Thermal compound/paste/adhesive

I'm looking to replace the hard drive in a white iMac. I notice there's a temperature sensor stuck to the side of the drive with what appears to be a rubbery type glue. From a little research, something described as a thermal adhesive seems to create a permanent bond which would mean a new temperature sensor would be needed if the drive were ever to be replaced again (and that's if could I get hold of one!) Anything described as a paste or compound does not suggest it has any adhesive qualities in which case it probably would not hold the sensor to the drive at all. Is that correct? If not, could eletrical tape be used to hold sensor and paste/compound to the drive?

Most users simply reuse the adhesive that is already there. I've even seen some people use scotch tape, not recommended but it would work for awhile.

Similar Messages

  • Thermal compound replacement, RESULTS and PICTURES

    YOU CAN HAVE A MACBOOK PRO THAT ISN'T SCORCHING HOT!!
    (note that this will NOT fix any whine or moo; they are unrelated problems)
    Here's how.
    My Mother's Macbook Pro (Or Cookbook, if you will) Arrived a week ago today. I played around with it to make sure everything is alright because my mother doesn't know how to check for things like dead pixels, bad ram, or cough improperly applied thermal compound.
    One of the first things I noticed after turning on the new MBP is how totally sweet it is! The second thing I noticed is how freaking hot it is: I recoiled in pain from the Fn key bar the first time I touched it. Disappointed, I started searching the web and sure enough, pretty much everyone who owns one is complaining that it's too hot for comfortable use.
    Apple calling this a "notebook" instead of a "laptop" is a total semantic cop-out. It's a PORTABLE COMPUTER and I must be able to trust it around my dogs, children, valuables without the MagSafe burning up or the battery swelling and bursting.
    I don't have objective figures for just how hot it was, but it was right about at my pain threshold above and below the belt, and sometimes over it. I couldn't hold my hand to it for more than a few seconds. In particular the area to the left of the touchpad was of concern. I do have before-and-after figures of the CPU and HDD; I invite yourselves to look at them:
    Before After (Temps in degrees C, ambient 25 C)
    50-60 26-35 CPU (idle)
    76-85 56-65 CPU (load)
    41 33 HDD
    In particular the HDD figures are a great relief. HDDs are notoriously sensitive to temperature and even a few degrees C can cut their lifetimes significantly. Furthermore the area is now cool to the touch and I can once again rest my left palm on it without discomfort. The ranges are due to the fact that the sensor inside the core duo is flaky. In 5 seconds it can run anywhere from +-5 to +-10. Nevertheless it is accurate enough for our purposes. Below are photos, procedure, and a rough outline of test methodologies:
    http://www.pbase.com/silentplummet/image/62641589
    Here's the idle scenario before the procedure. The computer has been on for hours (days really) and I'm doing the work I normally do on it. TextEdit is open (to a little project I'm working on) with firefox and the temperature monitor. Alt-tab is to show that those are the only programs running. CPU temp is dead at 50 C. This is INSANE for an idle figure on ANY computer; desktop, laptop, "notebook" or otherwise.
    http://www.pbase.com/silentplummet/image/62641590
    The operation area and stress test. To stress the ATI chip I've jacked up the resolution, run a couple of quartz programs, SNES9x (a hardware emulator; the software shown is called "Energy Breaker") with a brutal multitasking OpenGL hardware renderer, and Google Earth. To get the CPU going I have Adobe's Lightroom processing thumbnails, and again SNES9x. For various I/O I have two shells executing yes > /dev/null, a USB mouse plugged in, and all the HDD access from lightroom. I figure it paints a pretty good picture of the "worst case scenario" of hardware stress for a laptop like this.
    http://www.pbase.com/silentplummet/image/62641591
    The CPU core(s) is at 76 C. I should note that at this point, as hot as the CPU is, overall the case is really not much hotter than it was before. In other words, it's just as unacceptable.
    At this point I turned her off and dug in. I used a howto from Ifixit to serve as my guide. The procedure went without surprises until I got all the way to the logic board.
    http://www.pbase.com/silentplummet/image/62641592
    Dear lord!! That is an obscene amount of compound. It's casting a shadow over the rest of the board!! This gray gak is piled on so thick, it's no wonder the cooling system couldn't work effectively. It had even gotten all over components nowhere near the dies. That definitely cannot be good for their lifespan. Here's a shot of the heatpipe:
    http://www.pbase.com/silentplummet/image/62641593
    Terrible. Thermal compound has been squished out all over the place, including the chassis itself. This explains why it was getting so hot. A photo from the MBP service manual has been floating around the net, illustrating that this gross amount of compound is actually according to procedure.
    http://www.pbase.com/silentplummet/image/62641594
    Clean as a whistle. After removing the bulk of the compound with q-tips I used ArctiClean 2-step process to emulsify the rest and remove it with paper towels. You can see it's not perfect but it's close enough for me. I'm not overclocking this thing; I just want to run it "in spec" and have it not burn me. At this point, the CPU dies and the heat pipe interfaces should have mirror finishes. It's an overclocker's dream, and Apple already did the work for me.
    http://www.pbase.com/silentplummet/image/62641595
    This is how I applied Arctic Silver 5 to replace the compound I removed. Squeeze the tiniest little bit out of the syringe directly on to the die, and scrape it across with a flat edge (they recommend a razor blade but I just used a plastic ID card). Take the amount of compound you see on the Core Duo (on the right) and make a flat, even layer like the one you see on the ATI (left).
    http://www.pbase.com/silentplummet/image/62641596
    Turned it on and went straight for the hard stress test, after making sure everything was OK of course =) Wow! It reads 58 C in the screenshot, and doesn't go above 65C!! Moreover, there isn't even a bit of warmth above the Fn keys, and the HDD area is cool to the touch. I'd call this one a complete success. I'm idling right now and the temperature reads between 26 and 31C. Even the bottom is just slightly warm to the touch. Now I have a real laptop again!
    So why did this happen?
    There's a lot of confusion about the way the Macbook Pro cools itself. I admit it's confusing. Basically, Apple is shipping Macbook Pros with one cooling system, and replacing the thermal compound changes it into a very different system. Let me try to explain what I learned from digging around the hardware.
    1. The built-in thermometer in the CPU is flaky. That's why you have to access it with a kernel extension and all kinds of hacks, and why Apple circumvented it completely in the cooling system. That's right: the MBP cooling system ignores the Core Duo temperature entirely.
    2. The cooling system consists of a convective (my guess, I don't think anyone really knows what kind of) heatpipe which is in the base, directing heat out to two heatsinks which are then to be cooled by two fans if need be.
    3. There are two temperature sensors. One is on the heatpipe itself, and the other one is on the chassis just next to the right fan. Probably the hardware monitors these temperatures and the differential between them to decide when to activate the fans and how long.
    4. Behavior before the replacement procedure: The CPU core would get hot, hotter than I've ever seen a CPU go, at 80-85C. Most people confirm their MBPs also exhibit this. Where was this heat going? Well the fans didn't turn on until I put it at full load. Even when the fans did turn on, there wasn't much warm exhaust coming out of the vents at the back. The chassis heated up until it was unbearable, and most of the excess heat was being radiated away from it.
    To sum up, the ineffective thermal interface between the CPU dies and the heat pipe was inhibiting heat from tripping the fan sensors. This explains why the fans didn't turn on until drastic temperatures were attained, and why the chassis got so hot. Essentially, the chassis was serving as a big heatsink for the CPU, which is the only reason it didn't overheat and shut down.
    Effective, Apple, but not quite appropriate.
    5. Behavior after the replacement procedure: The first thing you notice is that the fans scream from the second you turn the thing on. They aren't going full blast but pretty close to it. An effective thermal interface using an APPROPRIATE AMOUNT of AS5 (anything would do but I figured if I'm applying thermal compound, why not go for the authority) allows the heat to go straight from the cores into the heatpipe, tripping the sensor early and fast. The fans come on, I can feel hot air coming out the back, and the chassis now removed from the thermal equation is cool and comfortable again.
    Of course, the thermal equation is different from before, and from the way Apple has tuned the fans to work from the factory configuration. This is more cooling than we probably need, and I foresee an update to Tiger allowing us to choose the thermal/noise tradeoff for ourselves.
    Well, I hope that explains it, and I hope that those of you still suffering the abuses of your "in spec" MBP can take some hope from my findings, or are emboldened to go ahead and repeat the procedure yourself. I will post informative links here.
    http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/85.1.0.html
    http://www.arcticsilver.com/
    http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1864582 (This is where I learned of the thermal paste issue)
    Remember if you ever open up your MBP to NOT BREAK ANYTHING and please, always read the instructions before you reach in. =)

    methanol, my conclusion is that Apple's specifications for thermal grease application are technically sound. As a corollary, I put the postings claiming that isn't so in the Urban Myth category.
    There's a lot of technical literature on design and manufacturing specifications for thermal grease use, the kind of literature that appears in professional technical publications and is written by engineers. That literature supports Apple's thermal grease specifications. Putting it another way, Apple's engineers have a lot more technical training and experience than the average hobbyist who is working from the directions that came with Arctic Silver.
    Yes, my computer has the "messy" looking application of thermal grease. No, it isn't inappropriate and doesn't need to be modified, and Apple did not make a quality assurance/quality control mistake.
    Posts about the thermal grease modification began appearing several months ago, followed by Hardware Monitor charts showing considerable differences in "before fix" and "after fix" temperatures. I found, however, that I could easily replicate those before and after charts, and my computer compared favorably with the "after fix" temperature charts. Why? There was no quality control on the generation of the charts. And of course some owners damaged their computers in the process of taking them apart and putting them back together. Not a good idea, in my opinion.
    Painstaking manual application of thermal grease might result in an insignificant drop in CPU temperature, perhaps 2 or 3C. Trying that in a mass production situation would result in more CPU failures.
    True, some people got very significant reductions of case temperatures. That will happen if the sensors are not working (broken connection) and the fans run full out.

  • Best way to apply thermal compound

    I'm going to tear down my 3 year old laptop and apply thermal compound to the CPU. I do have a question.
    Some instructions have said to apply it all over the cpu, other say to apply only a rice grain sized, and then push the heatsink onto the cpu and let the pressure from the heatsink push the thermal paste around.
    What do people here say is best?
    Toshiba Satellite L755D-S5218
    AMD A6-3400M Quad-Core CPU
    8 gigs RAM
    Windows 7
    Solved!
    Go to Solution.

    I guess whatever gets results.  I would consider putting thermal compound on both surfaces a waste of material and also likely over-application which can sometimes give worse thermal performance and/or possibly cause other problems if excess thermal compund comes into contace with any other surface mounted devices.  Oh well, glad it all worked out.
    L305-S5955, T9300 Intel Core 2 Duo, 4GB RAM, 60GB SSD, Win 7 Ultimate 64-bit

  • Thermal solutions/paste?

    Hello...
    I'm rather new to building computers-and I just recently completed building my first with a MSI motherboard, and I had question regarding thermal paste/compounds.
    If I'm looking for a stable, working computer (I won't be overclocking), is it best to avoid use any type of thermal paste, and just use the thermal compound that's already included with the HSF? That's how I'm working now-but my temperatures seem a bit high ~55C for CPU and 38C for motherboard (K7N2-L mobo).
    Thanks!

    Kahlila Tovia,
    Anything that comes on a heatsink rated for your CPU will be fine. If you need a compound (for the second time you use the heatsink) then go ASIII. The clasics are the best.
    Did you update the BIOS on your mobo? The temps on the Release BIOS were reading 10c too night.
    Take Care,
    Richard
    P.S. Where is your Retired Druid?

  • OEM thermal compound not adequately applied?

    The last two laptops I have had, have had overheating issues that were solved by removing the original thermal compound, and applying arctic silver 5. This current laptop (see sig), has had slight fan issues every since I bought it three years ago. There was one program that utlized flash (Encyclopedia Britannica) that would start my fan running loudly every time I started the program. After applying new thermal compound, I started that program and the fans stayed silent. And this laptop has been very silent (meaning, no fans) continually since this new application of compound.
    I'm wondering now, if it would be worth the time and effort to tear down even a new laptop, as soon as any type of overheating issue presented itself, and take care of the paste. I'm suspecting that this laptop came out of the factory with a pretty crummy application, because after this new application, it has never been so quiet, not even in the first few weeks I owned it.  It could also be that I shot compressed air and cleaned out a lot of dust, but I sincerely doubt there was much dust in this laptop when I first got it, and the fan was running a lot from the very first week I got it--that tells me that the issue was the thermal compound, not the dust.
    Thoughts? Should people assume that the OEM thermal compound job was crummy?
    Toshiba Satellite L755D-S5218
    AMD A6-3400M Quad-Core CPU
    8 gigs RAM
    Windows 7
    Solved!
    Go to Solution.

    Not exactly.  It isn't just the paste type and application, but also how and where the system is used.  My work laptop usually doesn't make it a year before it needs to be reapplied.  It is used heavily, almost always running multiple programs at once, and is taken in and out of differing environments on a daily basis.  The computer was built for this abuse, but some preventive maintenance is needed to keep it running smoothly.
    I have had friends/neighbors, etc, bring me relatively new computers in the past(all different brands), with overheating issues, and sometimes it looks like the paste application is light, and other times it looks like it is just dried out.  Could be a bad batch of paste, or just heavy usage taking a toll on it.
    I look at thermal paste sort of like engine oil in your car.  To keep it running smoothly, change it out on a scheduled interval. 
    Qosmio X875 i7-3630QM, 32GB RAM, OCZ SSD Qosmio X505 i7-920XM, PM55, 16GB RAM, OCZ SSD
    Satellite Pro L350 T9900, GM45, 8GB RAM , Intel 320 SSD (my baby) Satellite L655 i7-620M, HM55, 8GB RAM, Intel 710 SSD (travel system)

  • Thermal Compound is there a diffrence?

    well? is there? i dont use it cuz i dont see a diffrence in heat. just whats on the HSF is what i use.
    is there a diffrence in a $0.99 tube and a $25.00 Tube with Silver in it?

    I've never been comfortable myself with their stock stickons...yes I've seen tests on the internet before about thermal compounds and saw distinctive results with the higher end pastes...I'd say 5 to 10C differences at times and for an overclocker that can mean a few more MHz out of their rig...
    All in all I've used many different types in my day and I've always preferred Arctic Silver products over any...good consistency, LASTING consistency and both are important to me...when I take my processor off it's nice to see that paste isn't dried out and cracking...I know that I'm getting the best cooling possible cause the contact is a good one...
    *shrugs* I dunno if you'll agree but that's my 2 cents heheheheh
    Bonz
    Afterthought: I usually buy my Arctic Silver for 9 to 14 dollars a tube...where you paying 25 bucks? You're getting robbed my friend!!

  • Thermal compound for G4 needed ?

    I have a Quicksilver G4 (DP 1GHz) which ran trouble free(except CD/DVD Drive) for many years. One fine day I got kernel trap and not co-operating since.
    When I press the power on button it lights up momentarily but no chime.
    It did work for few hours after few days
    I really like to revive it and I have done the following
    1. Reset the PMU switch on logic board.
    2. Replaced 3.7 Volt battery
    3. Reseated all the PCI cards (Video, SCSI card, Ultra SCSI etc)
    4. Checked the voltages on Power supply.
    5. Cleaned all the dust (lot of it) on the fans and inside the tower.
    Now I am planning to re-seat the processor card. For this I need to remove heat sink. I read in a website (http://www.jcsenterprises.com/Japamacs_Page/Blog/9AE7FE0E-0CF2-4A7C-8003-489B282 582BC.html) that *thermal compound* is a must.
    But then in this forum and Apple Service manual I don't see any thermal compound mentioned for Heatsink for Powermac G4.
    Now my concern is whether this is recommended step. I don't want to create new problems on top the existing ones.
    I call on the experts...:)

    Hi Japamac,
    Thanks a lot for your help
    I did put thermal compound and thought I had my G4 power mac back.
    But now I have a dead machine which powered up once or twice.
    I am guessing there is seating issue of CPU daughter board.
    I did press firmly on the place where CPU pin attach to logic board
    So my question instead of trying
    1. Removing heatsink
    2. Reseat CPU
    3. Clean heat sink and apply compound
    4. Put the heatsink
    5. Pray and turn on the Powermac hoping I get it right this time
    Can I just reseat CPU and then place the heatsink on Top and then turn on Power mac with out applying compound just for few minutes?
    If it works then I apply comound and then put on heatsink. Then that is it .
    Will the CPU go bad if I dont have compund on heatsink for few minutes..?
    Appreciate your help

  • How good is the stock thermal compound on the Rx9800?

    I can't overclock my card any higher than 410/370 w/o artifacting, yet when I touch the heatsink it is only mildly warm when I have a big fan on it.  This leads me to believe that the stock thermal compound b/w the heatesink and chip is crappy... perhaps it's "just" enough to cool stock speeds, but is **** in overclocking.
    Can someone give me some more info on this?

    Just like overclocking a CPU, some clock higher than others, you may have one of those cards that just won't overclock very well.
    The stock thermal compound is always going to be just fine, it's often the way it has been applied that's the problem.
    I always pull the heatsink off and take a look at how it was applied. I usually end up putting a little more on the RAM and make sure it is spread evenly.
    I try not to add to much, as excessive amounts can create heat buildup and slow dissipation.

  • Has anyone ever needed to replace thermal compound in a G5 PPC  CPU?

    I have a 1st generation iMac G5 (PPC) which becomes unresponsive after it gets warm, ie., spinning beach ball. I know the video processor uses thermal compound to couple to its heat sink but do not know if the CPU uses it? Does anyone have experience with that?

    Yes, a thin, very thin, coating of Arctic Silver should do the trick.

  • Which thermal compound for a G4:  Arctic Cooling MX-2, MX-3, or MX-4?

    Thermal compound was mentioned at the below link:
    [http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2613130&tstart=0]
    Linked from that page was another web page, where the MX-2 thermal compound made by Arctic Cooling was mentioned. The below web page on the Arctic Cooling website mentions MX-2, as well as newer thermal compounds, MX-3 and MX-4:
    [http://www.arctic-cooling.com/catalog/main.php?cPath=39]
    Does anyone know which would be most appropriate for a G4 "Sawtooth"? According to the product descriptions, MX-3 is an upgraded version of MX-2.

    Hi-
    I'm using MX-3 now in all my G4s.
    Previously, I used MX-2.
    MX-3 is easier to apply, and definitely is more than good enough for any application you may have.
    MX-3 outperforms AC Ceramique and requires no curing.
    Ceramique receives a "Good" grade, whereas MX-2 (and MX-3 performs better) receives an "Excellent" grade:
    http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=150&Itemid =62&limit=1&limitstart=11
    http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=150&Itemid =62&limit=1&limitstart=12

  • After applying thermal compound neither HD will boot.

    This is too strange..  I installed a thermaltake hardcano5 about 3-weeks ago, which all went smoothly.  Today I picked up some thermal compound (coolermaster premium t.c), which I applied to my heatsink as instructed, and then I layed the temp. sensor from the hardcano5 on the cpu (as instructed) and placed the heatsink on top.  I closed up the case, powered up and the grub bootloader menu came up as usual, I scrolled down to winxp, hit enter and then was greeted by a blank black screen which stayed until I rebooted.  I powered off and back up again and after choosing to boot xp again I was greeted by a blue screen which contained an apci error message, telling me to reboot.  Again I rebooted and everytime since I get the blank, black screen.   When booting linux the system locks after initializing the 2nd cdrom drive.  (Please note, winxp / linux are on completely seperate drives).  I am at a loss here, there were no changes made to the hardware, all that was done was positioning the heat sensor from the hardcano5 and applying the thermal compound.  I am at a loss here and I need to get a number of c++ source files off one of the hdd's for class tomorrow, so any suggestions would be most appriciated.  Thank you -
    NicZak

    If yo used silver grease, you may have shorted some of the bridges on the Athlon??  Too many people apply thermal compound as if they were buttering a sandwich.  The thermal grease only has to fill the minute cavities on the surface of heatsink and CPU.  therefore a microscopically thin layer will already do the job.  More grease in some cases is worse then none.

  • What thermal compound goes with socket a antlon xp?? HELP!!

    hey, i posted before, ive just sold me socket a processor, athlon xp 3000+, i desembled it so i can post it, just as some advice to the buyer when he re-assembles it, what compound should i recommend and how do you clean off the old stuff from the cpu and heatsink???
    thanks much appreciated

    YES USE COMPOUND
    Make sure to remove ALL the old compound from CPU and HS
    Clean the HS and CPU die surface thoroughly with alcohol just before installing compound on the processor.
    The thermal compound should be applied so thin, you can almost see the text on the die through the compound. Do not use any on the heatsink just the CPU. Some recommend putting compound on the heatsink, then completely wiping it off... I disagree; I prefer that surface to be virgin clean. The compound on the die will do the job. Remember, the less you use the better the heat will transfer. Spread it with a strait razor or a credit card edge.
    If you were to remove the heatsink after it has been installed properly, the text from the processor will leave an impression on the base of the heatsink where it came in contact. (of course it will appear reversed)
    You can use Arctic silver or other silver based thermal compounds however I have never had a problem with the Radio Shack thermal compound and you do not have to worry about that stuff shorting out your processor like the silver based compound can.
    Heat Sink lapping guide here if you like: http://www.a7vtroubleshooting.com/forum/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=a7v;action=display;num=989258239

  • Replace thermal compound?

    I have a GTX580 twin frozr II and I don't know if its normal that it reaches temps of 75ºC at 75hz limit in games like test drive unlimited 2 and 43ºC idle, so i was wondering if replacing the compound would make it cooler I don't like when it goes over 69ºC, and if anyone knows how to remove the heatsink so I dont damage anything.
    I have cooler master thermal compound that came with my hyper 212.

    Quote from: ZackZ on 13-September-12, 01:38:49
    I have a GTX580 twin frozr II and I don't know if its normal that it reaches temps of 75ºC at 75hz limit in games like test drive unlimited 2 and 43ºC idle, so i was wondering if replacing the compound would make it cooler I don't like when it goes over 69ºC, and if anyone knows how to remove the heatsink so I dont damage anything.
    I have cooler master thermal compound that came with my hyper 212.
    Those temps are 100% okay. The 580 is rated at 97C max, but temps under 90C are good.
    If you would like to change the TIM, its pretty easy to do... although I would recommend a better brand if you are going to go through the trouble of doing so.

  • Adding Thermal Compound to CPU - is this a good video?

    Tomorrow (when I get my CPU cooler I'll be applying artic thermal paste.  It's been a while since I've done it.  In this video 3 methods are mentioned. Any preferences?
    BTW I have an  i7-980X
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dCa7CZ_3sI&NR=1&feature=fvwp

    Rowby
    the second method is pretty good, if you bought the retail version of the 980x it comes with compound in a syringe. if you empty the contents this will show you how much paste to use.(do not use )
    also on your case you will need to remove the pci holder panel that is in the middle of the case. and when installing cpu cooler, take the motherboard tray out. and fit on flat service. Once wired up etc.fit the graphics card, raid card etc, don't screw down yet, make sure all the devices line up with the back of the case, if not you may need to push the back of the case and screw down all the devices one by one. because the case is aluminium they sometimes go out of line, because of weight on tray.
    good luck you are nearly there.
    Baz

  • STIII Force (TM) Thermal Compound First Impressions Exclusive! for nFo

    Ok here is a first picture of STIII (TM). This newest product of the popular series is the most advanced yet it is a Technology breakthrough. This is the First Liquid Termal compound. It has come through excesive lab testing (still final packaking and marketing of the product is to be done).
    features:
    Liquid never dries out evaporation at 500 C
    Excellent Thermal Properties, decrease you CPU Temperature up to 11 C
    Cool Color and Tropical fruits Odor. Color different than STI & II because its liquid form
    Can also be injected via drill hole to heat sink to increase heatsink performance up to 40%
    Due to this technique (see pic above) any low cost aluminum heatsink can be used with excellent results
    Cost effective solution no need for expensive and bulky HSF
    Will not work for Intel CPUs or VIA chipsets motherboards (see purchase agreement). Exclusive only for AMD CPUs and nForce MBs
    Fitted with nanorobots which actually identify CPU and chipset. CAUTION!! if applied in an intel cpu or other chipset than nForce STIII Force (TM) is turned into explosive liquid which detonates at 45 C!
    Order now!
    price at 29 US$ (incl VAT).
    Markoul Laboratories (c) Inc.

    Manolis,
    I give the regulars from the old nForce forum plenty of lattitude, I just ask thet you keep the O.T. and the like posts to a minimum.  MSI saw the need for people to have fun and post whatever they want and dedicated a forum to it.
    Do not abuse the forum.  I need to keep it running on topic 99.9% of the time.
    Richard

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