MBP vs MB - thermal grease...

Any news or info on the application of thermal grease on the MacBook, compared to the MacBook Pro?

Maybe someone will be brave enough to take it apart. If not just wait and someone on Digg.com or Engadget will turn up with pics....
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MBP and the Thermal Paste Discussions

I've read with interest the postings on this web site regarding the MBP heat issues and the possibility that too much thermal paste is causing that problem. I've spent quite a few years designing computer motherboards using Intel processor chips, and want to share some thoughts on the topic. I only mention my background because one thing this business has taught me is that we can all be easily mislead by our test data if our process for gathering the data isn't rigorous (and, believe me, I've learned that lesson many times).
First, the excess thermal paste is definitely a problem, regardless of whether it is the root cause of the heat issue. Some of the photos posted on the various web sites show thermal paste covering bypass capacitors on the chip carriers (the green fiberglass boards that carry the CPU and GPU die). Thermal pastes can cause stray capacitances that can interfere with circuit operation. Standard industry practice is to use only as much paste as is necessary to achieve a layer that is about as thin as a single layer of tissue paper (or less). The amount used by Apple is far too large, particularly because the paste in coming into contact with other electrical components and conductors. A common failure mode associated with degraded bypass capacitors is random (and unrepeatable) crashes due to corrupted digital data in the processor chip.
In addition, all thermal pastes contain various types of fluids. Over time, these fluids evaporate, and frequently they condense elsewhere inside a computer. When CD drives were first introduced years ago, a common cause of mid-lifetime failures was condensates on the optics of the laser. The condensation fogs the lens and interferes with the ability of the laser to focus while reading and writing data. The contamination was traced to outgassing by thermal pastes, greases, sulfurized elastomers, and similar items used to build the computer. (Note that the Apple service manual for the MBP refers to the thermal paste as “thermal grease”.) Consumer electronics manufacturers learned to minimize the use of such materials in computer designs. The amount of thermal paste shown in the Apple service manual is very large, and I wouldn't rule out that it might contribute to future DVD drive failures.
It is difficult to say, based on the available data, that reducing the amount of thermal paste actually contributes to improving the thermal behavior of the MBP. Part of the problem is that the procedure to remove the pastes involves disassembling the laptop, and this introduces the possibility that the disassembly/reassembly process is inadvertently fixing the problem.
First, the high case temperatures could be the result of loose or poorly placed thermal sensors. If the disassembly/reassembly process fixed a loose sensor, or loose sensor electrical connection, or placed the sensor in a better position, you would get lower case temperatures, and possibly (inadvertently) attribute this to less paste.
Second, the cooling system design in the MBP requires that the die caps on the chip carriers be pressed tightly against the pads on the heat sink, so that heat is transferred efficiently. If the MBP is not assembled properly, (i.e., if the logic board mounting screws are not properly torqued, or the logic board is not mechanically aligned properly to ensure a tight fit to the heat sink), it is possible that this will manifest itself as high case temperatures. In the Intel processor chips there are two paths for heat to travel – out of the die cap, and through the electrical contacts to the motherboard. If the die cap isn’t properly cooled, heat will instead go into the motherboard, and the case temperature will rise. There is a possibility that the disassembly/reassembly process will fix a loose or misaligned logic board problem, with the result that the case temp will be reduced.
Also, if you work through the details of the thermal model that results from excess paste, it's hard to see how it would result in more heat to the case and less to the heat sink. Most of the photos on the web appear to show thin paste on top of the die, indicating that there was probably a low thermal resistance path to the heat sink prior to disassembly. The excess paste to the sides will simply further reduce the thermal resistance between the chip carrier and the heat sink. I may be missing something, but it's hard to envision how this lower thermal resistivity between the CPU and the heat sink drives more heat into the case. But it is also possible that the disassembly process destroys evidence of the actual connection to the heat sink, so this failure mode is hard to judge.
The best way to determine if removing the excess paste is actually helping would be to measure the exhaust air temperature from the cooling fans before and after removing the excess paste. I haven't seen such data, but if it were taken, and showed that the exhaust air was at a significantly higher temperature after the fix than before it, then we would know that the fix worked. If not, then the heat is going elsewhere, and it is possible that fix has actually made things worse.
Finally, all the symptoms we're seeing can be explained by poor software calibration and/or incorrect software control of the CPU clock speed. I wouldn't rule out a software fix at his point.
I'm not saying removing the paste is not a fix, only that there are still open questions that remain to be answered. It would be hard for me to recommend that anyone rework an MBP for the thermal problem in the absence of additional data.
For myself, I own an MBP, and though I have access to an electronics lab and some great technicians, I intend to buy Applecare, and in the meantime wait for a fix (or at least more information) from Apple.
Best of luck to everyone who has this issue - thats what we get for being early adopters.
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Well I replaced my thermal compound and the temperature on my cpu went down and the temperature of my case went down also. The fans also kick in sooner leaving me to believe that the heat is being properly distributed the heatsink whereas before it was not as there was too much thermal compound making it act like an insulator.
I cannot say if the exhaust air is any hotter, but I know overall my laptop is much more cooler and never gets extremely HOT. Even under heavy loads the areas where it used to get really hot, above f keys, palm area, underneath the MBP are not hot to the point where someone could burn themself at all.
I really do hope that Apple does address this issue because I could not live with the heat before, I always had to hook up an external keyboard because my hands got too sweaty from the palm rest and the keyboard. Now everything is operating like any other laptop I've owned and I am a very satisifed Apple user. Let's hope that Apple is really looking into it and will have a reasonable answers for all MBP users in a reasonable amount of time.

Taking my MBP to have the grease checked

I am taking my MBP to my Apple service centre in 1 hour to tell them:
1. To check the thermal grease and if its over applied, to re-apply NOT as per the Apple manual, but to my specs: ie only on the core !
2. To re-seat the casing so theres NOT a 1mm gap between the upper and lower cases in some areas.
3. To explain to me why the faint whine is present only when the power adapter is unplugged.
Mines a week 13, by the way.
I will post back later as to my findings...WATCH THIS SPACE !

Just returned. They informed me that they can only follow Apple guidelines.
Anyway - they also told me that Apple are releasing a statement THIS COMING WEEK re heat/grease etc etc
They also offered to replace my MBP with a new one. A shipment is being air-freighted today and they will call me when the new batch arrives - straight swap, no problem They only have week 12 and 13's in stock but the new shipement will have later builds.
I showed them the pics from the web and they were shocked at how this grease issue happened !!
Very helpful, no problems and I will wait till the new shipment arrives. Meantime I keep my original until then.

FYI For Everyone Fixing their Thermal Grease

If you "fix" the thermal grease .. umm... abundance yourself, per AppleCare you void your warranty.
So if your cutting tape/removing noticable ammounts of paste, yes you warranty technically no longer exists.
HOWEVER, you can open up your MacMini and upgrade ram, HDD, etc. and they are cool with that.
Why I don't really know. It's a shame too, because I have my whole little set of tools and ArcticSilver 5 plus cleaner and solvent ready to go. Perhaps if everyone sends in the MBP for repair on this issue they will allow individuals to fix their own machines to reduce the load? Doubtfull.

Golan, the thermal grease DOES have functionality, as do the fans and other components making up the computer. The functionality of the thermal grease has to do with management of heat, and hence with the reliability of other components in the computer.
Apple has documented specifications for the thermal grease material and application. User modification of those specifications without approval by Apple do, in my opinion, obviously provide grounds for Apple to refuse warranty coverage of the affected components (which could extend to many components in the computer whose reliability could be related to temperature).
I've seen a number of opinions on this forum that the thermal grease used by Apple is inferior, and/or that the application procedure is inferior. Those remain opinions, regardless of the poster's qualifications. For the warranty provisions state that it is Apple's right to decide what modifications may be permissible, and require prior approval by Apple prior to such modifications.
Is removal and reapplication of thermal grease an attempt to modify functionality of the computer? Of course it is, and that's why some owners have done it. Did they obtain permission from Apple, together with specifications for the modifications? Of course not. I've also noted that some owners requested the modifications to be made by Apple repair centers, and were refused.
Again, I'm not stating that Apple WILL deny future warranty coverage to owners who have modified their computers. But they certainly have the RIGHT to do so.
Anyone who has bought a MacBook Pro can do anything they wish with it, so long as others are not harmed. They can jump up and down on it. But there are warranty provisions that limit Apple's responsibility to provide warranty service for some of the things owners may do to their computers. Thermal grease removal and reapplication is not listed as a user-service activity, like addition of RAM, which is permissible.
Watching some of these threads has as much fascination as watching an impending train wreck.

T60 replacement fan - thermal grease

My T60 fan started whining so IBM sent me a replacement fan and a tube of thermal grease - but the fan already has thermal grease on it.
The grease is actually a 5 x 7 matrix of 35 small dots of thermal grease. Everything I have ever read about applying thermal grease says that it should be applied in a very thin, smooth layer and these thermal grease dots don't seem consistent with that at all.
1. Should I flatten the dots and spread them out thinly? Or does IBM expect us to just install it as is - maybe the pressure applied upon installation is supposed to flatten the grease out appropriately?
2. Should I have some pure alcohol handy to clean off all of the old grease before replacing this fan?
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eetolaa, welcome to the forum,
the fans come with thermal paste already on them, all you need to do is remove the thin clear plastic from the grey thermal pads. The grey pads are thermal plastic and come attached to the fan.
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Replace Thermal grease

Which thermal grease is suitable for my laptop dv6 6154tx ? Which thermal grease is used by Hp company? please suggest me a good product.
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All thermal grease is acceptable. It is more an issue of how it is applied than the brand of the compound you use. The trick is to cover just the processor core as thin as possible while providing full coverage but not slopping over. A drop the size of a BB is usually about right. If you can find it my favorite brand is Arctic Silver with the highest possible metal content which is usually noted on the label. But even the inexpensive "ketchup pack" white stuff will work fine.
If this is "the Answer" please click "Accept as Solution" to help others find it.

Replacing thermal grease ok?

Got two lightnings 7970 BE's, damn fine things.
Both cards hash fine, but I won't go into detail, apparently most people condemn miners.
Now, the second card runs as 71c, ok in my opinion.
The first card, however, runs at 78c, a bit too hot considering fanspeed is also 100% ( not nice for the lifetime of the card ).
So I was wondering, how can I reduce the temperature?
First thing that came to mind is replacing thermal grease.
I'm not really a noob to this, I've installed an Acc. Xtreme on a 480 before and mounted a VF3000A on a 5870, I'd consider myself experienced in cooler replacement / removal and whatnot.
Now, will this void the warranty of the cards? That'd really suck since these bad boys are just over two months old.
And, well, these are just over two months old, would I see a decrease in temps? Even 2c will matter.
Regards,
Nos.

Quote from: flobelix on 08-January-14, 04:05:30
There could very well be a difference of 2°C if quality paste is used. The factory paste is not too good.
Replacing will not void the warranty. Only damaging the card while trying would. The sticker is meant to scare off those trying to careless unmount the cooler. If you need a confirmation from your local MSI branch contact them: >>How to contact MSI.<<
Registering for my local MSI ( NL ) is a total mess, I can't register.
That's why I tried asking it here first.
Thanks for the fast reply though! I'll give it a shot.
Bonus question, if you know the answer.
I got three different brands of Thermal Grease.
Noctua ( came with NH-D14 )
Scythe ( came with Mugen 2 )
Arctic ( came with freezer 14 )
Which one of them would you recommend?
All reviews tend to lead to the same conclusion: Results are compareable.

NorthBridge thermal grease application???

Ok...I have learned how to apply thermal grease very thinly and evenly to a CPU core...its pretty easy and can mean the difference in a couple extra FSBs...but do the same methods (arctic silver's website) apply when you are applying grease to a NorthBridge?
Do we want it nice and thin layer on a NorthBridge or do we want to goop it on there like the mfg?

Some of us have lapped the Northbridge and the heatsink to make them
flatter, therefore you can use less thermal grease!
Just like Wonkanoby says, most of the Northbridge or nforce 2 chipset that
I have seen are convex, so you need to use a bit more thermal grease
than usual !
Be careful if your using Arcticsilver 3-5 in this area! Even though Arcticsilver
says its not conductive until its under pressure! Their are stories that some
people have fried their Mobo!
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Thermal grease replacement in G62-B21ER Notebook.

Hi!
I have just replaced a new thermal grease in my laptop G62-B21ER to reduce the temperature of my GPU and CPU, and cleaned the radiator from dust. So, that is funny because my laptop didn't switch off before, but after this replacement it has begun! I used good thermal grease and it shouldn't switch off but temperature is about 90 (C) ~ 194 (F) in gaming. There is 3 processors that touch thermal-cooling system and I've put the thermal grease on each proc.
So laptop swithes off now in Assassins Creed Brotherhood and hangs in NFS Hot Pursuit but it didn't switch off beffore cleaning. OS:Windows 7 x86, Radeon HD 5470,Intel Pentium P6100 @ 2.00 Ghz.
What did I do wrong? Help me, please!
P.S. Sorry for my English if it's bad

Hi,
Welcome to the HP Forum!
Jdiablo7 wrote:
Hi!
I have just replaced a new thermal grease in my laptop G62-B21ER to reduce the temperature of my GPU and CPU, and cleaned the radiator from dust. So, that is funny because my laptop didn't switch off before, but after this replacement it has begun! I used good thermal grease and it shouldn't switch off but temperature is about 90 (C) ~ 194 (F) in gaming. There is 3 processors that touch thermal-cooling system and I've put the thermal grease on each proc.
So laptop swithes off now in Assassins Creed Brotherhood and hangs in NFS Hot Pursuit but it didn't switch off beffore cleaning. OS:Windows 7 x86, Radeon HD 5470,Intel Pentium P6100 @ 2.00 Ghz.
What did I do wrong? Help me, please!
P.S. Sorry for my English if it's bad
Turn the notebook off and begin disassembly again.
The instructions at ArcticSilver are what you need to follow. It could be that you put on too much or didn't remove all of the old thermal interface material.
regards,
erico
Kind regards,
erico
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What kind of thermal grease for CPU?

Hi everyone,
I dismantled my iMac G4 17" 1.25Ghz in order to change the DVD inside. And here I made the mistake: it was so dusty inside (I bought it second hand from a chain-smoker) that I decided to clean it. In the process, the thermal pipe got moved. So I tried to move it back into place and realized there were pins to align it. Don't ask how, but the metal clip that holds the double-pipe onto the CPU unclipped itself. So the processor was all visible. I decided to clean off the grease on it and apply thermal paste (arcticsilver 5) instead of whatever was there. And now I think it was the wrong stuff: the machine works but as soon as the workload increases, it freezes. If it sits there, idle, it's happy. But if I launch a Quicktime movie and play an iTunes track (70% CPU usage), it kernel panics after 10 minutes. Launch dnetc and it crashes within 3 minutes (95% CPU usage).
So here is my question: what kind of grease is used between the CPU and its thermal pipe? From what I saw, it was more like a grease than a paste. Does anyone know? I spoke to an Apple Center and the only thing they could tell me is that the machine needs a new logicboard. No way, let's do it myself, but with what compound?
Thanks for your help on that one!
Pierre

Pierre,
The Do-It-Yourself Mac: Between the thermal pipe and mating surface is a thin coat of silicon paste (known as thermal paste or heat-sink compound). This paste—available at electronics shops for around $5 a tube—helps eliminate air gaps between the surfaces, so heat goes out the pipe rather than into the iMac.Since it exhibits Kernel Panic behavior, read Resolving Kernel Panics, by Dr. Smoke for some tips.
;~)

Replace thermal grease when removing heatsinks - why?

Isn't there still a sufficient amount of grease on the heatsink if you don't touch it or otherwise remove it? Apple recommends this everytime you remove the heatsinks, but this seems anal... Kind of like changing the oilpan drain washer everytime you do an oil change, right...
SH

Isn't there still a sufficient amount of grease on
the heatsink if you don't touch it or otherwise
remove it? Apple recommends this everytime you
remove the heatsinks, but this seems anal... Kind of
like changing the oilpan drain washer everytime you
do an oil change, right...
SH
SH,
Ignore the snide remarks. Apply Artic Silver available at Fry's Electronics. Don't see, ask for it.
Artice Silver is the best thermal conductive pasts around. Don't cut corners you will pay for it, maybe. Why risk it.
You know me. I helped you with the take apart guide!
William

T60/T60P Heat Sink Compount (thermal Grease, Thermal Compound) Part numbers?

Anyone have a part number for the heatsink Compound for the Cpu Grease? Also, can the little patches of heat sink putty be purchased as well for the video and support chips?

aftermarket one is okay, the OEM one is around 70 USD for 2 ml or something, not really worth it.
Regards,
Jin Li
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T400 Overheating - caused by dried thermal grease & dirty fan

My T400 is approx. 4 years old and when powered on, the screen with the Thinkpad logo comes up
But it will not transition to the desktop screen.
I have been told by support that the fan on this model will burn out after this period of time.
Is it worth it to replace the fan or scrap the thing and upgrade?
Thx
Moderator comment: Post split to this new thread. Subject edited.
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Good evening and welcome to the community.
You may wish to have a look at your hardware maintenance manual:
http://download.lenovo.com/ibmdl/pub/pc/pccbbs/mobiles_pdf/43y6629_05.pdf
to get an idea about what's involved in fan removal / installation for the T400. See manual pages 110-114. IMO, it's one of the easier tasks to accomplish if you're generally comfortable working inside a computer.
Please also post back your machine type-model number (MTM), from the sticker on the bottom, and we should be able to help you look up the appropriate part number(s) for the fan. Please don't post your serial number.
Regards.
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Was there ever a resolution to the thermal paste issue? Worth reapplying?

Last time I checked these forums was a month ago and people were debating whether there was any concrete benefit to popping open the MBP and reapplying thermal grease. For each guy that said it helped, another said it did nothing. Was there ever a consensus or official resolution to this debate?

Save your money. Besides if you take the computer to an authorized Apple repair center they will not do the work unless you have an authorization from Apple Customer Service. They will not authorize the work unless there is something specifically malfunctioning. If you really want the thermal paste re-applied you will have to do it yourself. This requires a complete disassembly of the computer and some special drivers.
If you read the article I referenced you will note that there is little point to replacing the paste.
You can download and install an extension called Speedit.kext along with a companion program called CoreDuoTemp (www.versiontracker.com, www.macupdate.com, or www.increw.org) and use it to monitor the CPU's core temperature. Unless it's running hotter than "normal" there's really nothing to worry about. Normal temps typically range between 50-75 C under loads varying from 2-30 percent or more.

Whether or not to change stock thermal paste on early 2009 unibody 17" MBP CPU?

I have a first generation (early 2009) unibody 17" MBP, now out of warranty / Apple Care. It's been working fine in general, however I've been increasingly concerned about the CPU temps when I encode with Hand Brake, and some times when doing things in VMWare (Win XP) and in OS X at the same time. Under those two sets of circumstances, my CPU temp (as read out by iStat Menus 3) routinely hits 100 C. (I've never seen it hotter than 102 - 103, it'll hang around 100 for a while, then eventually cool down to mid 90's as a new equilibrium seems to be reached. Will hang there until the processor intensive task is done, then quickly cool off.) Generally idles in the 40's.
I've looked and looked, and found no reassuring consensus on whether or not changing the stock Apple glob of thermal grease for a thin application of Arctic Silver will help this situation. I've found as many no's as yes's on the matter, and about as many different views on the details of MBP cooling as posters expressing them.
So, what I'm really looking for is whether or not anyone's collected a lot of data points on the subject, and can paint any sort of trend based upon a large denominator of users reporting their experiences. I did find links to a website that apparently did this in 2005, or thereabouts, but all those links are dead, and that was well before the dawn of the unibody anyway.
Was wondering if anyone knew of a source of knowledge on this issue that draws from more than educated hypothesis, or one's own experiences.
I'm already planning on routinely jacking up the fan speeds when doing these CPU heavy tasks, and I elevate the computer off the table to help with ventilation. Also, I've seen several people say that the CPU was made to handle these temps, however, I looked at the Intel data sheets on these processors (<http://download.intel.com/design/mobile/datashts/32012001.pdf>, page 102), and the max tjunction temp is 105C, which I'm getting awfully close to whenever I encode.
Thank you!
early 2009 17" MBP (very good condition)
2.93 Core 2 Duo
8 GB RAM
750 GB HD
latest Lion

I say go for it. About a year ago I had to replace the fan system on my old Dell i8200. To do that I had to take the complete system apart. So while I had everything out of the case, laying there in pieces/parts (including taking the heatsink system completely off the CPU/GPU) I cleaned everything and applied Arctic Silver to both CPU/GPU. System ran cooler then the first day I took it out of the box new.
Personally I would disregard the comment above. Yes you can use WAY to Much thermal paste but if you cover the complete CPU with a thin even layer (even if it is a little to much) it will still work fine, as long as you move the heatsink around when resetting it to even it all out.
From reports from other Mac users, the one that have Baked there logic boards to fix the 2008 NVidia problem that Apple refuses to stand up for, that when they took there systems apart there was thermal paste everywhere. Clearly Apple assemblers think that if a little is good a whole bunch is better. Which isn't the case. But what do they care. The assemblers need something like Macdonald's has for dispensing Ketchup. One squirt and you always get the same amount.
Go For It.
Good Luck.

MBP vs MB - thermal grease...

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