Aspect ratio confusion HDV + DV = mess

Sorry to ask my second question in 24 hours. I think my new problem is as much a case of me not getting the concept as it is of me not understanding the software.
Thanks to the kind folk on this forum I managed to sort out my timeline and get all the clips to overlay properly. I then thought that rather than exporting the whole thing, I should just mark an in and out point on the sequence and create a QT (mov) file from that section, which I would then turn into a short (6 minute) DVD using iDVD. All of that seemed to go really smoothly and quickly BUT when I played the DVD on a Sony LCD TV I realised that the aspect ratio has gone wrong. There are black bars at the top and bottom, even though it is a 16:9 TV and the source material is 16:9 (albeit in different formats - see below). The people look a bit squashed on the TV screen and the aspect ratio of the video part of the picture when it appears on the TV screen is more like 2.35:1 than 16:9.
Then I looked back at the Canvas in FCE and realised that there are black bars on the Canvas above and below the video, which I had been ignoring because I thought they were background... I am praying that I don't have to re-edit the whole thing now. I measured (with a ruler!) the proportions of the image I am getting in the canvas and sure enough it is a black box at 4:3 aspect ratio with a video image in the middle at 16:9. I guess I must be sending a 4:3 image out to Quicktime at 16:9, which just squishes everything and leaves the black bars. I could cry, really.
Here is the tech information. I have a Sequence on the timeline from 3 video sources:
1. A DV clip that is 720 x 576 from a Sony camera shooting in widescreen mode
2. An HDV clip (now in Apple Intermediate Codec) that is at 1440x1080 from a Canon HV40
3. Another PAL DV clip at 720 x 576 which started life on the hard drive of a borrowed camera and had to be converted to something usable from a proprietary JVC format
I've just noticed - and this may not be important - that clips 1 and 3 have "anamorphic" ticked when you look at their properties in the browser, whereas clip 2 (the HDV one) doesn't have that ticked.
What can I do to rescue my project and create a proper 16:9 format DVD without re-editing for 50 hours?
Thanks
Andrew

Hello Tom, I just realised that you wrote the book that's sitting on the desk next to me... I thought that name looked familiar.
Thanks for your reply. My media is in pretty much equal parts: the performance I was filming ran for an hour and I kept all three cameras running for the whole performance. Having edited between the camera outputs now, the least used is from the JVC camera. The other two (HDV and DV) are roughly equally used but the DV was the wide shot so has no edits in the timeline sequence - the other two video tracks are above it. The sequence setting, if I'm looking in the right place, seems to be DV PAL 48kHz. I don't see a place to set the aspect ratio other than in the Canvas zoom where there is a "preserve aspect ratio" setting that is ticked.
Andrew

Similar Messages

Still Photo Aspect Ratio Confusion

Apologize for asking a question on this topic as I have been through the forum and realize the topic of aspect ratio comes up often. I have not however seen this question answered. Quick background:
-Working with HD Video footage imported as SD as I am burning non-HD dvd's and I have heard the conversion in IDVD and Toast from HD is not great;
-Using photos imported from Aperture in FCE;
-Sequence is NTSC anamorphic as I want 16:9 but without HD;
My question is about the aspect ratio of still photos when I bring them into the timeline. I have experimented with saving photos in different aspect ratios: 853x480 and 720x480. When I import into FCE the 853 shows a square pixel and the 720 shows a NTSC pixel. From what I have read this is due to the way FCE interprets the aspect ratio and assigns an pixel aspect. When I view each in the viewer they both look correct when I click the corresponding pixel aspect from the top of the viewer. It is when I move these to the timeline that I get confused. The 853 gets an adjustment of 18.52 and the 720 gets an adjustment of 33.33. What do these adjustments actually represent? Is it a percentage, a number of pixels, something else? When I read about it in the Manual it seems to state that FCE adjusts for the difference between the still and sequence, but then why does it adjust the 720 since it has the same pixel aspect as the sequence? I then tried changing the Pixel aspect of the 853 in the browser to NTSC and moving it to the timeline. I get the same 33.33 adjustment. The 33.33 does not look correct in either of them, but when I change it to 18.52 it looks correct (with the pixel aspect at square, with it not checked it looks "skinny" or squished).
Only thing I can think is that it has something to do with the anamorphic adjustment and the squeezing that goes on with it as 18.52 as 853 (widescreen) is 18.47 percent wider the 720.
At this point I am really not sure how these will display when I make a dvd and display on a widescreen tv. I would prefer not to do this by guessing or looking at the picture, but instead by understanding what FCE is doing and making sure I have the settings and adjustments correct.
Sorry for the long message, but would really appreciate any advice

Michael,
sorry to disagree, but for sure I was not clear, and the topic is quite complex. So I decided to provide an overview (as much as I can...) of the various combinations of clips inserted into various sequences with all settings - possibly on my web site (I'm afraid other posters are getting bored about all this math).
But since this is taking quite a bit of time, let me just tell you now where I disagree about your findings. When I'll have my overview completed I hope that will better explain what I mean.
_Your point 1_.
I'm pretty sure you (unwillingly) are importing your 16:9 square pixel NTSC clip into a +4:3 CCIR pixel NTSC sequence+ (not your original 16:9 anamorphic NTSC sequence). Please check your sequence settings by selecting the sequence in the browser in list view and reading the Frame Size, Pixel Aspect, and Anamorphic fields.
a. If your sequence is in fact +4:3 CCIR pixel NTSC sequence+, by applying the formulas you get:
- PARclip for +16:9 square pixel NTSC+ clip = 853/853 = 1 (as for any square pixel clip)
- but PARseq is not 1 (as you write) but 640/720 (square/actual pixels) = 0,8888
- Adjust = PARseq/PARclip = 0,8888/1 = 0,8888.
- Since Adjust is <1 Motion Aspect Ratio = - 100* (1/0,8888 -1) = -12,5 as you experienced on FCE. BTW this means that the imported clip has to be squeezed vertically by 12,5% (as opposite of horizontally).
b. If your sequence instead really is +16:9 anamorphic NTSC+ as you seem to imply, then 18,52 is correct as you confirm yourself with "Agree that in the four cases you list it agrees...": it is in fact the 2nd case in my 4 cases list.
_Your point 2_.
Here I suppose the sequence is +16:9 CCIR pixel NTSC+ which has PARseq = 853/720 = 1,1852.
But I'm not clear what you mean by "720/640 NTSC clip". My guess is that you mean a +4:3 CCIR pixel NTSC+ clip,
then PARclip = 640/720 (square/actual pixels) = 0,8888
then Adjust = PARseq/PARclip = 1,1852/0,8888 = 1,3333 and Motion Aspect Ratio = 100*(1,3333 - 1) = 33,33 as you experienced
_Adjust formula_.
I think this formula in your earlier message is incorrect: Aspect Ratio (in Motion/Distort) = - 100 * (1/Adjust-1) if Adjust ≤ 1; seems like the formula: Aspect Ratio (in Motion/Distort) = 100 * (Adjust-1) if Adjust ≥ 1 works at all times including <1 as follows 100*(.875-1)=-12.5.</div>
This not true (well it is true only for Adjust = 1...). As an example if Adjust = 0,8888 then 100*(0,5-1) = -11,12 (wrong value for this pixel adjustment), while -100*(1/0,8888-1) = -12,51 which is the correct vertical squeeze !!
Why 2 different formulas are needed ? because when Adjust is >1 a +horizontal squeeze+ by Adjust is necessary to fix the pixel aspect ratio misalignement, when Adjust is <1 a +vertical squeeze+ is necessary by 1/Adjust... (figures will help as soon as they are ready for... publishing).
I'm sorry these posts are so long, I try to make them as clear as possible, but the topic is a bit messy and, even if only fractions are involved in this math, their actual meaning is not always intuitive...I'd really appreciate any comment also by more experienced users of FCE/FCP...
Thanks
Piero

Understanding aspect ratios in FC and Photoshop

Hi all. Two questions regarding aspect ratio:
1. I'm editing with footage from a Canon MK2 camera. My computer tells me the footage is 1920 X 1080 but it looks 16/9. Why is that?
2. When I make a still (Tiff) in Final Cut from the same footage and bring it into Photoshop, it says image size 1440 X 1080, but it looks 4:3. Why? What is the best way to get the picture back into 16/9 - a. change image size to 1920 X 1080 b. leave image size as is and change pixel aspect ratio to HDV 1080 (1.33), or c. some method I haven't tried? Methods 1 and 2 appear to fix the problem and the results are practically identical. But I'm confused about the process and would like to understand these numbers.
Thanks in advance for help.

1. Because 1920:1080 = 16:9 (1920/16=120 120x9=1080)
2. Because your sequence settings are 1440x1080 which is anamorphic.
b makes the most sense to me as a fix.

Inserting clip into sequence: aspect ratio adjustments

I just made this page Aspect Ratio Adjustments available to whoever is curious to know what is the rational behind the values of +Aspect Ratio+ and Scale evaluated by FCE whenever it inserts a clip into a sequence.
This was inspired by Michael in his thread Still Photo Aspect Ratio Confusion: the topic is a bit complex to be handled with a Q&A approach. So I tried to summarize the results of various tests I made, with 3 examples showing step by step what logically happens in FCE in this process (what really happens... is a different matter). All results were tested in FCE 4, but this doesn't mean there are no errors or misinterpretations. So any comment is really welcome.
Piero

Thanks Martin,
if you have any suggestion to make it clearer or more complete, please...
BTW have you ever read the document Computer Industry Mass Confusion on Pixel Aspect Ratio?
From this document (that seems to me pretty complete and written by people that know what they are talking about...) and my experience on the FCE "aspect ratio adjustment" behavior, I would conclude that FCE does not use the "correct" pixel aspect ratio definition, whatever is, but the simplified one based on the 640/720 and 768/720 fractions (for 4:3 frames)...
What's your opinion ?
Piero

IPhoto slideshow has wrong aspect ratio for iMovie and/or FCP

When I output a slideshow at 720x480 from iPhoto then import it into iMovie or FCP, the images are stretched vertically. I can adjust the ratio in FCP (-10 seems to be a good number), but there is no fix for iMovie. I like the iPhoto slideshow capability and prefer using it for my slideshows. What do I do to get an unstretched QT for import into iMovie or FCP?
AGP Powermac G4 Mac OS X (10.4.4)

You're encountering a difference between rectangular DV pixels and square "computer screen image" pixels.
When working with DV timelines, the best way to get good frame grabs would be to export your 720 x 480 still, then re-size it to 640 x 480 using Photoshop. (BTW, you can use a Photoshop batch function to re-size multiple images automatically.)
If you're starting with a timeline that only contains square-pixel (not DV video) images, try this:
Sequence > Settings > General Tab
Pixel Aspect Ratio: Square
Now:
Open a clip in the Viewer window, and look under
Motion Tab > Distort Pane
Aspect Ratio should = 0
[Under certain conditions, FCP makes educated guesses as to the pixel aspect ratios of imported images, and uses this setting to automatically apply corrective distortion when it believes it is necessary. Usually it is correct, but under unusual circumstances like your project, you may have to correct FCP's correction.]
The fastest way to confirm this would be to
Select All
Ctrl-Click
Remove Attributes
Check "Distortion"
[If it is greyed out it means that none of your clips have any distortion applied so you are good to go.]
Now you can export un-distorted frames from a square-pixel timeline, and shouldn't experience any pixel-aspect ratio confusion.
Good luck,
Zap

Maintaining Photoshop aspect ratios in After Effects

Hi there,
I'm new to adobe programs...
I'm having a problem when i try to import a 720 x 540 photoshop image into After Effect at the same ratio. After establishing the same settings, my image in AE is slightly cut off at the sides (along the width), as if pillarboxed just barely. There's an outline around the image that seems like it maybe be closer to the 720 X 540 aspect ration, but i don't know how to make the image fill it up.
Any suggestions?

I your AE comp is 720 X 540 square pixels and your Photoshop file is 720 X 540 square pixels then the frame sizes match. If your AE comp is NOT square pixels or your Photoshop file was set to a non square pixel aspect ratio then AE will make the adjustments and you will see some distortion.
You need to learn about pixel aspect ratios and you need to make sure that the source footage is properly interpreted. 720 X 540 is the old standard for NTSC 4:3 square pixels and it will fit perfectly in a 720 X 486 rectangular pixel composition if you're using a pre CS version of AE. The new standard for NTSC square pixels with a 4:3 picture ratio is 720 X 534. This will translate perfectly into a 720 X 486 frame. Unfortunately DV video and most DVD formats are limited to 720 X 480 so 6 scan lines are lost. The playback device strips them off anyway so there not really missed.
To make your life easier just always plan on using the standard presets for your compositions and make all of your artwork square pixels. AE will properly interpret any DV footage you may import and will maintain a completely distortion free workflow. You can then use the Adobe Media encoder to render your deliverable DV or DVD product.
I hope this clears things up a bit. Pixel aspect ratios confuse everyone at first.

HDV Aspect Ratio and Exporting For the Web

INTRODUCTION
I am trying to export an HDV video for the first time and have managed to confuse myself. I want to upload it to blip.tv and they transcoded videos into Flash with 4:3 aspect ratio. But more than that, I want to understand how this all works so I don't have to guess about the settings that will give me what I want.
BACKGROUND DATA
4/3 is 1.333...
16/9 is 1.777...
1440/1080 is 1.333... (if the pixels are square)
1920/1080 is 1.777... (if the pixels are square)
In FCP my clip format says:
Frame Size: 1440 x 1080
Pixel Aspect: HD (1440 x 1080) (Does this mean the pixels are 1.333... times wider than it is high?)
EXPORT USING QUICKTIME CONVERSION
When I go to export this clip using Quicktime Conversion under the Options... Size... dialog and look at the Dimensions dropdown, (I assume this is the dimensions of the exported video. Is that correct?)
Some of the settings are (the settings are in quotes, my notes are in parentheses.):
"HD 1440 x 1080 16:9" (if pixels are square this is 4/3)
"HD 1920 X 1080 16:9" (if pixels are square this is 16/9)
So both of these settings claim to be 16:9 but they both can't be true unless they have different pixel aspect ratios (which I find hard to believe). This makes me think I don't really know what they mean when they notate something as 16:9. Can anyone give a definition that will help me here?
EXPORTING FOR THE WEB
Using FCS2, what settings should I use to export this clip undistorted for the web (with letterbox if needed)?
Thanks for the help,
Rob:-]

What I find with HDV 16x9 1440x1080 footage, is that when you output for the web you have to hard code the size you want the result to be. 320x180 or 640x360 for example scale things nicely. If you want bigger, just do the math.
I don't know why but whenever I select a predefined output size, it always screws it up (I don't work with 4:3 ever, so I'm speaking only of 16x9). So I always enter the size I want.
And as far as Compressor 3, I really can't get that to set the size I want correctly either. Mostly its due to me being lazy and not wanting to spend a year reading the Compressor manual. A package that should basically have the easiest interface known to man is now so complicated that unless I have to hand-holding tutorial, or get to drag/drop one of their presets, I end up screwing things up with it. Not to mention that you get to wait for hours just to see how you screwed up the settings of your output.

Aspect Ratio HDV clip from FCP to After Effects

Can someone help me with exporting from FCP an HDV clip to After Effects? What I am doing is trying to export an HDV clip from FCP to AE but when I import it into AE the aspect ratio is all off. I have an HDV 1080i50 easy setup timeline and I am exporting from that as a quicktime movie (not conversion) with the current settings. When I bring that into AE I have a HDV comp set up and I drop the FCP movie into that comp. My FCP movie is 1920 X 1080 and is bigger thant the AE HDV Comp. Why? Shouldn't the sizes be the same since they are HDV? Please help
Tim

HDV is 1440 x 1080 native so if you have output from FCP that is 1920 x 1080 it is being misinterpreted by AFX.
Try creating a new comp in AFX using the HDV easy setup but set the frame size to 1920 x 1080 manually and see what that does.

Wrong aspect ratio (4:3) HDV files (16:9)

Hi!
I'm using iDVD 5.0.1.
My source video is HDV 1080i.
iDVD preview shows 16:9 aspect, but my burned DVD disks played in Apple DVD Player and regular DVD players are displaying 4:3 aspect ratio... (on 4:3 and 16:9 TV sets)
How can I fix this problem?
regards
andrzej
G5 2x2 Mac OS X (10.4.3)
G5 2x2 Mac OS X (10.3.6)

Thanks for info but I'm importing HDV 1080i (1920x1080) file from Final Cut5, not from iMovie...
The file has already aspect ratio of 1.777777 (16:9)
Of course I can recompress it to DV anamorphic codec (in QT Pro) and degrade even more image quality but it's worst scenario...
regards
andrzej
G5 2x2 Mac OS X (10.4.3)
G5 2x2 Mac OS X (10.3.6)

AME Export from HDV source: Pixel aspect ratio squeezed in Queue; ok in direct export.

I have some existing HDV footage that was converted to Cineform codec (CFHD) in an .avi file that I need to export. My target requires Windows media format (.wmv Window Media video 9).
My output settings are the following:
640x480, square pixels, 29.97, lower, VBR, 2 pass unconstrained, 800 kbps.
When I export these files in a sequence directly from Premiere Pro CC (Export button), the pixel aspect ratio looks correct. (It looks ok in Premiere and in the Premiere Export window, too.)
When I export using the Queue button in Premiere to AME CC, the video renders out squeezed, as if the aspect ratio is ignored.
I can also see the squeezed video in the AME preview window when the file is rendering.
This worked OK previously in Premiere 5.5.
Is there a setting that controls this and allows normal rendering from the Queue?
Using the Queue is much preferred to avoid bottlenecks in workflow.
System: Windows 7 enterprise 64 bit, Lenovo W510, Core i7, 16GB ram.
Nvidia Quadro FX 880M
Premiere Pro CC: 7.2.1(4)
Adobe Media Encoder: 7.2.0.43 (64-bit)
Not sure if I am using the Mercury Playback Engine GPU Acceleration.
Thanks.

I'm using CC, updated today. (see system info at top).
I'm starting to wonder if the codec info is not read correctly when using the Queue (Cineform codec). I took your suggestions and created a new sequence with one clip and used the same settings. I opened the export settings window in two separate ways:
Export settings in Premiere (Ctrl M). All is good in the Source tab. PAR is interpreted correctly:
I sent the export to the queue, and from the job in AME clicked the "Custom" link to retrieve the same settings window.
However, the Source video PAR is not interpreted correctly:
This must be related to why the render from the AME queue is not correct.

DV-PAL pixel aspect ratio & Quicktime confusion...

Hi all,
Hoping someone can clarify some things for me! Here's the situation...
I'm extracting some clips from a DVD, for another editor to put together a showreel. The clips are all off the telly in 4:3. I extracted the clips using MPEG Streamclip, the Quicktime Export option and the Apple DV PAL codec 720 by 576.
First question - it offers me an 'unscaled' output option of 768 by 520. Why 768? Is this something to do with Quicktime only using square pixels and DV PAL video using rectangular?
Second question - Assuming the other editor will be using Final Cut to put the showreel together, which is the most convenient picture & pixel aspect ratio to provide the clips in? I know I can change the pixel a.r. if I drop the clips into a Final Cut timeline and fiddle with the sequence settings. Is that necessary or helpful?
I'm pretty sure the DV codec is the best to use for this exercise, but any thoughts welcome...
Cheers,
Ilan

It can be very confusing. Here's a great place to start....
http://documentation.apple.com/en/finalcutpro/usermanual/index.html#chapter=70%2 6section=13

Confused about pixel aspect ratio and video size

Hello,
I have edited a whole dvd full of video and exported it as MPEG-2 NTSC DV Wide - it says 720 x 480, 29.97 fps. I have brought these into Encore and am trying to make a menu but can't seem to get the menu size right. Since I chose the wide format when making the video, which aspect ratio should I use in Encore? It gives me a choice in the properties menu, but when I go to Project settings it says Codec: MPEG-2 Dimensions 720 x 480. Whenever I bring in a menu background from photoshop, it doesn't fit, and is further complicated by the pixel aspect ratio thing. I have no idea what my background size should be to make it fit properly - the templates seem to all be the 4:3 size. What size should I be using in Photoshop and which pixel aspect ratio?
Is my video codec going to cause me a problem in Encore? I assumed that most tvs nowadays are widescreen (at least not square), so I should do the video wide as well.
Thanks for any help! I am thoroughly confused.

Use a template menu from Encore's library. Then modify as you need. That way you know that it will be the right pixel size and par. You cannot made an incorrectly sized/par'd menu work by setting it to 16:9 or 4:3 in the menu properties. It must be correct, and if so, Encore will usually pick the correct setting.
The Encore project settings for DVD really have no choices: it has to be 720x480 for NTSC. There is no project setting for par. You have to create the menu correctly - just let Encore do that for you by using a template.
Was your video source widescreen? If so, then you'll be fine on your video. If not, you may need to sort that out also.

Aspect Ratio Messed Up? Black Bars?

Greetings folks,
I'm trying to make a SD DVD from 1080p footage. I used Apple's Compressor to make 720x480 m2v and ac3 files for a few short clips I am putting on the DVD.
I'd like to use a Button transition when I click to view a certain clip (a 3 second video) that plays before the main clip.
However, since Encore doesn't allow you to use two separate files (an audio and a video file) for a Button transition, I've tried simply importing a high quality 1920x1080 video file into encore from AME.
The problem is that the Button transition video has black bars on the side, and I've tried my hardest to figure out why it is doing this. I've even tried exporting from AME at 720x480, and Encore persists in placing these black bars on the side.
If I export a ac3 and m2v from Compressor (or a wav with AME) I can only use the audio or the video for the Button transition. I want both.
Does anyone have a solution to this problem? I'd like all my videos, including my Button transitions, to fill the screen.

Hi Stan,
Thank you for your reply, I'll explain more in depth what my issue is.
I used Compressor for the DVD files because I'm more familiar with it.
However, since a Button Transition only allows you to select one file, I exported a high quality Quicktime file 1920x1080 and imported that into Encore with the assumption it would transcode during the burning process.
I exported this file from Adobe Media Encoder from a timeline directly from Premiere, and tried a number of combinations. I tried selecting "scale to fill" or "stretch to fill" and even exported at 720x480 (the supposed dimensions of the DVD in Encore) but this generated a "wrong pixel aspect ratio" error.
I couldn't do "Transcode Now" on the file because apparently the "asset was not in use" even though it was serving as a transition.
Is there a way to apply "scale to fill" in Encore? Is it something you do in the transcode settings for the project?

Confused by PAL aspect ratio

Hi,
I'm creating an animation from a series of CGI stills to be eventually outputted as a DV-PAL quicktime movie for use on a DVD to be played on a PAL system.
I'm struggling to understand what aspect ratio I should be saving my stills as - the table and instructions on pages 796-798 of the FCE manual suggest I should start with a still at 4:3 ratio (768 x 576 pixels), and then squash it to 720 x 576 pixels to compensate for PAL stretching it in the other direction during export.
However, when I bring the clips into my sequence, they don't match the aspect ratio of the sequence on the canvas (which seems to be 4:3). The end result seems to be a pillarbox effect of the final animation, rather than seeing the stills stretched back to 4:3 ratio.
Do I also need to set up the aspect ratio of the sequence to match my converted files? Or is there a way of applying PAL's aspect ratio to the clip once it's in Final Cut Express?
Any help gratefully received!!
Derek

i never tried so it's not 100% sure, but this would be the way i would do and i am pretty sure it will work.
if your final goal format is PAL what you should import the animation with a 4:3 ratio (768x576).
then export from the FC export as quicktime movie and then load it on idvd or dvd studio pro. this programs will automatically encode your video to PAL or NTSC (you can choose between this two) with the 720x576 you want.
or you can export to quicktime conversion and choose DV stream -> PAL and then import to idvd or DvdSP, thus you will loose resolution because you are converting and compressing several times, so for better results export to quicktime movie.
tell us if it worked
cheers!
Message was edited by: ilucena

Complete Confusion with Aspect Ratio...

My movie is 4:3
original DV File: 568 x 576
importing to Event and Project gives: 720 x 576
Then exporting with E - overview gives a to expected result: 768 x 576
The Final result in Quicktime finally is - oh wonder: 787 x 576
hmmm, my question is:
For the website i need a width of 580 or 588. resizing in Compressor or Quicktime MP4 export also gives different results...
Can someone tell me the best setting, and by the way: at which stage i get rid of these ugly interlacing lines?
When all done i move on to 16 : 9 - wish me luck...
My videos are on http://www.drummerworld.com
Bernhard

DV has this weird thing: pixels aren't square. That is why, although PAL DV actually has 720x576 pixels, like Tom said, the correct 4:3 aspect ratio corresponds to 768x576 (I'm sure 568 was a typo, Bernhard meant 768).
If you do a "get info" on a DV movie in Quicktime Player you may get something like this:

Aspect ratio confusion HDV + DV = mess

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