Softproofing

Question: When an image contains out-of-Gamut colours shown by the Gamut warning (Ctl+Shift+Y), what is the relevance of the colour that is displayed on the screen when the Gamut warning is turned off, but softproofing is turned on? Are we seeing a colour that has been shifted into the printable colourspace?
I don't quite understand why experts who use softproofing should deliberately target out-of-gamut colours with a hue/lightness/saturation adjustment layer to bring parts of the image back into printable gamut. Given that the original colours are unprintable, why not just accept the colour displayed when softproofing is turned on? It seems to me that between them, Photoshop and the printer software are pretty good at choosing a printable colour that is pretty close to the intended colour.
The only reason I can think that these colours might be targetted seperately is because the user prefers a different in-gamut colour than that selected by Photoshop.
Perhaps someone could tell me where my thinking is going wrong here.

I think you're well on track in your thinking.
You might, for example, choose a desaturated color in which all color channels carry some luminance data vs. a more saturated color in which one or more of the channels is bottomed-out to black.
I have little experience in using imagery containing out-of-gamut colors on various equipment because when editing I choose to do just what I described above and work in the sRGB color space, staying within gamut during my editing. SRGB is narrow enough that pretty much everything supports it entirely. It turns out that such imagery suits all my needs fine, but may not be sufficient for the needs of others. I know this: It avoids some headaches.
-Noel

Similar Messages

I am trying to softproof an image using a CMYK .icc file. I sent an image from LR 5 to PS CC 2014, opened the Camera Raw FIlter, but the hyperlink to access workflow is not showing up in the CR dialogue box... Any ideas why this might be?

I am trying to softproof an image using a CMYK .icc file. I sent an image from LR 5 to PS CC 2014, opened the Camera Raw FIlter, but the hyperlink to access workflow is not showing up in the CR dialogue box... Any ideas why this might be?

I am trying to softproof an image using a CMYK .icc file. I sent an image from LR 5 to PS CC 2014, opened the Camera Raw FIlter, but the hyperlink to access workflow is not showing up in the CR dialogue box... Any ideas why this might be?

Serious issue w/LR5.3: Softproof is invisible!

Hello all,
I've just noticed that I have a really strange problem with soft proofing in Lightroom 5.3. I can activate it and select all the ICC profiles that are installed on my system, choose between relative/perceptive/show paper color, and the histogram changes accordingly, just like it is supposed to do. Unfortunately, the image preview does not! The displayed colors remain the same!
I have checked this with several files and made screenshots to compare them for differences - there really are none.
Next thing I tried was this: Buy a brand new SSD, install Windows 7 SP1 64bit, install all Updates, install the latest AMD Catalyst pack, install Lightroom 5.3, then try again. The result is basically the same, with one small difference: When I activate the softproof now, I have a small chance to see the "corrected" preview, however it'll be gone as soon as I zoom in, for example. Switching between relative/perceptive/show paper color yields wildly different results each time, ranging from no change over a slight change to a visible change in a totally non-predictable manner. This works best with zoom to fit; at 100% zoom there's mostly no visible change, and it's gone again as soon as I zoom in or out.
I'm running an Intel Core2 Duo E7300 on a Gigabyte GA-EP45UD3 with 4GB of RAM, Windows 7 Pro x64 SP1 + current updates, Crucial M500 SSD, SAPPHIRE HD 7750 ULTIMATE with the latest Catalyst installed.
System Information is this:
Version von Lightroom: 5.3 [938183]
Betriebssystem: Windows 7 Business Edition
Version: 6.1 [7601]
Anwendungsarchitektur: x64
Systemarchitektur: x64
Anzahl logischer Prozessoren: 2
Prozessorgeschwindigkeit: 2,6 GHz
Integrierter Speicher: 4094,4 MB
Für Lightroom verfügbarer phys. Speicher: 4094,4 MB
Von Lightroom verwendeter phys. Speicher: 285,9 MB (6,9%)
Von Lightroom verwendeter virtueller Speicher: 249,5 MB
Cache-Speichergröße: 39,6 MB
Maximale Anzahl Threads, die Camera Raw verwendet: 2
DPI-Einstellung des Systems: 96 DPI
Desktop-Komposition aktiviert: Nein
Monitore/Anzeigegeräte: 1) 1280x1024
Anwendungsordner: C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 5.3
Bibliothekspfad: C:\Users\root\Pictures\Lightroom\Lightroom 5 Catalog.lrcat
Einstellungen-Ordner: C:\Users\root\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\Lightroom
Installierte Zusatzmodule:
1) Behance
2) Canon Tether-Zusatzmodul
3) Facebook
4) Flickr
5) Leica Tether-Zusatzmodul
6) Nikon Tether-Zusatzmodul
Config.lua-Flags: None
Adapter Nr. 1: Anbieter : 1002
    Gerät : 683f
    Subsystem : e213174b
    Version : 0
    Grafikspeicher : 1010
AudioDeviceIOBlockSize: 1024
AudioDeviceName: Lautsprecher (Juli@ Audio)
AudioDeviceNumberOfChannels: 2
AudioDeviceSampleRate: 44100
Build: Uninitialized
CardID: 26687
Direct2DEnabled: false
GPUDevice: D3D
MaxTexture2DSize: 8192
OGLEnabled: true
Renderer: AMD Radeon HD 7700 Series
ShaderModel: 11.1
Vendor: AMD
VendorID: 4098
Version: 1002:683f:e213174b:0000
The newly set up system is totally clean, I didn't transfer one single file from my old system yet, so there's no old catalog here now. I simply got myself an ICC profile from Saal Digital and a monochrome JPG from the internet for testing purposes, but to no avail, like I said above.
I have also tested several ICC profiles which work OK in other programs, so I won't blame them. Like I said, the histogram changes accordingly, i.e. it shows a noticeable color cast for monochrome images with a print profile, but only in the histogram and not the image itself.
My monitor is not calibrated and using the Win7 system standard color management. I did try some monitor profiles from the internet that changed the color rendition of the monitor but didn't make any difference in Lightroom.
Any ideas what might be the culprit here? Or what else I should try - maybe a new graphics card?
Regards,
Lasse

First, ignore the histogram of the scan and all that. Too many variables in the process (scanning) to make a conclusion.
You're probably right about too many variables, but the scan resembles what I actually see on the paper quite nicely. The print definitely has a color cast, which is easily recognised when I put it next to a print done with my monochrome laser, which obviously isn't able to produce a color cast.
4. How you view the image is critical, especially if the papers are high in OBAs. The Lightsource can produce what appears as a color cast. At the very least, examine the print under different illuminants. Do they look the same or do you see a color shift?
There's no metamerism here. It's simply a color cast due to the printer using colored inks instead of true black inks. I'm perfectly fine with that, however I'd like to move the color cast more into a sepia-like, "warm" direction, away from that violet-ish it is now. So my way of thinking is, If I see something violet-ish in the soft proof, I can tone the image in a way that is more appealing to me. Again: Is this a valid way of thinking? If it is, why doesn't it work the way I expect it to? If it is not, is there another way to achieve it?
1. Actual device has changed behavior and the profile isn't reflecting that correctly.
2. Actual ICC profile isn't all that good. Note too that these profiles have two tables. One affects the output, the other the soft proof. In a prefect world, they are in sync. But that isn't always the case.
3. The driver wasn't setup on the Epson for the best neutral process (Advanced B&W) and with that process, ICC profiles are out of the loop anyway. That's a proprietary process and is really the best way to produce (if so set) pretty dead nuts neutral output from this printer.
To me this would seem plausible if the soft proof and the final print would be "a little off". Now the soft proof is totally off from the print, since it's basically like the original without any proof.
And then there's the histogram.
Please do the following test:
Fill an image with RGB 128,128,128. Look at it in Lightroom with activated soft proof, Relative, simulate paper & ink disabled, using the pearl profile. Note how the histogram changes. Now hover the mouse over the image and note the values below the histogram: In my case they read RGB 135,132,142, while the image itself still shows 128,128,128. You can check that with a screenshot. Now fill the image with the shown 135,132,142 and note the color cast. I didn't test it yet, but I'd bet that Saal's printer would not be able to print a neutral middle grey but something like what you see on screen with the 135,132,142 instead!
Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to act stupid; I simply don't get it and am desperately trying to understand what's wrong here. Why does Lightroom "measure" 135,132,142 but continue to display 128,128,128?

Softproof in Lightroom different from Photoshop

Hi all, I've just recieved a print from Photobox. It looks ace, except for a big band in the sky graduation. Stupidly I hadn't looked on the web site to see if they had a colour profile before sending . As it happens they do, and softproofing the image in Photoshop CS5.1 I can see the same band. However I work in Lightroom (4), so wanted to make any changes there, but when I turn on soft proofing with the same colour profile I get a completely different result, and one that doesn't match the print. Am I doing something wrong? Any help would be much appreciated.
Jez
Here's a comparison:
Lightroom:
Photoshop:

Leaving soft proof out of it for now, do you see any differences between Lr and Ps with the same image? They should be absolutely identical, since they're both fully color managed and convert from source profile to monitor profile.
So next question then becomes if your monitor is calibrated and how? Recalibrating is always the first step in troubleshooting.
Differences can happen if there's a problem with either profile (source or monitor). This is because the source is different. In Lightroom it's linear gamma ProPhoto, in Photoshop it's the document profile whatever it is (sRGB, Adobe RGB, ProPhoto). So the conversion itself, or transform as some like to call it, is different.
By extension I suppose it could also happen if there's a problem with the proof profile. Try a different one.
BTW sky blue is a very sensitive color to profile issues, and problems are easily seen there. It's usually very near the gamut boundary in both sRGB, Adobe RGB and monitor profiles, with the red channel very near zero. So the exact position of the red primary (which varies a lot between most monitors on one hand and sRGB or Adobe RGB on the other) makes an obvious difference.

Will I always get color discrepancies when lab printing images softproofed on a 75% on AdobeRGB monitor?

Hi,
I am struggling to get printed output from a professional printing service to match what I see when I softproof on my monitor. The printed image always looks considerably more green and warm, although whites are ok. Blue skies tend to get warm greenish. The printed image often looks like a warm instagram filter had been applied.
I have two (different generation) Dell U2412M monitors (Dell U2412M = Standard gamut = 71% NTSC, 74.3% Adobe RGB, 95.8% sRGB).
These are the steps I have taken to try to achieve color consistency between monitor and print:
I have calibrated and profiled with a Spyder 3 Express using BasICColor Display 5 software, previously also used the Datacolor software that came with the calibrator. After this, what I see on my monitor "looks normal" (skin tones, landscapes etc.)
I shoot RAW with a Sony NEX6, develop in Lightroom 4 using ProPhoto 16 bit color space.
I softproof in Lightroom using an ICC file provided by the printing service.
I use Lightroom to print to file tagging it with AdobeRGB profile. Either as TIFF or as JPG 100%.
I print with the direction to the printer to "not make any auto corrections to my file".
I have Windows 7 64bit.
I thought this would mean that I would get - probably not perfect - but at least a very strong match between softproof and printed image. But I do not.
Are these rather strong color discrepancies to be expected given my hardware?
Is my Spyder broken (it's out of warranty)?
Or is my workflow erroneous?

Guermantes wrote:
I am struggling to get printed output from a professional printing service to match what I see when I softproof on my monitor. The printed image always looks considerably more green and warm, although whites are ok. Blue skies tend to get warm greenish. The printed image often looks like a warm instagram filter had been applied.
I have calibrated and profiled with a Spyder 3 Express using BasICColor Display 5 software, previously also used the Datacolor software that came with the calibrator. After this, what I see on my monitor "looks normal" (skin tones, landscapes etc.)
Could be the calibration targets (how you asked to celibate white point etc). Could be the output. Could be the ICC Profile. Could be your file. You have to decide which is which.
Start here: Why Are My Prints Too Dark
Then download a good color reference file like this one: http://www.digitaldog.net/files/2014PrinterTestFileFlat.tif.zip
Soft proof and see if any green or odd color cast appear. If so, probably the profile but use it and have a print made. The output should look good (neutral in neutrals, reds that don't appear yellowish etc).
Generally speaking, if you send Adobe RGB (1998) and the other side assumes it is sRGB, you will end up with desaturated colors. This isn't the fault of Adobe RGB but rather assuming that data is sRGB which it isn't.

Strange behaviour softproof and Gamut warning

When I have a softproof selected (using Relative Colormetric ; Blackpoint Compensation and Simulated paper color) I am seeing a difference in the soft proof when I toggle the gamut warning on and off.
This is not due to out of gamut colors which I have set to show up as a 100% medium gray.
What I am seeing is a difference in the shadow detail on the softproof, when I have the gamut warning on or off. More detail with it off and less with it on. I have tried different printer profiles and see the same effect.
I had not noticed this before, but today I was printing some sunset pictures and having trouble getting the shadow detail to match on screen and in print. My expectation of toggling the gamut warning is that it would only highlight (in gray) the out of gamut colors and have no impact on other parts of the picture. Incidentaly - the view with gamut warning "on" appears to match the print correctly.
I am using CS5 on Windows 32bit. Am I doing something wrong, or have I misunderstood the gamut warning?
Dave

Noel,
Thank you - you are spot on - that did get round the issue.
I read through your thread and can see how the banding issue you described would impact. The dark areas in my pictures tended to be shades of gray and when softproofing using simulate Paper Color went a slightly lighter shade (with banding in those areas). I tried this on a gray ramp and the problem is very visible (as it was in your thread).
It is puzzling as to why turning gamut warning on and off altered the banding but hopefully if Chris or his colleagues see this thread it may help them locate the root cause of the problem.
Thanks again
Dave

Missing warnings while using softproofing ?

First, congratulations for all the new or enhanced features !
Especially the softproofing function is great : the histogramm is now showing what is happening in the destination color space.
My question is about the warnings on the image while using softproofing : after activating both monitor and destination warnings, and evenif my image is voluntarily completly blown up with highlights, i see very few warnings on the image.
Am i doing something wrong or the warning function is not working well ?
Charles, France

I suspect but could be totally off, that a single color channel will not cause the OOG overlay. You should be able to see this anyway in the normal Histogram (in this case, a blue spike on the end of the Histogram). Again, going out on a limb, I suspect that the profile has to be used to tell LR that all three channels fall outside of gamut, in other words, this isn’t a channel by channel OOG but the entire group. Maybe someone from Adobe can comment.
I can get the OOG warning to show up with only one or two channels saturating. It appears to have been done correctly. See the screenshot below. The channel info shows only red saturating at 255 in the red-masked OOG area
Now I can say that I think there is a zoom bug in terms of the OOG in that I’ve seen some overlay colors appear or disappear based on the zoom ratio. Even saw this in Julieanne’s video demo. So you may want to zoom in at 100% (1:1) to get a more accurate OOG preview.
I am not so sure whether that is a bug or simply a cause of how the Develop preview is generated. LR has to render a low resolution preview and inevitably that involves some downscaling and resharpening (LR has been doing some sharpening on the develop preview for a while now). It is possible that if you are on the edge of being out of gamut, the lower resolution preview can get pushed out of gamut by the sharpening and perhaps by noisy data that is not smoothed away by the noise reduction that would happen at 1:1 but doesn't happen the same way zoomed out at fit or fill.
P.S. as we found in the thread linked above there are some minor bugs in the softproof notably with proofing for sRGB. So I wouldn't trust it too much yet and just look at it as a preview of how it might or will be implemented in the release.

Where do I save other ICC Profiles so I can use them in softproofing in Lightroom 4?

I am starting to use an online photo printing service and the photos are not an accurate representation of what I see on the screen so I want to download their color profiles which are specific to their printers and various papers. Where do I save the files so Lightroom4 can access them in softproofing?

On a mac, it's Library/ColorSync/Profiles either in the root or user level (under 10.7, that folder is hidden)**
**In the Finder, choose Go > Go To Folder.
In the Go To Folder dialog, type Sudo ~/Library Click Go.
OR
This method makes the user library folder permanently visible but requires the use of Terminal (not for the novice user):
Launch Terminal from the Utilities folder.
In Terminal type the following command and type Return key:
1. chflags nohidden ~/Library
Enter administrator password and then type Return key.
Type Exit and quit Terminal.

Softproof and color profiles

Not all my correct installed color profiles are available in the softproof-menu 'Profile' in the development module. Why not? And how can I change that?
Thanks.

Indeed only the CMYK and lab-profiles are missing.
Thanks for your answer.

Cannot use Softproofing and cannot export to desktop

I upgraded to LR5....but it won't export photos to my desktop...and softproofing doesn't work!!! I used both on LR 4. But I need help to fix this.
Message was edited by: Brett N

What happens when you try to use either of these features?

Prints and SoftProofs from Aperture and PS look different?

I'm using the HP Designjet 90 and there is something strange.
There is significant difference between soft-proof in Aperture and PS of the same image (exported as .psd from Aperture). In Aperture the image has some blue/cyan cast and there is no such a problem in PS Softproof.
Prints are consistent with softproofs - from Aperture it looks blueish and more warm from PS.
Why there is such a difference?

... and I'm applying the same profile in both applications

Softproofing to sRGB and aRGB clips the darkest tones into pure black

When I am going through RAW files from my Canon cameras (1Ds MkIII and 6D) I edit them in the develop module and then convert to aRGB or sRGB depending on the output media. They look good in aRGB and sRGB too when I take into account the limitations of sRGB.
---> However, if I try the softproof to aRGB or sRGB the resulting proof crushes dark tones into solid black. Why is this when the actual conversions are way better? The actual conversions look good in both LR and PS CS5.
I have also noticed that when I upload images to my online galleries and view them with Firefox (latest version and color management enabled for all rendered graphics) they appear darker in the darkest tones than what they appear in LR. What gives?
I would really appreciate all advice!
Further info:
I am using LR 5.3, no updates suggested by the software
Windows 8.1 clean install
The computer is a new one, fast processor, 32 gigs ram etc.
Eizo CX270 hardware calibrated (16-bit internal LUT) with the Spyder 4 in ColorNavigator 6 software.
The issue has always been like this

Thanks a million Andrew! I was about to go crazy with the soft proof feature. I'll just forget it and let the conversion take its course. Prints in good print quality magazines have been spot on, which is the most important thing.
The browser test you suggested above was a success. I have tried it before and my issue with the darkest tones in the browser remains the same whether I enable v4 profiles or not. I think the Eizo Color Navigator produces v2 profiles but I am not sure. Just checked and it says under profile policy that the version is 2.2, tone curve is LUT and that "Reflect black level: yes".
The difference between the LR and the browser is relatively small but clear. I even made a little test pattern to see it better:
I hope it displays OK and has the tag still embedded. In lightroom I can see all the steps. When I view the same pic on my website, I can only barely see the difference between 4 and 6:
http://jari.pic.fi/kuvat/dpreview/FF_rendering_test/Black_level_final_sRGB_TAGGED.jpg
This has left me puzzled for a long time. Thanks for any further ideas!
ps. I too have noticed that only the develop module is accurate along with opening the image in Photoshop. The preview can be horrendous and the Bridge preview can be a mess too. Best seen with gradients posterizing.
pps: here's another link to the test pattern if the one above is not working for you: http://jari.pic.fi/kuvat/dpreview/FF_rendering_test/Black_level_final_sRGB_TAGGED.jpg/_ful l.jpg

Major color shifts during softproofing in CS4

Hi All,
I'm new here and looking for some help. I'm running CS4 on MacOS 10.5.8. I'm not new to color management but am having a problem with a particular output profile that's driving me nuts.
I usually print at home, and get fantastic results using my home work-flow (and yes, my monitor is calibrated) but recently decided to try my local Costco for printing.
My working space is adobeRGB--I work on my file, save a copy as a tiff and then softproof using the Nortisu profile provided by Dry Creek photo for my local Costco. After soft proofing, I flatten, crop, resize and sharpen and then convert to the image to the Costco profile without the embedded colorspace.
My issue is when I softproof with one image, I get a major color shift--if there's a way to post the file, I'd be happy too. It turns a lime green frog into a greenish mustard color and I can't recover the color with any amount of adjustment (primarily with selective color channels with hue/saturation and curves layers). Most of my other photos have very subtle shifts in contrast and brightness, but no major color shifts.
Any ideas--I know they are using Fuji Crystal Archive paper and an 80,000 dollar Noritsu printer so I wouldn't think I would have huge out of gamut issues, but maybe that's the case?
Thanks for your help and if there's a way to attach the original file so people can see the softproof themselves, let me know.
Cheers,
Gabriel.

Tai Lao,
I'm confused--I am embedding the aRGB file into my original file. Next I am working on a copy of that image which I soft proof with the Costco Noritsu profile. Only after I have worked on the color shifted image to I convert the profile from aRGB to the Costo profile, so at no point is there no embedded profile in the actual file. Now, I did do an out of gamut check and lo and behold, the lime green (and that's the best discription of the frog's overall color) was completely out of gamut...what strikes me is that the color shift is so completely extreme!
Anyway, I'll have to try the color swatch option to choose an in gamut color which I hope closely resembles the color seen in the aRGB image...my question now is how do I view the color swatch!?
Here's another question--I assumed that sRGB has a narrower gamut than the printers profile, yet when I soft proof the aRGB embedded image using sRGB the color shift is not nearly as extreme. That's why I feel like something funky is going on using the costco Profile (which is downloaded from Dry Creek to answer someone elses question). Why would a narrower color space, such as sRGB, retain more of the file's original color than a wider color space, like the Costco Noritsu profile?
OK...thanks for everyone's help again.
Gabriel.

Softproofing with LR2 and ...............

How to softproof with LR2?
Just connect up two Eizo CG monitors (211 and 210 for me) and use the supplied ColorNavigator 5.1 with an i1 Photo or Display (or others) to profile one of them to your liking, and the other to the paper you are going to print on. CN5 allows you to measure the white point and brightness of the paper, and then calibrates it and profiles it appropriately, storing the calibration data in the two monitors (not affecting your graphics card).
So on your main monitor you have your normal calibration/profile, and on the second one the softproof calibration/profile!
Any flaws in that? It seems to work with the one paper I've tried. An expensive solution maybe, but a solution nonetheless?
Bob Frost.

Yeah, check the LR2 forum. You can actually fairly easily softproof in LR2 beta by saving as a jpeg file in the profile and rendering intent you want and then opening the exported jpeg in a color managed app (preview, Photoshop, Safari, Firefox 3 with the secret setting enabled etc.). Not as direct as doing it in the software or as you do by emulating the paper profile in the monitor but will work in a pinch.

Softproofing won't work Lightroom 4.1

I upgraded to Lightroom 4.1 yesterday and now softproofing won't work. It just shows a 50% gray block where the softproof picture should be. It worked OK in version 4.0. What happened?

I didn't think about switching profiles but just did based on your questions. It worked. When I switched back to the profile that didn't work, it also worked. Everything looks OK now. I don't know what happened but thanks for your response. If I have any other problems, I'll let you know.
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 10:53:58 -0600
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Softproofing won't work Lightroom 4.1
    Re: Softproofing won't work Lightroom 4.1
    created by Andrew Rodney in Photoshop Lightroom - View the full discussion
Can you describe the profile you are trying to use? Where did it come from? What OS? Does this occur with all profiles or only this one?
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Softproofing

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