Thermocouple Measurement

I have a PXI 1031 Chassis that has a type 4060 DMM installed. I was
looking thru the LabVIEW VIs and found a couple that convert
measurements to temperature from thermocouple voltages. My question is
this: Do I need another card or other hardware to record temperature
measurements from a bare thermocouple, or can I do it with the DMM.
>From my understanding, all thermocouples are just dissimilar metals
that produce a small potential when heat is applied. Assuming I can get
the accuracy of voltage measurement (and low noise), are there examples
of DMM thermocouple readers in LabVIEW?

Hello B-Rad.  You can build a really cool thermocouple measurement system by adding in a high power switch.  Please refer to http://zone.ni.com/devzone/cda/tut/p/id/3778#2 for more information.  This article has a ton of information about measuring thermocouples with a switch and DMM. 
Brian

Similar Messages

  • Type C thermocouple measurement and compesation with DAQmx

    Need to make type C thermocouple measurment using DAQmx. Analog thermocouple channel configuration VI has spot for custom scales in the units box but nowhere to wire the scale. Want to use cold junction compensation so is the only option to use a voltage input then subtract the cold junction voltage and then run that value through a conversion formula?

    That does not work. The program seems to already try and apply a scale since I get an error from start task that says the prescaled units are already Deg C, and the scale of course goes from volts to degrees. When I try to change the custom scale name after start task I get an error that says the units are invalid for this measurement type. So there seems to be some coding that won't allow you to replace the scale for a thermocouple measurement. I'll probably have to take voltage readings and apply the scale after I subtract the junction value which is unfortunate I have to do things that way.

  • Thermocouple Measurements using an RTD for CJC

    I am using an SCXI 1001 chassis with SCXI 1102 cards attached to TBX 1303 units and also SCXI 1121 cards attached to TBX 1328 units. I need to measure a number of K and T typre thermocouples in this system (using 1102 cards), and was hoping to use a PT100 RTD for my Cold Junction Compensation. Is it possible to achieve this by using the excitation current from an 1121 card and measuring the RTD value with the 1102 cards. It seems that when trying to select the CJC source in Max in the 1102 setup screen, there is no capacity for reading values from cards other than 1102 cards i.e I can't read the 1121 values.
    What is the best way to achieve this using the setup I have?

    James,
    On the virtual channels of SCXI 1102 MAX configuration if you have not set-up any additional channels at this point then the CJC selection will only offer the internal Thermistor for it's CJC reference or a user value defined one. If you wish to use a PT100 you will need to set this up in MAX first using the Virtual Channels. Once you have that working go back to the SCXI 1102 and configure the CJC reference as User Defined, you should then be able to use the PT100 channel that you have just created.
    Side note: The 1102 has been designed to thermocouple measurements and the internal CJC should be accurate enough for general measurements.
    Kind regards
    Joe
    NI-UK

  • Noise in thermocouple measurement using PCI-6024E DAQ card

    I am using a PCI-6024E DAQ card for thermocouple(TC) measurement. The
    TC is installed in the mold cavity of an injection molding (IM)
    machine. The leads from the TC are connected to the DAQ card using a
    CB-68LP board. I made a  temperature mesurment task in LabView 7.0
    with the two leads from TC as differential inputs and used CJC value of
    25 deg C.
    The problem is that when the IM machine is OFF, I get a reasonable temp
    reading with some slight noise but as soon as I turn ON the IM machine,
    the temp readings go wild with a lot of variations around the mean
    value. The temp values also don't go to higher values when the TC is in
    contact with the molten plastic in the IM machine.
    Do I need to ground something here or put a resistor in the I/O board?
    BTW the IM machine is grounded and the TC give correct temp values when
    connected to a hand-held temp reader.
    Any help will be highly appreciated.

    Hello  Aftab,
    Looks like you need to use bias resistors to reduce the noise. Check out the following tutorial for more information about how to use bias resistors.

  • Thermocouple measurement directly into USB DAQ

    hi , with regards to the above matter..
    i'm having complications using the DAQ to take measurement directly from the thermocouple..
    im currently using the acq thermocouple sample.vi to take the temperature reading..
    but what does the cold junction constant means ?
    i am unable to figure out what it implies
    using the default settings of constant and 25 degree CJC value
    the temeprature reading fluctuates a lot ranging from negative few thousdand degrees to slightly above 200 plus degrees..
    thanks in advance

    The 6008 has 12 bit resolution and a range of +/- 1 volt, this means the smallest change in voltage that it will measure is about 0.048 Volts.  The sensitivity of a K-type thermocouple is 41 µV/°C this means that you will only be able to measure a change of temperature that is about 10 °C.  Also, if you have any noise in your setup it will make it look like the temperature is jumping around in huge increments.  I dont know that this is your problem but it is definitely something to keep in mind.
    CLA, CLED, CTD,CPI, LabVIEW Champion
    Platinum Alliance Partner
    Senior Engineer
    Using LV 2013, 2012
    Don't forget Kudos for Good Answers, and Mark a solution if your problem is solved.

  • Thermocouple measurements that after a period of time suddenly go bad

    Good Afternoon,
    I originally posted this on the multifunction DAQ thread but haven't gotten any response. I don't think the problem is software but...
    I'm making long term temperature measurements using a PCI6040E, SCXI1001, SCXI1102 32-channel thermocouple amp and a SCXI1303 isothermal block. These are making readings using J type t'couples. My customer's problem is that the measurements will be fine for a period of time (minutes, several hours) and then suddenly some channels will start giving really bogus temperatures, i.e.: -270 DegC vs the more realistic 35 DegC. I came in the last time it was doing this and when I went down into the code to my DAQ portion the DAQmx Read vi, set as analog, temperature, J type measurement was returning those numbers for the offending channels. Some were still giving valid numbers while others were giving the weird numbers and when a Fluke meter was used to measure the output of the "bad T'couple" it too was giving valid numbers. When I stop the LabVIEW program and go into DAQmx to try and troubleshoot it, there usually seems to be no problem. If I restart the LabVIEW program there also seems to be no problem, but when there is those numbers are coming out of the lowest level of code that I have programmed (the standard DAQmx read). I'm suspecting something "electromechanical" like connectors in/on the SCXI chassis, but the fact that it goes away when software is restarted is confusing me, as well as making troubleshooting difficult.
    Thanks,
    Putnam Monroe
    Putnam
    Certified LabVIEW Developer
    Senior Test Engineer
    Currently using LV 6.1-LabVIEW 2012, RT8.5
    LabVIEW Champion

    Like I said, you have a bear of a problem.
    bad values at the lowest level I can access (in the LabVIEW program the actual DAQmx read, or running test panels in MAX).
    That pretty much eliminates your LabVIEW code.
    seem to remain bad until the SCXI-1001 chassis is reset
    What exactly do you mean by "chassis is reset"? (I'm not a SCXI expert, but I do have a SCXI-1000 chassis here). There is no reset button. It's not hooked up at the moment, so I can't tell if there's a software "reset" function.
    Do you mean power Off & On ?
    Do you mean a reset button (maybe the 1001 has one, I don't know).
    Do you mean a software reset from LabVIEW / Max ?
    I don't see how any channel could hang up at 25°C and stay, that's not likely the top or bottom end of your TC range.
    Possibly some sample/hold or track/hold amplifier quits sampling, and stays holding.
    It IS about room temperature, I wonder if your CJC channel is somehow being read instead?
    Ground loops would not likely be the problem, unless there's something else happening when the channels fail (like a welder firing). Even then, it's not likely that a rest would fix that.
    My first thought would be to disassemble the SCXI stuff, and look for the usual suspects: dirty connectors, chips not in sockets, loose screw terminals, broken wires. Sounds like hardware to me.
    Steve Bird
    Culverson Software - Elegant software that is a pleasure to use.
    Culverson.com
    Blog for (mostly LabVIEW) programmers: Tips And Tricks

  • Thermocouple Measurements on TBX-68T with PCI-4351

    I have set up Traditional NIDAQ Virtual Channels for 2 different thermocouples. In a simple program, I wire each channel to AI Sample Channel.vi and get the temperature reading. This works fine. However, when I do this inside of a larger code where I am also reading voltage measurements on my PCI-4351 (using 435xFast.vi which I downloaded), the first thermocouple I read is always giving an erroneous error. Do I have to reset the board in some way before I take the temperature readings?

    I've got just a few questions for you:
    1. Are you seeing a large negative value anywhere else other than when you run your particular vi as a subvi? Test panels in MAX? Other example programs?
    2. Do you have the latest drivers for your application? NI-DMM 2.3.1? NI-DAQ 7.3.1? NI-435x 1.1?
    3. Have you tried reseting the board in MAX and then running your application? If this takes care of that first bad sample, you could try calling Reset Device in the Traditional DAQ function palette before starting your acquisition.
    Please let me know what you can. Have a great Thanksgiving!
    Logan S.

  • Thermocouple Measurement Error

    I'm working on a DAQ system that has 32 analog and 32 thermocouple channels.  The analog channels work fine, but the thermocouples are giving us a weird "stairstepping" effect.  As can be in the attached chart of a sample dataset, the thermocouple readings remain steady for a short
    time (with noise and sometimes a slight slope) and then jump to another value. 
    After the reading stairsteps to the new value, it will stay around that
    reading for a short time until it jumps again.  In working on this problem we’ve
    come up with the following:
    The effect seems follow the trend of
    what the temperature is doing, it just doesn’t read the right temperature at all
    times.  Drawing a line between the stairstep points would probably give us what
    the temperature profile is actually like.
    The effect only happens on the
    thermocouple data, and the time delay between stairsteps is much longer than our data rate.
    Connecting a thermocouple to all 32
    channels did not do anything to correct this
    effect.  We see the stairstepping no matter how many of the channels we leave floating.
    If we assume that it’s not a
    software issue, what would the next step be in troubleshooting?  For your
    reference, we’re using a SCXI-1600 USB device connected to an 1101-C
    thermocouple box.  Any help you can offer would be
    appreciated.
    Attachments:
    Stairstep.JPG ‏41 KB

    HI cm_opi,
           I'm quite curious as to what you sampling rate is, and what your number of samples is- could you please post those numbers?   Another question I have is, what kinds of thermocouples are you using?  Have you tried using any different thermocouples.  Or, is it possible for you to try out a different terminal block with the thermocouples you have?  Please let  me know, thanks!  
    aNItaB
    Applications Engineer
    National Instruments
    Digital Multimeters

  • Thermocouple measurment using NI 9219

    I have a NI 9219 and an omega j type thermocouple,
    When i connect the thermocouple to NI9219 terminal 4 and 6 ( positive and negative terminals) and open up Signal express I don't see the voltage change! is there something else that i need to do before i can see the measurments?

    chrisger wrote:
    you have to use terminals 4 and 5 for thermocouples. See page 11 on the user manual: http://www.ni.com/pdf/manuals/372407a.pdf
    That is correct. In my experience (the little there is), thermocouples are almost always in adjacent terminals 
    Message Edited by Cory K on 01-02-2009 10:41 AM
    Cory K

  • How to measure thermocouple in lab view and save the data..

    hi.. i am using my DAQ with 2 analog channels.. i need to acquire signal from thermo couple i have T type thermo couple with brown jacket.. i have connected the thermocoupe in ai0.. and i selected the thermocouple type... when i select the built in option.. it shows some error.. then if i use cjc value as constant 25 its working.. but the signal acquired is not matching well.. it show huge variation.. some times it goes for -20 and maximum of 60 which is not possible at all...just in air medium i checked it... when i used infrared thermometer it shows around 24 C... kindly help me.. i have attached the screen shot of the block diagram panel... and acquired signal..
    Attachments:
    Doc1.docx ‏425 KB

    Hi,
    You hooked up to the analog inputs on your device correctly. Thermocouples measure the difference in temperature between the DAQ and the location where the wires are welded together. They need to be insulated thermally and electrically in-between. Thermocouples have very low response compared to the normal 10 volt DAQ range. Type T is only 43 uV/C (thats 0.000043V compared to 10 volts). To see if the thermocouple is working, you need to heat up the welded end. They measure 0 V when the welded end is at room temperature. Type T only goes up to a few hundred C, so be careful, but you can probably wave a lighter under it to see if it's working. You might try the audio in on your device. You don't need a high sampling rate and it may have a better amplifier and dynamic range.
    To get absolute temperature you need to offset the thermocouple reading from the DAQ temperature (room temp usually). You could do this by measuring it with your IR thermometer. Check into the NI 9211 and simliar which are much better suited to thermocouple measurements.
    Good luck!

  • Can the USB-9211 Thermocouple Input device measure voltages ?

    Can the USB-9211 be used to measure voltages ? It is designed for thermocouple measurements and its operating manual states there is a current source between its TC+ and TC- input terminals.
    What amount of current is flowing ? Does it depend on the selected thermocouple type ? Can the current level be controlled by sotware ?
    One application for me is to measure resistances of 1 ohm or less by measuring the voltage drop across the resistance induced by flowing a current through it. Might the 92111's current source be somehow used for this ?
    What is its peak to peak input noise ? Its specs say 1 uV rms.
    This is a delta-sigma converter. Is each successive measurement accurate or does some digital filtering have to be account for and thus it takes several readings for a signal change to become accurate ?

    The 9211 measures voltages between 0 and 80 mV only. The current source is only use to force a full scale input if an open thermocouple is connected and cannot be controlled by software. The input impedance of each channel between TC- and TC+ is 20M Ohm. However, the current that flows in the amplifier is very small, 50 nA.
    The main problem here is the fact that the current source is not controlled by the user. This means that connecting a resistor of 1 Ohm between TC- and TC+ would not just produce a voltage that maybe due to external exitation, but the internal source should also be taken into account. Since the user has control over it, it would be a guess work to try to make sense of any voltage value read in.
    its peak to peak input noise is 1 uV rms as indicated in the specs.
    So as long as the measurements allow for enough settling time (12S/s), each one is accurate.

  • I need a portable daq that can measure up to 15 thermocouples that is usb

    Hello, a friend of mine that has no experience with labview is asking me about what daq can he buy in order to have a portable thermocouple measuring system.  It has to be usb so he can take it along with him and his laptop and that he can connect up to 15 thermocouples.  I saw some usb based systems that are specificly for thermocuple measurement but only have 4 inputs.  Is there any usb daq that I could use for this application and do I have to additionaly cancel any unwanted noise via programming???
    Solved!
    Go to Solution.

    Hi, Indeed there's only a usb up to 4 channels to manage termocouples, this is the NI USB-9211A. But I can suggest you something else:
    1. You can buy a SCXI chassis and the Control Module USB NI-SCXI-1600. And using a module SCXI-1102 you can handle up to 32 thermocouples. These are the links:
    http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/en/nid/14235
    http://www.ni.com/pdf/products/us/4scxisc278_ETC_196.pdf
    2. Another PAC you can use is CompactDAQ along 4 modules NI 9211 (4 thermocouples each one)
    http://www.ni.com/dataacquisition/compactdaq/
    http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/en/nid/14165
    3. And one more solution, probably the cheapest. You can buy any USB M-Series DAQ card for example, NI USB-6251 with the SCB-68 terminal block. You can connect your 15 thermocouples to the analog inputs and use the cold-junction compensation built in the terminal block.
    I hope you'll find useful this information.
    Best regards.
    Arturo Gómez | Applications Engineering
    Certified LabVIEW Associated Developer
    National Instruments Latin America
    01-800-010-0793
    ni.com/support

  • Measuring temperature Via Thermocouple and USB-6009?

    Hi,
    I am trying to perform temperature measurements using a k type thermocouple and the USB-6009 DAQ. I tried to use the Cont Acq Thermocouple Sample.vi from LabVIEW's example list, but unfortunately I don't know how to fit my DAQ and thermocouple in the vi code. I don't know how to create a thermocouple temperature measurement channel or how to get all the channels in the task, etc.
    Any help is appreciated.
    Thanks.

    bilbeigg,
    It should be noted that the USB-6009 is not well suited for thermocouple measurements.  It has 14 bits of precision with a minimum input range of +/-1V, which means it can only detect a voltage change as small as about 122 microvolts.  This is much too large a change to get a good temperature reading with most types of thermocouples.  Here is a discussion thread on the same topic (Note that the USB-6008 and 6009 are very similar):
    http://forums.ni.com/ni/board/message?board.id=170&message.id=294080#M294080
    Here is a knowledgebase that explains what you are seeing:
    http://digital.ni.com/public.nsf/allkb/8166630BD6965EEA86256FDD0052E89C?OpenDocument
    Chris M
    Message Edited by CMal on 03-12-2008 12:17 PM

  • USB 6009 thermocouple noise

    I'm using NI-DAQmx 7.5, Labview 7.0, and a USB-6009.
    I'm trying to get a more accurate reading from my j-type thermocouple.  It is now distorted with noise and jumps rapidly +/- 20 degrees around room temp without any heat being applied.  When heat is applied, it climbs as it should but with the same variation.  I haven't moved to the labview side of it yet, I'm still trying to get a usable reading in MAX.  I have it wired as a differential input with a floating signal source.  I've installed 10k ohm resistors for bias current return as instructed.  Installing the resistors helped but still leaves me with the readings shown in the attached pic.  I've also tried grounding my USB 6009 with no results.  Please help. john
    Attachments:
    thermocouple reading.jpg ‏41 KB

    Hi John,
    What you are running into is a problem with the actual voltage resolution of your USB-6009.  This device has 14-bits of resolution over a minimum range of +/- 1V.  That means that the voltage resolution is (1 - (-1))V / (2^14) = 2V / (16384) = 122uV.  While this is an excellent resolution for such a low cost USB device, you will still notice problems when trying to make a thermocouple measurement.  The reason for that is that Thermocouples make a very small output voltage (see image below).
    Common thermocouple types have the following response:
    K type: 41 microVolts per degree Celsius
    J type: 56 microVolts per degree Celsius
    T type: 52 microVolts per degree Celsius
    There are a few options for ways to get around this limitation.
    Good: You could read the signal in as a voltage and then manually convert that voltage into a temperature.  This would be the least accurate method, but it should allow you to average out your signal and then use the Convert Thermocouple Reading.vi to show the voltage as a temperature.
    Better: If you want to keep using the USB-6009 to measure thermocouple, what you really need to do is first amplify your signal before you connect it with your device.  This should increase your resolution of the thermocouple allowing you to get more accurate temperature specs.  This will require some more complex programming to properly scale your measurements, but it will give you more accurate readings for relatively little cost.
    Best: Opt for getting a USB device that is designed for taking temperature measurements such as the USB-9211A.  This device would give you a voltage resolution of 160mV/2^24 = 9.54 nV!  That's over 12500x the resolution of the USB-6009 that you currently have.
    Hopefully the above information helps you better understand what is going on and why.  If you have any other questions feel free to post them here.
    Message Edited by Otis [DE] on 01-13-2006 11:37 AM
    Message Edited by Otis [DE] on 01-13-2006 11:38 AM
    Otis
    Training and Certification
    Product Support Engineer
    National Instruments
    Attachments:
    761029-Thermocouple_Voltages.GIF ‏10 KB

  • PXI 2527 & PXI 4071 -Questions about EMF considerations for high accuracy measurements and EMF calibration schemes?

    Hi!
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    While typing the question, I think I partially answered myself while cross-referencing NI documents... However a couple of questions remain:
    If I connect a DMM to a 2 by X arranged switch/mux, each DMM probe will see twice the listed internal "Differential thermal EMF" at a typical value of 2.5uV and a max value of less than 12uV (per relay). So the total effect on the DMM uncertainty caused by the switch EMF would be 2*2.5uV = 5uV? Or should these be added as RSS: = sqrt(2.5^2+2.5^2) since you can not know if the two relays have the same emf?
    Is there anything that can be done to characterize or account for this EMF (software cal, etc?)?
    For example, assuming the following:
    * Instruments and standards are powered on for several hours to allow thermal stability inside of the rack and enclosures
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    So, given the above assumptions, would it be correct to say that I could characterize the system EMF to within  8.5uV+- [700.16nV (DMM cal data) + 0.025ppm*15 (RMS noise, assuming aperture time of 100*100ms = 10s)] = +-[700.16nV+37.5nV] = +- 737.66nV? Or should the ppm accuracy uncertainties be RSS as such: 8.5uV +- sqrt[700.16nV^2 + 37.5nV^2] = 8.5uV +-701.16nV??
     As evident by my above line of thought, I am not at all sure how to properly sum the uncertainties (I think you always do RSS for uncertainties from different sources?) and more importantly, how to read and use the graph/table in the NI 4071 Specifications.pdf on page 3. What exactly does it entail to have an integration time larger than 1? Should I adjust the aperture time or would it be more accurate to just leave aperture at default (100ms for current range) and just average multiple readings, say average 10 to get a 10x aperture equivalent?
    The below text includes what was going to be the post until I think I answered myself. I left it in as it is relevant to the problem above and includes what I hope to be correct statements. If you are tired of reading now, just stop, if you are bored, feel free to comment on the below section as well.
    The problem I have is one of fully understanding part of this documenation. In particular, since a relay consists of (at least) 2 dissimilar metal junctions (as mentioned in the NI Switch help\Fundamentals\General Switching Considerations\Thermal EMF and Offset Voltage section) and because of the thermo-couple effect (Seebeck voltage), it seems that there would be an offset voltage generated inside each of the relays at the point of the junction. It refeers the "Thermocouple Measurements" section (in the same help document) for further details, but this is where my confusion starts to creep up.
    In equation (1) it gives the expression for determining E_EMF which for my application is what I care about, I think (see below for details on my application).
    What confuses me is this: If my goal is to, as accurately as possible, determine the overall uncertainty in a system consisting of a DMM and a Switch module, do I use the "Differential thermal EMF" as found in the switch data-sheet, or do I need to try and estimate temperatures in the switch and use the equation?
    *MY answer to my own question:
    By carefully re-reading the example in the thermocouple section of the switch, I realized that they calculate 2 EMF's, one for the internal switch, calculated as 2.5uV (given in the spec sheet of the switch as the typical value) and one for the actual thermocouple. I say actual, because I think my initial confusion stems from the fact that the documenation talks about the relay/switch junctions as thermocouples in one section, and then talks about an external "probe" thermocouple in the next and I got them confused.
    As such, if I can ensure low temperatures inside the switch at the location of the junctions (by adequate ventilation and powering down latching relays), I should be able to use 2.5uV as my EMF from the switch module, or to be conservative, <12uV max (from data sheet of 2527 again).
    I guess now I have a hard time believeing the 2.5uV typical value listed.. They say the junctions in the relays are typically an iron-nickel alloy against a copper-alloy. Well, those combinations are not explicitly listed in the documenation table for Seebeck coefficients, but even a very small value, like 0.3uV/C adds up to 7.5uV at 25degC. I'm thinking maybe the table values in the NI documentation reffers to the Seebeck values at 25C?
    Project Engineer
    LabVIEW 2009
    Run LabVIEW on WinXP and Vista system.
    Used LabVIEW since May 2005
    Certifications: CLD and CPI certified
    Currently employed.

    Seebeck EMV needs temperature gradients , in your relays you hopefully have low temperature gradients ... however in a switching contact you can have all kind diffusions and 'funny' effects, keeping them on same temperature is the best you can do. 
    Since you work with a multiplexer and with TCs, you need a good Cold junction ( for serious calibrations at 0°C ) and there is the good place for your short cut to measure the zero EMV. Another good test is loop the 'hot junction' back to the cold junction and observe the residual EMV.  Touching (or heating/cooling) the TC loop gives another number for the uncertainty calculation: the inhomogeneous material of the TC itself..
    A good source for TC knowledge:
    Manual on the use of thermocouples in temperature measurement,
    ASTM PCN: 28-012093-40,
    ISBN 0-8031-1466-4 
    (Page1): 'Regardless
    of how many facts are presented herein and regardless of the percentage
    retained,
                    all will be for naught unless one simple important fact is
    kept firmly in mind.
                    The thermocouple reports only what it "feels."
    This may or may not the temperature of interest'
    Message Edited by Henrik Volkers on 04-27-2009 09:36 AM
    Greetings from Germany
    Henrik
    LV since v3.1
    “ground” is a convenient fantasy
    '˙˙˙˙uıɐƃɐ lɐıp puɐ °06 ǝuoɥd ɹnoʎ uɹnʇ ǝsɐǝld 'ʎɹɐuıƃɐɯı sı pǝlɐıp ǝʌɐɥ noʎ ɹǝqɯnu ǝɥʇ'

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