29.97fps to 24p

I am trying to get some of my 29.97 footage to have the same look as 24p since I am switching cameras mid production.
If I want to explore other methods besides Nattress, does anyone know if it is this possible to get a 24p look in Final Cut, or is this something I need to do in After Effects for the time being?

Right - just the look of 24fps - but still editing it in a 29.97 timeline. I was able to approximate it I think by pulling 2 tracks into after effects, having one track interpret lower fields and the other interpret the upper fields - and lower the opacity of the top track in a comp.
Then taking this comp into a new comp and posterizing time to 24fps.
Not buying the plugin yet because i don't really need it yet. i just have one clip i need to convert for now...

Similar Messages

Different frame rate encoding on tape (24p & 24pa)

Hi,
I usually record to tape with my dvx100 using 24pa, but sometimes the quick setup dial was switched accidentally resulting in a different frame encoding, like 24p for example.
Everything is recorded in 29.97fps on mini-dv, we all know that, making apparently no difference b/w 24p and 24pa.
But of course, when i'm trying to capture this footage through FCP, i can't always remove the advanced pulldown because there's a few clips that have been recorded with 24p instead of 24pa.
Questions:
- How can you detect the different encoding on tape, whether it's 24p or 24pa?
- Can you get FCP to create a new clip (at least stop) the capture for those sections of the tape where I have something different than 24pa?
- If nothing like that is possible, how do you solve this problem?
Thanks!

the only pulldown pattern that FCP can remove at capture is 24pA (3:2:2:3). Standard 3:2 pulldown can only be reversed using cinema tools. If you open the clip in cinema tools, you'll need to park the playhead on the first frame of the pulldown cadence for it to correctly remove the pulldown. This will create new copies of your clips, which will take up a corresponding amount of space. There is no way for either FCP or CT to reconize the pulldown cadence of standard 3:2 clips, so you'll have to manually find the A frame of the cadence. If you have a huge number of them to do, you may find it quicker to place each clip in a sequence where you can put the A frame of the cadence as the first frame in the sequence. Export these as a batch of reference movies, and you should be able to do a batch inverse telecine on them in Cinema Tools.
These new clips will no longer match the timecode of your tapes, so if you remove the original 29.97 media, you should at least keep the offline 29.97 clips in your project in case you need to recapture.
Hope this helps -
Max Average

Capture settings for Canon XL2 shot in: 16:9 24p 2:3:3:2

I just boght the XL2 and FCP, and need to capture a four hour interview I shot today in 16:9 24p 2:3:3:2. I just don't know how to set up the capture settings correctly.
Thanks guys,
Wes
iMac G5 Mac OS X (10.4.7) 2.0 GHz, 400Gb Hard Drive, 2Gb Ram, 250Gb External

Well, 2:3:#:2 pulldown refers to the way your camera flags the frames while they're recorded, in other words there's not real 24P recording while using tape, because video runs @ 29.97fps ,(what the camera does is to tell to your editing machine that it has to spread the 1st frame over the two first fields the second frame over the next three fields the third frame again over three fields and so on, from there it why it's call 2:3:3:2 pulldown) so in fact to capture true 24P for editing you have to remove the pulldown and remember,if you later are going to edit to tape you'll have to re-apply the pulldown so it prints well to a 29.97 device.
Hope I was clear enough

Importing "24p Cinema" footage from Canon AVCHD camera ?

Hi all,
I have bought a CANON HFS10 Vixia AVCHD camera, I`ve made some footage using the "24p cinema" mode.
When using media browser in PPCS5 and importing it, it still indicates (like in CS4) under "properties", that the footage is "29.97 fps", as CS5 is compatible with this camera specifically, shouldn`t CS5 indicate something like "24 cinema Canon mode" or so ?
It`s my understanding that the Canon camera produces a 24 fps footage "wrapped" in a 29.97 container; it`s also my understanding that, as CS4 is not compatible with this camera, it looked ONLY at the wrapper and said under properties "29.97 fps", that sounds reasonable for me.
But what about CS5 ? How do I know if it is really "seeing" the 24p footage wrapped in a 29.97 fps wrapper if it still says "29.97 fps" ? Will it perform the editing and exporting correctly even though ?
Thank you very much,
RK

I was wondering though.....shouldn`t I just NOT DO Anything ?
Well, that would be ideal... but you know how THAT goes
There`s an Adobe document at its web site talking specifically about the
Canon cameras, it mentions specifically my camera and the so-called "24p
cinema" format.
Can you post a link? I'm just curious what it says. The biggest issue is that Canon actually has (at least) two different 24p "formats," and your camcorder records to the not-so-easy-to-deal-with version. It's what Canon deems "24pf," which means that it records 18 progressive frames and 12 interlaced frames, but it doesn't flag which are which, so programs that are not able to determine the pulldown cadence can't remove the necessary frames to create a true 24p clip. After Effects (and a number of other methods) can determine the cadence, but that's an extra step, obviously.
It says that I can use Media Browser to import the files and...that`s
all, it doesn`t go any further.The option Interpret footage -> remove
pulldown is greyed out for me (?)
Yeah, that makes sense, given the above. Do you have a really short clip you wouldn't mind uploading somewhere for a test? I can't find one anywhere online...
I wonder if I could just edit it normally (labelled as 29.97fps
though..) and export the timeline as 23.976p....?
Which results would I achieve ? I`m trying to avoid spending some
expensive blu-ray medias doing tests;
You could, technically speaking, but aesthetically, you'd be pretty displeased with the results. The export process isn't any smarter than the import process, so unless you do the necessary steps, you won't get a good, clean 24p encode.

AVCHD--1920x1080 24p native--final cut express

New to FCE and video. I shot a bunch of video on a Canon HFS 21 in 1920 x 1080 24p native. I am trying to import it into FCE, but it looks like FCE wants me to degrade my video to import it and edit. Same goes for some video I shot with my Canon Mark IV, which was also 24 p. Is there anyway to work with FCE and 24p native or do I need to upgrade to FCS? Thanks in advance.

I just got a Panasonic GH2 which can shoot in 1080p24 and I edit with FCE. What I have figured out is that if you just use a 29.97fps timeline, it plays the 24fps video fine. Then when you export the project at the end, just export back to 24fps and it should line back up with the original 24fps of the video you shot and not skip or duplicate any frames.
The one thing that might be a problem is that when you tell FCE to export at 24fps, it actually does what I think is a pull-down and exports at 23.98 fps. This may mean that once in a great while there is a dropped frame. If you do the same thing but use a 25fps timeline in FCE the actual exported rate is 24.04 I think. This is worse as there will be duplicate frames twice as often.
If you are concerned about the dropped frames with using the 29.97fps timeline in FCE, export to a lossless (or near lossless) format at 29.97fps (ie by not using "Quicktime Conversion"), then post process the result in JES De-interlacer (free), using "standards conversion" to convert the video from 29.97 to 24fps (use telecine mode, not blend). This will resample the frame rate to exactly 24fps and you should be good. Link:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jeschot/home.html
I have noticed some weird jumpy stuff if I slow down a 24p clip in FCE where the camera was panning left and try to fight that by moving the clip right on the canvas (the faster frame rate of the FCE motion keyframe move fighting the slower frame rate of the original video moving in the opposite direction), but I assume that would also happen with 30p or 60i video in that situation if you slowed it down enough - just the 24fps video is making it more obvious at less extreme speed reductions.
Message was edited by: Arvid

Why Does Premiere CS6 Output 29.97fps when Encoding to 23.976 fps?

My project is XDCam EX, 23.976 fps. I exported to DVD MPEG and both VLC and Windows Explorer details report 29.97fps file format.
I downloaded the latest updates two days ago. Just wondering why the encoder refuses to leave 23.976fps footage and project alone and convert it to 29.97? Render settings are clearly 23.976fps. Bug?

i didn't read the forum i linked, so yes, i was wrong in the way adobe converts it to 29.97, pulldown vs added frame. the output file will be reported as 29.97, but mediainfo can see the flags and reports it as 23.976 with 2:3 pulldown. when i look at the .m2v file from premiere, frame by frame i can see the two interlaced frames from pulldown. so are those true interlaced frames or does the media player program generate those interlaced frames as a result of the flag telling it to?
Telecine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wiki:
Reverse telecine (a.k.a. inverse telecine (IVTC), reverse pulldown)
Some DVD players, line doublers, and personal video recorders are designed to detect and remove 2:3 pulldown from telecined video sources, thereby reconstructing the original 24 frame/s film frames. This technique is known as “reverse” or “inverse” telecine. Benefits of reverse telecine include high-quality non-interlaced display on compatible display devices and the elimination of redundant data for compression purposes.
my understanding is the interlaced frames are real. it is 29.97fps, with 2 of 5 as interlaced. the reverse pulldown reconstructs a single frame from the two interlaced, dropping the fps to the original 24p. is this not the case with adobe's pulldown?
media player:
Video: MPEG2 Video 720x480 29.97fps 7000kbps [Video]
Audio: PCM 48000Hz stereo 1536kbps [A: pcm_s16le, 48000 Hz, 2 channels, s16, 1536 kb/s]
mediainfo:
Frame rate
: 23.976 fps
Standard
: NTSC
Color space
: YUV
Chroma subsampling
: 4:2:0
Bit depth
: 8 bits
Scan type
: Progressive
Scan order
: 2:3 Pulldown

Panasonic 24p footage - workflow in CS4

Hi there,
Although it’s my first post on this forum I’ve been reading and browsing for answers to my questions before – it’s not the case for me to give advises, not yet at least!!!
But this thread just confuses me a lot and I don’t think I fully understood the previous related discussions I’ve read. So here is my question:
What’s the workflow in Premiere CS4 with DVX100 footage, 24pA (although I also have some 24p Standard – meaning 2:3:2:3 pulldown cadence) to obtain a 24p video with Nooooo interlaced artifacts?
For the 24pA, from what I reasoned myself and read on this forum, I chose the 24p Standard present under DV-24p. Captured the footage and applied the Interpret footage -> Remove 24p DV pulldown. Set the in and out points; dragged it on the timeline of a sequence (24p preset). None of the Source or the Monitor windows show any interlaced artifacts and the timeline shows NO red line above. So it should be a 23.97fps footage, right?
BUT, as soon as exported (in the Microsoft AVI format with, for e.g., the NTSC DV 24p preset) I DO see the video as interlaced in BSplayer, while with Windows Media Player it shows no interlaced artifacts. I thought that my BSplayer is configurated wrong, but, any further compression I apply to this like exported video (a DivX codec, for e.g.), gives me a new video file with interlaced look in BOTH players. I’m loosing my mind – where do I do wrong? Project settings? Export settings?
(the footage was shot on tripod, but with a lot of motion in it - sport! And is designed to be exported for DVD and to be viewed on computer.)
2. How could I mix 24pA footage with 24p Standard footage of the same DVX100? As, for mistake, the 1st day I shot 24p Standard instead of 24pA?
From what I understood the 24p Standard need a 29,97 fps sequence – is it right?
Thank you,
Karmen

It works--I've done it dozens of times with hours of 24p (not 24pA) footage. The 24pA cadence wasn't necessarily designed to make 24p editing possible; it was designed to make 24p editing less taxing for a computer and somewhat higher quality, because a whole "frame" (and I say "frame" in quotes because there are no such things as "frames" in interlaced video) could simply be discarded.
I understand the logic of your thinking, but again, keep in mind that are no such things as frames in interlaced video. Each field is written independently, but we like to think of a video frame as being comprised of a top and bottom (or upper and lower, or odd and even) field because it's easier to comprehend that way. For the most part, this thinking works; that's the whole source of the "is it 30i or 60i?" nomenclature question.
Now, while I'm not too sure about the science or math of it--I try to stay out of the part--I believe the way that DV compression works is to package those two fields together as a "frame", simply for compression purposes. The fields are still independent, and can be recovered as independent entities, but it involves decompression to reverse the DV compression. Once you do that, you have two separate fields, and in the case of 24p, those independent fields can now be reassembled in the proper order to recreate 24 independent progressive frames. It is the 2:3 pulldown cadence that tells the software which fields it needs to use to recreate the independent frames. Of course, it's still DV, so in order for it to be played back properly, there must be a recompression step.
And this is why 24pA was invented. It's still recorded with fields, because it's interlaced DV at its heart, but the 2:3:3:2 cadence allows for the third "frame" of five to simply be ignored: everything the editing software needs to create a 24p stream is already encoded in the DV stream, without any decompression or reassembly needed. Recording using 24pA maintains a somewhat higher quality on those frames that would otherwise have to be reconstructed if the video was recorded with 24p, and there is theoretically less of an impact on computer performance because the decompression/recompression cycle is being avoid (though I doubt that has much bearing on any computer manufactured within the last few years).
I know it seems like voodoo, but that's really how it works (distilled a bit, I suppose!). Check out this article at Adam Wilt's website for more information, as well as some graphics that illustrate what's going on in 24p and 24pA recording.

Removing Pulldown from Canon HV20 shot at 24P

Hello,
I have been trying to understand this whole situation particularly with the Canon HV20 and the 1080p24 mode that the camera offers. It is my understanding that when this video is stored to HDV it is shot onto a 1080i60 timeline, thus when capturing the video capture the video at 1080i60.
Okay, that I can do without a problem. However now I want to remove the pulldown using Cinema Tools to get the video into the proper 1080p24 mode so that it can be edited on a 1080p24 timeline.
I have read two main posts regarding this:
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=4287943&#4287943
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=89642&highlight=fcp
The user was kind enough to provide the following information:
p-p-i-i-p - aa
p-i-i-p-p - bb
i-p-p-p-i - bc
p-p-p-i-i - cd
However, I understand that this implies the sequencing of the Interlaced and Progressive frames.
With that said, I have no clue how this applies to the options available in Cinema tools. I have zero experience with Cinema Tools other than, "Hey, that looks interesting." just to fiddle around with it for a minute get bored and move on.
Thanks any help would be greatly appreciated and I am sure that there will be other HV20 owners soon popping up with the same question....
PowerMac G5 Quad / MacBook Pro 2.0GHz / PowerMac G4 Cube 1.8GHz Mac OS X (10.4.9) Final Cut Studio - Shake 4.1 - Adobe CS2

If someone can explain how this works or point to
someplace I can learn some more I would appreciate
it.
My apologies in advance for the long winded post.
I’ve seen this question several times but I haven’t yet seen a good answer for this. So I did a little digging and here’s what I can tell you. Any of you experts out there can correct me if need be.
First off, let’s look at how the HV20 actually stores the 24p frames in a 60i format. And let’s ignore the 23.98/29.97fps thing for a while. Remember that for 60i there are 60 interlaced fields every second, each containing half the video lines necessary to make up a complete frame of data. So in order to get a complete frame, it requires 2 fields. This means that 60i really only has 30 frames worth of video every second. Fairly basic stuff… I hope nothing new.
Now let’s break this down a little further, the most basic repeating pattern for this format is 4 progressive frames being fit into 10 interlaced fields (divide both 24 and 60 by 6, don’t ask me why, it’s just the way they did it because it fits.). These 4 progressive frames are referred to as A – B – C – D. What the HV20 (and other cameras) do is convert this to interlaced fields so that it fits inside the 60i data fields. This gives us something like Au – Al – Bu – Bl – Cu – Cl – Du – Dl. Where the “u” and “l” refer to the upper or lower field of video. To make a complete frame you have to reassemble an upper field with a lower field. Now it you’re keeping track, you’ll notice that this only adds up to 8 fields and 10 would be what is needed. So they duplicate 2 fields to get 10 in this fashion: Au – Al – Bu – Bl – Bl – Cu – Cl – Du - Du – Dl. Since it takes 2 sequential fields to make a frame, this sequence normally gets referred to as AA – BB – BC – CD – DD. It shouldn’t be that big of a leap now to see that this can also be referred to as p-p-i-i-p when looked at from a frame (two consecutive fields) perspective, ie: AA is considered progressive, BB is considered progressive, BC is considered interleaved, etc.
FCP uses the AA – BB – BC – CD – DD nomenclature to designate how the cadence of a clip starts.
p-p-i-i-p -> AA – BB – BC – CD – DD -> referred to as AA
p-i-i-p-p -> BB – BC – CD – DD – AA -> referred to as BB
i-i-p-p-p -> BC – CD – DD - AA – BB -> referred to as BC
i-p-p-p-i -> CD – DD - AA – BB – BC -> referred to as CD
p-p-p-i-i -> DD - AA – BB – BC – CD -> referred to as DD
As mentioned before, the easiest way to do this in Cinema Tools is to place the first of 3 p frames in the viewer and the set the cadence to DD.
Hope this helps.
Mark

30p fps to 24p fps when no interlace is involved

Hello: I've shot my clip in 720p60, then uncompressed it, edited it in FCP in a 29.97fps timeline sequence, export (using QuickTime Conversion) as H.264 at 29.97fps and the result is very smooth. When I export as H.264 at 24fps the result has a slightly jerky motion (possibly because every 5th frame has been deleted ???). What is the best method to convert from 30p fps to 24p fps (no interlace is involved) ? Thank-You, MLR

Broadcast stations won't EVER want to air things in 24 fps. Here in America, when they get 24fps material they do a process called telecine and ADD (or Combine) frames to get it to 30 anyway.
Leave it at 30.
Now, if you edited in 24 with native 24 material that would be a different story. You could add the telecine cadence onto your video and make it just right with a 'film-look'.
Here's what I suggest you do...
Call up MTV and ask them to send you their BROADCAST SPECS (often called a red book... or white book). They'll be happy to point you in the direction of it.
Also do it for PBS and maybe Discovery Channel.
Read EVERY word. Will be an education you couldn't EVER pay for. Might also open your eyes to how far over your head you might be.
Good luck...
CaptM

BLURRY images when I Modify speed in 29.97 timeline with 24p footage

I am modifying the speed of a clip - only to 90% - and parts of
the clip appear blurry after I render.
Any ideas why? What can I do?
Thank you in advance!

Is it 24p footage with 3:2 pulldown or, just 24p media?
Either way, you're in for a fun time.....
for 24p with 3:2 pulldown, first use Cinema Tools to remove the pulldown. Now, use Cinema Tools to conform it to 2.9.97fps. Now take it into your timeline and adjust the speed.
For 24p media, just conform it in Cinema Tools to 29.97fps, and then pu in your timeline and adjust the speed.
What you're doing is avoiding having FCP convert the 24p to 29.97fps by adding frames, before it gets to the speed change. Similarly, 24p with 3:2 pulldown must have it's pulldown removed before you can do a speed change.
This should make things nicer for you!
Graeme

FCP on an iMac or any other software that handles 24p

Gentlefolks,
I'm researching a video editing computer + software and would really like to move to a Mac but for a number of reasons I would like to get an iMac instead of a Mac Pro (not just the price). From what I've seen, FCE would work for me except for one thing: it doesn't support 24p
(iMovie is very limited for what I want to do)
I would even consider FCP but it seems an iMac is not the recommended machine for it, even if you spec it out to 4Gb RAM.
So, my question is, is there any other software for the Mac that supports 24p (plus High Def) and will run comfortably on an iMac?
BTW, the camera I'm considering is the Cannon HV20.
Thank you in advance for any comments.
Regards,
Ismenio

FCP will run on an iMac...it just isn't the optimal machine for this. Main reason is the fact that there is only ONE firewire bus for all your ports. So to capture DV, HDV or DVCPRO HD you use that same bus for the camera/deck and for the hard drive...meaning more possibilies of dropped frames when capturing. But, that being said, an iMac can handle any of those formats just fine...24p too. There are NO SPECIAL REQUIREMENTS for handling 24p. It is actually easier on the system. Less frames per second, less data rate.
BUT...the HV20 and it's 24f format....that is another beast. It shoots 24f in a 1080i60 data stream, so you need to capture it as 1080i60 at 29.97fps. (there is an Easy Setup for that). The 24p footage is then obtained AFTERWARDS by using Compressor or Cinema Tools...both only available with FCP.
Here's the workflow:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=306389
I owned this camera for all of 36 hours. And had no problems capturing or doing this workflow. Why did I return it? That focus 'knob" drove me NUTS! But, I had no problems with that camera.
Shane

Ingesting AVCHD Footage into FCE (shot 720/24p)

Hi, I've been reading up a lot on various problems with ingesting AVCHD footage into FC Express. I'm using a Panasonic HM150 camera. I've transfered the footage from a SD Card reader to my Iomega 500GB external drive. We shot our footage at 720/24p. I tried to use easy setup for this, but there is no format for this in FCE 4.0.1. The best that I can do seems to be AVCHD 1080i. Can anyone assist me with how I can get FCE to ingest AVCHD footage shot at 720/24p and the exact settings I need to use to ensure correct ingestion? Upon trying to log and transfer it, I keep getting the red exclamation mark. Would this be because the settings are incorrect? I'm surprised that FCE doesn't have this particular setting since many people do shoot in the 720 mode.
Many thanks,
J.D.

Although FCE isn't designed to work with 24p footage, I've heard of a lot of people recently being able to ingest it anyway into FCE, but then getting stuck when it's time to put it into a sequence.
Click the gear button in the upper right of the Log and Transfer window, and navigate to the Preferences menu. Make sure Audio is set to *Plain Stereo* and click the button to *Clear the Cache.* Now try ingesting with your Easy Setup set to AIC 720p30. If it works, you can then use the free [MPEG Streamclip|http://www.squared5.com> to convert the capture scratch files to 29.97fps and edit them in FCE.
If it doesn't work, you may be able to use [Voltaic HD|http://www.shedworx.com/voltaichd] to convert from AVCHD to the Apple Intermediate Codec at 29.97fps for editing.
Message was edited by: skalicki`

Shooting and editing at 24P, not 23.98

I am based in Beijing, where video is PAL. I’m working on pre-production on a feature film to be shot on a Varicam and edited in Final Cut Pro. We want to base editing around a future film print, and would rather shoot and edit at true 24p and not 23.98. We do not want to do an offline edit. I have one small question and one big question:
1. Is 23.98 merely to facilitate an easy NTSC workflow? I understand there are also sound-sync issues involved (?). We will be recording onto tape and DAT simultaneously.
2. I’m trying to create a “true” 24p FCP setup, so there will be no 23.98 element. I’ve installed the DVCproHD Components 1.1 and Frame Rate Converter for Final Cut Pro. Below, I’ll refer to true 24p (not 23.98) as “24.0”.
I’ve read this both can be done and cannot be done, and our team has discovered a maze of detailed pieces of disinformation regarding DVCPRO HD and 24p. Most articles and posts say FCP cannot do 24.0, but the Frame Rate Converter documentation seems to suggest this is possible.
I have created a 24.0 Easy Setup with:
- Sequence Preset with a 24.0 editing timebase; timecode rate “same as editing timebase”; Quicktime compression type 720p60 with 24.0 fps.
- Capture Preset with 720p24, and capturing at 23.98. (This appears to be unchangeable, and the compressor settings are locked at 59.94 fps. So it appears while the Varicam can shoot 24.0 progressive [with duplicate frames], FCP can only capture 23.98.)
- Device Control Presets with DVCPRO HD firewire preset I modified to a frame rate of 24.0.
So, I think I have all the setting set up for 24.0 EXCEPT for the compressor setting inside the capture preset, which appears to be locked at 59.94 and capturing at 23.98. So it looks like the only block to editing 24.0 DVCPRO HD is that FCP can’t capture it.
We are for sure going to use Varicam and edit on FCP 5.0, and if there’s no way to really edit online 24.0 HD, then we’ll do 23.98.
Thank you for any help. And as there are many conflicting posts and documentation on this issue, it would probably be most helpful for those with first-hand experience editing 24.0 in FCP to reply…
Quad G5 Power PC, G4 Powerbook Mac OS X (10.4.7)

Great question and the best of it all, you will have a true 24fps and 48k audio project throughout! Your settings look good.
It actually took me some time to figure out where you even seeing the 23.98 but I did find it under sequence presets. Mmmm... Now to explain this in a short e-mail.
1. The problem is all with NTSC. If you stay in FCP, output to HD, never look at the video on an NTSC monitor, then your project will always be 24fps and the audio will always be 48k. No worries. As a result, that 23.98fps frame rate in the Summary Sequence setting is a bit misleading and only applies to playing back 24 frame projects on NTSC equipment - laying back to tape and viewing on a NTSC TV/Monitor. (This is true for film based or HD projects - film runs at 24fps too). In FCP, Your sequence willsonly playback and edit 24fps.
2. Why is 23.98 even there then? The answer takes 3 steps - do you have the patience to read them all, as it is quite dry.
STEP 1: (what most people know)
NTSC puts 29.97 frames a second on a screen. Your version of reality was recorded at 24 frames a second. If we could just bypass all the electronics built into your 24HD deck and NTSC monitor and just play your tape on a NTSC monitor, your images would look like everyone is moving about 25% faster (29.97 divided 24). Another way to look at this is that in 10 seconds, the NTSC monitor will display 299.7 frames (10 seconds times 29.97). If we played back 299.7 of your frames in 10 seconds, we would actually be looking at about 12 seconds of your recordered reality. So the important how do we keep your 24fps looking like reality rather than speeding it up? The answer is to add 5.97 frames to your image when playing back on a machine that is displaying 29.97fps (NTSC). Believe it or not, this is not that hard to do. The most basic explanation being that by duplicating some of the 24fps frames and merging others you create an extra 5.97 frames and simply insert these extra frames inside the 24 so that you now have 29.97 frames instead of 24. Done properly, your eye cannot see the difference.
Step 2: (what confuses the people not already confused from above)
The problem arises is what the heck is .97 of a frame? What does it look like? It doesn't. Only 1 full frames are added. This is really an accounting problem, like where do all the quarter of a pennies go in the world? (Only Richard Pryor from Superman and the guys from Office Space seem to know.) The answer is, since we are already tricking your eye by adding extra frames that never existed in the first place on film (24fps) or 24 HD, by just not adding one of these 'created' frames every 10 seconds or so (you will never miss it don't worry) when you do the accounting in the end, an odd number like .97 of a frame is created. Bottom line - 6 full frames are added per second (24 real frames+6 created frames= 30 frames - darn close to 29.97), then by not adding one frame occasionally drops the overall average to 29.97) making TV networks happy, engineers look like geniuses and the rest of us posting long dry explanations on the net.
STEP 3 (The step almost no one understands, not even completely by me)
Ok, if you gotten this far and have an understanding congrats! So although the entire explanation above was a mathematical one, it was all really about our experience of ‘seeing.’ Everybody sees reality occur at the same pace (yes sport superstars seem to see things slower than others) but as humans we basically all see reality at about the same pace. The explanation above dealt with a technical issue that when reality is recorded at one speed and played back at another, how do we balance those technical things out so that people viewing the material see it as it was meant. Ok, here is the kicker - what about sound? Mmm, didn't think about that did you? I mean CD's have a frame rate of 44,000 samples a second called 44k. HD, DVcam, DAT all have 48k or 48000 samples a second – think of it like frames a second). So what do you do when all your material is in sync in your FCP (or Avid) playing back nicely at 24fps and you want to make an NTSC tape or watch it on a big TV monitor? Well if you are lazy like me, you would just duplicate 25% of the sound just like the picture (30 divided by 24) and just add it in at the same time you add in those extra 6 frames!! Perfect. But of course you cannot. Well actually you can, but it would sound bad, clicking and hiccupping. Your experience of the sound would be odd. So the engineers had to come up with another way to deal with sound. The slowed it down!! That’s right, since you can't add extra sound like picture, when converting 24 frames to 30 frames, they slowed the sound down. I am not an expert in this field so I dare not explain it as I am sure to create some inaccuracies, but that is what they do. So when you are listening to an Avid or FCP through an NTSC monitor or outputting to tape, the audio is being played back a little slower (47.97 in a 48k project) then how it was originally recorded! Again, engineers are tricking you – your ear this time. This minute slow down of the audio is not perceivable to most people.
ENOUGH!! SO WHAT ABOUT 23.98?
Ok ready? Digital Audio is the issue here. Digital Audio, DAT, DVcam, HD, DA88, is mostly recorded at 48k. CD's are 44K, but most other formats are 48k. The 24fps conversion to 29.997 conversion causes a major headache for audio folks. Without more boring details, when converting video from 24fps to 29.97fps, all the people have to re-adjust all of their audio from 48 to 49.97 to keep in sync. As a result they spend a lot of time converting their audio and more importantly to them, they lose the pure digital clarity. Also handing sound files back and forth between picture editors and sound editors and music editors has never been convenient because of this issue. At some point a sound file is imported or exported incorrectly and the sound has to be put through a digital process to get it to be in sync again. So how do you solve this constant tedious conversation about whether the Audio is at 48k or 49.97? Well the problem becomes an accounting one once again. The issue really is how the video editing machines account for time code. For the longest time, these machines were built with the idea "We do 24fps everybody resample around us." Remember, this technology was invented only 15 years ago when disk drives were small, machines were slow, and moving pictures were severely compressed to just to get them onto the hard drives. Keeping everything in sync was a major hardware task back then, and sales of machines that could edit 24 frames were dominated by film companies who only knew about 24 frames a second. Now, not so much. So to keep the audio at 48k and not need any conversions, the video editing machine would have to account for the conversion between 24fps and 29.97 NTSC time code slightly differently. The answer is to play back 24fps back at 23.98 to NTSC devices and as result the audio would stay pure and original at 48K!! However, your cackles would arise and of course would cause the question in everyone’s mind which was your first question “are we really editing at 24fps?” Which is of course why long ago nobody ever marketed a 23.98 Video Editing Software/hardware solution because all day long they would have to answer this question over and over. Better just make the machine do everything at 24fps (even the accounting) and let the audio grunts have to deal with it.
So the answer is yes, you will be editing in 24fps. Audio will remain at a pure and original 48k. And if you have to output to NTSC for any reason (and yes I promise you one will come up) the machine will play the picture back at 23.98 so that it looks great and the audio will come out at a pure 48k.
Good luck
Doug

24P or not to P, that is the question...

I was hoping someone could clarify the significant importance of buying a 24P camera in which the footage is going to end up on a NTSC SD DVD. I filmed footage for a film shot with a Canon HV20 in the 24P mode. The footage looks fantastic after you put it through Compressor and get 24fps.
To me this is all irrelevant however, I'll explain. After you shoot on the HV20 it records as 29.97fps. It is not 24fps until you pulldown the remaining frames in Compressor.
Would I have been better off just shooting on the 24P mode at 29.97fps and leaving it this way because IT IS GOING TO END UP BEING 29.97FPS IN iDVD WHEN I CREATE MY SD DVD PROJECT???? I ask this because of the large amount of time it takes in Compressor converting the footage from 29.97fps to 24fps.
I can not see any advantage at all in using 24P unless you are planning transferring to film which is 24fps.
If someone has a different view or I am missing something here could you clarify please? Please keep the explanation simple as I am not a super techie when it comes to these discussions!!
Frustrated, confused, and need of a simple explanation if I am wrong here.
Regards,
Rory
Message was edited by: Rory Mells

No...that is NOT the only advantage. Outputting to DVD is also a serious advantage, as, again, 24fps gets you more storage and better data rates. DVDs you buy with Hollywood movies are all 24fps.
Then there is the storage used to edit the footage on. 1 hour of Prores at 29.97 is about 76GB, and 1 hour of ProRes at 23.98 is 61 GB. Big savings.
Also, there are many formats of broadcast HD delivery that require 23.98 masters. I am required to deliver HDCAM masters at 23.98...sometimes HDCAM SR masters. So it is not only for film...
Shane

Capturing 24P from DVX100a

Hello all, a Rookie here,
I shot a feature in 24P Advanced (DVX100a). I am capturing using the advice on that "kenstone" page that shows up a lot in these threads.
Checking my footage, some of it looks a little off, timing-wise between clips. I checked the "item properties" of the clip and found that the "Format" is listed at 29.97fps. Is this correct, or should it read 23.98?
Again, my capture setting are for "DV NTSC 48 kHz Advanced (2:3:3:2) Pulldown Removal". Does "pulldown removal" in fact mean that it is capturing at 29.97?
Either way, the timeline is set at 24P, so I should be fine, I just didn't want to capture a ton of stuff and find out later that it's worthless.
I should also not that I am "Capturing Now" b/c of timecode problems.
So, I guess the question is "How am I doing?"

Cookman, you're hilarious,
So, I forgot to mention that because of timecode problems, I had to capture as an "uncontrallable device", so I should be able to set that device up to capture at 23.98 in the preferences, right? That should fix it.
Also, I am noticing that the computer is ignoring my "anamorphic" checkboxes. All my stuff is getting read as 4:3, even though I set the preferences to anamorphic. Any suggestions?
Thanks.

29.97fps to 24p

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