CMYK/RGB concerns in InDesign

Hi,
I am using InDesign to create a poster which will be printed on an A0 printer in my college.
As far as I can make out, one should work in RGB if printing on a home ink jet printer as these automatically convert to CMYK and you don't want to convert twice.
So my first issue is that I do not know the details of the printer that will be used and if it converts to CMYK, so which should I use. Also, I will convert to PDF first - does this effect the colour profile?
Secondly, I have some images which when placed in InDesign suffer badly from the RGB->CMYK conversion (bright purples/blues going dark). What is the best way of getting around this? If I turn on Colour Management to preserve embedded profiles it makes no difference. I've also tried using a desaturation sponge in Photoshop with little success.
I've searched everywhere for help on this but I'm still rather confused. Any advise would be much appreciated,
Brian
Details: InDesign CS Version 3.0.1. Windows XP SP 2.

Thanks Peter, I've got the profiles installed now.
With regard to rendering intent - does that change the document I already have open or will it only come into play if I import new files into it?
With regards monitor - I'm unfortunately working on an old CRT (connected to the only machine I have with CS) which I can't fix with Adobe Gamma as I need to reduce the contrast and adjust the brightness higher than it will go to set the colours correctly.
But I will check it on a new Vista laptop I have which seems to have an option in the control panel for loading profiles.
I presume that when I export to pdf it sets the colour permanently as I had it at time of export?
I can't be too fussy as I'm a bit red/green colour-blind so it's not likely to look exactly the same to others anyway! :(
EDIT: Forgot to say: When I have a colour profile loaded - When I turn on either "Proof Colours" or "Overprint preview" it makes my document look very dark (e.g. whites go grey). But if I turn them both on together it looks normal again. However no matter what state it's in when I export to pdf it comes out normal again.
I guess the reason it goes darker has to do with "white" just being a lack of ink and so if you put on one layer at a time the transparency wouldn't work and the backroung shows through.
If I see a white box in the pdf can I trust that it will print as white?

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Is there a way to automatically populate a text-box with target object's colour values (CMYK, RGB, HEX, etc.)?

I know there's image metatext, but I'd like to know if it's exclusive for images. When I set up my branding colour scheme I usually come up with about 25 different colours, so it's kind of a chore to go ahead and fill in the Pantone, CMYK, RGB and HEX values for each one of them. Is there an easy way to do this? If not in InDesign, is there a way to do it in Illustrator?
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The only problem is it only fills in the RGB values
Looks like the script label is the swatch's actual color values, which can be Lab, CMYK, or RGB (not Hex). The problem with equivalents is which flavor? If you want the RGB equivalent of a CMYK swatch do you mean sRGB, AdobeRGB, ProPhoto RGB, etc., they would all be different.

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This results in a different white colors on the pdf - InDesign CS5 doesn't do this. Can someone inform me how this can be solved easily?

Well during export to pdf the white balance of some pictures changes. This results in a pdf where white backgrounds of product shots become a different color. I clearly see it has something to do with the white balance but don't know what - tried already to export it as RGB of CMYK profile but the not all images of the same color coding (mix of RGB and CMYK saved visuals are used in one document).
When I save the files as idml and open it in CS5, the problem is gone. So since the switch to CS6, I have this issue and as you might imagine, this is not very pratical.

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oh yeah, I see... You definitely need a script, so you better post this request in script forum. Since it quite scriptable (I believe), you need to know exactly (tell to the script) what colors to find and change to what. So it would work only on the specific pre-defined list of colors. I'm using something very similar regarding the fonts (I get regularly files where I need to change bunch of fonts to their alternatives). Not sure if it's possible to modify it for colors - I see some essential differences here. I'm not a scripter...

RGB color in inDesign changes (washed out) after exporting it to PDF

Hi,
I am new to InDesign and i have a hard time figuring out how could I export my InDesign file to PDF without affecting the color.
This is what I do.
1. I created a new document with Transparency Blend Space set to Document RGB
2. I created a box using the rectangle tool and filled it up with RGB color, R=126 G=12 B=110
3. The color in Indesign is just how i wanted it, however, the problem arises when i export the file now to PDF
4. Instead of the color i wanted, the color was changed to a lighter color, or washed out.
5. THis happens even in text have the same RGB setting.
How could I export it to PDF with the same color, without being washed out?
I really appreciate your help on this. Thanks.

That sounds like the Color Picker, which works a bit differently in ID than in Illustrator or Photoshop. If the cursor is not in one of the RGB fields when you say OK you won't get RGB color. You can see this by noting the text in the Add ... Swatch button. My guess is you added the color as the CMYK conversion which is a bit lighter.
You might want to use the panel menu in the Swatches panel instead, or the new swatch button at the bottom of the panel while holding down the Alt key to open the new swatch definition dialog. You want to create a Process color and change the type to RGB, then enter the values in the RGB fields. Or if what you want is really Pantone 249U you can define a Spot swatch and choose Pantone Solid Uncoated and then specify the 249. I'll warn you though, that CS6 uses Lab values for displaying spot colors and 249U is considerably lighter than either the RGB you specified or the 249C. In earlier versions the book value conversions were used. Even when using Lab display values through Ink Manager in CS5, the coated and uncoated swatches incorrectly look the same in ID, and in Illustrator CS5 you would need to turn on overprint preview to see a difference.
Here are a couple of screen captures from PDFs exported from ID CS5 and CS6 using High Quality Print. The colored boxes with the lables were pasted from Illustrator CS5 to be sure I was using the same color definitions and that theywere behaving as native objects. Below are the same boxes placed:
and here is how the screen looked in CS6 in ID (notice the difference in the placed .ai file -- the screen preview is NOT using the Lab values, although it exports with them):
I don't know what the content is and how you present it, but it doesn't sound like a web page. That said, if you choose Web for intent in Document Setup you can still use print size paper sizes for the document and change the rulers after the doc is created to read inches or millimeters or other units of your choice instead of pixels and the file will use default RGB swatches and default to RGB when making new colors.

Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6

Hello everyone! Please give me someone an information about this issue...
All i have in indesign is cmyk color space in all contents, i have set up the transparency blending option to CMYK (edit > transparency blending > cmyk) but when i set the gradient feather on image 1 i have very bad result the transparency is greyscaled not transparent.
I try everything but nothin works for me, please help me somebody.
example 1 show the bad result in cmyk blending transparency
example 2 show the better result with rgb blending transparency with cmyk contents !!!
why i can not set the cmyk transparency blending option? because i have bad result and i do not uderstand that

please explain me the difference in this proces because i do not understand that...
The effect of transparency changes depending on the color mode, that's why you get this warning when you try to change color modes in Photoshop when there is transparency:
I can replicate your problem in Photoshop by layering transparent black on an RGB and CMYK version of the same image (Here are the 2 example files—http://www.zenodesign.com/forum/TransExample.zip) :
InDesign makes things even more complex because you can have different transparent color modes on the same page and you can choose different blending spaces. If color is important I take the extra time to create transparency in a Photoshop RGB file where there's more color contol and I can see the affect of a CMYK conversion and flattening.

CMYK/RGB/Pantone: Which one to use?

I am not a graphic designer by training but just started a job which requires me to get up to speed (and fast!) on creating collateral from scratch all the way to printing. As you can probably imagine, I've been reading forums, books, and watching video tutorials to learn as fast as possible. That said, I still don't have a definitive answer for the following questions:
When creating documents that will be posted online and printed:Should I create it in a RGB or CMYK color profile?
RGB has a wider color gamut than CMYK…so is it just safer (for consistency) to always create documents in CMYK color profile (and convert to RGB for online PDFs later...or is it even necessary to convert?)?
On the other hand, RGB is able to show pictures more vibrantly...so is it better to create documents in RGB and convert to CMYK for print? What about out of gamut colors (do you have to adjust "by eye" to get it as close as possible)?
Can you be in a situation where you have a CMYK document profile but the colors or photos are in RGB color space? And vice versa?
If the company’s logo colors must be as accurate as possible, do you recommend using Pantone colors in a document that needs to be printed? (on that note, what is the difference between Pantone spot and Pantone process?)
Converting color profiles:Do you convert the whole document from RGB to CMYK (or vice versa) or convert each bit of colored text and artwork individually?
I know this is a bit all over the place, but thank you so much for your help!

Hi,
You'd better make your work in a reasonably wide mode but keeping an eye in the most likely output ways. That is: You'd better work with a reasonable editing RGB space but you have to visualize (softproof) constantly what you are doing in the kind of colour you're going to print at the end. So, if have pictures in Adobe RGB or sRGB for a litho offset job in coated paper that is best described with... lets say SWOP Coated blah. blah... You work the picturtes in that RGB space but you softproof your work with that particular CMYK color space before converting anything. And nowadays you usually convert only if your printer gives you the OK to use that CMYK profile to make a ready for print PDF. All this said taking for granted you are working in a reasonably decent screen that has been calibrated with some kind of colorimetre (and they are cheap enough. If you don't have one, go get it).
Forget about vibrant colors and what you see in screen. WYSIWYG is a myth in this sense. You've to think What I See Is What Is Will Print (As Crappy As It Might Be). Some print modes are good (coated offset) and some are ****** (newsprint). Such is printing life. The sooner you realize your limits the better results you'll get with the tools at hand.
InDesign is ready to deal with documents that have pieces in some different color spaces. No trouble... as long as you view them all in the same softproof mode... You'll be using the One Ring of the Proper Viewing Space.
Special inks (Pantone spot colors) are a powerful tool but they can be used only when the budget and the printing conditions make that use sensible. Use them sparingly but without fear, show your colours then.
If you are using a mixed color spaces document with many pages (InDesign typical situation), you convert everything just at the end when makin the final PDF... Unless you have some special pictures or pieces you want to deal with special care. Then you make by hand conversion taking extracare no to lose anything you want to keep. It's a question of workflow: Labour time against quality in balance.
If you have to convert images, that is done in Photoshop with, as I said, the proper use of spftproffing. You may find, for instance, in a situation where you prefer to lose some tones in the blues to keep some shades in a red robe... But there is masking for that as well.
Lots of things to learn in this trade. Welcome to hell ;P
Gustavo (Posting from quite sunny Madrid)

Matching Raster and Vector RGB color in InDesign CS3.

We print on a Durst Lambda RGB imaging device to photographic paper. All color management is done as an early bind (raster files are converted to the printer's color space and vector colors are chosen from a palette database). So basically the files must go through InDesign without any color change in raster or vector information. We have clients that require specific RGB builds for logo colors the are present in both their raster and vector files.
Color Management is set to "North American General Purpose 2" with "RGB: Preserve Embedded Profiles" selected.
1) The file is exported as a PDF 1.4, High Quality, PDF/X_None.
2) The PDF was ripped on a Cheetah RIP (Jaws level 3) with no color management on.
3) Solid raster colors such as 0-255-0 will reproduce as 0-255-1.
4) The color differences between the raster and vector are usually 1-4 points.
5) The vector is consistent as was input in the programit's only the raster that changes. When you are trying to match raster and vectors logo colors it is a killer.
However, I can go into the InDesign (or Illustrator) color settings and turn color management off (This is our current workflow). In doing this the RGB working space uses the monitor profile and "color management policies" are set to OFF. With these settings the RGB raster and vector match. The problem with this work flow is two fold:
1) We have other devices than our RGB Durst Lambda that can use the InDesign color managementVutek flat bed 3200 and grand format 3360.
2) We have had many occurrences where the custom "color management off" settings have reverted back to the default "North American General Purpose 2"without any intervention.
I have tried this with different RIP's with the same results.
Does anyone have an idea to create a simple PDF workflow and keep the color information consistent?
Program: InDesign CS3 5.0.2
Platform: Mac OS 10.5.2
Computer: G5 tower with 4 gigs of RAM

I believe that setting is an old Illustrator setting that has been saved to effectively turn the color management off. The monitor profile effects the image displayedit doesn't effect the color transform.
Anyway, the color management I want to use is the "North American General Purpose 2".
To reiterate:
The procedure:
1) The file is exported as a PDF 1.4, High Quality, PDF/X_None.
2) The PDF was ripped on a Cheetah RIP (Jaws level 3) with no color management on.
The Problem:
3) Solid raster colors such as 0-255-0 will reproduce as 0-255-1It changes from the original raster color placed in InDesign.
4) The color differences between the raster and vector are usually 1-4 points.
5) The vector is consistent as was input in the programit's only the raster that changes. When you are trying to match raster and vectors logo colors it is a killer.
To summarize, the color of the raster file will change from the original that was place into the documenteven though nothing was selected in InDesign that would change the color (i.e. profile conversion to an output profile or a transparency effect used). The change is slightbut there.

Converting from pantone to cmyk color mode in Indesign CS3??

I am working on a business card for a customer, I am using Adobe Indesign CS3.
I use an outside company for the printing job called 4over (4over.com) and they require you use their cmyk pdf print engine so they can do the job properly... Basically to break it down: I am in Indesign CS3, I choose Print, and as the printer I choose their "4over pdf cmyk print engine" so the colors do not convert and the color doesnt change when they use their printers.
4over is telling me my document is in pantone color mode, they can see the pantone color 371C, but not the cmyk values.
How do I change from pantone color mode to cmyk color mode???
if anyone can help me please. I would really appreciate it.
I attached the file I sent to 4over incase that helps anyone answer my question.
Thank you,
Brandon

Before exporting, in the swatch panel, select your Pantone colour, right click and select swatch options. Change the color type to Process and the color mode to CMYK.
If it's a business card and you showed the client a pantone swatch, know that you won't get the same colour results. There's a very useful Pantone book available that shows swatches side by side with CMYK values.
http://www.pantone.com/pages/products/product.aspx?pid=283&ca=1&s=4

Converting CMYK to Spot Color (InDesign/Illustrator)

I have come across a client that have sent files built in process or CMYK. We want to make it a 2 color job (2 spot colors) but they have not chosen colors. What is the most effective way to determine the spot color that matches the CMYK procees within InDesign/Ilustrator. If it easier to do on one of the 2 programs I am completely open to using either.

You can do it with Photoshop. Click the Foreground color picker, enter the CMYK values, choose Color Libraries, select the Pantone book you want to reference, and the closest ink will be displayed. Keep in mind that the appearance of CMYK depends on the document's color profile or the Color Settings' CMYK Working space if nothing is open. So, for example US Sheetfed Coated will likely return a different Pantone color than US SWOP Coated.

Acrobat 9 - Export pictures (CMYK RGB)

Hello,
several days ago i upgrades my old Acrobat 6&7 (i have 4 licences in use) to the 9 version 9.
During my tests of the most used functions, i found a big problem refering the most used Feature "Export all pictures".
Every month i export picures from several 1000 PDFs. About 95% of the pictures in the PDFs are in CMYK colormode, caused by the fact that i need RGB pictures i used the option for conversion to RGB.
Unfortunatly 90% of the PDFs/pictuures have no ICC-profil, so i used the Colormanagemnt-Prefenrences in Acro 7 to define the cmyk color source and the RGB diestionation profil (sRGB).
In Acrobat 9 there is no effect to the pictures by changing the colorpreferences - i changed nearly everytheing but the exportet RGB-pictures are far away from the result i want to have an Acro 7 gives me.
So i tested a little bit:
- files whith DDF/X-outputintend: no effect (ugly picture again)
- output as CMYK-pictures: picture look very well
- tagged the picture itself inside the PDF whith an CMYK-ICC-profil: correct colorspaceconversion while outputting them as RGB-pictures
- Converting the pictures from cmyk to rgb inside the PDF via Printproduktion > Convert colors: correct conversion
So what do i do wrong? Do i missing some new features (the Acrobat helps offers nothing) or is this a bug.
Thanks for every help or hint.
System: Windows XP SP3, Acrobat 9 Pro incl. Pitstop 08 update 4
Kind Regards
Klaas Posselt

Problem Solved but Thanks!

Creating a CMYK/RGB/HEX/PMS Swatch Library

I'm trying to create a Swatch Library with all of the above mentioned colour spaces.
But when I'm trying to create a CMYK swatch in an RGB document colour mode, after I create the swatch (95/95/25/10) and add it to the swatch library when I click on the swatch it opens the swatch in the RGB mode or when I switch it over to CMYK, the colour has shifted (to say 94.67/93.3/24.9/9.75).
I would ideally like to have all of these colour spaces in one library, instead of having to create 2 different libraries: One a 'print' version and the other a 'digital'?

A swatch library will be either CMYK or RGB depending on the document color mode you create it in.

Command-Click Channel Icon Selects inverse in CMYK/RGB channels?

Photoshop CS4, Mac, PPC OS 10.5.8.
When i command+click on a channel icon to select the contents of a channel in CMYK or RGB mode, it selects the white/highlights instead of the shadow/content of the channel. The opposite is true when I command+click on spot color channels.
I'd like to be able to command+click, say, on the cyan channel and have my selection be the contents of the cyan channel rather than the white/absence of cyan. What am I missing? I know I can command+click, then select inverse, but why is the behavior different between CMYK and spot channels, and is there any way to change the behavior?

Not just looking at the marquee. If I copy the contents of the selection to another channel it is definitely the inverse of the channel that I've command+clicked. Not having any actual problems selecting with the usual selection tools.

'Import PDF' issues. Random CMYK / RGB profiling.

I batch rasterize PDF (illustrator) files in Photoshop regularly. I select all the art-boards I want to rasterize and select a color profile ... typically CMYK or RGB. Today, when I rasterized 6 art-boards (all at the same time) and selected "RGB" ... half of them rasterized RGB and half rasterized in CMYK.
Has anyone experienced this issue before?

Kevin Wick wrote:
I'm curious too if anyone else is having an issue with the loupe in Aperture 3.1.
I noticed I was getting false reading when checking color as well. The numbers were way off as you have expressed or did not read at all in a vertical images. Where as the number under the histogram seem to be correct when checking numbers. From what I've seen here it must be a issue with other or they must be using their loupe.
K-
Hey there Kevin, I'm sure we will talk on the phone again before you read this!
I'm using this as a work around for now but, what a bummer! I've tried to see if the issue is present on my other machines and using other cameras and - it still is. Since no one else has chimed in here to share if they are experiencing these loop issues, I'm wondering if it is just you and me. Maybe no one really uses the loop with color values to color correct their images.

CMYK RGB confusion

Recently I have had to get myself involve in work for print and coming from a digital background I have a very a very tenuous grip on the working of getting material ready for print.
Recently while scanning a forum on a totally unrelated subject I spotted these two quotes from two different people.
'unless you have experience preparing images for commercial print and your client has specified CMYK for offset printing DO NOT supply CMYK images - stick to RGB output.'
'yes i wouldnt use CMYK images.
because most/all printers have there own convertion algorithms so the printer will convert a CMYK image back to RGB then convert it back to CMYK.
so you will lose a bit of quality'
This confused me as I have always been told to supply CMYK. I have a very vague recollection that this has been mentioned to me before by a client but this is so vague it might as well have been a dream and was before I started getting involved with print. I just wondered if anyone could clear this up for me.
Thanks for any help.

Jim,
It's a bit of a free for all out there. The best course of action is to have a discussion with the printer you plan to use and get on the same page. They may insist on RGB or a certain flavor of CMYK. In general, though, I find that if I supply CMYK files, most printers usually just sends those files straight through, without doing any conversion. If they convert them and the color gets whacked, it may come back to haunt them. Some printers know how to handle and convert RGB files properly, and others do not. I've done a fair amount of this, and personally, I would always prefer to supply CMYK files so I control the conversion, but I'd have a discussion with the printer first or look for clear, precise specs (and preferably their custom CMYK profile) on their website (which many don't provide).
That's where the contract proof generated by the printer can come in handy. If you insist on a contract proof, then sign off on the color, placement, layout, etc, the printer has to hit that target on press within reasonable tolerances, otherwise you are eligible for a free reprint. Those tolerances can be fairly liberal, but decent printers usually come very close to matching their own proof.
As Rick McCleary mentioned on another thread on this forum.....we are neither 'here' nor 'there', but somewhere in between in the evolution of digital printing. That won't change fast, I'm afraid. Too much legacy equipment, approaches, etc.
Lou

CMYK/RGB concerns in InDesign

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