed to load it on both computers and the represenative said yes, that the software allowed for a max of 2 different uploads to 2 different computers at the same time.   Do you think this is also the case with CS4 Master Collection?
Last question....... If my request for CS4 gets denied because of the cost, is there such a thing as CS3 (similar to CS4 Master Collection) that is still available to purchase in stores? If so, what is it called?   I glanced through the Adobe site but didn't see anything.   If there is an older CS3 version that includes the various types of applications (including InDesign), what is the specific pkg called?
Thank you for the assistance!

InDesign vs FrameMaker

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