An "Empty" In Place Element Structure rather than using one Flat Sequence?

Altenbach's neat Idea here got me thinking of the various ways we do synchronization, and I sat down an In Place structure and thought, why not? It saves a "tiny" bit of space, but personally, I think it looks better - especially for the typical Delay-in-a-Box. Thoughts or caveats?
Richard

You could use a single run while loop, it'll be correct usage and look different.
I recently used that solution to get the 1st element of 5 arrays at once.
/Y
LabVIEW 8.2 - 2014
"Only dead fish swim downstream" - "My life for Kudos!" - "Dumb people repeat old mistakes - smart ones create new ones."
G# - Free award winning reference based OOP for LV

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In-Place Element Structures, References and Pointers, Compiler Optimization, and General Stupidity

[The title of this forum is "Labview Ideas". Although this is NOT a direct suggestion for a change or addition to Labview, it seems appropriate to me to post it in this forum.]
In-Place Element Structures, References and Pointers, Compiler Optimization, and General Stupidity
I'd like to see NI actually start a round-table discussion about VI references, Data Value references, local variables, compiler optimizations, etc. I'm a C programmer; I'm used to pointers. They are simple, functional, and well defined. If you know the data type of an object and have a pointer to it, you have the object. I am used to compilers that optimize without the user having to go to weird lengths to arrange it.
The 'reference' you get when you right click and "Create Reference" on a control or indicator seems to be merely a shorthand read/write version of the Value property that can't be wired into a flow-of-control (like the error wire) and so causes synchronization issues and race conditions. I try not to use local variables.
I use references a lot like C pointers; I pass items to SubVIs using references. But the use of references (as compared to C pointers) is really limited, and the implementation is insconsistent, not factorial in capabilites, and buggy. For instance, why can you pass an array by reference and NOT be able to determine the size of the array EXCEPT by dereferencing it and using the "Size Array" VI? I can even get references for all array elements; but I don't know how many there are...! Since arrays are represented internally in Labview as handles, and consist of basically a C-style pointer to the data, and array sizing information, why is the array handle opaque? Why doesn't the reference include operators to look at the referenced handle without instantiating a copy of the array? Why isn't there a "Size Array From Reference" VI in the library that doesn't instantiate a copy of the array locally, but just looks at the array handle?
Data Value references seem to have been invented solely for the "In-Place Element Structure". Having to write the code to obtain the Data Value Reference before using the In-Place Element Structure simply points out how different a Labview reference is from a C pointer. The Labview help page for Data Value References simply says "Creates a reference to data that you can use to transfer and access the data in a serialized way.". I've had programmers ask me if this means that the data must be accessed sequentially (serially)...!!! What exactly does that mean? For those of use who can read between the lines, it means that Labview obtains a semaphore protecting the data references so that only one thread can modify it at a time. Is that the only reason for Data Value References? To provide something that implements the semaphore???
The In-Place Element Structure talks about minimizing copying of data and compiler optimization. Those kind of optimizations are built in to the compiler in virtually every other language... with no special 'construct' needing to be placed around the code to identify that it can be performed without a local copy. Are you telling me that the Labview compiler is so stupid that it can't identify certain code threads as needing to be single-threaded when optimizing? That the USER has to wrap the code in semaphores before the compiler can figure out it should optimize??? That the compiler cannot implement single threading of parts of the user's code to improve execution efficiency?
Instead of depending on the user base to send in suggestions one-at-a-time it would be nice if NI would actually host discussions aimed at coming up with a coherent and comprehensive way to handle pointers/references/optimization etc. One of the reasons Labview is so scattered is because individual ideas are evaluated and included without any group discussion about the total environment. How about a MODERATED group, available by invitation only (based on NI interactions with users in person, via support, and on the web) to try and get discussions about Labview evolution going?
Based solely on the number of Labview bugs I've encountered and reported, I'd guess this has never been done, with the user community, or within NI itself.....

Here are some articles that can help provide some insights into LabVIEW programming and the LabVIEW compiler. They are both interesting and recommended reading for all intermediate-to-advanced LabVIEW programmers.
NI LabVIEW Compiler: Under the Hood
VI Memory Usage
The second article is a little out-of-date, as it doesn't discuss some of the newer technologies available such as the In-Place Element Structure you were referring to. However, many of the general concepts still apply. Some general notes from your post:
1. I think part of your confusion is that you are trying to use control references and local variables like you would use variables in a C program. This is not a good analogy. Control references are references to user interface controls, and should almost always be used to control the behavior and appearance of those controls, not to store or transmit data like a pointer. LabVIEW is a dataflow language. Data is intended to be stored or transmitted through wires in most cases, not in references. It is admittedly difficult to make this transition for some text-based programmers. Programming efficiently in LabVIEW sometimes requires a different mindset.
2. The LabVIEW compiler, while by no means perfect, is a complicated, feature-rich set of machinery that includes a large and growing set of optimizations. Many of these are described in the first link I posted. This includes optimizations you'd find in many programming environments, such as dead code elimination, inlining, and constant folding. One optimization in particular is called inplaceness, which is where LabVIEW determines when buffers can be reused. Contrary to your statement, the In-Place Element Structure is not always required for this optimization to take place. There are many circumstances (dating back years before the IPE structure) where LabVIEW can determine inplaceness and reuse buffers. The IPE structure simply helps users enforce inplaceness in some situations where it's not clear enough on the diagram for the LabVIEW compiler to make that determination.
The more you learn about programming in LabVIEW, the more you realize that inplaceness itself is the closest analogy to pointers in C, not control references or data references or other such things. Those features have their place, but core, fundamental LabVIEW programming does not require them.
Jarrod S.
National Instruments

Object and in place element structure

Hi!
I need some help!
How can I do the following?
In the 1.) Set the new value here - make some changes takes effect the whole array, previously and take effect for the 2. wire?
I have tried that in place element structure without any success.
The reason is why I would like to do this is : I wanna avoid the always usage of get - set pairs when I am working with objects, tipically array of objects.
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(maybe I can calculate the index of the element what I want to update, but I think there is more easier alternative to do that and I should use the get - set again...)
+++ In God we believe, in Trance we Trust +++
[Hungary]
Solved!
Go to Solution.

The native LVOOP implementation is by-val and not by ref.as in most OOP implementations. If you are coming from an OOP background, think like: every time you branch a wire, it creates a clone of the object on the wire (or all the objects in the array in your case). As a general rule, this is the desired behaviour in about 80% of the cases (when using LabVIEW). So consider if you can't do it using a by-val implementation.
There are several falvours of by-ref implementation, where you will have the same objects on both wires:
* private data inside SEQ (single element queue, no replaced by the next one)
* private data inside DVR (data value reference)
* object inside DVR
which implementation you choose is up to you. From your image/code, I'd place the object inside the DVR. You could create the DVR with the obj in the first for loop. In the secend for loop, index your elements and use the IPE to get the obj out of the DVR for your get-set operation and place it back.
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www.aescusoft.de
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Crash when use indexe array with in place element structure

Hello !
I have a problem with in place element structure. I want index a waveform array (16 elements) and when i execute or save that labview close....
I dont have problem with waveform array 15 elements or less, but i need index 16 elements...
Thanks for your help !!!
Solved!
Go to Solution.
Attachments:
Test.PNG ‏8 KB

I give you my code but it work because i used a waveform array with only 15 elements. I can't save or execute with 16 elements...
So add it (like picture Test.png) and you will see.
Thank you
Attachments:
Test.vi ‏25 KB

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Author:   [email protected]
Date:     2009-05-19 23:46:06 -0700 (Tue, 19 May 2009)
Log Message:
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Doc Notes: None
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An "Empty" In Place Element Structure rather than using one Flat Sequence?

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