Film Workflow w/ FCP & Cinema Tools

I am cutting a feature shot on film for the first time and have a workflow question. Apologies if this post has been done to death and feel free to send a link to another post or site.
The film is being shot in 2 perf 35mm. It is going to the post house to be transferred to HDSR for effects. We are being given DVCAM tapes with burnt in timecode at 29.97 for offline editing. We will then give them an EDL at the end for online.
So what's next?
If I capture the DVCam tapes at 29.97, I then have to conform in CinemaTools right? This is where I'm unsure, as I am not familiar with the program.
Any info on the steps would be VERY much appreciated. Cheers in advance!

BTW - That "read the cinema tools" response was both unhelpful and trite.
Your question deals with workflow, however, something confuses me.
If the feature was shot on 35mm, Telecine to HD-CAM SR and then downconverted to SD DV-CAM, I really doubt it is 29.97 w/ burned timecode.
Usually people shoot 24 when shooting film.
If that is the case then:
1) Your HD-CAM SR is 23.98
2) Your DVCAM is 29.97 with 23.98 Timecode burn in.
If you need to deliver an EDL for offline then your EDL will be worthless if your cutting in 29.97. The timecodes won't match.
So, the easiest thing (if an option) is to get the HD-CAM SR and get a Pro-Res file of that at 23.98. That could be converted down to whatever format you need for editing and wouldn't require removing pulldown. It will also give you a perfect EDL because it was taken from the master.
The second way, is to go the route you already have in mind.
1) Capture DVCAM at 29.97 and
2) remove 3:2 pulldown before you start editing.
There are many pitfalls with this method but atleast you have the burn-in to use as reference if you stray off course (meaning, you remove pulldown incorrectly).
Here are some methods:
A) track down After Effects. It has a function called Inerpret Footage. This will guess your pulldown and create new native media. This is my preferred method.
B) Use Cinema Tools. You should export a small segment of your footage and test removing the pulldown. Most don't get it right without determining the I-Frame.
C) Use Compressor's frame controls to remove your pulldown. This method (in my mind) is the sloppies of the bunch. It provides errors around cadence breaks... some people will disagree.
Either way, you'll need to treat that DVCAM footage before you start editing. Otherwise, you'll have to hand write your EDL if you cut in NTSC (29.97).
Hope this helps.

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24 fps Film Workflow in FCP

Hello all,
I'm planning out a film workflow for a feature-length motion picture I plan to edit with my Final Cut Pro setup.
The equipment is as follow:
Mac Pro Quad 2.66 GHz
5 GBs RAM
6 TB Cal Digit RAID
Kona LHe capture card
The stock will originate on 35mm and there is a chance that this will go back to film to have the negative reconformed (pending purchase by a studio and/or distributor). However, the initial plan is to master to HDCAM SR and do a Digital Intermediate.
Ideally, I'd like to stay in 24p (23.98) for offline.
One plan for offline includes getting all dailies transferred via telecine at one-light to DVCAM, then digitize and doing the reverse telecine in Cinema Tools, then correcting for the timecode variance, then doing offline in SD in a 23.98 project.
Would it time-saving (I know not cost-effective) to get all the dailies telecined at one-light to DVCPRO HD tapes at 24p, then digitizing into the system at 24p, and eliminating the whole "reverse telecine" process.
Is this the only way to ensure that offline and online media originates on 24p and stays that way? I want to stay away from conversion as much as possible.
Thanks in advance!
Mac Pro Quad 2.66 GHz / 5.0 Gigs RAM / GeForce 7300 GT / 2.0 TBs internal SATA

Of course Keycodes...I planned on this from the beginning. However, for your recommended method, I don't see why we'd have to have our 1-light transfers to HDCAM SR 4:4:4...wouldn't it make more sense to transfer directly to DVCPRO HD tapes, dig them into the FCP station (we'll rent a deck and tri-sync) and cut, then pull our selects from keycodes for an HDCAM SR 4:4:4 master for the final format.
Ok, you really don't need to transfer as 1-Light, have the colorist make a full color correction. The only reason why I mentioned 1-Light was for reducing the time in the transfer suite. You still be have to do Tape-to-Tape Color Correction and they can do some pretty amazing stuff that you won't be able to do in the dailies and vice-versa (Go with a DaVinci System or EQ or Pablo).
The only reason why I don't recomend the whole transfer to DVCPro and the re-transfer to HDCam SR is because you can get the DVCPro quality from the 4:4:4 Master (Just digitize straight from the HDCam SR master with a DVCPro codec). You save the 2nd Re-Transfer time, the Dubs to DVCPro, the DVCPro Tapes and you same TIME. Remeber that they still have to re-clean the film, spend time loading to the telecine, and problems that are going to arise due to a re-transfer like possible scratches, lab dirt, chemical spots, film tears, etc. And these DO happen).
*Also, if you're also editing your way, and matching back to you keykode for selects, you won't be able to do it in Final Cut. I checked today and this option is only available for Avids. *
Since it's a 1-light transfer, is it really taking advantage of the HDCAM SR's 4:4:4 color space bandwidth? Why not go directly to DVCPRO HD if it's only going to be 1-light...
Again, don't do a one light. If you can afford it have the colorist do their best. Yes, if you are going 4:4:4 might as well go all the way. Regarding the DVCPro, see above.
I'm not sure our budget will allow for an HDCAM SR 4:4:4 transfer of our dailies. Is there typically a price difference between transfering on different HD tapes formats? HDCAM SR seems like it'd be more expensive than DVCPRO HD. If there is no price difference than I can see your point...but how good would it look at only 1-light (albeit w/ video color-correction).
HDCam SR 4:4:4 is expensive. Next best thing would be HDCam SR 4:2:2, followed by HDCam and finally DVCPro HD. Lately, DVCPro and HDCam are going about the same rate for transfers. If you have a good Post Supervisor he/she can probably sweet talk the post house for a HDCam SR deal. DVCPro HD has a compression of about 15:1, HDCam is 7:1, HDcam SR is 3:1 and SR 4:4:4 is 1:1. (It varies from source to source, these are only approximates) If you're doing a Film-Out, the higher quality, the better the Film-Out.
Oh, and one more thing... a friend of mine, after choosing his selects from the final format of his feature, had the HDCAM select reel made with a 3-light transfer, BUT, also had a downconvert made with Keycode and Timecode burn-in to help with the reconform...if the keycode stuff failed to match...it seems to help him a lot. Any merit to this method?
This is how you re-conform your offline. The whole DVCam dub thing is a given, is part of the method. You have DVcam dubs made (with keykode and timecode burns), you digitize this new material with its respective list and then you match the keykode from the dailies, to the keykode from the selects and bring in your new timecode from the new "selects" masters so that your sequence/EDL (and therefore online) will have matching timecode (the timecode from the original dailies will be useless). (*This system is only available on AVID as far as I know*). Again, this is where keeping track of keykode is super important and you will encounter problems.
In my humble opinion, most of this stuff is for the Post Supervisor to figure out with the Editor and the Post-House. I have talked to post supers that have gone this method and you would not believe how confident they were the 1st week and totally lost it after the 4th week. I have seen shows that have gone through 4 or 5 assistant editors and had to hire a 2nd editor to help with the problems that came up. I have worked on this kind of shows many times and that's why I HIGHLY discourage it.
If you (or someone else) wants to know more, feel free to contact me and I can go into details and help you figure out a workflow that will save you TIME and a lot of headaches and a tiny bit of money. My email is in my profile and feel free to contact me, I won't bite! At first...

Cinema Tools crashing

When I try to create cut lists from FCP, Cinema Tools crashes. Two users posted a similar problem last year, which was never resolved.
FCP 5.1.4
CT 3.1
Any advice?

Unless there is something corrupt in your install of FCP and CT, I would suspect there is a clip or two in your timeline that CT does not like. Do you have any nested items, or unorthodox effects (or maybe even a speed effect) applied to clips? Try a test with a single item in a timeline and see if the crashing persists. If this works successfully, then you need to work through your timeline and find the offending clip(s) that are causing the problems. Good luck!
-Matt

Film list in Cinema Tools from 25 telecine, edited in a DV PAL-24 sequence

Hello professionals out there in the binary world,
I am looking for 24/25/24 answer to my problem and going thru all the questions like mine with no answer is just depressing !!!
Here is the problem:
We are editing on Final Cut Pro 4 with Cinematools 2.1
16mm shot at 24 FPS with a TC at 25fps to edit at 24fps in FCP 4
Sound recorded at 24FPS (Cantar)imported thru sebskytools...
We edited in a sequence DV PAL-24
(24@25 not available on FCP4)
Sound SEEMS ok as I need everything at 24FPS (quicktime movie, omf and edl)
For the image, I need a cut list for the negative cutter, when I want to make it in FCP4, in the settings, it doesn't allow me to change the TC rate to 25, it's greyed out, I have no choice else than 24...EVEN if I logged the database saying it was a 25fps TC.
In the database it's ok but it's not available in the FCP film list settings.
First weird thing..WHY ???
When the list is done, it says at the beginning and for all the clips used in the edit: "warning, the clip x does not have a telecine speed of 24FPS".... But the keycodes seems ok (same as my timeline)
SECOND PROBLEM:
I also need to tape the movie on beta for that negative cutter and it should be at 25FPS, like the TC otherwise the time won't correspond...HOW ??? Is it possible ?
Thanks for any information you could give me to clear it up a little bet !
All that 24/25 is a little cloudy in my mind, I would be thrilled if someone could blow those clouds away !
Marie
Final Cut Pro 4 / Cinema Tools 2.1 Mac OS X (10.3.1)

Hi Marie
Cloudy.....its a pea souper. Below is a cut and paste of some of the answers I have given in other threads. Also, I would get FCP5 studio as it is much better at all this.
Hi
This is the one area where avid beats FCP. 24fps Pal. I have now used FCP on a couple of PAL features and it is a bit of a pain. I also have the Apple pro support but most of this is all new to them.
Lets start with picture. As you know, you can either make tape/dvds that are the correct running length of the film and include a repeat frame or you can make them playing 4% fast with a pitch change but smooth pictures (1 frame film = 1 frame video). Most of the time, ie. when you are editing you will use the first method and live with the repeat frame. However, for VFX work and the NEG CUT or DI you will need to make 25 frame playouts.
The avid does this well but FCP is a pain.
One work around for the fast output is to export a QT of the cut and use cinema tools to conform it to 25fps. Some neg cutters or Digital labs will work to a QT, if they don't, then the 25fps QT can be imported into a new 25fps pal project so you can make a tape for the neg cutter which has the correct time code and you will have machine control. (Hint, I burn in 25fps TC when I make the QT). The edl will depend on your choice of film key number cut lists or a video edl. Key code lists work well but most neg cutters/labs dont like them. If you need an EDL then it should be made in the main 24@25 project but you need to set the edit code to 25fps before you make the edl. This is changed in the browser by going to TC RATE where it is set to 24@25 speed and right clicking. this gives you the option of changing the edit to 25 or 24 as well as 24@25. Most of the time while I cut, I have the edit set to 24fps not 24@25. Then I can see how long the show is running, how long a clip is etc.
Sound. Most people in the UK get rushes synched at the lab/tk house. They speed up the sound to match the speeded up picture. That blows the idea of an omf unless you are ok with the sound going through an analogue transfer which includes a speed change. If not, you will have to reconform from the original dats.
You must get flex files which will track the original location dat tapes and their time codes. These are used to in Cinema tools to make the batch capture list. When you want to make an edl at the end you will use EXPORT...CINEMA TOOLS AUDIO EDL.
Your audio post house may require a video tape with each reel having time code starting on the hour. That is very tricky and I tend to go back to my avid for that. You can do it by doing a crash record with the added frame and loading that back into a 25fps project. Then making tapes from there as you will now have machine control. Not pretty and quite time consuming. If they will work from QT files its easier.
I think you may have imported the audio which I haven't done in FCP yet. I will try BWAV import one day as they work well on the avid but have been told they don't work well on FCP. If they are working well for you then the omf route should be great. Let me know how you get on with audio.
I have managed to get through PAL features shot at 24 with FCP, but it sure is more work than on an avid, mostly for the assistant editors. However, I like cutting on FCP.
Best

Cinema tools workflow

can't seem to get the cinema tools manual to open on the apple site. Does anyone have any other suggestions for information on good cinema toos-finalcut workflow literature?
thanks

The cut frame (for negative cutting) will be correct for 23.98 or 24. The advantage of 24 is if you sync sound in Final Cut, you can bring sound it at it's captured rate.
If you edit at 23.98, you retain the slow down imposed in film to video transfer (telecine) and thus need to slow down your sound by the same amount (1/10th of 1 percent, or .1%) to sync.
Where there can be some adjustment of cut frames for negative cutting is if you edit at 29.97. This is because the cut frame could potentially contain information from 2 different film source frames.

FCP Can't Find Cinema Tools

I saw a similar question to this but it did not answer my question.
I'm trying to open up Cinema Tools in FCP 7, but FCP can't locate it. I searched for Cinema tools and I see these, which makes me think it has to be on here, but i Can't find it.
I dont want to risk an uninstall if I dont have the CD to reinstall it.
I got my laptop already installed with Final Cut Pro, and I don't have the CD.
Cac some one please help me?

No, sorry. Cinema Tools came only as a component of the Final Cut Studio package. It isn't a stand alone product. It was back in 2005 when it first came out. But that wasn't a download, that was a separate CD installer. And that version is incompatible with any of the Studio versions of FCP.
FCP doesn't come pre-installed on computers. It is sold as a separate software bundle. So you got part of the software when you bought the laptop...but you didn't get a legal license of FCP. And unfortunately FCP-7 and any and all before it are End of Life...gone. No longer for sale new. Only option is used/ebay.

Conforming 60fps to 25fps in FCP X without Cinema Tools

Hi,
I want to conform 60fps (and / or 50fps) footage to 25fps.
Unfortunately FCP X does not have Cinema Tools so I can’t conform it (as per the days of FCP 7).
In FCP X I am currently using the ‘conform speed’ function but am getting unsatisfactory results.
Is there another way to conform 60fps to 25fps?
I’ve tried:
Mpeg Streamclip,
Handbrake,
Compressor,
and Xilisoft.
None seem to work!
Please help!

Thanks for your help Tom. Yes am fully aware 60fps should conform to 30fps (and 50 to 25).
What I find unsatisfactory is the smoothness and resolution. My 60fps and 50fps conformed footage through Cinema Tools was far superior.
So..... onto a solution:
I've tried Handbrake, Compressor, Mpeg Streamclip and Xilisoft:
In the above applications I've changed the various FPS boxes to "25" (fps) but it hasn't made any difference!
Is there something I'm doing wrong?

Final cut studio fcp 4.5 dvd studio pro 3 cinema tools 3

will the apple production suite work with an imac g5 power pc ox tiger 10.4.8 with quicktimepro 7.1.3 using an AGP graphics card. will this version work on my computer. production suite comes with fcp 4.5 dvd studio pro 3 applemotion and cinema tools 3. will this work on my computer or do i need another version of this to work

anybody care to answer this one? Anybody? Somebody? Nobody?

FCP asking for Cinema tools application

I am trying to reverse telecine a couple of clips and FCP is asking to choose the Cinema tools application.
I selected the clips then clicked >Tools > Cinema Tools Reverse Telecine.
After this i get a pop up box asking to locate the Application.
As far as i am aware Cinema Tools does not operate outside of FCP so should i select FCP as the application?
Cheers Kev

It is part of FInal Cut Studio - of which Final Cut Pro is also a part. If you look in your applications folder, and you did a complete Final Cut Studio install, you should see Cinema Tool.app.
Have you move Final Cut Pro out of the Applications folder, or rearranged or renamed the apps from where they were originally installed?
Did you choose not to install Cinema Tools from the Final Cut Studio Install discs?
MtD

Creating Cinema Tools Program File when Exporting Film Lists

When Exporting a Cinema Tools Film List,
if the "Save a Cinema Tools Program File" option is checked, I get an error message saying:
"An error occurred in getting the parameters for the cut list."
It works fine if the option is unchecked, however, I need to create the Program File in order to generate a Change List later. Does anyone have a solution?
Thanks in advance for your replies.
Rajnesh

If there is anybody from apple, please answer this question. Without possibility changing data is film cut list good for nothing. Thank you.

Cinema tools film list export - source timecode?

We have a film that's been a real headache, we're exporting film lists from FCP linked to the CT database.
Is it possible to show source clip timecode instead of sequence timecode in the time column of the cut list or the pull list?
It would save us a lot of time, as is we have to go back and forth between the EDL and the film list.

We have a film that's been a real headache, we're exporting film lists from FCP linked to the CT database.
Is it possible to show source clip timecode instead of sequence timecode in the time column of the cut list or the pull list?
It would save us a lot of time, as is we have to go back and forth between the EDL and the film list.

Film workflow advice

Hello,
I need some workflow advice for a feature film and I would really appreciate some input and technical expertise. I am working with telecined footage from 16mm film and I need to perform reverse telecine with Cinematools so that I can edit the footage in Final cut. My end format will be a 35mm blow up from my original 16mm negative, so I need Cinematools to track my footage correctly so that I can later export a cut list for the negative cutter.
My digital footage is SD and is on DV cam tapes. The lab used a telecine speed of 23.98 when they transferred the footage. The lab provided flex files which I used to create a cinema tools database and to batch capture all of the footage.
First, I need to confirm that the footage was captured correctly.
To capture I used the FCP preset: DV NTSC 48 kHz (29.97 fps DV-NTSC Best Quality 720x480)
I did not use the FCP capture preset "DV NTSC 48 kHz Advanced (2:3:3:2) Pulldown Removal" because my understanding is that this preset is designed to remove pulldown during capture when used with external hardware designed to remove pulldown during capture, correct? In this case I will be removing the pulldown with Cinema Tools instead.
I also am assuming that setting the capture fps to 23.98 would have been wrong because my footage is coming from DV Cam tapes, which can only be 29.97, right? So even though the telecine speed was 23.98, the footage needs to be captured at 29.97 and then processed with Cinematools to make it 23.98 or 24 fps, correct?
Second, I need to know if my goal should be to make my footage 23.98 or 24 fps with Cinematools. If my end goal is to export an EDL for a negative cutter to go back to my 16mm footage to cut from, should I edit at 24 fps? I think the answer is yes, but then I am worried that my telecine was done at a speed of 23.98. My audio was recorded at 30 fps - though my understanding is that the fps of the audio doesn't matter since audio is recorded in time and not frames. However, I did read in the Cinematools manual that if the footage is 23.98 as opposed to 24 fps, then it means that my footage is going to playback at a slightly slower rate, thereby affecting audio sync. If that is true, will I have to slow my audio slightly to maintain sync? This doesn't seem ideal.
Third, I am having trouble when I do a reverse telecine test with Cinematools on my footage. I am looking at burned-in key code and film frame numbers in my footage and observing that when I advance through my footage frame by frame in FCP, the film frame numbers of every frame are perfectly clear and legible (they advance thus: A2, B2, C1, D1, D3). However, when I view a clip in Cinematools (pre-reverse telecine), the frame numbers are blurred and have interframe flicker (the interlacing field pattern). The same is true after I perform reverse telecine on the clip. The cinemtools manual mentions this as something to be avoided in a clip that has been reverse telecined (in "Checking you Reverse Telecine Results on page 132) - however I see this problem in clips that I have not yet reverse telecined.
I am worried because another person worked with this footage before me and I fear that they performed reverse telecine on the footage already (and incorrectly) and directed Cinematools to overwrite the original file instead of creating a new one. If this is true then I would have to start over and recapture everything. On the other hand, it seems like if that were the case I would see the problem in FCP as well. Is there a way that I can tell for sure?
Thank you so much in advance for any advice you can give me! I really appreciate it.

Thanks Jim. The project is sort of like an "extended music video".
So it is a record, 45 minutes long and then using that as a guide,
we shot the footage. Its not gonna be just lipsyncing all the time, but
there will be other things inserted there as well.
It is just the workflow that bothers me and mainly:
1 Should I convert HDV material after capturing with prores 422 or stay in native
2 When should I convert from PAL to NTSC?
3 Should I s t a r t, by importing the 5.1 surround mixes to FCP6 and then work
with that as a guide?
I´ve done some music videos before, but this is more like a music movie and
will be sold as a sales DVD.
I would appreciate any help you guys can give.
Thank you, timo

Problems with reverse telecine in Cinema tools

I am trying to reverse telecine some 24p footage I shot on a panasonic dvx. I have captured several tapes of footage in FCP 7 (as 29.97 footage to get the full data stream), then I have been sending clips to cinema tools to be reverse telecined, then bringing them back into FCP and editing on a 23.98 timeline. So far, I have used this workflow with three of my tapes and they all look fine in the end, but with one tape in particular I took all of the same steps but am having problems. When I bring clips from that tape into cinema tools and select "reverse telecine" it seems as if Cinema Tools is working and processing the footage, but at the very end the window with that clip suddenly disappears and no .rev file of the footage is created. Cinema tools remains open, only that window with the footage that was being processed is gone. I have tried recapturing the footage, renaming it, and double-checking my capture settings in FCP but have yet to figure out why these clips from this tape in particular will not be reverse telecined. Any suggestions about what I could be doing wrong?

I am almost positive I shot them the exact way, although the scene file dial on the dvx is pretty easily changed, so maybe if I bumped it during filming...
So to check, I looked at the footage before it was reverse telecined on an external moniter and it looks the same as all my other footage--with about 2 interlaced frames for every five frames. Is there another way I could check?
I'll try your compressor idea and see if that will remove the 3:2 pulldown! Thanks for the advice!

29.97 EDl to 24 in Cinema tools ::: inaccurate data result

Hello. I've been looking at some forums but haven't been able to find anybody with the same situation. I'm converting my EDL file from 30fps to 24fps on Cinema Tools. I opened the file to revise if the timecodes were indeed correct. Some of my "in" and "out" timecodes end in 00:00:00:29 or 00:00:00:28 and that shouldn't be since i'm supposedly converting everything to 24fps so everything should end in that range of frames (01 through 24 ), right?
Anything that might come to mind or relate to this problem?
i have a FCP 7
Best regards

Well then, that is your problem. Those aren't reverse telecin-able. What are reversable are DV tapes that you captured at 29.97...in the DV/NTSC codec.
Are you working with Digital Intermediates? Or footage telecined to tape?
Typical Telecine to Tape workflow is:
Telecine to DVCAM
Lab provides DVCAM and Flex file to you.
Open Cinema Tools. Import Flex file and export batch Capture list.
Import batch capture list into FCP.
Batch Capture the DV footage.
Reverse telecine the footage with Cinema Tools.
Edit.
What exactly are you doing? Where did these files come from? What is your workflow?
Shane

Reverse Telecine in Cinema Tools

My 24p fcp project is finished and I need to reverse telecine it to get rid of the ugly interlacing. How do I do this?
I've tried importing the movie into Cinema Tools and it keeps crashing. When I import the whole thing as a single clip (QT Movie), the Reverse Telecine button isn't available.
Also, why can't I import an mpeg-2 clip?
I'm using Cinema Tools 2.2, in case this has something to do with it.
Thanks in advance.

Oh, and Mr. Gilman was saying that there will be interlacing no matter what if it's on DVD or Beta? Why is this?
It's what I was trying to tell you when I said If tape, you need the pulldown anyway. If DVD, the pulldown would be added by the player.
You have to understand where the interlacing is coming from. It is coming from the pulldown inserted to bring the fps from 24 to 30...
Google reveals these Pulldown explanation pages:
http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/#24pRecording
http://home.aol.com/ajaynejr/pulldown.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24p
http://www.zerocut.com/tech/pulldown.html
http://www.denecke.com/24pinfo.htm
here's a visual representation of 24P with pulldown added to be recorded on a 29.97 tape (this is how all feature films are broadcast on NTSC)
You can see from this image that two frames BC and CD are interlaced - that is, they are made up of two fields taken from different frames. When a DVD has 24fps material on it, the DVD player automatically inserts this pulldown to bring it up to 30 fps so it can be shown on a regular TV.
Now. I believe your problem may stem from an incorrect field order, but first I want to ask - When you created your export of your movie that you fed into DVDSP to make your DVD, did you try importing it into FCP and playing it back on your TV. Did it look okay then?
Patrick

Film Workflow w/ FCP & Cinema Tools

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