Color Correction + DVD/MPEG Compression Produced Noise

I recently color corrected a 3-hour rock concert using FCP and a broadcast monitor. When played from the timeline the concert looks great however after outputting, MPEG compression and authoring a DVD there's video noise over the image. Almost snow like but different. I'd post a screengrab but I can't seem to take one in DVD Player. Any advice?

That's exactly right Jonathan, you need to add the 2:3 pulldown, and I can tell you all why. (I read the post from Max Average, but I'm not commenting that separately)
The DVD specification simply does not support video marked as 23.98 fps (which is how Apple wants to call it) or even 23.976 fps (which is what MPEG-2 calls it). This means that for NTSC DVDs you can only use MPEG-2 video files which are marked as 29.97 fps. This is true whether your encoder (like Compressor) is letting you be aware of it or not. There is no "native 23.98 frame rate" on a DVD and the right way of making the decoder believe it is 29.97 instead, is to use 2:3 pulldown. Any other method would just be wasting bandwidth/bitrate or picture quality, depending on which way you want to look at it.
The 2:3 pulldown process, as specified by MPEG-2, is a way for the encoder of describing to the decoder which of its already decoded fields it should be repeating (displaying once more) and when. These field repetitions are designed to increase the interlaced displayed frame rate from 23.976 to 29.97. This "new" frame rate must be explicitely written into the .m2v stream, to be accepted by a DVD authoring tool, e.g., DVD SP.
I am sure many of you may wonder why it is called "pulldown" when in fact the frame rate seems to be going "up" from 24 to 30, as I did myself back in the nineties;-)
The way to wrap ones head around that, is to think about what whould happen if you just mapped 24 FPS film frames onto the NTSC TV standard which has to display frames at nearly 30 fps on a TV. Of course the movie would run 25% FASTER on a TV than it did at the cinema/picture theatre. In that perspective, the solution had to be to SLOW DOWN (pulldown) the presentation speed on a TV. The engineers of that time (this was long before color TV was even invented)
were faced with a need for film (Hollywood movies) to be translated for TV broadcasts). Of course they could not change the 30 fps used for TV broadcasts (29.97 fps came much later when colors were added;-), so they had to come up with a scheme which made each film frame seem to last 25% longer on the TV screen, than it would have otherwise. "Pulling down" the display frequency from, the physical 30 fps to match the experienced 24 fps was accomplished by letting every other frame be displayed for 50% longer on the TV. On average that is of course 25% longer (slower) which was the goal.
I may be monitoring this thread for further comments.
BTW, BitVice 1.7 runs surprisingly well under Rosetta.
Roger Andersson / Innobits AB, Makers of BitVice MPEG-2 Encoder for Mac
http://www.innobits.com/
As per Apple Discussions Terms of Service:
"I may receive some form of compensation, financial or otherwise, from my recommendation or link."

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Best way to go from Final Cut to DVD preserving Color Corrections

What is the best way to take my video project from Final Cut and burn it on a DVD (using DVD Studio), I need to preserve the color corrections I have made (used an external video monitor)? Also my camera shoots at black level IRE 0 and I have edited it that way, but as we all know NTSC TVs use IRE 7.5 is there anyway DVD Studio or FCP can convert the IRE so it matches?

from FC; export to compressor
In compressor, choose appropriate preset (i.e. best quality, >90 minutes, 16x9)
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take the 2 files (video and audio) into dvd studio to encode.
Not sure about your IRE 7.5 question, I always assumed it was automatically converted but now you have me thinking...

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I have a 13" SD TV hooked up to my mac working as a color correction monitor for FCE.
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Thanks so much

Hi
I would take some photos with color miss match eg blue tint (Blå-Stick in Swedish)
and with other known color anomalities.
Put them in TimeLine and playback. View TV - corrected or as bad as from start.
I use a color corrected CRT-broad-cast monitor but prior to this a small TV and
this one did a good job.
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I tried authoring via creating DVD files in FCPX and then burning with Toast, as well as creating a MOV file and authoring with iDVD from an older machine. Results were the same. The HDTV I viewed the disk from are the same TV that I view my videos via AppleTV before posting to youtube. I did have a Broadcast Safe filter on the video. Good thought though.
It does make since that a DVD played from a DVD player has more restrictions then a file played via a computer or AppleTV or Youtube, but I just found it kind of an head scratcher and not sure that is the problem. I'll try playing the DVD on a different setup and see it the results are the same. Could be my DVD player.
The results were so differnet, that I just had to ask to see if there was something I was majorly missing.
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Color correction doesnt come through well on DVD project on TV

I burned my short film onto a DVD and played it back on a SD television. The film has many color grading tweaks and I noticed that they barely come through on the TV. Definitely not representative of what i have ont he timeline. Any clue as to why this is?

cfg_2451 wrote:
VidNoob wrote:
I burned my short film onto a DVD and played it back on a SD television. The film has many color grading tweaks and I noticed that they barely come through on the TV. Definitely not representative of what i have ont he timeline. Any clue as to why this is?
Does your monitor show you the Rec.709 colorspace? And is it fully calibrated?
If not, you're not getting WYSIWYG, so there's no way you can know what the output is going to look like without burning a DVD and playing it. Then you can iterate, making changes in PPro and burning more DVDs, until you get what you want.
Very few computer monitors can show you Rec.709. To get that, you need either a production monitor, or a fully calibrated HDTV (look for one that's easy to calibrate (supports ISFccc Calibration Mode). If you use a TV, you need to make sure you're getting the proper signal to it also, but PPro using the NVIDIA graphics boards can do this without extra hardware (driving the HDMI port). If you set the driver up correctly.
But if you don't have a production monitor, or a calibrated HDTV, you're really just shooting in the dark when it comes to color correction and especially color grading. Not what you want to hear I know. But that's the current state of the art.
I'm pretty certain it doesnt show the rec.709 colorspace. My monitor isnt even widescreen. I actually had no idea about the rec.709 space until just now when you mentioned it. I am a vidnoob hence the screen name
I have a geforce 560TI card. Do you know if I can buy a cable that goes from the card to maybe an S video adapter I can plug into the TV to then color correct my project on the TV when doing things intended for TV playback? There's a DVI port on the back of my graphics card and my TV has an S video female port.

Color Correct before or after compressing to Pro Res?

Hi,
I have about 53:00 of footage that is 90% xdcam hd 422 footage (1080i60, 1920/1080, 29.97fps). Unfortunately, some of the material was shot 23.98. After researching it, I converted those to Pro Res 422 29.97.
I need to deliver the project in either XDCam 422 HD or Pro Res. Since I had the 23.98 issue I'm going to convert everything to Pro Res.
I will need to deliver the entire media managed project. So I'm going to compress to Pro Res then.
My question is, should I color correct before or after? I'm still waiting to get final approvals so I'd love to start color correcting now, but I hate to waste time if it's not going to be accurate later. Nothing is broadcast safe and the chroma need to be pumped up in the interviews and taken down in other places.
My deadline is next friday, so it has to be at FedEx on Thursday.
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Does anyone have an opinion?

Why is my rendered color corrected movie pixelated with jagged edges after rendering?

Hello All,
I am new short film movie producer and have just started using Adobe Premiere CS6 and Audition CS6. Comparing my flat footage before adding it to a sequence and color correcting it and rendering it, it looks fair. But after all these transitions it now looks pixelated along with very jagged edges. This is my first short film for my first client and I am at my witts ends! I have tried to copy the sequence and transfer it to a new sequence with differnt settings comparing the pixel aspect ration, fps, trying to match the clips specs and I am so stuck. Can anyone please offer any suggestions or let me know if there are procedures I have overlooked. Thanks Adobe Community.
Michael Diaz

Let's back up a step - what camera do you use? If it's an HDV model, then yes you have anamorphic footage. Simply choose an HDV sequence preset to match. If your camera shoots 720p or full 1920x1080, those are square pixel (1.0) formats and are not anamorphic (anamorphic does NOT mean widescreen, it means "stretched to widescreen" basically).
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If you copied and pasted the contents of the SD sequence into an HD sequence, all filters and effects you had applied before should remain intact and not need reworking, except possible for titles and things involving scaling (since the size has changed).
As for exporting, you typically will NOT want an anamorphic export, except for widescreen DVD. You will not see anamorphic mentioned though, just choose "MPEG-2 DVD" and an appropriate widescreen preset and Adobe knows what to do from there. For web/computer viewing, best to avoid anamorphic footage, since many players assume 1.0 PAR and do not adjust the image for non-square pixels. So if working with 1440x1080 footage, and exporting to web or YouTube for instance, export as 1920x1080 (1.0) or 1280x720 (720p) so the viewer sees the proper 16:9 output, or the image may be squished otherwise!
Thanks
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Color correction lost in m2v

I did some color corrections in FCP6.
I exported in many different formats and tested each with DVDSP:
When DVDSP compresses to m2v, the color corrections are lost.
But when I use iDVD, color corrections are intact and okay!
Any ideas why is this happening?

How are you looking at the DVDs and how are you doing the color corrections? If you are doing these on the computer monitor (color corrections and viewing) it is not going to be accurate. You should color correct to a monitor.
[Here is a article on black levels|http://www.signvideo.com/dv-black-levels-dvd-authoring-mpeg-2-part-1.htm ]
iDVD, I believe, uses a brighter default Gamma than Compressor, so tweaking the Gamma in Compressor could be an option also. Again it depends what "Carrying out color corrections" means - washed out, etc.

HD source encoding into SD DVD MPEG-2 format desaturates film

I am encoding a 720P HD source from FCP, the source is the Prores (HQ) format. I encode to MPEG-2 in Compressor. When I view the Standard def DVD the colors are really desaturated. There is no way to increase saturation in Compressor from what I can see. Any suggestions?
Message was edited by: Miklos

This is almost certainly a gamma issue. This isn't specific to your HD source.
Very commonly this is an issue with monitor calibration and Final Cut Pro's "special" handling of gamma. Here is a really, really brief summary of what's going on.
So you have all of this video that was recorded with a Gamma of 2.2. Final Cut Pro opens this video, silently converts it to Gamma 1.8 for display purposes, and shows it to you. Why? Because Macintosh has had a default display Gamma of 1.8 since the Reagan administration or so. The original data doesn't change, but Final Cut magically adjusts the video it actually displays to Gamma 1.8, so it looks about right on your default-setting, default-brightness, default-everything Mac monitor.
But wait! You've got a monitor that is calibrated at a Gamma setting other than 1.8. You've either calibrated it yourself, or you've loaded a color profile (in System Preferences->Display) that isn't a Gamma 1.8 profile. Final Cut Pro is spitting out Gamma 1.8 video, but you're not seeing it. You're seeing something completely different.
But this is a Mac! We've got ColorSync! This shouldn't happen! Bzzt. Final Cut bypasses ColorSync when making this decision. See this url:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=93794-fr
Note this very, very, very important quote:
Tip: While it is possible to recalibrate Apple displays via the Display Calibrator Assistant in Displays preferences, users should leave the gamma of their monitors to the 1.8 Standard Gamma setting when working in Final Cut Pro. ColorSync settings are not used by either Shake or Final Cut Pro for automatic color calibration or compensation of any kind.
I have an entire rant about this that we will save for another time.
So you're looking at what is for all intents and purposes, the "wrong" color. you go on and color correct your footage, or otherwise alter it, all the while making it look good on your monitor. Unfortunately, all of the changes you're making are being done so that the video you are SEEING looks good, but you're not seeing the ACTUAL video, you're seeing an "incorrectly" gamma-adjusted video. The minute that video leaves the Final Cut world on your system, and is displayed on a monitor with a "correct" Gamma of 2.2, you're going to see the "correct" video, which is going to look either too light or too dark, depending on your current display profile when you modified the video.
But you have no way of knowing this. So you use Compressor to make an MPEG-2 file, and Compressor dutifully takes the actual video data (the data that you're not seeing) and makes the MPEG file. You burn the DVD.
You put the DVD into your DVD player, and everything is either washed out or too dark.
So how do you resolve the issue?
1. You must have a trusted video path out to trusted scopes out to a trusted, calibrated display device. Most obviously, this means SDI or HD-SDI out to a calibrated monitor. There are plenty of other options, but this is the standard.
2. Trust the broadcast monitor, trust the scopes, and completely forget what you see in Final Cut Pro. It doesn't exist. It's imaginary. If Final Cut shows you a totally black image but you can see rainbows in the broadcast monitor, you're going to get rainbows when you go out to DVD.
3. If you can't afford or don't have access to a monitor intended for grading, and you just need to do -something-, use a Spyder3 or other device to calibrate your computer's monitor with a target Gamma of 1.8. Your color space is still not going to match Rec 709 or 601 or so on, but you'll be in a ballpark that you can probably get away with for web video, personal/family stuff, etc. Never, ever do this for anything going out to broadcast television or any actual critical evaluation situation, but this will suffice for producing simple web content.
If you're making DVDs that are actually going to be on the market or outside of your friends and family, you -really- need to have a calibrated monitor that is capable of displaying the native color space of the output you desire.
On a more technical level, there is also a standing concern that there is a color space/matrix issue occuring when ProRes is decoded during the act of Compressor reading in the video data from Quicktime. We've seen evidence of this here, but we're still investigating.
In any event, it's late, and that's the very, very short and condensed version of my "What's broken about Gamma handling in Final Cut Studio" rant.
-Matt

Color correction challenge, PP5.5 Mac, ProRes to WMV

I'm eager to complete my transition from FC Studio to Production Premium CS5.5, but I'm challenged to ensure consistent color in my ProRes to WMV workflow. Any advice would be appreciated.
My shooting gear: EX1R, w and w/o Nanoflash
Editing gear: 2008 MacPro (3.1), OSX 10.6.7, 10 GB RAM, ATI Raedon 4870
Workflow (FCP): Acquire footage, edit native (XD CAM EX/XDCAM HD22), render sequence to ProRes 422, transcode via Quicktime 7 Pro/Flip for Mac to produce WMV files for my PC clients.
Workflow CS5.5 (intended:) Acquire footage, edit native (XDCAM HD 422 via Nanoflash), output sequence to ProRes, transcode to WMV via Quicktime 7 Pro/Flip for Mac HD. After I put a "trial" sequence together in PP5.5, I adjust footage with 3-way color corrector. Here's where the fun starts:
Process: I attempt to create a "master file" from the sequence, using AME with output set for Pro Res. The next intended step would be to open the file in Quicktime Pro 7, then encode via Flip for Mac to produce a smaller WMV file for my clients.
Outcome (1) The results look as though color correction was bypassed completely. After much trial and error, I discovered that when I encoded using ProRes 4444, color corrections were preserved. Yet when I transcoded from 4444 to wmv, (2) the resulting files appeared to have no color correction. No good.
I'm stumped! I thought I was on to something when I noticed the "preset" for outputting XDCAM HD422 was not set for "progressive," but it appears to make no difference.
Sidebar: I experience the same issue regardless of use of XDCAM EX or XDCAM HD422 files. With the latter, I've edited clips in MOV and MXF format. Same outcome.
Until I get this workflow issue sorted out, I'm stalled in completing my transition to PP. I'd like to have acquired gobs more RAM and an Nvidia Quadro 4800 card already, but I need to know that I've fixed this issue first.
Any suggestions most welcome.
Sincerely,
Tom
Raleigh, NC

I finally figured it out! If there are any other FCP to PP traitors out there like me in Mac land, here's a workflow that results in WMVs matching the color corrections created in your PP sequence:
1) Edit native. In my case, I'm working with "XDCAM HD 422," the result of linking a Nanoflash set for 100 mbps/long gop to my EX1R. Both FCP and PP "read" them as 50 mbps files.
2) Export media to AME, checking the box, "Match Sequence Settings." With little delay, this produces a file with an mpeg extension (the mpeg-2 codec). In Quicktime player, this yields silent footage with no audio. Bummer. End of story, I thought.
3) But this time, I brought that same "black" file into Apple Compressor. Using the Flip For Mac plug in, I exported to one of my "regular" settings, 2-pass, VBR, 640x360. The result: a perfect color match with my color corrected PP sequence.
I'm sure there are alternatives to bringing a file that won't play in Quicktime into Compressor. I'll try Quicktime Pro and Streamclip next. But the point -- I think -- is to not bother with any more intermediate formats/files than one has to.
Sighs of relief here.
Tom

Color correction technique

After editing my project and publishing to a DVD , I've been a liitle disappointed in the color saturation of my final project when viewed on my TV. The video just appears a little flat.
Can someone guide me through a good color correction process that might help with this.
What role do the color bars play in calibration ?
Just as an FYI I don't have a broadcast monitor..I guess I could use a TV ?

It is possible that there could be nothing wrong with your FCE produced DVD.
Could it be that the colour settings on your TV are poor compared with your computer monitor?
Have you tried the DVD on other (possibly better) TVs?
How does your DVD compare with the normal TV programmes? It should be of a similar quality. If it is not then maybe there is some fault in your technique, either in the filming or post production stage etc.
Ian.
PS. Have you tried boosting the Contrast and Saturation on your TV?

Color Correction Novice rounding home stretch w/ a Q

Hi,
So far, I've received some valuable advice & tips for my 1st attempts at color correction, esp since my production falls outside the normal applications. The help has been great!
I went thru my production and did scene by scene corrections, which lost most of its intimidation with enough practice. I still havent tackled the Keyframe approach to having corrections shift during the course of a scene - I'm hoping to escape without having to do that.
Heres my question -
I did all the corrections, with a calibrated external monitor, and then had the program render all the video effects. Then I chose "print to video". When the program ran, the colors were a little different overall than what I had set in the program (less orange, more pink) and in a few scenes (orig underexposed, but corrected in the process), the color shifted more radically, esp in the shadow / black values which fell greenish.
I didnt see any of this as I was correcting, and the signal path was the same when I printed to dvd, same monitor w/ no calibration changes.
Is this normal? Maybe these shifts happen more discreetly in reg productions, mine is a live stage shoot with a lot of red light.
Thanks for all the help, & Happy New Year
Duane
G5 tower Mac OS X (10.4.2)

Hi,
Thanks for all the info, I'm starting to look at ways of sending what I have to people who need to see it. The project will likely still require some tweaking so this isnt a final mastering step by any means. Just looking for something that looks as good as what I see on the monitor after rendering.
Its looking like (from the lasts posts) that 'out thru firewire -> dvd recorder' isnt the best choice & if I can keep it in the computer & flow it directly to its burner, the opportunities for problems can be minimalized.
I tried exporting to quicktime, that resulted in an FCP Quicktime file that took 3 hrs to create & was almost 13 gig. (program is 50 min) so it looked great but was too huge to put onto a disk.
If anyone has guidance in this area, I'd appreciate it. I'm gonna poke around in those options & then likely post a further question seperately on this subject. I want to get it onto a dv disc via toast 6 (I see Quicktime w/ Compression is an option so I'm gonna explore that)
Thank you all again for the correction help, in that 13 gig version, it looked really great (no green in shadow artifacts ! )
Regards,
Duane
G5 tower Mac OS X (10.4.2)
G5 tower Mac OS X (10.4.2)
G5 tower Mac OS X (10.4.2)

Color correction/effects when working with long clips

Hi,
First time poster!
I'm a beginner with Adobe Premiere Pro 5.5. I'm using it right now to do some color correction on badly produced DVD's in my film collection! I was wondering if it is possible when doing color correction effects on a clip if you can apply different effects to different parts of a clip. For example - At the beginning of a clip, the scene is really bright, but, some 30 minutes later, the clip is really dark. Is it possible to darken the beginning and lighten the ending? How would you folks deal with a situation like this? Would you edit the film down to smaller parts? If so, how would you go about that?
Thanks for the help!
Howard

Howard,
Welcome to the forum.
Along with Jon-M-Spear's suggestion (the one that I use most often too), many Effects can be Keyframed, so that they change over time. However, this does take some time, and can involve a lot of fiddling.
If you have a long Clip, and know that you will be adding the same set of Effects, but just with different attributes, you can do one of two things, and both rely on Jon-M's method:
You can create an Effect Preset, and apply that to all of your Cut, let's call them "sub-Clips," even though that term has other meanings, so be careful when using it. Then apply that Preset to all of those sub-Clips. Then, tweak each application of the Preset, as is needed for the individual sub-Clip.
In a similar fashion, you can apply all necessary Effects to the first of your sub-Clips, tweak for it, as is necessary, then Rt-Click on it, chosing Copy. Now, Select all of the rest of the sub-Clips, to which you wish to apply that set of Effects, Rt-Click on them, choosing Paste Attributes, and then tweak, as needed.
A variation on the above would be to apply the Effects to the origianal Clip, and THEN make the Cuts. Go back and tweak each individual sub-Clip.
Good luck,
Hunt

Video looks lousy after color correction or cropping

I'm a Sony Vegas user new to FCP. Today I imported some filed from a Sony EX1 XDCAM. I transcoded to proRES422 and all looked fine in the timeline. But, I tried to colorcorrect and once I rendered the image had noticeable deterioration in sharpness and also it introduced some weird purplish noise in the darker areas. I had the same problem when I attempted a simple zoom and crop in motion for a proRES file. What's going on here?
I'm just using a Macbook with an integrated card but I was under the impression FCP is powered by the CPU. I've got 2 gigs of Ram. Speed and smooth playing video isn't a problem.
What could be going on here?

Stab in the dark:
What are your "Playback Video" settings set to under the "RT" pop-up menu in the upper left corner of the Sequence window?
Also, what color appears above the clip in the Sequence?
What does the clip look like if your render it?
XDCAM footage should color correct well, whether it's the native data stream or converted to another codec that's good for editing.
It might not hold up to being scaled, regardless of how it's currently compressed. The picture is farily compressed as soon as it's recorded as XDCAM. Converting to something like ProRes, or Animation at best, or Photo-JPEG at best, only minimizes a compression generation loss when re-compressing later transitions, superimpositions, exporting and so forth.
-Warren

My HD TV as NTSC Monitor for secondary color correction

Can I use my new Panasonic HD TV model TH-42PX80U as a NTSC monitor for secondary color correction using both Final Cut Pro out of a Macbook Pro intel? What cable I can use to conect via HDMI? Will the color acuracy will be similar to that of a NTSC color correction monitor? will my TV do a decent job for NTSC? THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP!
I am not sure I have this HDMI cable to be use in my macbook pro does it comes with it?

Can I use my new Panasonic HD TV model TH-42PX80U as a NTSC monitor for secondary color correction using both Final Cut Pro out of a Macbook Pro intel?
Yes, but I would only trust it if you are going to be making DVDs, and ONLY if you properly set it up. I would not rely on it for broadcast color correction. The reason broadcast monitors exist is to have a standard...HDTVs don't have a standard. Go to best buy and look at all of them....none of them match. BUT, as a nice simple solution for DVD, I'd use it.
But the only way you are going to get a signal to it is with the Matrox MXO. It will do component to the monitor, or you can get a DVI to HDMI adapter...if you do that the MXO software will allow you to set the monitor up to color bars. That option is only available from of the DVI out of the box.
Will the color acuracy will be similar to that of a NTSC color correction monitor?
No...it would be similar to color correcting NTSC on your home television...because that it what it is.
will my TV do a decent job for NTSC?
I doubt it. Taking an SD image and blowing it up huge on this HD TV...scaled up. I wouldn't think so. I wouldn't use it for SD color correction.
I am not sure I have this HDMI cable to be use in my macbook pro does it comes with it?
You have a DVI port on your MacBook Pro. And they make DVI to HDMI cable adapters I'm sure.
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/ross_shane/MXO.php
Shane

Color Correction + DVD/MPEG Compression Produced Noise

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