No Color Management will activate ColorSync?

Dear all,
I'm trying to print out the profiling target via Photoshop CS4. As usual, I made sure my target is Untagged; under print preview I choose "No Color Management"; Under Epson Printer Driver, I choose "No Color Adjustment" with the correct settings for that specific paper. After I print out the target and waited for 48 hrs, then I start to scan my sheets and creat a profile with it. But when I compare the custom made profile to the generic profile, it is almost half of the size smaller. I've tried with different types of paper, profiling software (ProfileMaker, i1Match, MonacoProfiler, Pulse) and printers including 2880, 4880 and 9880. They all came out the same way. I've been told that the ColorSync is activated by Photoshop even I've already selected "No Color Management" under Print Preview and ColorSync will automatically assign the default paper profile for that printer. Please can someone tells me is there any solution for this issue?
My settings:
Intel based MacPro
OSX 10.5.8 with the latest Update
ColorSync (The latest version)
Photoshop CS4 with the latest Update
Epson Printer (2880, 4880, 9880) with the latest driver
Thanks
Aaron

My testing would seem to suggest that the problem arises just after CS4 sends the target to the driver. What I have found, and it was also stated on other forums, was that if I assign a profile of "generic RGB" and set the colorsync default space to "generic RGB" I get a target sent to the Epson driver that goes thru a NULL profile conversion and thus unchanged. Turning color management off in the driver then prints the target with output looking like I expected. All of this seems to me to suggest that colorsync (Apple) is the issue. This would also seem to be the thoughts of others on this forum.
So... My question to Adobe, who should have far more pull with Apple than I, is what is being done to resolve this issue and that when something is sent to the driver with "NO COLOR MANAGEMENT" it truly means ZERO color management in the workflow? I understand that this issue will never be experienced by casual users of the product but it is affecting most of the professional / higher end users.
John
If you had really bothered to read all the forum threads here and elsewhere, you would be aware that old drivers or bad installs of drivers is the problem here that causes the double profiling with Apple new printing path.
My question to you is what do you expect Adobe or Apple to do about this when most all current SL drivers for current printers work correctly? Whose fault is it if the printer manufactures choose not to support new OSs for there old legacy printers?
You have a lots of choices or workarounds to print correct color.
Use old or other OSs, drivers, that support your old printer.
Use workarounds that some of us have come up with.
Print with applications that use the old print path.
Purchase new printers with drivers that support the new OS.
Complain to Epson if that is your printer of choice.

Similar Messages

Color management issues with colorsync utility

hi all,
I'm trying to properly color manage my workflow from camera to monitor to printer and I read through the entire manual on the "colorsync utility" which is supposed to do this. That's an hour of my life I'll never get back. Anyway the color is different on my camera's screen from my computer monitor and the final output is radically different.
I've used the ICC profile for my camera (Canon Rebel XT) and I've visually callibrated my monitor. I'm using a Canon IP 4600 with a continuous ink system (non OEM ink).
What I need to know is how do I change the color space visually? What I mean is without spending hundreds on colorometers etc. I know how to manually callibrate my computer monitor, but how do I ensure that my camera matches my screen and how do I compensate for the non OEM ink?
thanks for any help

Dougfly,
Only an hour wasted? Lucky you. Color is an incredibly complex subject. First, forget matching anything to the small LCD on the back of your camera. That's there as a basic guide and is affected by the internal jpg algorithm of your camera.
2nd, you're not really takeing a color photo with your digital camera, but three separate B&W images in a mosaic pattern, exposed thru separate red, green and blue filters. Actual color doesn't happen until that matrix is demosaiced in either your raw converter, or the in-camera processor (which relies heavily on camera settings, saturation, contrast, mode, etc.)
Having said the above, you can still get very good, predictable results in your workflow. I have a few color management articles on my website that you might find very helpful. Check out the Introduction to Color Management and Monitor and Printer Profiling. In my opinion, a monitor calibration device is the minimum entry fee if you want decent color.
http://www.dinagraphics.com/color_management.php
Lou

Turn off color management in printer driver?

Hello folks:
When I select an icc color profile in Aperture 3 in the Print dialog box, a warning pops up that says "Turn off Color Management in the Printer Driver." I have an Epson R2880, but for the life of me I cannot find a way to turn it off in the driver. Any thoughts? The Epson Printer Utility is also of no help.
Thank you!
--David

Understanding that I have not actually used ColorJunki:
-- A printer is always going to have something manage color. Either an ICC profile at the application level, or the printer driver.
-- The warning is poorly worded. It means "Turn off the PRINTER color management and let Colorsync manage colors." Thus on the greyed out screen you will see that Colorsync is selected.
-- To use a printer profiler you normally print a target sheet. Your software should tell you what settings to use.
-- Next you read the target sheet and the profiler makes you an ICC profile of your printer/paper combination. (The same process that Canon, Epson, Red River, Illford, et al. follow.)
-- You can now use your new, ColorMunki created ICC profile to soft proof your image as you adjust it and, finally,
-- You use that same profile to print. (Remember, the profile is specific to a printer/paper combination and you will still have to set Quality/Media correctly for the paper.)
By selecting the correct ICC profile on the first print screen, you automatically kill printer color management and, with a bit of luck, a good profile, and clement atmospheric conditions, you will actually get a good print.
Trust me on this, I have been getting great prints from Aperture for years. My only gripe is that AP3 no longer lets me at the color options which I used to tweak for my cheap and cheerful Costco paper.

Canon iP5200 and Snow Leopard - Color Management

I was wondering if anyone knows how to completely disable color management when printing using Photoshop CS4 and a Canon iP5200 with the very latest driver 10.26.0.0?
I've seen this link on the Apple website which to me implies that if I set Photoshop CS4 to "No Color Management" and select "Colorsync" under "Color Matching" in the print driver then all color management is switched off, including that of the printer:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?path=Mac/10.6/en/8641.html
This is also what Canon support told me, but is this correct, I'm somehow not convinced? The latest print driver with Snow Leopard has no specific option to turn off color management in the print driver.

What you should do is select Color Matching and set this to 'Canon Color Matching'. This will then let the printer control the colour management.
Note that the colour profiles for the Canon printers are based on the paper stocks used. And the papers that have the largest gamut are the photo papers. So, after setting the Canon Color Matching, open the Quality & Media menu and select the appropriate paper you are using and the Print Quality to High. But don't expect good output if you are using plain paper. Only photo papers should be used with the photo modes.
Pahu

Color management hell?

I could use some help here if any are willing.
Here's the basic problem. I open (import) a TIFF or RAW image in Lightroom, it has a nice blue-purple (stormy) sky. I export it with sRGB color space as a JPEG and open it in IE or Windows Picture and FAX Viewer and my sky is no longer blue-purple, but a much more plain blue. No, not washed out ala Adobe RGB in sRGB space, but more of a color shift in the blue-purple arena.
If I in turn open the JPEG in Photoshop, who's working color space is sRGB, it has the nice blue-purple sky back. Same thing with Firefox with color management on. Here's the JPEG BTW:
http://pics.boinkphoto.com/photos/420737399_UNBiS-O.jpg
Some people I've asked (on DPReview) see it as just blue, some see at the blue-purple if they use a color managed app. My wife's color corrected laptop sees it as just blue under IE.
Ok, so I do my work on a Dell 9300 laptop. The screen has been color corrected using a Spyder 2 to 2.2 gamma and 6500k. My Windows "Color Management" is set to the profile generated by the Spyder. Again inside color corrected apps I see blue-purple, outside just blue. Note also this example image started out as Wide Gamut RGB from a scanner, though I have seen similar from RAW files. It's almost always in the blues and purples - the other colors don't shift (at least much).
I display most of my work on the web. Ideally I'd like the people on the web, most who have no color correction, to see the nice blue-purple (in short I want them to see what I see in Lightroom/Photoshop). Ideally I don't want to "dull down" my Lightroom/Photoshop to match the unmanaged (plain blue), I want to save my images compensated so they won't get dulled down (so they're saved as blue-purple).
So, what, if you are feeling kind enough to answer, should I be setting my color management settings to? I know no two monitors are alike, but how can I make it so the vast majority of people opening my JPEG see close to the same thing I see in Lightroom?
Or perhaps, more directly, what am I missing???
Thanks in advance!
PS: I ran into something that implies it might be related to this:
http://www.brucelindbloom.com/index.html?MunsellCalcHelp.html#BluePurple
But I'm not sure how it applies or how to fix it...

>So, what, if you are feeling kind enough to answer, should I be setting my color management settings to? I know no two monitors are alike, but how can I make it so the vast majority of people opening my JPEG see the exact same thing I see in Lightroom?
The unsatisfactory answer is that you can't. If you export to sRGB, the average person should see what you see, however very few will actually since very few people color manage and even fewer calibrate. What people see should cluster around what you see more or less.
The reason behind the difference you note above is that most LCD screens have a blue primary very different from the sRGB primary. The latter being developed to describe a typical CRT monitor. This difference will shift all blue tints considerably when people do not color manage. and in often unpredictable ways. Some blues will turn purple, while some purples will turn blue. There is a way around it, but you should realize that it will make the situation worse for many people seeing your image. It is described
in this webpage. I highly disagree with many of his statements, but the method will work for your issue. Note that this is generally considered heresy (as it is by me), and as I said for many people you'll shift the color too far. In the end, the only thing you can do is live with the fact that people on uncalibrated monitors and using no color management will see something quite different from you.

All my prints using: Lightroom 5, printer color management turned off, and non-generic ICC profile (e.g. Epson Premium Glossy) have magenta tint or cast

I'm using PC with: Windows 8.1, 64bit, Lightroom 5.4, Epson R3000, 6.75 (latest) driver, color management turned off in printer settings, Lightroom configured to manage color. If I use a generic ICC profile such as Epson sRGB, the prints look OK. But when I use any ICC profile dedicated to my paper and printer combination, such as Epson Premium Glossy, or one created using ColorMunki print profile, the prints all have a medium to heavy magenta tint or cast. The effect can be seen before I even print in the Epson Print Preview. Yet when I soft proof, I don't see this effect. I suspect the problem lies somewhere in the CMM process, but I can't pin it down. Any tips or suggestions are appreciated.

Thank you kindly for your insightful response. As it turns out, the answer is half correct. I've found others who'll say the same thing, that double color management will lead to a very magenta result. I believe this was certainly the case when I first started playing with the settings, Where I went wrong, is that after I corrected my settings by turning off printer manages color and letting Lightroom do the color management, is that the Epson Print Preview was still showing magenta with certain profiles. Not wanting to waste more money on paper and ink, I used the preview to gauge whether I was going to get a normal print or not. Then one day I ignored the print preview's magenta cast as a 'warning' and I went ahead printed the photo anyways. Because I used a profile that I created with ColorMunki Photo, the picture came out perfect (i.e. a very good match to what I was seeing in Lightoom on my monitor). The lesson learned is that for judging the final color correctness, the Epson Print Preview can be way off target and your best bet is to ignore it.

Color management and printer dialog

When I print from PS CS-3 to my Epson R1800 printer I check "Photoshop Manages Color." I immediately get a question, "Did you disable color management in the printer dialog?" I am unable to find where I do this. Can anyone help?

The paths vary from printer-to-printer or even driver-to-driver for the same printer, but should resemble each other. So, for whatever it's worth, I disable this function for my Epson 1280 via:
Page Setup > Printer > Properties > Custom > Advanced. There, under "Color Management", I activate the radio button "No Color Adjustment" which I have come to realize means no color management by the PRINTER, without restricting color management by Photoshop. Do you find a similar route for your 1800?

Color management workflow for beginners..

I am making a movie. I have several hundred clips, shot over a period of almost 5 months. Indoors, outdoors, morning, afternoon, mid day etc. I have gained experience with my Panasonic HMC 151 over the months, and during this time used a variety of settings. I will also use still photos, and use some computer generated graphics made in Daz3D Carrara. All in all - I have a lot of material which look very different.
When layering my clips in After Effects, I want to do it right, and not paint myself into a corner.
When compiling my scenes (compositions) I also want to do it "right".
Most important to me is to get a coherent look and feel. This is the main priority. Later I might wish to change the overall color if I find out I want my movie to look more like a movie than a "video show". For example, I have shot some scenes late in May at noon, ans some scenes in the afternoon in September, and they belong to the same dialog where people talk to each others.
The target media is DVD for home TVs.
Any links to workflows and step-by-step guides (video tutors) on basic approaches on how to avoid the big mistakes is very much appreciated!
ingvarai

ingvarai:
Color Management in indeed an important aspect, but from your description, it seems that you should be concerned with "color correction" first.
Color Management is about getting reliable and predictable color rendition. It's not really about defining the "look" of your project. If your shots are not properly exposed, for example, Color Management will only make it more reliable to assure they're not properly exposed. Color correction is all about fixing those problems, or stylizing the overall look. If two takes don't intercut well, for example, then you have to correct color balance, exposure, so one matches the other.
After Effects includes a ton of effects which can be used for color correction, including Levels, Curves, Hue/Satuarion, etc. And it also includes a streamlined color correction plug-in called Color Finesse. I think the Color Finesse documentation is a good starting point, regardless of what you end up using. If you go to the folder in which After Effects is installed, and look into the "Effects" folder, you should see a folder called Synthetic Aperture. The Color Finesse manual should be inside that folder.
Also, After Effects Help has a section on Color correction and adjustments. It includes a number of links to other resources.
Mark Christiansen's book After Effects CS4 Visual Effects and Compositing Studio Techniques is very recommended.
As for the Color Management workflow, there's a specific white paper on the Adobe web site on this very subject, but I am not sure that's a good starting point. Instead, I think the AE help page on Color Management is better to get your feet wet, and then go through the white paper. Again, there are several links to other resources in the AE Help page about Color Management.

I want to activate Color Management Suite from purchase via internet photoshop, illustrator and indesign, how? thank you for your reply

I want to activate Color Management Suite from purchase via internet photoshop, illustrator and indesign, how? thank you for your reply

hello, I already Bridge CS6 installed but can not be accessed by the> parameters color edition menu. The message said that eereur lme Suite Color Management is not enabled. What should I do?
De : gener7 <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Répondre à : "[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Date : mardi 9 septembre 2014 14:20
À : jp <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Objet : I want to activate Color Management Suite from purchase via internet photoshop, illustrator and indesign, how? thank you for your reply
Download and install Bridge CC, then in the Bridge Edit menu > Color Settings choose the color settings you want to synchronize your CC apps to.
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How do I disable color management on my macbook pro?

I'm trying to profile my new external monitor connected to my mac book pro. How do I turn off color management? Thanks in advance!
Mayoone1

System Preferences --> Security & Privacy (click on lock in lower left corner and enter security info to make changes --> this will activate the "Advanced" button in the lower right corner --> click on it) --> Advanced --> Check the bottom box: "Disable remote control infrared receiver" --> Joy!

Color management in Photoshop Elements...

Hello all
I know this is an Apple forum, but I also know many of you use Photoshop Elements as well, and I think there is a wealth information here.
So, I am very perplexed about something in PSE. I currently have PSE3 for Mac (although the version should not matter for my question).
My question has to do with the color settings in PSE preferences. As you know, one can choose No Color Mgt., Limited Color Mgt. = sRGB, or Full Color Mgt. = Adobe RGB. When I choose full color mgt., overall tones are VERY red. When choosing limited color mgt., colors are slightly red, and no color mgt., colors are fairly neutral. This is all by default. I know how to clean up the color casts, but for general printing, where should I be? I typically only print 4X6 or occasionally 8X10, nothing professionally. When printing, what is the ideal, or preferred Source Space? I have found that if the source space is the same as how the image is tagged, things look pretty good. I also keep the Print Space set to my monitor settings which is the iMac profile. I suppose the issue is that I do not want to have to constantly correct the reddish tones for every photo I manipulate in PSE, although I typically do.
So my basic question is this: What settings are you using in the PSE print dialog box that give you the best looking prints, i.e., source space, print space? How do you color manage you photos? And, what are your color settings in preferences?
Many thanks in advance…

mikwen:
If you compare the sRGB and Adobe RGB color profiles with ColorSync Utility you'll see that the Adobe profile is much wider. I understand it is used for high end CMYK printing or similar. The Adobe profile gives me a much darker onscreen image. Haven't printed with it in quite a while so don't remember what the output was.
Apple uses the sRGB profile in their books and other printed products. So I've setup PSE to use the sRGB profile and set my monitor to sRGB but with a 2.2 gamma. That seems to work for me.
I don't know which camera you have or what color profile it embeds but the Canon's, and others, have a camera profile that is very close to the sRGB. If you installed the software that came with your camera it probably added the camera's profile to the system and you can view it with ColorSync Utility.
Do you Twango?
TIP: For insurance against the iPhoto database corruption that many users have experienced I recommend making a backup copy of the Library6.iPhoto database file and keep it current. If problems crop up where iPhoto suddenly can't see any photos or thinks there are no photos in the library, replacing the working Library6.iPhoto file with the backup will often get the library back. By keeping it current I mean backup after each import and/or any serious editing or work on books, slideshows, calendars, cards, etc. That insures that if a problem pops up and you do need to replace the database file, you'll retain all those efforts. It doesn't take long to make the backup and it's good insurance.
I've written an Automator workflow application (requires Tiger), iPhoto dB File Backup, that will copy the selected Library6.iPhoto file from your iPhoto Library folder to the Pictures folder, replacing any previous version of it. You can download it at Toad's Cellar. Be sure to read the Read Me pdf file.

Photoshop CS3 color management "Save for Web" problem

This problem is getting the best of me.......
After spending 3 full days researching this problem, I am no closer to finding an answer than when I started. I still cannot produce a usable image through the "Save for Web" feature of Photoshop CS3. I have read web page after web page of "Tips, Tricks and Recommendations" from dozens of experts, some from this forum, and still I have no solution... I am exhausted and frustrated to say the least. Here's the simple facts that I know at this point.
I have a web design project that was started in PS CS1. All artwork was created in photoshop and exported to JPG format by using "Save for Web". Every image displays correctly in these browsers (Safari, Camino, FireFox and even Internet Explorer on a PC).
I have recently upgraded to PS CS3 and now cannot get any newly JPG'd image to display correctly. My original settings in CS1 were of no concern to me at the time, because it always just worked, and so I do not know what they were. I have opened a few of my previous images in CS3 and found that sRGB-2.1 displays them more or less accurately. I am using sRGB 2.1 working space. Upon openning these previous image files, I get the "Missing Profile" message and of course I select "Leave as is. Do Not color manage". CS3 assumes sRGB-2.1 working space, opens the file, and all is well.
The problem is when I go to "Save for Web", the saturation goes up, and the colors change. The opposite of what most people are reporting. Here's another important point... new artwork created in CS3 does exactly the same thing, so it's not because of the older CS1 files.
I have tried every combination of "uncompensated color", "Convert to sRGB", "ICC Profile", etc. while saving. I have Converted to sRGB before saving, and my monitor is calibrated correctly.
I have tried setting the "Save for Web" page on 2-up and the "original" on the left is already color shifted before I even hit the "Save" button. Of course, the "Optimized" image on the right looks perfect because I am cheating by selecting the "Use Document Color Profile" item. Why do they even have this feature if doesn't work, or misleads you?
Does anyone have any ideas what could be happening here? Why is this all so screwed up?
CS1 worked fine out of the box.
Final note: I do have an image file I could send along that demonstrates how it is possible to display an image exactly the same in all 4 of the browsers I mentioned with no color differences. It is untagged RGB and somehow it just works.
I am very frustrated with all of this and any suggestions will be appreciated
Thanks,
Pete

>> First of all... I'm using an Adobe RGB image master... I open it and get the Profile Mismatch Screen... I choose Use Enbedded profile... all looks well. Next I go to Proof Setup > Monitor RGB... again all looks well, no change that I can tell.
This has further confused the issue on several points, not the least of which version PS you are doing this with?
>> AdobeRGB> Convert to Profile > Working Space sRGB-2.1... all still looks well... but now, when I go to Proof Setup > Monitor RGB... I see the insane oversaturated look that is driving me nuts.
That is your strongest clue...it sounds like you have a bad system or bad monitor profile. To rule out the monitor profile: Set sRGB as your monitor profile in System Prefs> Displays> Color.
>> Adobe RGB image master... I open it and get the Profile Mismatch Screen... I choose Use Enbedded profile... all looks well. Next I go to Proof Setup > Monitor RGB... again all looks well
That doesn't make sense, stripping an embedded AdobeRGB profile should desaturate the color in Softproof MonitorRGB, especially the reds -- you have something wacky going on there.
At this point I think you need to review the links and get a grip about how color management and profiles work...
BTW, forget about setting ColorSync in PS COlor Settings, use Adobe ACE.
MO,
I think SFW is fixed under CS3 :) By default it Converts to sRGB and strips the profile.

Color management problems printing to Epson R2880 from CS3

I recently purchased an Epson R2880 printer. I am having a lot of trouble getting good color when printing from Photoshop CS3. I am running OS 10.4 on a G4 Mac. I have a high-quality monitor and an EyeOne calibrator. I have spent a total of a few hours on the phone with tech support from the store where I bought the monitor and calibrator, and with Epson. To try and keep it simple, I am using all Epson products (ink, paper, their ICC profiles downloaded from their site). I have calibrated my monitor to brightness: 80, white point: 5000 K, Gamma 2.2.
All that tech support has brought me to the point where prints I get on Epson Velvet Fine Art paper and almost where they match what I see on the monitor, though they still could use a touch more red. I've tried making a slight curves adjustment to the red channel but I still don't quite have it. But it's basically acceptable.
So then I tried Epson Premium Presentation Matte paper. After a lengthy session with the Epson tech, we determined that I can get a print that's almost right by printing out of Preview and letting the printer manage colors. If I make a levels adjustment and brighten it a good bit, I get a very good print. But if I try printing on that paper from CS3 I get something that looks like a washed out black-and-white print with a hint of color in it. The Epson tech (a level 2 tech) told me to use the SPR 2880 Matte Paper-HW profile. Didn't help. At that point he said that he'd done all he could do and that for further assistance I needed to contact Adobe about "advanced settings in Photoshop." Of course, I'd prefer to print out of Photoshop because it gives more options in terms of placement and size of the print on the paper.
So here are my questions:
- Is this kind of thing par for the course, and will I eventually figure out a system that gives me good results all the time with any Epson paper I choose with a minimum of tinkering with levels and curves?
- Or should I expect more from a printer that costs almost $1,000 and should I return it for, say, a Canon?
- Is there information online about those "advanced settings" the Epson tech was referring to?
- Or would I be advised to purchase a one-on-one phone consultation from Adobe Photoshop tech support to resolve these problems?
Thanks,
Helen

Mike,
Gee Ramón, I am guessing Mike did a search for Epson R2880/CS3 and noticed that a Mac user was having the same problem he was. If together, maybe Windows users and Mac users can come together and solve the problems of the Epson R2880, maybe we can set a good example for the Republicans and Democrats in Congress :-).
Anyway, since I posted this problem, I have been working on it getting input from a variety of people. The person who finally helped me was Jim, a tech at ColorHQ.com. If you are in the US or Canada and have to buy a monitor and/or calibrator, definitely consider buying it from them, because they offer free tech support to their customers!
So regarding yellowness, one thing that you definitely should look at is how you're calibrating your monitor. Despite some of the replies above that recommend calibrating to 6500K, ColorHQ, which specializes in solutions for the printing industry, told me that calibrating to 5000K is the print industry standard. (While 6500K is the standard for working on images for the web or for editing video.) 5000K will make the monitor look yellower, so see whether that's a better match to what you're printing. I have an Eizo monitor and am running their Color Navigator software. The nice thing about that is something called Color Navigator Agent that allows me to switch between calibration profiles on the fly if I'm doing some web work and then want to work on images for printing.
Calibrating to 5000K was helpful, but not the solution in my case. The ultimate solution to my problem was more of a Mac issue, so I don't know if this will help you, but I'll post it in case anyone refers to this discussion in the future: there evidently IS an issue with ColorSync Utility in the Mac interfering with Photoshop managing colors in OS 10.4. In my case, ColorSync was causing the printer to preserve RGB values rather than use the ICC profile. The afore-mentioned Jim suggested that I go to Edit: Convert to Paper Profile, then pick the profile from the list. When printing, in the first Photoshop dialog box choose Color Handling: No color management. All the other settings in the next dialog box are the same as when you don't want the Epson to manage colors. So what you're doing is making it so the profile is built into the file, and neither Photoshop nor Epson are managing colors.
The result to this was MUCH better. The soft proof is a little redder than the print, but I can adjust that by creating a curves adjustment layer and pulling down the red curve in the middle a little bit if I want to see what the print will look like. I can live with that.
Also Jim pointed out that those papers that you mentioned are in fact a little warm in tone -- put Velvet Fine Art next to a piece of ordinary copy paper from say, Staples, and you'll see the difference. He suggested that if it's the matte look I want (it is) that Hahnemuhle makes a couple of papers that are brighter: Photo Rag Baryta and Bright White He also likes Ilford Gold Fiber silk, but that's a luster satin finish. You can download the Hahnemuhle profiles from Hahnemuhle's web site and compare them in "Soft Proof" mode in Photoshop with the Epson papers you mentioned and get an idea of the difference with your images. I haven't actually printed on them yet, but I see what he means.
Good luck, and I'd be interested to know how it goes for you.
--Helen

Color Managed Printing from LR 1.3.1 Inverse of Proper PS CS3 10.0.1 Behavior

Please excuse the length and detail of this post - I'm just trying to be very clear...
Also, it would be helpful if anyone having definitive information about this topic could please email me directly in addition to replying to this forum topic, in order that I might know a response is available sooner (I am new to this forum, and may not check it regularly). My direct email address is [email protected].
Bottom Line: Color managed printing using my own custom-generated profiles from LR 1.3.1 to my Epson 7600 (on Intel-based Mac OS X 10.5.2, but saw the same behavior with 10.5.1) using the current Epson 7600 Intel/10.5x-compatible driver (3.09) is broken, and appears to be doing the exact opposite (inverse) of what I would expect and what PS CS3 does properly.
I am color management experienced, and have been using my custom-generated EPSON 7600 profiles with reliable soft proofing and printing success in PS (both CS2 and now CS3) for some time now. I know how the EPSON printer driver should be set relative to PS/LR print settings to indicate desired function. Images exported from LR to PS and printed from PS using "Photoshop Manages Color" and proper printer driver settings ("No Color Adjustment") print perfectly, so it isn't the Intel-based Mac, the OS, the driver, the profile, or me -- it is LR behaving badly.
The specific behavior is that printing from LR using "Managed by Printer" with the EPSON driver's Color Management setting set properly to "Colorsync" prints a reasonable-looking print, about what you would expect for canned profiles from the manufacturer, and in fact identical to the results obtained printing the same image from PS using "Printer Manages Color". So far so good. Switching to my specific custom profiles in LR and printing with the driver's CM setting set properly to "No Color Adjustment" yields results that are clearly whacked, for both LR settings of "Perceptual" and "Relative CM". Just for completeness and out of curiosity, I tried printing from LR using the same profile (once for "Perceptual" and once more for "Relative CM") with the EPSON driver's CM setting set IMPROPERLY to "Colorsync", and the results were much more in line with what you would expect - I would almost say it was "correct" output. This is why I used the phrase "inverse of proper behavior" in the subject line of this topic. Going one step further, trying this same set of improper settings in PS (PS print settings set to "Photoshop Manages Color" with either Perceptual or Rel CM selected, but using "Colorsync" rather than "No Color Adjustment" in the Color Management pane of the EPSON printer driver) yields whacked results as you would expect that look identical to the whacked results obtained from LR using "proper" settings.
I said above that the improper settings from LR yielded results that I would almost say were correct. "Almost" because the benchmark results rendered by PS using proper settings are slightly different - both "better" and closer to each other - than those rendered by LR using the improper settings. The diffs between the Perceptual and Rel CM prints from LR using improper settings showed more marked differences in tone/contrast/saturation than the diffs observed between the Perceptual and Rel CM prints from PS using proper settings - the image itself was in-gamut enough that diffs between Perceptual and Rel CM in the proper PS prints were quite subtle. Even though the improper LR prints were slightly inferior to the proper PS prints, the improper LR prints were still within tolerances of what you might expect, and still better (in terms of color matching) than the "Managed by Printer" print from LR. At first guess, I would attribute this (the improper LR prints being inferior to the proper PS prints) to the CMM being used by LR being different from (inferior to) the CMM I have selected for use in PS (that being "Adobe (ACE)"). I can live with the LR CMM being slightly different from that use

(Here's the 2nd half of my post...)
I said above that the improper settings from LR yielded results that I would almost say were correct. "Almost" because the benchmark results rendered by PS using proper settings are slightly different - both "better" and closer to each other - than those rendered by LR using the improper settings. The diffs between the Perceptual and Rel CM prints from LR using improper settings showed more marked differences in tone/contrast/saturation than the diffs observed between the Perceptual and Rel CM prints from PS using proper settings - the image itself was in-gamut enough that diffs between Perceptual and Rel CM in the proper PS prints were quite subtle. Even though the improper LR prints were slightly inferior to the proper PS prints, the improper LR prints were still within tolerances of what you might expect, and still better (in terms of color matching) than the "Managed by Printer" print from LR. At first guess, I would attribute this (the improper LR prints being inferior to the proper PS prints) to the CMM being used by LR being different from (inferior to) the CMM I have selected for use in PS (that being "Adobe (ACE)"). I can live with the LR CMM being slightly different from that used in PS - that is not the issue here. What is at issue is trying to determine why LR is clearly behaving differently than PS in this well-understood area of functionality, all other variables being the same. (And, incidentally, why am I not seeing other posts raising these same questions?)
My "workaround" is to use "Managed by Printer" for printing rough prints from LR and to do all other printing from PS, especially given the noted diffs in CMM performance between LR and PS and the fact that printing from PS also supports using Photokit Sharpener for high-quality prints. Still it would be nice to understand why this is happening in LR and to be able to print "decent" prints directly from LR when it seemed appropriate.
Any insights or suggestions will be very much appreciated. Please remember to reply to my direct email address ([email protected]) in addition to your public reply to this forum.
Thank you!
/eddie

Need help understanding profiles and color management

I made the big leap from inexpensive inkjets to:
1 Epson 3800 Standard
2 Spyder3Studio
I have a Mac Pro Quad, Aperture, PS3, etc.
I have a steep learning curve ahead, here's what I've done:
1 Read a lot of books, watched tutorials, etc.
2 Calibrated the monitor
3 Calibrated the printer several times and created .icc profiles
What I've found:
1 The sample print produced by Spyder3Print, using the profile I created with color management turned off in the print dialog, looks very good.
2 When I get into Aperture, and apply the .icc profile I created in the proofing profile with onscreen proofing, the onscreen image does not change appreciably compared with the no proof setting. It gets slightly darker
3 When I select File>Print image, select the profile I created, turn off color management and look a the resulting preview image it looks much lighter and washed out than the onscreen image with onscreen proofing turned on.
4 When I print the image, it looks the same as was shown in the print preview...light and washed out, which is much different than what is shown in edit mode.
5 When I open PS3 with onscreen soft-proofing, the onscreen image is light and washed out...just like displayed in PS3 preview. If I re-edit the image to look OK onscreen, and print with the profile and color management turned off, the printed image looks OK.
So, why am I confused?
1 In the back of my simplistic and naive mind, I anticipated that in creating a custom printer profile I would only need to edit a photo once, so it looks good on the calibrated screen, and then a custom printer profile will handle the work to print a good looking photo. Different profiles do different translations for different printers/papers. However, judging by the PS work, it appears I need to re-edit a photo for each printer/paper I encounter...just doesn't seem right.
2 In Aperture, I'm confused by the onscreen proofing does not present the same image as what I see in the print preview. I'm selecting the same .icc profile in both locations.
I tried visiting with Spyder support, but am not able to explain myself well enough to help them understand what I'm doing wrong.
Any help is greatly appreciated.

Calibrated the printer several times and created .icc profiles
You have understand that maintaining the colour is done by morphing the colourants, and you have understood that matching the digital graphic display (which is emissive) to the print from the digital graphic printer (which is reflective) presupposes a studio lighting situation that simulates the conditions presupposed in the mathematical illuminant model for media independent matching. Basically, for a display-to-print match you need to calibrate and characterise the display to something like 5000-55000 kelvin. There are all sorts of arguments surrounding this, and you will find your way through them in time, but you now have the gist of the thing.
So far so good, but what of the problem posed by the digital graphic printer? If you are a professional photographer, you are dependent on your printer for contract proofing. Your prints you can pass to clients and to printers, but your display you cannot. So this is critical.
The ICC Specification was published at DRUPA Druck und Papier in Düsseldorf in May 1995 and ColorSync 2 Golden Master is on the WWDC CD for May 1995. Between 1995 and 2000 die reine Lehre said to render your colour patch chart in the raw condition of the colour device.
The problem with this is that in a separation the reflectance of the paper (which is how you get to see the colours of the colourants laid down on top of the paper) and the amount of colourant (solid and combinations of tints) gives you the gamut.
By this argument, you would want to render the colour patch chart with the most colourant, but what if the most colourant produces artifacts? A safer solution is to have primary ink limiting as part of the calibration process prior to rendering of the colour patch chart.
You can see the progression e.g. in the BEST RIP which since 2002 has been owned by EFI Electronics for Imaging. BEST started by allowing access to the raw colour device, with pooling problems and whatnot, but then introduced a primary ink limiting and linearisation.
The next thing you need to know is what colour test chart to send to the colour device, depending on whether the colour device is considered an RGB device or a CMYK device. By convention, if the device is not driven by a PostScript RIP it is considered an RGB device.
The colour patch chart is not tagged, meaning that it is deviceColor and neither CIEBased colour or ICCBased colour. You need to keep your colour patch chart deviceColor or you will have a colour characterisation of a colour managed conversion. Which is not what you want.
If the operating system is colour managed through and through, how do you render a colour test chart without automatically assigning a source ICC profile for the colourant model (Generic RGB Profile for three component, Generic CMYK Profile for four component)?
The convention is that no colour conversion occurs if the source ICC device profile and the destination ICC device profile are identical. So if you are targetting your inkjet in RGB mode, you open an RGB colourant patch chart, set the source ICC profile for the working space to the same as the destination ICC profile for the device, and render as deviceColor.
You then leave the rendered colourant test chart to dry for one hour. If you measure a colourant test chart every ten minutes through the first hour, you may find that the soluble inkjet inks in drying change colour. If you wait, you avoid this cause of error in your characterisation.
As you will mainly want to work with loose photographs, and not with photographs placed in pages, when you produce a contract proof using Absolute Colorimetric rendering from the ICC profile for the printing condition to the ICC profile for your studio printer, here's a tip.
Your eyes, the eyes of your client, and the eyes of the prepress production manager will see the white white of the surrounding unprinted margins of the paper, and will judge the printed area of the paper relative to that.
If, therefore, your untrimmed contract proof and the contract proof from Adobe InDesign or QuarkPress, or a EFI or other proofing RIP, are placed side by side in the viewing box your untrimmed contract proof will work as the visual reference for the media white.
The measured reference for the media white is in the ICC profile for the printing condition, to be precise in the WTPT White Point tag that you can see by doubleclicking the ICC profile in the Apple ColorSync Utility. This is the lightness and tint laid down on proof prints.
You, your client and your chosen printer will get on well if you remember to set up your studio lighting, and trim the blank borders of your proof prints. (Another tip: set your Finder to neutral gray and avoid a clutter of white windows, icons and so forth in the Finder when viewing.)
So far, so good. This leaves the nittygritty of specific ICC profiling packages and specific ICC-enabled applications. As for Aperture, do not apply a gamma correction to your colourant patch chart, or to colour managed printing.
As for Adobe applications, which you say you will be comparing with, you should probably be aware that Adobe InDesign CS3 has problems. When targetting an RGB printing device, the prints are not correctly colour managed, but basically bypass colour management.
There's been a discussion on the Apple ColorSync Users List and on Adobe's fora, see the two threads below.
Hope this helps,
Henrik Holmegaard
technical writer
References:
http://www.adobeforums.com/webx?14@@.59b52c9b/0
http://lists.apple.com/archives/colorsync-users/2007/Nov/msg00143.html

No Color Management will activate ColorSync?

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