HDV: Rendering in ProRes or not ?

My project was shooted with a Sony Z1 camera in NTSC. I am planning to capture in HDV.
I `ve read various articles on the HD workflow like Ken Stone`s one on the subject.
http://www.kenstone.net/fcphomepage/hdv_timeline_to_sddvd.html
Also, in this thread:
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=8222386&#8222386
Ian R. Brown indicates:
The best way I found after extensive testing was to export the finished HDV >project directly to Compressor for encoding and burn in either DVDSP or Toast.
It's also the quickest way. I experimented with ProRes but apart from taking >considerably longer I did not see any improvement in quality.
My output is a SD DVD. My project has fades and fades in and out, very minor color corrections or even none, slow motions but no other effects.
Should I render in ProRes or not? What will be the benefits?
Thanks.

I've used the HDV workflow, and the Pro Res workflow, and both finish just fine to SD DVD. What was a pain for me using my JVC HDVcam and Deck was the strange interruptions in capturing using the 720p HDV settings. The clips would be broken into many small clips, sometimes right in the middle of a scene with a few frames not being captured. I've found that I get more continuity using the pro res 422 capture, but you don't get the capture control that you get with HDV capture. I can't tell a difference between the two codecs on a 47 inch HD TV.
Hope this helps.
Matt

Similar Messages

Export HDV rendered as ProRes 422?

I've searched the forum and can't find this topic specifically addressed, so here goes a new question.
Sequence is HDV (1080i60) which is set to render ProRes 422 (there's a reason for that, below as a note).
It's quite a long sequence (an hour and 20 minutes) with almost everything color corrected (just the FCP color corrector). So when I finally rendered "all", it took its own sweet time basically rendering everything. I checked the render files, and sure enough, they are ProRes 422, 1440x1080i as expected.
When I go to export, if I use "current setting" (not self contained) it writes everything again as an HDV file (kind of expect that) and doesn't use any of those costly (time and space) reference files; if I specify ProRes 422 like the render files (not self contained), is dutifully writes new files as well.
Is there any way to export this as a "reference" movie and have it use the render files it's already spent a bunch of time making? Either export takes about as much time to do as that rendering did originally on my G5 2.5 Quad: about 4 hours or more. Not to mention doubling the disk space requirement.
Note: the reason I used ProRes 422 rendering was that if I render in HDV (what I usually do), there are severe quality problems with parts of the movie; it seems that keyframed scaling and cropping cause a problem with HDV when it renders. INterestingly, the preview is fine, and ProRes 422 rendering is fine. and when I say quality problems, I mean extreme blockiness: like 16x16 blocks: it's awful and I think it is a bug (which I asked about here some time ago and go zero answers).
Eddie O
Message was edited by: Edward A. Oates
Message was edited by: Edward A. Oates

Everything that has already been rendered (prores 422) wants to get rendered again. I haven't determined what happens if I go ahead and let that render take place and then export from the ProRes 422 time line since the render takes a long time. Remember that the only reason that I need to do all of this is because if I render in the HDV time line using the sequence codec, I get problems that are there even if Quicktime opens the HDV render files. It's kind of a serious bug in FCP 6.0.2 which has not been addressed (I have sent it in as "feedback" some time ago).
I edit in HDV because it is fast enough for me and I don't "conform" (that is, render) until the end when I about 95% sure I'm done. So I use only 13GB/hour instead of about 50GB/hour. There are only a couple of places where I need > 1 stream (transitions between camera shots, a very few picture in picture effects).
I guess maybe the work flow for me (given my preference to save disk space for now) will be to edit in HDV until I get what I want, and then instead of "conforming," copy the sequence to a ProRes 422 time line and let that render. Hopefully, if I export that as a "reference" movie, it will use the render files as the reference files.
Thanks,
Eddie O
Message was edited by: Edward A. Oates

HDV Rendering

I have a sequence that I have verified all clip setting are same as track settings for video and audio.
I have added some color correction and speed change to the clip.
When I render video on it the window poping up says "Conforming HDV Video" which seems strange.
It is HDV already:
Z7U footage filmed at 1080i 24P on Tape.

Iain Anderson wrote:
Capturing direct to ProRes requires a Mac Pro and increases (3x) your data rate and storage requirements for no gain.
Umm...
Yes is is definitely a benefit of transcoding your HDV media to pro res before editing. As mentioned earlier the gain is better realtime performance for the reasons originally stated. If you make a change to any of the edits after the first render then you would have to re-render the clips to re-conform them to render files for realtime playback. With pro res you would not have to even render most of the edits in the first place.
Pro Res does not actually require a Mac Pro. Only if you're capturing to HD resolution video is it suggested that you need a Mac Pro. Other Mac systems may drop frames when capturing High Definition video in the ProRes 422 format.
And now the thread seems to be getting cluttered with OP which has a Mac Pro/FCS2, dr.dimento which has a Mac Pro with FCS3, and iMac guy that has an iMac with FCS2. So there's conflicting recommendations. For OP I recommend that they transcode to pro res before editing and dimento already knows about the benefits of creating a striped RAID for these reasons. iMac guy should get a Mac Pro, RAID and dedicated capture card if they want to edit HDV in realtime. If not be prepared for lots of rendering (and the large render files that accompany it).

Is there a Sony HDV 108050i to ProRes 108050i codec?

Hello all:
I'm having a busy day on the forum.
So here's the deal:
I have a Sony HDV-Z1U camcorder. I want to shoot in HDV 108050i (PAL) and I want to edit in ProRes 108050i.
The thing is I can't find a codec that will let me encode/capture HDV to (Sony) ProRes 50i. I can only find a codec to encode/capture at 60i.
Am I missing something?
Thanks...
A
Message was edited by: Adrian Smith4

the Panasonic GH1 can record both in AVCHD and MJPEG. With the hacked firmware the MJPEG datarate is currently running around 70mbit/s, which can handle a smooth gradient over about 14 stops. MJPEG is a contained video file that QuickTime can play, directly out of the camera, however to edit it, FCE needs to convert it to AIC, and this process degrades the shadow detail, and gradients break up.
But even with the AVCHD, currently running around 30mbit/s, and doing simple shots like of a live concert, I can see the same separation in gradients after conversion that are not present beforehand.
is that better? I am now also a bit puzzled by one of the AVCHD archives seeming to be damaged, as FCE says it has an "invalid directory structure".
t

Changing animation frame rate when rendering in photoshop does not change the length of the video?

I made a walk cycle animation in Photoshop CS6 and want to render it into a quicktime format. I'd like it to be 12 fps, but when I rendered it at 12 fps the video seemed to be missing frames, and the video was 3 seconds long. I have 98 frames to my animation; doing the math, at 12 fps it should be 8 seconds long. Not 3.
I was confused and for curiosity's sake I rendered the video at 6 fps, trying to really slow it down. The video ended up being STILL 3 seconds long and only maybe 20 frames. I was missing literally 70 frames. I'm so upset with this rendering thing, I could chuck my computer at the wall.
Does anybody know of a solution to this?
edit: If it means anything, I've tried rendering it straight from the frame view and the timeline view. Each time I render it I have the timeline frame rate match the rendering frame rate as well.

floriannaart wrote:
Changing animation frame rate when rendering in photoshop does not change the length of the video?
Photoshop CS6 and CC support two types of animation Frame animations and a Video Timeline
Changing the frame rate should not change the length of a video timeline. It should just change the number of frames that are rendered. To change the length of a video you need to change the length of the video timeline. If you increase the length of the timeline and there is audio I'm quite sure there will be a problem with it, The Video part will most likely be better then the sound. The required number of extra frames can be generated however the video may look like slow motion. If you decrease the length the motion will speed up. The length of a video is normally done be editing video clips which are trimmed and stitched together to get the desired duration. Not normally done by altering the duration of a clip.
The duration a of Frame animation is the sum of the times each frame is displayed. In a frame animation the length of time a frame is displayed can be varied it not a normal motion picture video. To have a smooth frame animation you need a sufficient number of frames that are different from each other to show smooth motion. You can use Photoshop Frame animation tween feature to have Photoshop manufacture frames to help with a smoothing the animation. Once you have a frame animation the length with the motion you want you can have Photoshop convert it to a video timeline and render a normal motion picture video. It will not have audio but you can add audio to it.

Rendering in ProRes from HDV

Hello all.
I've captured HDV into ProRes, and made a simple effect - I've distorted the image size to it would like 3D, in order to add slides (I was shooting a presentation with one camera - so I've shot the speaker, and now I have the slides as images. I've imported the images and would like to create the Apple event style look).
Rendering only one instance of that effect will take 2 hours ! Does it make sense? I have a Macbook pro, 2.4, 4GB, 256M graphic card. is rendering such a thing supposed to take so long? is there any way to reduce this rendering time?
Message was edited by: kfirPravda
Message was edited by: kfirPravda

I have a Macbook pro, 2.4, 4GB, 256M graphic card< </div>
That's not much power for what you're trying to do. Another factor is disk access. Do you have an external drive for these huge files? If you're using yoru internal, the read-process-write sequence is taking a huge time hit. If you had to external drives, one for the source media and another for the rendered media, disk access time alone would be cut almost in half.
Open Activity Monitor and see if you can make any sense out of the CPU and RAM usage graphs. Disk Activity is meaningless to me and I've not found an useful assistance for understanding that graph.
bogiesan

Should I xfer HDV 1440x1080i to ProRes 1440x1080p for editing and internet?

Hello:
I still get a bit confused about Pro Res, etc. So if anyone can point me in the right direction on this I'd be thankful.
I shot HDV video at 1440 x 1080i (interlaced) as that's the format my old-ish Sony HVR-Z1U (already shot, looks great - that's the camera I had so no lectures).
My question is should I transfer it to ProRes 1440 x 1080p (progressive) for editing and later encoding as h264 video for the web? Is there any advantage to doing this and if so at what stage should I do it?
Should I do before the edit? After the edit (and before the h264 encode)? Or is it necessary to do it all?
Final output is internet only.
Thanks in advance for any help or pointers

Good information. Many thanks.
On the contradictory element... I have heard (and occasionally practiced) that bringing in the video from tape as ProRes speeds up the editing process (doesn't take so long to render, etc.). I'm all for keeping things as simple as possible and keeping things native would be best - but don't you find it takes up more drive space and takes longer to render?
My project will be 20 mins in length when completed, and does involve some green screen chroma keying - so I'm up for anything that does not need constant re-rendering (which has been an issue when working with native/uncompressed HDV video).
Thanks again.
A

Recompress HDV Clips to ProRes

I have HDV clips (heaps of them, 1080i/50)and am thinking of recompressing to ProRes for output/rendering time-saving.
If I do this, does it convert the original captured clips from HDV to ProRes?
Am I right in thinking this would be a time saving method?
If I Choose only the clips in the Sequence to recompress, how does it manage to recompress sub-clips? Does it do the whole referenced clip?
Thanks in advance..

Hi MArk, I think you have your answre . I'd like to add that I have been using the HDV 1080/50i to PRORES422 as part of my workflow in FCS2 now because:
• it is much easier to work with than HDV in FCP iteself. This is subjective. Most scrubbing and editing in FCP 6 on this OCTO is smoother using the PRORESS sequqnce than leaving it as native HDV there are small overheads setting up and execting GOP editirs I understand.. especially in this case as HDV is MPEG2 LGOP).
• the CONFORMING to workflow and readiness for some distribution format (e.g. H.264 Multipass segmented transcode ) is demonstrably much faster in COMPRESSOR from APPLE PRORESS than HDV. Note I use QMASTER with VIRTUAL CLUSTERS on this OCTO.
My workflow is simply either to:
• ingest the HDV as HDV1080i/50 and THEN use an FCP BATCH export to maek all the footage I want into PRORES422 1440x1080P or 1080i (use HQ if you want) .. or
• set UP INGESt to encode the HDV on the fly as it ingests the HDV.
From a quality perspective as any one who knows will tell you you WONT get any iprovement in the HDV 4:2:0 by making it proress.. but for me the WORFLOW is much better .. especially o this DUAL QUADCORe beaty.
FWIW.. I am today of all days collecting an Panasonic HVX-200 to go to DVCPROHD (720p/24/25 and 1080p/24/25) AWAY finally from HDV. I'm dumping my 16 month old SONY HVR-Z1P for this reason
that I want to work on PRORESS and have MORE COLOUR info at 422 and now I can really take advantage of bothe apple color.app and my colorista.
anyway I hope that FCP tip helps..
w

Smart rendering for DNxHD quicktimes not working in Premiere Pro CC

Hi if I understand things correcty PPCC should be able to smart render DNxHD codec in a quicktime wrapper back . If so this does not appear to be working. I am noticing small differences if I pull in a DNxHD quickitme clip in to Premiere and just render straight back out again no effects just cuts as DNxHD Quicktime. My sequence is set up to be the same as the codec. Although I do notice that trying to set the exact settings for the quicktime codec is not easy as it resets back to the defaults of DNxHD 220 59.94i so maybe this has something to do with it and their is no option to choose the MXF setting for my medi a as Adobe have neglected to make a DNxHD115 preset.
If you look on the YC waveform you can see the changes occuring when you compare the two side by side. This however does not happen if you render out as Opt1a MXF as it does appear to smart render and when ingested back in you see no difference with the source DNxHD clip. I also notice that when you choose the Opt1a option it has an extra check box for smart rendering.
Anyone noticed this. It all works perfectly for ProRes quickitmes so just wondering why its not working for DNxHD quicktimes.
Simon

Hi Simon,
Here's what I have for you:
Smart Render support for DNxHD wrapped in QuickTime was added in Premiere Pro CC
You must have Avid codecs installed
No option to check to enable smart rendering is needed, Premiere Pro always tries to smart render by default
The first thing I would check is to see if the DNxHD (QuickTime) codecs are installed or not.
Thanks,
Kevin

HDV imported from After Effect not playing smooth

Hi,
I work with HDV footage from Sony V1E in FCP. For some reason, i need to do a few things in AE. I then export it there, work it out and rexport it from AE. There I use the HDV 1080/25fps quicktime compression. When I bring it back to FCp, it even shows as no need to be rendered on my TimeLine. But it doesn't play correctly at all. Like if it was to big or... i don't know... I can;t even render it since it appears as not needing it...
What can I do? Help would be very much appreciated...
Thx
Federico

If it looks good in AE then the aspect will be correct already (tends to get set incorrectly when using capture cards like decklink etc), have you tried forcing FCP to render the AE footage on the timeline (tick full in render all then press Option+R)? The HDV codec is really harsh, it could be the multi converting is introducing the error you are seeing. I tend to export using the animation codec, then re-render everything in FCP, not ideal when you have time constraints.
One last thought, have you checked the AE output setting has field rendering enabled or not, this is independent of the timeline setting.

AVC-Intra to Prores- or not?

I have a project that was shot AVC-Intra.
Can I use the native codec or should I convert files to prores 422?

AVCIntra NATIVE is an option in Log and Transfer. The issue is that there are no AVCIntra sequence settings. You'd have to use ProRes...so why not encode to ProRes so there is no rendering while editing?
You cannot use Compressor on P2 media...you have to bring it in via Log and Transfer.
Shane

Visual distortion after rendering (Apple ProRes)

When I use the share project "Master File" option and select any of the "Apple ProRes" options my final rendering has horazontal distortion lines that apear around moving objects.
My work around has been having to render using the share project "Email" option. Overall quality is not as good but I don't get the visual distortions.
Anyone else have this problem and found a solution. I find it a bummer that I can't use the built in compression options to render my movies.

Yes, your clips are interlaced. The 60i means 60 fields displayed at 29.97 frames per second.
My guess is what you're seeing is interlaced combing, which is typically visible in scenes with lots of motion, and is very distracting when displayed on a computer screen. (Interlaced is really a format made for broadcast.)
So you probably want to de-interlace. Your options include doing that from within FCP (choose the Settings view for the Inspector, Compressor (use Frame Controls), Motion (apply filter), and MPEG Streamclip (a free download). See if de-interlacing doesn't cure the problem.
My preference would be to de-interlace the material, then import it. But since you presumably have a completed project, try changing the field dominance over-ride in the Inspector to see whether the results are satisfactory.
Good luck.
Russ

Banding when rendering to Prores

Hi all,
I'm experiencing significant banding in vignetted areas of footages when exporting with Prores 422HQ codec. This problem doesn't show if I set the codec to Avid DNxHD.
All footages have been recorded directly in 10bit Prores 422HQ from a sony F3 coupled with an external recorder. Banding is not visible at 100% magnification in SG, just on rendered prores files. I played rendered files both in Quicktime and VLC, so it's not something related to the player.
Odd thing, if I convert the banding free Avid file to Prores using a different software (e.g. compressor, mpegstreamclip, etc.), the latter doesn't show any banding. This means there should be something wrong happening within SG...
Are you experiencing the same?
Thanks,
Diego

What Andrew said.... Production codecs are all going to have high data rates. That's why we use them in production. Storage is so cheap now that it shouldn't be a problem for anyone that is making a living making movies or for anyone with enough budget to support a movie making hobby. My first 4GB Ultra SCSI drive array cost nearly $20K, I just bought a 1.5TB drive for $89... It wasn't that long ago that I was paying $1 / foot to shoot, process, work print and sync 35MM film. (98 feet / minute @ 24 fps).
If you want a smaller file size you'll have to go to a delivery codec. Just be sure you know what to use when...

MY o MY! HDV capture to ProRes over firewire!!!!

Man, I thought it was impossible, but apparently not... 6.0.2? added this feature?
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/poisson_chris/hdv-prores.php
Gonna hurt those Intensity sales I'll wager, and I'll bet that the activity monitor on the CPU goes tilt during the process too...
Jerry

OK........ More good news Jerry
http://www.apple.com/support/releasenotes/en/FinalCut_Pro_6.0rn/
Sony HVR-V1 HDV Tape-Based Camcorder Support
Final Cut Pro 6.0.2 is compatible with the Sony HVR-V1 HDV camcorder, which is capable of recording 1080p24, 1080p25, and 1080p30 footage. You can capture natively or capture to either the Apple Intermediate Codec or the Apple ProRes 422 codec. You can also output back to the Sony HVR-V1 camcorder using the Print to Video command.
To natively capture 1080p25 or 1080p30 footage, you should use the HDV 1080i50 and HDV 1080i60 Easy Setups, respectively. Your footage will retain its progressive scanning even though it will be stored in an interlaced format. You can capture 1080p24 footage using the 1080i60 Easy Setup, but your captured footage will retain 3:2 pull-down in this case.
For transcoded capture of 1080p24 footage, 3:2 pull-down is removed during transcoding, resulting in footage stored in the 1080p24 Apple Intermediate Codec format or the 1080p24 Apple ProRes 422 codec format. You can also capture 1080p25 and 1080p30 footage to either format, although Easy Setups are not included for these formats. In these cases, your captured footage is stored in the 1080p25 or 1080p30 Apple Intermediate Codec or Apple ProRes 422 codec format.
Here are the recommended workflows for capturing from and outputting to the Sony HVR-V1 camcorder with Final Cut Pro 6.0.2:
24p/60i on tape: Capture to the 24p Apple Intermediate Codec or Apple ProRes 422 codec, then output to the HVR-V1 camcorder in 24p/60i mode.
25p/50i on tape: Capture to the 25p Apple Intermediate Codec or Apple ProRes 422 codec, then output to the HVR-V1 camcorder in 25p/50i mode.
30p/60i on tape: Capture to the 30p Apple Intermediate Codec or Apple ProRes 422 codec, then output to the HVR-V1 camcorder in 30p/60i mode.

Converting mixed HDV/XDCam to ProRes?

1. If I have HDV and XDCam EX on the same HDV timeline ... and do a Media Manager conversion to transform both codecs to create a new timeline that is all ProRes 422 ... will the XDCam be converted from XDCam or from HDV (given it is on an HDV timeline??)
This may seem like a dumb question. I'm not sure whether the media manager takes it cue from the actual orginal media, or from the sequence settings of the timeline?
2. The HDV is 1080i and the XDCam is 1080p. I need the ProRes 422 to be 1080i ... there is a predominance of HDV in the movie, and it is headed for television anyhow. Do I have to worry about the XDCam being converted from progressive to interlaced in some way?
All ears,
Ben

Thank you Shane,
Both are the same frame rates. First thing I checked. Even though I cut my teeth in film, and still shoot as if I have film in the camera, and though I'll use 24fps if I know it's going to end up in a theatre, I have to confess I've often found 29.97 fps smoother ... and it still looks like film to me (despite the noise of the naysayers) as long as the lighting and the use of the lens is cinematic.
Seems like I'm always 'still' learning when it comes to digital processes though... which is made easier by you...
Much appreciated,
Ben

HDV: Rendering in ProRes or not ?

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