The SSD myth unraveled

Written September 2011.
Introduction
SSD's are hot. Everybody talks about them and they are rumored to be the non-plus-ultra for performance gains. I write this to create a more realistic view on where we are now with SSD's.
SSD's have the reputation of being very fast, much faster than conventional hard disks. There are many reports on the internet that investing in SSD's will give you huge performance benefits and that is the explanation why so many people consider SSD's a must have for the ultimate performance experience. Unfortunately - and this is especially true for video editors - this is mostly a hype and not a wise decision.
Let's start with the basics.
They are physically small, have no moving parts, are quiet, cool and expensive per GB. The small physical dimensions mean that you can easily fit 4 SSD's in a single 5.25" bay. Because there are no moving parts they are quieter than conventional disks. They also operate at lower temperatures than conventional disks, which is a distinct advantage in a crowded system. Average access time is negligent in comparison to conventional disks. SSD's are not as susceptible to fill-rate degradation as conventional disks. (Conventional disks tend to show performance degradation when filled for more than 60%. Not so for SSD's). But there is the cost aspect and the reliability question.
But the most important question is performance. Does it justify the extra cost for the increase in performance?
Currently, the price per GB for a SSD of the latest generation is generally around $ 1.40 - $ 2.00, depending on the model, capacity and brand. A conventional disk is around $ 0.05 - $ 0.06 per GB and that means a SSD is around 30 times more expensive per GB. Is it worth the difference?
According to many, the answer is yes, it is worth it, but I beg to differ. Proponents of SSD's claim that the transfer rates of SSD's with figures of 500 MB/s are way faster than the 120+ MB/s of modern conventional hard disks and that justifies the extra cost. If this were true, why don't we see those performance gains in our benchmark? What is wrong with these claims of unprecedented speeds?
The background
Manufacturer's claims of IOPS - which are irrelevant for video editing - and sequential transfer rates are based on highly compressible data in 4K blocks, something that video data are not, because they have already been heavily compressed. It boils down to writing only 0's and compressing those 0's to achieve the claimed transfer rates of 500 MB/s, but effectively only around 30 MB/s are transferred. If you were to test effective transfer rates using CrystalDiskMark, which uses random data to benchmark, the compression is far less, because it is random, and then the effective transfer rate of SSD's is reduced to something in the order of 200 MB/s. With video data, the effective transfer rate could well be even much less because of the heavy compression that has already taken place during the shoot.
Interesting to see, and I do not know the answer, whether a heavily compressed codec like AVCHD would show lower transfer rates than less compressed codecs like P2-Intra or 50 Mbps MPEG2.
Write degradation
This is one of the most discussed issues with SSD's. On new SSD's the write speed is almost as good as the read speed, but when using that SSD for a longer time there are serious performance issues while writing data to a SSD. Even with the latest generation SATA3 / Sandhurst SF-2281 SSD's, write performance can easily drop by more than 60% despite the TRIM function. This effectively means in the best case scenario, that a SSD with a claimed transfer rate of 500 MB/s, which delivers less than 200 MB/s read speed with video data, can only deliver 80 MB/s or less write speed when used for some time. That is not too impressive in comparison to conventional disks at a fraction of the cost and less than a simple raid0 with two conventional disks on a ICHR10 on-board controller attains.
If TRIM is not working, the write degradation is even worse and you may count yourself lucky to attain write speeds of 50 MB/s or less. Unfortunately, most SSD's firmware in combination with raid controllers currently have the nasty side effect of disabling the TRIM function, so raiding SSD's is not a serious choice for raid configurations.
The only way to correct this write degradation is by performing a secure erase, which means losing all the data on the SSD, not a nice perspective for anybody, but most of all for notebook users. Are your backups current?
Reliability
NAND memory is susceptible to ageing and most SSD's calculate their lifespan in data transfer values. In a worst case scenario this usually means you can rewrite the complete contents of a SSD around 125 times, before the NAND memory is no longer reliable/useable. Not many people would try that and for a boot disk this means a very, very long time before the useful life of a SSD is at an end, but for video editors it is a different story.
The bottom line on SSD's at this moment of writing
They are the way to go in the future, but not yet.
For OS & program disks they are great, provided you set up Windows to not use the SSD for temp storage. They can easily shave off 3 or 4 seconds from your usual boot time of 60+ seconds, depending on your configuration. (Did you notice any sarcasm in this statement? You should.)
They are a waste of money for video storage and do not deliver any performance gain, because of the compression that has already taken place with the video material and that lowers the transfer rates significantly.
The faster loading of programs, which is often used as an argument for SSD's, is usually limited to 1 second per program or not even be noticeable.
Question
What would you rather have at this moment:
a. 8 TB of net storage with conventional disks for around $ 400 with a sustained transfer rate of 1000 MB/s, or
b. 2 TB of net storage with SSD's for around $ 3000 with the same transfer rate?
Just my $ 0.02

With all due respect, SSD's are not meant to be used as mass storage or scratch disks at this point in time. They are marketed specifically to be used as boot drives. In that respect they perform VERY well... IF... they are setup correctly.
First, they MUST have proper partition alignment. I believe Vista will perform the alignment properly on a new SSD (apparently by shear luck), and Windows 7 supports SSD's by default. Windows XP does not perform a proper alignment so it's up to the user to do it before anything is written to the SSD. If not properly aligned, you just slowed down your brand new SSD by 50%. Sorry, I don't know anything about the Mac OS capabilities.
Also, cloning software MAY overwrite your perfectly aligned SSD and it ends up misaligned. If you're not sure if this will happen with your backup software, align and partition the SSD correctly and then copy "partition to partition" making sure not to resize or move the partition. This is especially important when moving from HDD to SSD. If you clone a HDD, you could be asking the software to rewrite the partition alignment without knowing it.
Next, if TRIM isn't working, it's all downhill. If an SSD is forced to erase before it writes, you just lost any real gains. Some older SSD's need new firmware to handle TRIM. More than likely, a firmware update is available to solve or enhance other features too. Always check for a firmware update before you even begin because some updates might destroy any data on the SSD while others are less destructive.
I've been using an SSD as my boot drive on XP 32bit for well over a year. It's much faster than even the fastest HDD's, uses a fraction of the power and 100% silent. It hasn't slowed down at all in that time but I also did a LOT of research before ever installing it. There are tons of system tweaks to take full advantage of , especially on XP. In looking for those tweaks I discovered the added benefit of using RAM above the 4GB that XP can see for scratch disks and virtual memory etc.
Another important thing to know about SSD's is to refrain from constantly benchmarking them! As stated, each cell can only be written to a limited number of times, so constantly benchmarking one can kill it before its time. However, the useful life hinted to in the OP is far below what today's drives can produce. On an average system, most new SSD's should last at least 5 years and that's longer than a lot of people keep a computer these days. Again, keep in mind, the average boot drive does a lot more reading than actual writing as long as you keep page/swap files, scratch disks, temp folders, cache files and anything else that is constantly updated on your fastest HDD and off your precious SSD.
I've had such great success with my XP SSD, I added another one to boot into Win7 64bit and it was a breeze to install by comparison. Again, the OP's experience varies greatly from my own because I reduced my boot times by almost 1 minute with XP. Granted, my system may be configured far differently than his. If you only have a few programs loaded on a business system, you may not see as much reduction in boot times. But my system is like many other home/office systems with programs accumulated over the years and a registry as long and crooked as the Mississippi. I don't look forward to reinstalls so I prevent them with a passion. The trade off is, the longer a Windows system stays up and running, the messier and slower it gets. But I offset that with regular maintenance, backups, and overclocking. I guess being an ex-computer tech has its benefits and hindrances.
As far as SSD's go, I can appreciate a forum such as this steering people away from them but you have to understand why. They aren't meant to be upgrades for the inexperienced users (yet). You have to know what you're doing and what to expect. SSD's are improving by the day and still aren't meant to be mass storage devices or used as project disks etc. But as boot drives, you cannot beat them. As for laptops, you should seriously look into an SSD when it comes time to upgrade the HDD. Less power consumption and they can cut your boot time in half. I opted to upgrade my laptop with a hybrid drive which uses a SSD cache for storing popular system files on a HDD with loads of storage. That also cut my boot and load times almost in half after the 2nd boot. Far cheaper than true SSD and lots more storage.
PS. I'd like to thank the OP for his help in another thread which prompted me to move to 64bit for CS5.5 and help choosing a new graphics card. I can tell you the Zotac GTX580 AMP is fantastic and works great with CS5.5. I can overclock it to almost 1Ghz on water cooling but that's more for fun than actual rendering speed. Thanks again!

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       #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
       0:      GUID_partition_scheme                        *121.3 GB   disk0
       1:                        EFI EFI                     209.7 MB   disk0s1
       2:                  Apple_HFS Macintosh HD            120.5 GB   disk0s2
       3:                 Apple_Boot Recovery HD             650.0 MB   disk0s3
    /dev/disk1
       #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
       0:      GUID_partition_scheme                        *3.0 TB     disk1
       1:                        EFI EFI                     209.7 MB   disk1s1
       2:          Apple_CoreStorage                         1.9 TB     disk1s2
       3:                 Apple_Boot Recovery HD             650.0 MB   disk1s3
       4:          Apple_CoreStorage                         251.9 GB   disk1s4
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    /dev/disk2
       #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
       0:     Apple_partition_scheme                        *1.3 GB     disk2
       1:        Apple_partition_map                         30.7 KB    disk2s1
       2:                  Apple_HFS OS X Base System        1.3 GB     disk2s2
    /dev/disk3
       #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
       0:                  Apple_HFS Untitled               *1.9 TB     disk3
                                     Logical Volume on disk1s2
                                     FD9357F1-1A71-44A0-A01E-41C84F1C8047
                                     Unencrypted
    /dev/disk4
       #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
       0:                  Apple_HFS Untitled               *251.5 GB   disk4
                                     Logical Volume on disk1s4
                                     31B60F49-6981-47A3-9815-6396AD3A9BD6
                                     Unencrypted
    /dev/disk5
       #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
       0:                            untitled               *5.2 MB     disk5
    /dev/disk6
       #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
       0:                            untitled               *524.3 KB   disk6
    /dev/disk7
       #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
       0:                            untitled               *524.3 KB   disk7
    /dev/disk8
       #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
       0:                            untitled               *524.3 KB   disk8
    /dev/disk9
       #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
       0:                            untitled               *524.3 KB   disk9
    /dev/disk10
       #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
       0:                            untitled               *524.3 KB   disk10
    /dev/disk11
       #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
       0:                            untitled               *6.3 MB     disk11
    /dev/disk12
       #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
       0:                            untitled               *2.1 MB     disk12
    /dev/disk13
       #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
       0:                            untitled               *1.0 MB     disk13
    /dev/disk14
       #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
       0:                            untitled               *524.3 KB   disk14
    /dev/disk15
       #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
       0:                            untitled               *524.3 KB   disk15
    /dev/disk16
       #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
       0:                            untitled               *1.0 MB     disk16
    /dev/disk17
       #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
       0:      GUID_partition_scheme                        *319.4 GB   disk17
       1:                        EFI EFI                     209.7 MB   disk17s1
       2:                  Apple_HFS IMAC TMB                319.0 GB   disk17s2
    /dev/disk18
       #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
       0:                            untitled               *6.3 MB     disk18
    /dev/disk19
       #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
       0:        CD_partition_scheme                        *804.4 MB   disk19
       1:     Apple_partition_scheme                         700.4 MB   disk19s0
       2:        Apple_partition_map                         32.3 KB    disk19s0s1
       3:                  Apple_HFS WD SmartWare            237.5 MB   disk19s0s2
    -bash-3.2#
    diskutil cs list
    -bash-3.2# diskutil cs list
    CoreStorage logical volume groups (2 found)
    |
    +-- Logical Volume Group 687E889E-B4A1-4F20-8B36-43D7A3701076
    |   =========================================================
    |   Name:         Untitled
    |   Status:       Online
    |   Size:         1946162462720 B (1.9 TB)
    |   Free Space:   5402624 B (5.4 MB)
    |   |
    |   +-< Physical Volume 7BCD8D9C-AEB2-4D48-B248-257EFC7EA922
    |   |   ----------------------------------------------------
    |   |   Index:    0
    |   |   Disk:     disk1s2
    |   |   Status:   Online
    |   |   Size:     1946162462720 B (1.9 TB)
    |   |
    |   +-> Logical Volume Family 3A8A9627-5963-49BA-8E2F-96DC7A1B033D
    |       ----------------------------------------------------------
    |       Encryption Status:       Unlocked
    |       Encryption Type:         None
    |       Conversion Status:       NoConversion
    |       Conversion Direction:    -none-
    |       Has Encrypted Extents:   No
    |       Fully Secure:            No
    |       Passphrase Required:     No
    |       |
    |       +-> Logical Volume FD9357F1-1A71-44A0-A01E-41C84F1C8047
    |           ---------------------------------------------------
    |           Disk:                  disk3
    |           Status:                Online
    |           Size (Total):          1945804734464 B (1.9 TB)
    |           Conversion Progress:   -none-
    |           Revertible:            No
    |           LV Name:               Untitled
    |           Volume Name:           Untitled
    |           Content Hint:          Apple_HFS
    |
    +-- Logical Volume Group 98213AE6-9EA8-4FB7-8B72-8E08BFBFD82C
        =========================================================
        Name:         Untitled
        Status:       Online
        Size:         251864797184 B (251.9 GB)
        Free Space:   5226496 B (5.2 MB)
        |
        +-< Physical Volume 20CEF763-635D-4A0D-A107-40E8FB161D06
        |   ----------------------------------------------------
        |   Index:    0
        |   Disk:     disk1s4
        |   Status:   Online
        |   Size:     251864797184 B (251.9 GB)
        |
        +-> Logical Volume Family 2D3173B3-5B04-47E6-B331-49D1BA58E9F2
            Encryption Status:       Unlocked
            Encryption Type:         None
            Conversion Status:       NoConversion
            Conversion Direction:    -none-
            Has Encrypted Extents:   No
            Fully Secure:            No
            Passphrase Required:     No
            |
            +-> Logical Volume 31B60F49-6981-47A3-9815-6396AD3A9BD6
                Disk:                  disk4
                Status:                Online
                Size (Total):          251507245056 B (251.5 GB)
                Conversion Progress:   -none-
                Revertible:            No
                LV Name:               Untitled
                Volume Name:           Untitled
                Content Hint:          Apple_HFS
    -bash-3.2#
    Disk0
    -bash-3.2# gpt -vv -r show /dev/disk0
    gpt show: /dev/disk0: mediasize=121332826112; sectorsize=512; blocks=236978176
    gpt show: /dev/disk0: PMBR at sector 0
    gpt show: /dev/disk0: Pri GPT at sector 1
    gpt show: /dev/disk0: Sec GPT at sector 236978175
          start       size  index  contents
              0          1         PMBR
              1          1         Pri GPT header
              2         32         Pri GPT table
             34          6        
             40     409600      1  GPT part - C12A7328-F81F-11D2-BA4B-00A0C93EC93B
         409640  235298960      2  GPT part - 48465300-0000-11AA-AA11-00306543ECAC
      235708600    1269536      3  GPT part - 426F6F74-0000-11AA-AA11-00306543ECAC
      236978136          7        
      236978143         32         Sec GPT table
      236978175          1         Sec GPT header
    -bash-3.2#
    Disk1
    -bash-3.2# gpt -vv -r show /dev/disk1
    gpt show: /dev/disk1: mediasize=3000592982016; sectorsize=512; blocks=5860533168
    gpt show: /dev/disk1: PMBR at sector 0
    gpt show: /dev/disk1: Pri GPT at sector 1
    gpt show: /dev/disk1: Sec GPT at sector 5860533167
           start        size  index  contents
               0           1         PMBR
               1           1         Pri GPT header
               2          32         Pri GPT table
              34           6        
              40      409600      1  GPT part - C12A7328-F81F-11D2-BA4B-00A0C93EC93B
          409640  3801098560      2  GPT part - 53746F72-6167-11AA-AA11-00306543ECAC
      3801508200     1269536      3  GPT part - 426F6F74-0000-11AA-AA11-00306543ECAC
      3802777736        1912        
      3802779648   491923432      4  GPT part - 53746F72-6167-11AA-AA11-00306543ECAC
      4294703080      262144      5  GPT part - 426F6F74-0000-11AA-AA11-00306543ECAC
      4294965224  1565567911        
      5860533135          32         Sec GPT table
      5860533167           1         Sec GPT header
    -bash-3.2#

  • Is the SSD in my rMPB corrupt?

    Ok, this post might be a bit long. Fast forward down to larger text if you don't need the background
    Background
    I got my Macbook Pro Retina with 512 MB SSD two days ago, and the problems started immediately.
    When downloading and installing all the applications and data I need, Safari suddenly started complaining that there was no more available space (still had 400+ GB free).
    I installed Mountain Lion, no appearant problems.
    Then it started freezing. The old rotating ball thing. One application (i e Terminal) could freeze while others worked, but when trying to force quit the frozen applications, or switching to other applications, all of them would stop responding. In the end, there was nothing else to do but to hold down the power button and restart it. The fans would be working 100% and neither top nor Activity Monitor gave any hint as to what processes froze. Actually, according to Activity Monitor, it was top that froze (top isn't the problem, just to be clear)
    This happened maybe once per hour or so. I thought maybe something went wrong with the installation, so I reinstalled it (no clean install, just ran the installer on top of the old installation).
    It seemed to be working. No freezes over night or today. Until I closed the lid, carried it for 10 secs, opened the lid and yay. Black screen, fans are working 100%. Nothing happens. "Maybe it froze again, while the screen was turned off, and now it is just frozen?"
    I do a hard reboot again. Start it up, and nothing. The folder with '?' appears. "Oh well, guess I need a clean install anyway."
    I have created a Mountain Lion USB-stick so I boot it up.
    The problem
    The disk utility now says that my SSD is about 3500 petabytes. 3.6 EB. I've restarted it several times, tried both the recovery mode and ML installer, sometimes the SSD reports it is 18 EB, sometimes 9 EB, sometimes 3.6 EB. I've tried reformatting it, repartitioning it, but it doesn't work. It complains that it cant write to the last block of the device. No wonder if it is trying to write at the end of 3.6 EB.
    I tried resetting PRAM and NVRAM, although I was pretty sure that wouldn't help. And it didn't
    Here is some diskutil output:
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    The computer is a 2.6 GHz rMBP, BTO with 16 GB RAM.
    What do you think, is the SSD broken and I should return it or can I fix it with some software wizardry myself?
    Been waiting for 4 weeks for this computer to be delivered, I'm kinda bummed about this to be honest.

    Another update.
    The computer has been working OK since the last post.
    I've had two kernel panics which is out of the ordinary. The second was I could track to my Line6 audio interface driver, so I'm not entirely blaming it on the Macbook.
    Today I bought a 2.5" USB hard drive (USB-powered). I was unable to partition it with Disk Utility. The application just froze and the HDD was unavailable after I force quit Disk Utility. I connected it to my iMac instead, and partitioned it with no problems.
    After that (or at least I noticed it now) I am no longer able to browse some of the subfolder in my Dropbox folder. I can list the files in those folder in the Terminal, no problem, just "cd" and "ls", but Finder just keeps "loading" as if loading file list from a slow network device.
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  • I have a hdd from late 2009 that I upgraded from leopard to snow leopard to lion to mountain lion.  I want to upgrade the hdd to ssd.  Do I need to buy a new copy of mountain lion to install on the ssd?  If not, then what is the procedure to transfer?

    I have a hdd from a late 2009 mbp.  I upgraded from leopard to snow leopard to lion to mountain lion.  Now I want to upgrade to a ssd.  Do I need to purchase a new copy of mountain lion to go on my new ssd? If I don't, then what is the procedure to transfer mountain lion with my 4 user accounts onto the new ssd from the hdd?
    I'm confused on if I can use the recovery hd on a thumb drive to install mountain lion on my ssd.  Will it be pheasible with so many OS X upgrades?  And then how do I get my user accounts onto the ssd from the hdd.  Do I use migration assistant?  Do I need to make a time machine backup first?  Should I use something called Carbon Clone or something like that?
    Thanks for reading

    If you have a cable that connects and external HDD to the MBP, it will do.  If it is something like this, an  enclosure will not be needed for the swap:
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    1. Make certain that you have backed up all of your important data.
    2. You will need a HDD enclosure.  One with a USB connection will do.  A 9 pin Firewire is better.
    3. Install your new drive in the enclosure and connect it to your MBP.
    4. Open DISK UTILITY>ERASE.  From the left hand column drag the new drive into the 'Name' field.  Make sure that the format is 'Mac OS Extended (Journaled)'.  Click on the 'Erase' button.
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    If there is any confusion on your part, post back.
    Ciao.

  • How do I find the SSd for my MacBookair 2012 13"

    How do I find the SSD for my MacBook Air 2012 13"?

    If your somewhat obscure question is asking for larger alternative storage, look here:
    eshop.macsales.com/shop/SSD/OWC/Air-Retina/Apple-MacBook-Air-2012-Drive-Internal -Flash
    Otherwise I must agree with Csound1'
    Ciao.

  • Can I install CS6 on the SSD and HDD of the same computer without losing licence?

    I just upgraded my Macbook Pro, Mac OS X 10.6.8 with a new SSD.
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    Same question will go for LR4.

    on you hdd, open cs6 programs and click help>deactivate.
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  • My Windows 7 Professional desktop system hard disk got corrupted and I took the opportunity to install an SSD for a new system disk and reinstall Windows.  The system is up and running on the SSD, with my old system disk now used for storage as it is stil

    My Windows 7 Professional desktop system hard disk got corrupted and I took the opportunity to install an SSD for a new system disk and reinstall Windows.  The system is up and running on the SSD, with my old system disk now used for storage as it is still readable.  The only Adobe product I have reinstalled so far is Reader XI but I would like to reinstall Elements 8 and Acrobat 9 without taking up more licences as both are also installed on my laptop.  Can you point me to the best way to do this?  - Thanks

    If you have the two allotted activations already and one was lost on the hard drive that failed then you need to contact Adobe Support thru chat and ask them to reset your activations.
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    Serial number and activation chat support (non-CC)
    http://helpx.adobe.com/x-productkb/global/service1.html ( http://adobe.ly/1aYjbSC )

  • I want to replace the SSD in an HP mini 1010nr. i have 30gb Hitatchi 1.8" drive. does not work.

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    Hi,
    Have you watched this ?
       http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWadcb6yDv8
    Hope this helps.
    BH
    **Click the KUDOS thumb up on the left to say 'Thanks'**
    Make it easier for other people to find solutions by marking a Reply 'Accept as Solution' if it solves your problem.

  • I want to use the SSD from my new 12 core in my old 4 core but the 4 core doesn't see the SSD.  Flashing file with "?".  What do I need to do?

    I spend a lot of time in a location far from home.  I bought a new MacPro 12 core to use at home and took the old 4 core to the alternate location.  I figured I could just take my hard drives back and forth instead of schlepping a whole MacPro.  The 12 core has a SSD drive to boot from and a 2 TB storage drive for photo files.  It came with Mountain Lion (10.8.2).  At the new location the 4 core does not find the SSD and won't boot.  Grey screen.  If I take the SSD out I can boot with the 2TB drive but it boots in OSX 10.6.8.  I can get by with that workaround, but I'd like to use the SSD if I can because PhotoShop runs a lot faster from it. 
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    ...or that the installed image on the SSD came from a model-specific version of Mac OS X that shipped with that Mac, and does not have the drivers to support a different model Macintosh, not even an older Mac Pro.
    You can install a new Mac OS X image, such as "Full Retail" 10.6.3 off a DVD in under an hour, and have it up to date and ready for production in only a little more time.
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  • How can i get the SSD card to show up on my desktop on my MBA?

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