Exposure/Blacks vs. Levels

I'm finding that I'm getting better results for basic tone and contrast etc by the old fashioned way of adjusting levels in PS than I am by adjusting exposure and blacks in LR. Do others find this to be true?... am I doing something wrong? I'm working with D200 NEF images. Thanks
Michael

Maybe it is just my many years of experience with tonal control and color balancing....But I do not follow any "Set Order" I kinda follow what the image wants. One image may call for this order:
Recovery
fill
WB
Tone Curve
Blacks
Brightness
Another may be:
Tone curve
WB
And another:
Fill
Recovery
Exposure
Tone Curve
WB
HSL/Vibrance
ETC...
In other words, unless you are always shooting with a standard lighting setup (ie studio portrait stuff) Than most likely each image will have it's own needs. If you try to follow a Standard work flow, and your images are not standard, than you will only be slowing down your process. Do what feels right. After a couple of hundred images you will start to instinctively know what an image needs.

Similar Messages

Exposure vs. Levels: Differences in Practical Use

I would like to better understand the differences between the Exposure control in the Exposure Adjustment section and the White, Gray and Black Levels sliders in the Levels Adjustment section. For example, I am working on a Raw-format image that is somewhat over-exposed. The Exposure control allows me to force it down by about 6/10 of stop, which seems to do a nice job of adjusting overall exposure, and the results are obvious on the histogram. What I'm not clear on is whether I can achieve the same effect using only the Levels adjustments. I know how to set white and black points in Levels, and understand that the gray level adjusts overall brightness, but is there a way to control exposure with levels or are they two different facets of raw adjustment?

They are two different aspects.
In general, raising the exposure by a stop raises the values of all pixels by the same amount -- say one stop.
If you are familiar with the zone system, then using exposure to change something that is neutral grey (zone 5) and making it white with detail (zone 7), should also pull things that are black (zone 3) to neutral grey (zone 7).
Using levels should not do this -- it is effectively setting black and white points, and it ends up increasing contrast at the same time (because, you could take a low contrast shot, where the histogram was very compressed, and use levels to ensure the photo has a true black point and true white point, thus increasing the dynamic range of the shot).
This is a fairly vague description -- but the way levels and exposure tools work is fairly well detailed, though you'll find a larger breadth of documentation that uses Photoshop as the medium.

Image goes black after levels adjustment

I've recently been using the Aperture Trial and have ran into a problem where the image in the Viewer will go black after I make a levels adjustment to the image.
It will show the image when I go into full-screen, but it won't show it in the Viewer window.
Has anyone else had an issue with this?
JT

I have a cautionary report about this bug - I really did not see it much myself, but after the last OS update I have seen images go black two times when editing on a Macbook Pro.
Going full screen and back did not fix the problem - the few times I had it happen in the past, I could simply apply some adjustment (like exposure) and remove the adjustment and the image would also be fine. In this case however I had to restart Aperture to be able to see the image again.
I'll also file a bug report.

Exposure vs. Levels vs. Brightness/Contrast Adjustment Layers?

I have some photos that are a bit underexposed and I'm trying to brighten them up a bit and I made a Levels adjustment layer and also experimented with the Exposure adjustment layer. Are these essentially doing the same thing OR are there reasons to have a Levels adjustment layer along with an exposure one and a Brightness/Contrast one?
Thanks in advance.

The Exposure adjustment in Photoshop is primarily meant to correct tonal values of High Dynamic Range images, which are 32 bits. This command makes tonal adjustments using a linear color space or gamma instead of your image’s color space. You can use it on 8 bit or 16 bit images too, but the adjustments may seem rather drastic.
When rescuing poorly exposed 8 bit or 16 bit images, I prefer Levels or Curves because you have greater control. Brightness/Contrast, isn't something I use much.
Nancy O.

Auto Exposure and Auto Levels

I have yet to figure out if it is possible to apply both auto exposure and levels to multiple images, and I do not mean lifting and stamping the same settings. If not this is #1 on my wish list.

I initially thought this was a glaring omission from the beginning. However, these auto functions have such unpredictable effects on images that they really do need individual application and review anyway. Not being able to batch apply them just enforces good practice going image by image so that one doesn't wind up with a bunch of badly adjusted images. Adjusting similar images with lift and stamp is more prudent though deserving of individual review as well.

Mechanics behind exposure, blacks and other sliders

This might be a question for Camera Raw, too, but since I now mostly use LR, it goes here:
Is there any information about specific mechanics behind toning tools? I'd be happy to find somebody who can "translate" them into toning curve terms. For example, what curve manipulation performs similar to Exposure slider? Same question for Brightness and Contrast.

You cannot translate the exposure slider to a curve manipulation easily. What it does is simply transform the luminance data by multiplying with 2^exposure. So if you have a pixel with a luminance of 50% originally, and you set +2 stops of exposure compensation, you end up with 200% luminance, which will be clipped to 100%. In other words, this slider does exactly what would have happened if you would have set the exposure compensation in camera at the expense of some extra noise. If the gamma of the curve display would have been 2 (which it isn't, it is 2.2), you can sort of think of the exposure slider as taking a straight line from the origin and changing its slope by the brightness slider. + values will make the line intercept on the top axis (making highlights clip) and - values will intercept on the right axis (making original whites grey).
The blacks slider in a curve term moves the whole curve to the right and compresses the curve. You can visualize it by moving the left bottom intercept over the bottom (input luminance) axis. It changes the maximum input luminance that corresponds to black. Input luminances above it will give you a tone, below, they will just be black.
Contrast and brightness are basically what Victoria describes above, but Fill light and highlight recovery are impossible to translate to tone curve terms. They are local contrast enhancement tools that are more akin to HDR processing than to curve manipulation. You can get similar effects to fill light by boosting the shadow portions and to highlight recovery by lowering the highlight portion of the curve, but they are in a fundamentally different class.

Batch auto exposure or auto levels for a bunch of RAW images?

Hi,
I want to apply the "auto level" to a bunch of RAW images all at the same time. I've tried to use the lift+stamp tools, but they lift the applied level instead of the function "auto level" itself, and thus uses the same levels for all the images. I've also tried to uncheck the "Primary only" function, but it still doesn't work - if I select a bunch of photos and press "Auto level", only one of them will have it applied.
Does anyone have an idea of a way to do this?
Thanks!

There was a post a week or so back that discussed this and one way of achieving it.
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2216247
Tony

Way to adjust black/white levels using color checker card in FCP6?

When I shoot, I use a Gretag MacBeth white balance card for the camera, and also shoot a grey scale ColorChecker card with black, grey and white areas.
When I apply a 3 way color checker, sampling the black, then white, then grey in that order, I don't really notice any visible change (which I guess is good!).
But, I was hoping that it would also notice that the black in my video, is not really the blackest legal black - and make adjustments for that - and also the brightest whites.
I guess the 3-way color correction only does, who would guess?, color correction.
Is there a way to use the color checker card with some some included in FCP or 3rd party tools to make the blacks in my image closer to the blackest legal blacks, whites closes to the whitest legal whites - or am I totally missing the point?
The video actually looks great, but I was wondering if there was some way to further enhance it, using the color checker card - which seems to be a useful standard?

Zebulun - I seem to remember a few years back doing still photography - where I'd eyedropper a white point, and eye dropper a black point, to change the value Photoshop thought was white and black.
And, I guess I was hoping to be able to do something like that using the black, grey and white of that card.
Is there anyway the card could be used with the waveform? It just seems logical somehow that if you know for sure, here's what black is, here's what white is, that that info could be used for other purposes than color balance?

IMAQ vision acquisition does auto white/black level adjustment

Hi,
I am using IMAQ Vision to capture RS170 video from a device we manufacture. I have noticed that the white/black levels seem to be "adjusted" automatically for each image acquisition I make. I would like to turn this feature off, but cannot find a method to do this. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
Thanks,
Howard Spec
CMC Electronics
Canada

Hi Howard,
It sounds like you are turning on the auto exposure before each acquisition. Are you performing these acquisitions in LabVIEW? If so, you may be programmatically setting the white and black reference levels. This is done in the shipping example HL Analog Attributes.vi. Try performing the acquisitions in Measurement and Automation Explorer (MAX). If you hit the Auto Exposure button in MAX before each snap/grab, you should see this behavior, otherwise you shouldn’t.
Christopher M.
Applications Engineer
National Instruments

Data below black level 0 in h264 mp4 files.

I'm a little confused about black and white levels in video.
I have two questions. If you bare with me for a second I can demonstrate what I mean.
I created gradient with values from 0,0,0 to 255,255,255 in Photoshop and saved it as sRGB jpg file.
I imported the file to Premiere and added Fast Color Corrector to the file and changed black input level from 0,0 to 16,0
So now everything below value 16 is cutted to black.
I exported the edited gradient as h264 mp4 videofile.
Now things got interesting.
I imported the edited videofile back to Premiere, added Fast Color Corrector to videofile and changed black output level from 0,0 to 16,0
The information that I thought was lost is there!
I tried to to the same thing for the same video file with Photoshop and I'm not able to get the lost information back.
Why is there information below 0? And how am I able to rescue it with Premiere, but not with Photoshop?
Does this have something to do with YCbCr black and white levels that are 16-235?
This whole question came up when I calibrated my Samsung lcd-tv. I used AVS HD 709 mp4-calibration videos.
There are black level calibration videofile. Which is exactly like my gradient video file where there are black values below 0.
If you lift your tv's brightness below certain levels you are able to see the black values that are below 0.
I'm able to see these "blacker than black" values with tv's own videoplayer and with xbox videoplayer.
However, if I try to see these values with my macbook pro which is connected to tv I can't get them visible.
It doesn't matter if I play the video with quicktime, vlc or premiere.
So the second question is why the macbook pro does not send any "below black" information to tv?
PS. I'm using latest premiere CC.
Thank you in advance!
In this image you can see from Premiere Scopes what is happening.

Does this have something to do with YCbCr black and white levels that are 16-235?
No and yes.
When you manipulate levels values within 0-255 (0.0-1.0) range, you don't clip existing data, you simply compress/decompress contrast, while information is still there (to some extent). By the way, data outside 16-235 range, but inside 0-255 are not super-blacks or super-whites (underdarks or ovebrights), they are just broadcast safe values. Super-blacks or underdarks are values below 0.0, while super-whites or overbrights are values above 1.0. The nature of YCbCr does allow to store some real super-blacks and super-whites even while encoding to 8-bit codec.
Why only some codecs are able to preserve this "illegal" values?
MOV container is... um-m-m... quirky. For example, exactly the same data encoded to e.g. mp4 and MOV with exactly the same codec (e.g. H.264), may be decoded/interpretted differently. So as to have some fun, create a copy of an mp4 clip, which contains some super-whites, rename file extension of one copy to MOV, import both mp4 and fake MOV footages into After Effects, set your project to 32-bit, sRGB or Rec.709 and linearise working space in order to get precise result while blending layers. Then drop both clips into the same composition and set blending mode to Difference. Enjoy!
Why I'm only able to access these values inside Premiere and not with Photoshop. Is Photoshop unable to access these illegal below 0 values?
Try setting Photoshop to 32-bit first. If that doesn't help, then yes, Photoshop clips values outside 0-255 (0.0-1.0) range on importing. Similarly you won't be able to get super-whites or super-blacks back in PrPro with 8-bit effects.
When i export with codecs that can preserve superblacks should I still get rid of them with videolimiter. Do they cause any problems in youtube or broadcast environments?
No. Moreover, you should take care of broadcast legal range in case of delivering to a broadcaster only, YouTube 'broadcasts' on the web and targets regular computer monitors, which operate on sRGB 0-255 range.
why the macbook pro does not send any "below black" information to tv?
That has probably something to do with Apple colour management workflow. Since I'm not on a Mac, I can't comment this on

OpenGL inaccuracies and black levels

Here is an sRGB file consisting of 0,0,0 background, with five overlaid squares at one level increments, from 1 to 5.
On my Eizo CG246, calibrated with Eizo ColorNavigator, all five squares are discernible against the black background, as long as Graphics Processor > Advanced is set to "Basic" mode. This means that the color management logic (the conversion to the display profile) is performed in the CPU.
In "Normal" and "Advanced" modes, color management is shifted to the GPU. With these settings, black levels disappear. It's not dramatic, but it's there. The difference can be illustrated in a screenshot, as long as the display profile is assigned and the screenshot is pasted in the Basic mode. Here's how it looks straight up (should be viewed against a dark background):
Here I put a Curves layer on top to exaggerate:
And here I read out the numbers from this exaggerated version:
So far it seems this can not be reproduced on another monitor I have, an NEC P232W calibrated with Spectraview II. It also seemed a bit more pronounced on a different Eizo I no longer use, an S2243W, calibrated with Eizo EasyPix.
This suggests that the problem is in the interaction between the display profile and the Open GL engine that does the conversion. I think this is related to the ProPhoto cyan banding issue previously reported, because that also seems to behave differently between these two systems (I'll do some more testing on that).
In all cases and all scenarios, all irregularities disappear with Open GL in the "Basic" setting.

You neglected to include your test image with black and levels (1,1,1) through (5,5,5), but no matter, I have the one I made...
http://Noel.ProDigitalSoftware.com/ForumPosts/DarkGrayColorLevels16Bit.png
I've found that here I'm not seeing a visible difference between GPU and CPU color-management with the image in the sRGB color space. In other words, no crush. With the image in the ProPhoto RGB color space, some slight crush was apparent, along with color shifts almost exclusively toward red.
However, that's not to say there are no differences between the two. They're just more subtle than what you're seeing. What I did to test was this:
Open the image I linked to above using Advanced mode OpenGL.
Float it in a window.
Screen grab it.
Pick it up and start to drag it.
While still dragging, screen grab it again.
Overlay the two images, and pixel align them.
Set the top image to "Difference" blending.
Add a couple of Curves layers over the top to greatly enhance the differences to make them more visible.
Since my test image has a dark grayscale gradient expressed in 16 bits/channel, it's not only testing for accuracy at the visible level, but also for very subtle changes. Lo and behold, changes are revealed. Note:
Enhanced differences between GPU and CPU rendering of the image in the sRGB color space:
Assigning the ProPhoto RGB color space to my test image, then comparing GPU vs. CPU rendering...
-Noel

Black levels different on import

Hi all. I'm digitizing a DVCam Master tape of a show that I'm putting on DVD. In the studio where the show was edited, the blacks look perfect. But when I digitize on my system, the blacks look a lot lighter. I've compared the QTs I'm making with QTs my client made, and my client's are much darker. The weird thing is we both digitized using Firewire. Could my deck be causing a problem? (It's an older Sony WV-DR7, a grey-market Japanese player that takes full size DV tapes, and also plays DVCam). Could it be the way I'm digitizing? (I'm going in firewire, which I always assumed was identical to the tape). Any one else ever had these issues? Any solutions in FCP itself?
Any ideas?
G5 Dual 2.5 Ghz Mac OS X (10.4.9)
FCP 5.0.4

It's most likely your IRE setup with the deck. Here's where it gets tricky because I don't know how your older deck handles DV. But to sum up, digital media needs to be captured to your NLE at 0 IRE and analoge video will need 7 IRE in order to mainatain proper black levels. So check your deck and make sure it's set right for your particular capture.
With more modern decks the default setup is usually for DV and 0 IRE but your deck may be different. It's worth it to do a test using the 2 different black setup levels on your deck. Obviously you'll choose the setup that gives you proper black levels in FCP, whatever that setup turns out to be.
- Don

Encoding to Blu-ray is destroying my black levels - what am I doing wrong?

I need to burn a short to Blu-ray for a screening coming up, but every time Premiere/Encoder/Encore finishes the disc, the black levels look nothing like what I saw in my project timeline OR in Encore's preview window. The blacks are soft, grey, with way too much detail in them. Research has led me to believe that my issue has something to do with the color values of my project going from 0-255, but that Adobe Media Encoder will automatically shift that to 16-235. Or something. I don't know, all of this is new to me in the last 12 hours.
I did miss around with the Levels effect in Premiere just to test this hypothesis, and when I bumped the black output levels from 0 to 16 in the timeline, it did replicate the difference that I was seeing in finished blu's.
I've scoured all the settings in Premiere and Encore for a way to control the black levels going into/coming out of Encoder, but cannot find anything. Someone please tell me what stupid thing I overlooked so I can make this movie look right.
For reference, my source video is:
DSLR .mov footage, 1920x1080, 23.976
And I'm exporting to Blu-ray using the following settings:
MPEG 2 (also tried H.264, same result)
NTSC
CBR (movie's only 22 minutes), but I've also tried VBR 2pass at 40mbps max, 35mbs target, and 25mbps minimum.
Profile: 5.0
Max render quality, maximum bit depth, max everything.
Running Premiere Pro Cs5.5

S.A. Hudson wrote:
...Research has led me to believe that my issue has something to do with the color values of my project going from 0-255, but that Adobe Media Encoder will automatically shift that to 16-235. Or something. I don't know, all of this is new to me in the last 12 hours.
I did miss around with the Levels effect in Premiere just to test this hypothesis, and when I bumped the black output levels from 0 to 16 in the timeline, it did replicate the difference that I was seeing in finished blu's.
I've scoured all the settings in Premiere and Encore for a way to control the black levels going into/coming out of Encoder, but cannot find anything. Someone please tell me what stupid thing I overlooked so I can make this movie look right.
For reference, my source video is:
DSLR .mov footage, 1920x1080, 23.976
And I'm exporting to Blu-ray using the following settings:
MPEG 2 (also tried H.264, same result)
NTSC
CBR (movie's only 22 minutes), but I've also tried VBR 2pass at 40mbps max, 35mbs target, and 25mbps minimum.
Profile: 5.0
Max render quality, maximum bit depth, max everything.
Running Premiere Pro Cs5.5
You are correct. Depending on a host of technical factors (none of which are visible or controllable in the GUI) the raw footage that is sent from Premiere to AME for encode can be in the range 0-255 (PC) or 16-235 (TV). Rendering at Max Render Quality should have it come in as 16-235 always.
If you encode for TV the encoder will scale the range down - making it less contrasty - ie what you're seeing) or simply clamp the values so that anything below 16 is clamped to 16 and above 235 is clamped to 235.
You said that you have your TV connected to the PC via HDMI. Can you put the reference monitor on that display and confirm that the blacks are the same as the video seen inside PPro? If so your TV is configured correctly.
Next use the 3 way color corrector (NOT "Levels" or "Brightness and Contrast" - they are clamped to the 16-235 range!!!!) to blow the image out from 16-235 to full range (check in the vectorscope or YCrCb waveform to confirm it's full range - ie WAY past the 100% squares in the vectorscope).
Check on the TV and it should not show the greater gammut. If it does it means that your TV is doing full-range.
this is all a bit late for your showing but I hope it can help.
Anyhow off that tangent...
I would recommend you export a h.264 clip to a usb stick if your standard home-use blu-ray player has usb stick playback.
Put that stick in your blu-ray player or Samsung TV if it can do it too, and see if it'll play back with the right blacks.

Barely used 564 color cartridges show all same low level. 564 XL black cartridge shows 3/4 full

Two months ago, I purchased and installed 564 XL Black and 3 color cartridges in my Photosmart 309a. I've printed approximately 100 black and white documents and no color documents. My black ink level is 2/3 full but the color cartridges are all showing the exact same level--just above empty. I also just installed a photo black cartridge, which is showing 1/2 full.
Black copies are great. Color copies are streaked and faded. I've contacted HP tech support on the phone and was given the same answers over and over for almost 20 minutes. After asked his supervisor to help, he quickly came back and gave me almost 10 more minutes of the same explanation as before. No answers, options or solutions--just run-around. And now, I'm out $52 without even printing a single color copy?

Hi,
Looks like your setup is to use quality Grayscale. As you know mixing all prime colors together at a right amounts will give you millions of colors from black to white. To print BLACK INK ONLY, please try:
(a) Double click printer icon,
(b) Click Set preferences
(c) Click Advanced,
(d) Select "Black ink only" under Grayscale
(e) Click Apply/OK ...
Note: As mentioned in my previous reply, printer STILL needs and USES color inks during warming up process and few other processes to keep itself in good health.
Regards.
BH
**Click the KUDOS thumb up on the left to say 'Thanks'**
Make it easier for other people to find solutions by marking a Reply 'Accept as Solution' if it solves your problem.

Levels equivalent in Lightroom

Hi Guys,
does anybody know if ther's a Photoshop Levels equivalent in Lightroom? I really mean a Levels tool, not a curves/simil curves option, but something to set white/black point accurately like in photoshop.
Thanks for your help!
Cristiano

Well, Exposure, Black and Brightness do not really works the same way that the Levels in Photoshop.
The impact on the image is different....I am not able to tell you exactly how but, try it yourself.
I think what you are seeing is the difference in LR's histogram display when compared to PS's histogram display. Ssprengel pointed this out in his post:
One thing that makes this suggested procedure more difficult in LR is that the histogram in ACR is determined by the output color space you have set and the shipping indicators match what the output will be, but in LR the histogram reflects the internal working color space of LR, so something showing as not clipped in LR’s histogram might actually be clipped in the output image when you set the color space in the Export panel and there’s no way to proof this beforehand.
So the 'Level' controls in PS appear to have a different affect on the image file's histogram. As ssprengel also points out it would be nice if Adobe allowed "proofing" the image in LR with the export color space profile (i.e. sRGB).
Try exporting a RAW image file to TIFF file format, ProPhoto RGB, and 16 bit. Open the TIFF copy in both LR and PS and try the 'Levels' adjustments in PS versus LR's Exposure, Blacks, and Brightness controls. The histograms and controls should function more similar. As ssprengel said, PS’s histogram is going to provide a more accurate indication of clipping in narrower gamut color spaces compared to LR’s Melissa RGB histogram.
http://www.lightroomforums.net/showthread.php?12472-Histograms-in-Lightroom-and-Photoshop- don-t-match

Exposure/Blacks vs. Levels

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