Noise Reduction and RAW

I use a Rebel T4i, but the model really should not matter I think.
When Hi ISO or Long Exposure Noise Reduction is set does it apply to RAW?
I am under the impression that RAW get no additional processing. But I'm learning to look at my images in new ways. Something doesn't add up. It seems like the noise reduction is applied to RAW images. My mind is going to explode pretty soon if somebody doesn't set me straight.
Solved!
Go to Solution.

Long exposure noise reduction is applied directly to RAW. It's "destructive", burnt into the file. It takes the noise readings from the second "dark" shot and subtracts them from the first image, and creates a single RAW out of it.
High ISO noise on the other hand is just listed as a setting. Programs like Lightroom will ignore it, but some programs, like Canon's DPP will apply it on import. I don't use it so I can't say for sure, but I'd imagine that you can adjust it since it's just a setting.

Similar Messages

Any chance Photoshop itself will get Camera Raw's noise reduction and sharpening?

I would love to have the noise reduction and sharpening from ACR 6 in Photoshop itself for JPEG, TIFF, and PSD files. Yes, I know I can open those files in ACR, apply noise reduction and sharpening, and then have it then open the files to Photoshop. But it would be so nice if we could do that without having to go through Camera Raw.

Matt Howell wrote:
Yes, I am absolutely saying that the noise reduction and sharpening of ACR 6 is vastly superior to any filters in Photoshop CS5.
For those who only work only with RAW files this is a non-issue, but I sometimes prefer to use TIFF files generated by CANON DPP software or occasionally even JPEG's straight out of Canon DSLR's. Going through ACR just for noise reduction causes unnecessary color space conversions, as well as just a needlessly complex workflow.
Perhaps you should ask Canon to make DPP noise reduction better. I also do not think is a good idea to get too aggressive with noise reduction and sharpening when you first bring a image into Photoshop unless you only use the image single use for a particular output device. Your better off working with a somewhat soft image till you ready for output and then sharpen for the output devive being used. If you use strong sharpening and NR up front sharpeing again for your output device may produce unwanted sharpening and NR artifacts... There are several third party noise reduction and sharpening plug-ins that are better then Adobe Photoshop built in ones. Noise reduction has to be balanced too much will loose detail masking detail is important. ACR noise reduction provides masking adjustments and works well. Third party plug-ins offer offer advanced masking features also. Photoshop noise reduction filter has a basic preserve detail slider which I presumes does some kind of masking but this is not as good at ACR masking and third paty masking. You can of course add you own masking before using photoshop noise reduction filter. Sharpening also needs masking for sarpening will sharpen noise as well as detail.
IMO your better off with third party plug-ins that are designed to be the best. They keep getting better there is no clear winner for all images. I'm been satisfied with NeatImage and I have only had to pay for two upgrades. I had to pay for the addition the 32 bit plugin then and for the addition a 64 bit plugin. All other updates to NeatImage has been free of charge even the lates version 7 of the 64 bit plugin was no charge for me.

Sharpening, noise reduction and blurring (general)

Sharpening, noise reduction and blurring ...
I need to read an extensive and up-to-date reference about these topics in digital imaging.
I would like to learn your book advises ...
Thanks a lot.
PS. It can be technical.

Thanks Jeffrey,
I want to learn all the sharpening algorithms in the digital imaging world today (and also for NR and blurring, as they are closely related subjects with each other).
Indeed, I'm trying to understand the PS and LR tools.
And, in order to understand their tools completely,
I think I should have a solid background on these subjects ...
For example ...
I could not understand yet how the detail slider works in LR.
It is said that it uses deconvolution algorithm ... but if you ask me it looks like a smart sharpen applied to the high frequency.
Is smart sharpen deconvolution?
Looks like ... but I don't know.
Like this ...
Of course, I can use them without knowing them so much,
Just "need for knowledge"
I read Jeff's book, but I think I need more.

Exporting JPEG = loosing Noise reduction and sharpening, poor quality compare to RAW

Hi guys,
I bought LR 5.0 not even a month ago and I was so excited to use it.
Now that I am done working on my projects I exported them as JPEG into my hard drive. This is a disaster. My pictures are amazing in my lightroom as RAW now you should see what they look like in JPEG. I can't believe it. I obviously did something wrong but I can't figure what it is. My JPEG pictures looks extremely grainy. I did shoot at a High ISO for most of them. It is probably the real problem here but there's certainly a way to make it work in JPEG since it looks good in RAW. Please tell me what to do from there. How can I keep the same quality in JPEG than I already have in RAW? I choose JPEG - quality 80% or 100% (tried both) - sRGB. Should I resize the image too?

Are you applying export sharpening, which would exacerbate any remaining noise-grain? Are you judging the sharpening and noise-reduction at 100% 1:1 zoom? You have to, otherwise, the resampling-for-display algorithms in LR and your OS viewer might be doing something completely different.

Application of Noise Reduction to RAW files on import LR 3.x

The Noise Reduction sliders by default are at the same setting 0 for Luminance and 25 for Color at all ISO camera settings.
Does this mean that the same degree of noise reduction is applied to all raw files?

I have a series of Canon 5D MKII RAW test shots ranging from ISO 100 to ISO 25,600 of the same subject. Checking the affect of the Luminace NR slider in LR shows that it is "weighted" based on ISO. The image shot at ISO 100 shows very little change to the image detail at 100% Luimnace NR setting. The ISO 3,200 shot with only moderate noise looks almost blurred at a 100% Luminace setting. I have no idea what alogorithm is used to determine the weighting versus ISO setting, but clearly there is some weighting applied. I'm guessing it is non-uniform and applied much heavier at very high ISO where noise becomes predominate.

Noise reduction and sharpening in LR4

Am I the only one that feels that the LR4 NR is inferior to that of LR3? I swear the only slider that does anything is the luminance and it is not as precise or powerful as LR3. The detail and contrast slders don't seem to do anything?? And as for the sharpening, the radius and detail seem to not do much as compared to LR3. Is it just that it is slower than LR3? I just feel as if I can't dial in things as precise. I am using RC1 with 5D3 files. Should I go for RC2? I heard is was even slower. Thanks

As far as I know, nothing was changed in the sharpening and noise redution between LR 3 and LR4, so I think you are "seeing things" that aren't there...and yes, PV 2012 takes more processing than PV 2010 but the image detail (sharpening and noise reduction) should be the same...

MEMS accelerometer: noise reduction and improve resolution

Hi to all, I hope to post in the right place.
I have a 14 bit MEMS digital accelerometer, I need 100 sps output rate.
I would like to start tests with LabView before move to microcontroller but first I have these doubts:
First step: sensor could work up to 1200 sps, so I'm thinking about reading data at 1200 sps to increase resolution.
Is there any suitable algorithm specific for this case or just oversample then avarage results to 100 sps?
Second step: I've heard it's possible to use multiple (2-3) sensor at same time to reduce noise (Kellman filter?), right?
If so I haven't found examples on the net, just using sensors grid (isn't my case).
Is there available any example?
Thanks. Michele.

At the end, my final application is measure signal with maximum pk-pk value of 1-1,5g, maximum bandwidth 50Hz.
Target accelerometers has got about 300ng PSD value, at 24 bit resolution, I would likr to know what can I do with commercial accelerometers.
Hi, I've take as example application note AN4075 from Freescale:
- sensor MMA8451 14 bit digital output, +/- 2g fullscale, 0,25 mg/count
PSD = 85ug/SQRT(Hz)
Signal bandwidth = 200 Hz
Sample frequency = 400 Hz
RMS noise = 1,2mg (on 200 Hz bandwidth)
pk-pk noise = RMS noise * 4 = 4,8 mg
I have 2,8 mg of noise where I have a resolution of 0,25 mg/count, so I got at the end efective resolution of 11,05mg.
Other sensors could be BMA180 from Bosch or LIS3LV02DQ from ST (both digital output).
1) can I improve performances of these sensors?
I've read I can increase resolution with oversampling, but I think I would be limited to the maximum sample rate of sensor (1200 SPS for BMA180 or 1600 for LIS3LV02DQ)
If oversampling would be correct way, I think I could use external ADC (due to high SPS I can reach in this way, digital sensors has got maximum SPS up to 1600) to increase SPS value.
But if I increase resolution through oversampling (let's suppose I can reach 24 bit resolution), which would be efective number of bits?
2)I can place sensors much closer, so I think I can get same acceleration reading from 2 (or more) sensors. In this case I would reduce noise throu Kelman filter.
But examples I've fond on the net are based on "estimated" value I suppose, and on "real" value I read from sensor.
So I have no idea how implement Kelman filter.

Upscaling and noise reduction in ACR

I've been thinking about upscaling images and the best time to do so (if I need to of course) in my workflow. As I understand it, it's always best to carry out any noise reduction prior to upsampling an image, as this helps avoid increasing the size of any noise that may be apparent in the image.
However, I'm thinking that in ACR, this in theory would not be neccessary as ACR would carry out any noise reduction and upsampling in a pre-defined processing order. So put simply, I could increase the image size and then carry out any NR as required after upscaling. This would allow me to tailor the NR to fit the increased image dimensions (and of course I could then carry out capture sharpening for the larger image as well).
Is my thinking correct here - does it not really matter in terms of image quality if I don't do any NR before changing the image dimensions in ACR?
M

I did a lot of experimentation with upsampling during conversion.
I found that - in my opinion - upsampling during Camera Raw operation yields superior results to doing it later. I also believe that dialing in some noise reduction during Camera Raw is needed, as even low ISO images get pretty grainy otherwise.
Every camera is different, but what I ended up saving for defaults is this, keeping in mind that I do my conversions to the largest possible image size, then downsample later for specific uses.
Only you know what your goals are and what you like in your images, so I encourage you to experiment as I did with different combinations of settings to try to find the right balance.
-Noel

Lightroom, Photoshop, RAW Presharpening, Noise Reduction Workflow Help

I'm tying to determine a best practices route using Adobe Lightroom, Adobe Photoshop and Nik Software Sharpener and Dfine (Noise Management Software).
I shoot only RAW with a Canon EOS 30D with good quality lenses.
I import the RAW files from the CF card directly (DNG and save) into LR, add keywords, organize, etc.
However, I am now at the point where I need to determine a sensible workflow that includes these steps:
Import RAW into LR as DNG.
Edit, as needed, in PS.
Apply RAW Presharpening (as provided in Nik Sharpener).
Manage Noise (with Nik Dfine (2.0 available in next 24 hours).
Apply usage-based sharpening prior to printing or saving final file version.
Maintain organization in LR.
My original plan was:
1. Import RAW in LR.
2. Open in PS.
3. Apply noise reduction.
4. Apply RAW presharpening.
5. Save (with new version being an "Edit" copy back in LR.
6. Maintain organization in LR.
I'm wondering, though, if I wouldn't be better off doing the basics to the files prior to LR import. Note that the Nik tools work in 16-bit mode.
This is theoretically what I'm thinking, and would appreciate other user's input:
1. Save RAW files to location on Mac.
2. Apply Noise reduction to RAW files with Nik software within PS (perhaps automated, perhaps batched).
3. Apply RAW presharpening to RAW files with Nik software within PS (perhaps automated, perhaps batched).
4. Import noise- and presharpening-adjusted files into LR, with metadata additions, etc.
5. Open files in PS as needed, with files becoming edit versions within LR.
Any thoughts?

To summarize, then:
First time opening a RAW file from Lightroom, LR automatically creates a copy and appends "-Edit" to the filename. If it's a RAW file, only available option is the third option in the dialog box: "Edit a Copy with Lightroom Adjustments."
Once opened in Photoshop, any number of adjustments can be made and saved. All adjustments are reflected in the -Edit copy when previewed in back in LR.
If, later, I want to perform further PS edits on the -Edit version, I have 3 options as presented in the dialog box.
1. "Edit Original (LR adjustments will not be visible)"
2. "Edit a Copy (LR adjustments will not be visible)"
3. "Edit a Copy with Lightroom Adjustments"
Option 1 will open -Edit version #1 (but it will not show any changes made in LR to the -Edit file when opened in PS)
Option 2 will create a copy of -Edit version #1 and open that new file, -Edit-2 (but it will not contain any changes made in LR to the -Edit file)
Option 3 will create a copy of -Edit version #1 and open that new file, -Edit-2 and it will contain any changes made in LR to the -Edit file
So, a typical workflow would be:
1. Import RAW file in LR.
2. Make adjustments in LR.
3. If needed, open a copy (by default) in PS via LR (command-E).
4. Adjust in PS, save.
5. Adjusted file is stacked with original RAW file in LR.
6A. Assuming no additional edits in LR, further PS adjustments can be made to -Edit version original, keeping just 1 stacked version in LR.
6B. If additional adjustments are made to the saved -Edit version in LR, and further PS adjustments are needed, I must edit a copy of the -Edit file, ultimately resulting in a second stacked file.

Disabling Sharpening and Noise Reduction

Hello. I have Lightroom 1.2. I have over a 1,000 images to process. How can I disable sharpening and noise reduction for all of them without having to click that little detail box for each of the images. I use Noiseware for noise reduction and Focalblade for sharpening. If there is something in a folder within Lightroom I can delete to remove sharpening forever, please let me know. Of course, I want to perform the other corrections in Lightroom as necessary. Thank you.
Francis

Jao, Thank you. I have asked this question elsewhere before. I have recieved replies, maybe I did not follow the directions properly, but they never worked. The sharpening would be disableduntil I went to make another correction. Then back to sharpening Lightroom would go. Your way, sharpening is disabled for all the images and stays that way. Thanks again.
Francis

Noise reduction, Clarity and Masking Vs Sharpness

Maybe I have been using too much noise reduction and clarity for bird photos. Some people on dpReview recommend no noise reduction and now I am inclined to believe them. Recently I tried using little to no noise reduction, little to no Clarity, lots of sharpening and about 40% masking.This gives the bird good feather detail and anything with less detail has little noise and better bokeh. In low detail areas it looks to me like masking reduces the noise caused by Sharpening but it has less affect on the noise increased by Clarity. Is this true? If it is, in bird photography is Clarity best used sparingly and selectively like on there heads?
Another reason for asking all this is I once read that even a little masking degrades sharpness but now I doubt that. Maybe LR has improved that through the years.
Thanks,
Doug

Indeed luminance noise reduction (and to some extent color noise reduction) has a tendency to wipe out fine feather detail.
I recommend:
* lowered noise reduction, and if you do use it, crank the nr.detail slider way up - this will help maintain fine feather detail and is superior to sharpening detail for maintaining feather detail otherwise lost due to noise reduction.
* lowered sharpening detail, to keep noise down, and reduce the "need" for noise reduction.
* and sharpen masking to taste..
Also note: local sharpening at exactly -50 masks all global sharpening, and so can be used in conjunction with noise reduction to smooth the bokeh areas.
And of course you can add sharpening and/or clarity locally too.
I realize I didn't answer your exact question perfectly as asked, but I'm not sure what else to say, so..
Have fun,
Rob

Noise, Sharpening and ACR

I have recently switched from processing my raw files from Aperture to Adobe Camera Raw 4.4.1. I shoot landscapes with the Canon 1Ds Mark III, low ISO, and wish to make very large prints (30-50"). After reading "Real World Camera Raw with CS3" it seems like the authors say that capture sharpening can be accomplished in ACR instead of what I was doing right after Aperture (with sharpening off)- that is, using Ninja Noise and then capture sharpen with Photokit Sharpener. But if I now capture sharpen in ACR I won't be able to use Ninja Noise since one should not sharpen noise. Right? So does this mean that if I capture sharpen in ACR that I should also use ACR's Noise Reduction? Or should I turn off ACR's Sharpening and Noise Reduction and do as I did before - use Ninja and PhotoKit sharpening after raw processing? (I hope this makes sense - I'm still learning the basics). Also any rough settings for what I'm doing would be very helpful. Thanks in advance.

>Not at all. There's ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with that workflow. I would recommend it myself.
>[EDIT] except I prefer Noise Ninja most of the time, and Noiseware in a few cases.
I've discussed this matter with Gordon on another thread, but a few points are worth repeating here. On page 157 of his Image Sharpening with Adobe Photoshop PSCS2, Bruce Fraser states, "Always do noise reduction before sharpening. If you sharpen, you'll almost certainly make the noise worse; the noise reduction tool will have to work harder, and will probably wipe out the sharpening you did anyway."
Most noise reduction tools do not eliminate noise but merely make it less visible. When you sharpen after noise reduction, some or much of the noise may reappear. If you do the sharpening first, this problem is eliminated, but the effect of your sharpening may also be wiped out.
Sharpening and noise reduction are basically inverse processes and work against another. Some of these problems may be eased with the use of masks. You can use a surface mask during noise reduction to help confine the NR to smooth areas where the noise is most noticeable and keep the NR away from the edges where sharpness would suffer. Similarly, you can use an edge mask during sharpening to help confine the sharpening to the edges.
That said, Noise Ninja can work reasonably well on JPEG images that have been sharpened in camera as they often are. In this case, one has to use a different noise profile for the best results.
Bill

How do PS CS3 Noise Reduction Filters compare with dedicated third-party plug-ins?

Am I missing something by not installing a dedicated Noise Reduction application into my PS CS3? Can Neat Image, Noise Ninja, Noiseware Pro, etc. do something that the PS CS3 Noise Filters can't do? Do these third-party aplications do it better?
Since I like flashless photography, and I generally carry with me small-sensor compacts when I travel, I'm frequently confronted with the problem of digital noise. I've always wondered how the third-party noise reduction applications perform in comparison with the Photoshop Noise Filters. I hope someone in this Forum has been able to acquire direct experience on this topic and will be kind enough to share this experience with us.
Kindest Regards,
Conrad

Conrad,
ACR 4.3 has better NR (noise reduction) than previous versions and can handle NR in most normal situations. However, available light photography with a small pixel sensor may require more NR and the specialized plugins such as Noise Ninja, NeatImage, and NoiseWare Pro can do a better job. I have all three and they do an excellent job, but I currently use NoiseWare most of the time.
Here is a demonstration of NoiseWare vs ACR NR, using 100% crops of an image taken with the Nikon D200, 1/320 sec at f/2.8. The image is reasonably sharp at normal viewing conditions, but has quite a lot of luminance noise. It was rendered with ACR and the settings were exposure +0.85, brightness +60. One thing you learn early in this type of shooting is to expose to the right to reduce noise, but this may conflict with stopping action and reducing camera shake. More exposure would have helped this image, and one should try to avoid exposures requiring this amount of positive exposure adjustment.
The results are shown below, followed by some discussion. Other comments are welcome. Color noise is not prominent in this image and I left color NR at its default.
ACR, No sharpening, no NR
ACR, Luminance NR 53, no sharpening
ACR, No NR, No sharpening, NoiseWare default, no sharpening
Noise reduction and sharpening are antagonistic processes. It is important that NR is applied before sharpening--you don't want to sharpen noise. Following NR there is an inevitable loss of detail, and some sharpening is necessary to restore the detail, but this also brings back the noise. One can use masks and blend if sliders in Photoshop in both NR and sharpening to mitigate some of these effects, and Bruce Fraser discusses the details in his excellent book on sharpening.
If you use an add on such as NoiseWare, you should turn off luminance sharpening in ACR. In doing so, you lose all those nifty sharpening features that have recently been added to ACR. I leave color NR at the default. It has a minimal effect on detail.
In adjusting the NR in ACR at 100% viewing, I estimated that a luminance setting of +53 was optimal. Beyond that, blotchy artifacts appear in the image.
For NoiseWarePro, I used the default settings with no sharpening. The NR effect is dramatic, but detail is lost and some sharpening is needed. This could be applied in NoiseWare or in Photoshop, perhaps with a plugin such as PhotoKit Sharpener. Personally, I have found that PK does not work well with this type of image because it bring back noise and produces artifacts.
In all of these examples, sharpening is needed following the NR. One could try to use surface masks to keep sharpening in Photoshop with the unsharp mask away from the edges. However, I find it is difficult to get a good surface mask, and I don't take the trouble.
For now, I use the sharpening built into NoiseWare. I don't know how it works internally, but it does have a slider for detail protection, and you can play with this to get the best result. It would be best to have the robust NR of the add ons built into ACR much like NoiseNinja is built into Bibble Pro. However, this is an ACR forum and I would expect that ACR is the preferred raw converter of those who frequent this forum.
After expending this much effort on the post, I hope to get some helpful feedback.

Lightroom Noise reduction versus DPP

I have been playing with DPP for al little while because the EOS 50d wasn't supported until a few days ago. DPP has some kind of intelligent support of NR depending on the ISO of the photo. If I analyzed it whell it is supporting the NR level of the camera itself.
Is it possible to do this kind of NR in Lightroom also?
I know I can make defaults for an ISO level, but it would be very nice if Lightroom is able to get this kind of information from te RAW file. The same accounts for the sharpening, but this might be tricky.
Regards,
Olaf.

>I read on the internet that Canon and Nikon don't want to share that kind of information. Stupid! They don't sell software, so it shouldn't matter to open the information of their RAW files.
Well Nikon sells their Capture NX software. They don't give it away with their cameras (except for some short running promotions) like Canon does.I do believe Canon charges for updates. You would think that it would be in the camera maker's best interest to make their files as readible by anybody as possible as it makes their cameras more attractive to buyers, but they have a very strange worldview in which the RAW files are their files instead of the photographer's and that their software is by definition better in processing their files than any third party because they know all the secrets. They actually say stuff like that! Quite astonishing. The only thing we can do is to tell them what we think of that bull.
>Lightroom doesn't apply any luminance nr by default. This also accounts for the higher ISO levels?
Even at zero there is some luminance NR I think. There is also noise reduction and sharpening inherent to the tuning of the demosaicing algorithm. I think the tuning between more sharpness and less noise is dependent on ISO.
>Are there any more options which are depending on the ISO of the photo by default?
Where do you get this kind of information? I can't find any about this in the online help of Lightroom.
I think some intricacies in the color rendering also respond to this but that's probably the extent of it. Thomas Knoll (check the credits in Lightroom to see who that is) and others on the Lightroom/ACR teams have posted on this forum about these things as well as some people in the know. So I 'm giving you second-hand info here but you should be able to look back on this by searching for posts by Thomas and others. Doing this is very instructive anyway regardless of the subject.

Noise reduction not showing in develop module

I have noticed today that when I am reducing the noise in the develop module, the changes are not being represented on the image I am working with, except in the top left hand corner... too small for me to see clearly. But when I switch to Library module, the changes have indeed taken place. Has anyone experienced this? I need a fix because it's a bad guessing game adjusting my slider without seeing results until I switch modules. Haven't had this problem before. A lot of my work is turning out tooooo smooth!! I appreciate any help I can get with this.

Without question noise reduction and sharpening should only be adjusted at 100% view magnification. Hopefully the OP understands why now.
I tried viewing both 21Mp and 6Mp RAW images at 'Fit' magnification in the Develop module on my office system:
Vista Home Premium SP2 64bit
Lightroom 3.4.1
1280 x 1024 Monitor (Calibrated with i1 Display 2)
The 'Fit' size image on my 1,280 x1024 display with side panels up is 650 x 430. I increased the side panels for a 400 x 266 picture size, and tried it with side panels off for a 1,000 x 666 picture size – Noise reduction and sharpening is clearly applied in the Develop module for all of three view magnification sizes!
I would be interested for others to try this and report what they are seeing. I used a High ISO 128,000 RAW image so I could easily see the affect of noise reduction and sharpening controls at the 'Fit' magnification. If you don't see any change, try moving the Sharpening Amount and Luminance controls to 100 and then down to 0.
Note to the OP – Regardless of what you are seeing at 'Fit' view size, only adjust Sharpening and Noise Reduction at 100%. I'm just suggesting that you may in fact have a problem with your system. What Camera and file type are you using, LR version, operating system, and monitor(s)?

Noise Reduction and RAW

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