Film list in Cinema Tools from 25 telecine, edited in a DV PAL-24 sequence

Hello professionals out there in the binary world,
I am looking for 24/25/24 answer to my problem and going thru all the questions like mine with no answer is just depressing !!!
Here is the problem:
We are editing on Final Cut Pro 4 with Cinematools 2.1
16mm shot at 24 FPS with a TC at 25fps to edit at 24fps in FCP 4
Sound recorded at 24FPS (Cantar)imported thru sebskytools...
We edited in a sequence DV PAL-24
(24@25 not available on FCP4)
Sound SEEMS ok as I need everything at 24FPS (quicktime movie, omf and edl)
For the image, I need a cut list for the negative cutter, when I want to make it in FCP4, in the settings, it doesn't allow me to change the TC rate to 25, it's greyed out, I have no choice else than 24...EVEN if I logged the database saying it was a 25fps TC.
In the database it's ok but it's not available in the FCP film list settings.
First weird thing..WHY ???
When the list is done, it says at the beginning and for all the clips used in the edit: "warning, the clip x does not have a telecine speed of 24FPS".... But the keycodes seems ok (same as my timeline)
SECOND PROBLEM:
I also need to tape the movie on beta for that negative cutter and it should be at 25FPS, like the TC otherwise the time won't correspond...HOW ??? Is it possible ?
Thanks for any information you could give me to clear it up a little bet !
All that 24/25 is a little cloudy in my mind, I would be thrilled if someone could blow those clouds away !
Marie
Final Cut Pro 4 / Cinema Tools 2.1 Mac OS X (10.3.1)

Hi Marie
Cloudy.....its a pea souper. Below is a cut and paste of some of the answers I have given in other threads. Also, I would get FCP5 studio as it is much better at all this.
Hi
This is the one area where avid beats FCP. 24fps Pal. I have now used FCP on a couple of PAL features and it is a bit of a pain. I also have the Apple pro support but most of this is all new to them.
Lets start with picture. As you know, you can either make tape/dvds that are the correct running length of the film and include a repeat frame or you can make them playing 4% fast with a pitch change but smooth pictures (1 frame film = 1 frame video). Most of the time, ie. when you are editing you will use the first method and live with the repeat frame. However, for VFX work and the NEG CUT or DI you will need to make 25 frame playouts.
The avid does this well but FCP is a pain.
One work around for the fast output is to export a QT of the cut and use cinema tools to conform it to 25fps. Some neg cutters or Digital labs will work to a QT, if they don't, then the 25fps QT can be imported into a new 25fps pal project so you can make a tape for the neg cutter which has the correct time code and you will have machine control. (Hint, I burn in 25fps TC when I make the QT). The edl will depend on your choice of film key number cut lists or a video edl. Key code lists work well but most neg cutters/labs dont like them. If you need an EDL then it should be made in the main 24@25 project but you need to set the edit code to 25fps before you make the edl. This is changed in the browser by going to TC RATE where it is set to 24@25 speed and right clicking. this gives you the option of changing the edit to 25 or 24 as well as 24@25. Most of the time while I cut, I have the edit set to 24fps not 24@25. Then I can see how long the show is running, how long a clip is etc.
Sound. Most people in the UK get rushes synched at the lab/tk house. They speed up the sound to match the speeded up picture. That blows the idea of an omf unless you are ok with the sound going through an analogue transfer which includes a speed change. If not, you will have to reconform from the original dats.
You must get flex files which will track the original location dat tapes and their time codes. These are used to in Cinema tools to make the batch capture list. When you want to make an edl at the end you will use EXPORT...CINEMA TOOLS AUDIO EDL.
Your audio post house may require a video tape with each reel having time code starting on the hour. That is very tricky and I tend to go back to my avid for that. You can do it by doing a crash record with the added frame and loading that back into a 25fps project. Then making tapes from there as you will now have machine control. Not pretty and quite time consuming. If they will work from QT files its easier.
I think you may have imported the audio which I haven't done in FCP yet. I will try BWAV import one day as they work well on the avid but have been told they don't work well on FCP. If they are working well for you then the omf route should be great. Let me know how you get on with audio.
I have managed to get through PAL features shot at 24 with FCP, but it sure is more work than on an avid, mostly for the assistant editors. However, I like cutting on FCP.
Best

Similar Messages

Cinema Tools Reverse Telecine problem-24 vs. 23.98 + sound issue

Hello again folks,
Trying to figure this all out, and thanks in advance for your input; this forum is amazing and has been invaluable!
I've been studying the FCP and CT pdf manuals and lots of links/threads here in the forum to get the proper workflow, have tried it all out, and ran into some problems:
Need to convert--sorry--REVERSE TELECINE--my captured DV 24p (captured at 29.97) footage into 23.98fps to edit in 23.98. Copied some media files so as not to ruin the originals, chose them from project bins, and sent them to CT using FCP'S "Tools>Cinema Tools Reverse Telecine" (super easy and feeling overconfident). When I checked the footage, two things were odd:
1) My new frame rate was at "24" not "23.98", which I believe I want to be working in in order to achieve my desired finished product (I'm sure I read this in the forum and links, does it matter?), and
2) for kicks, while there in Tools, I tried one clip with "Tools>Remove Advance Pulldown", which did result in the 23.98fps.
3) about 6 seconds into the new 23.98fps clip the sound disappears (I checked and the original clips have good sound throughout).
Any thoughts out there on this. Should I be reversing telecine from within CT (by importing clips), and not from FCP's easy Tools>Cinema Tools Reverse Telecine.
Any links or thoughts to clarify will be received with great admiration and thanks!
Greg
Macbook Pro Mac OS X (10.4.8) FCP ver.5.1.2. and CT ver.3.1.2
Macbook Pro Mac OS X (10.4.8)
Macbook Pro Mac OS X (10.4.8)

We'll need some more details. Where is your footage coming from? Was it originally HDCAM and downconverted to DV? Was the audio recorded straight to tape or was it synced in post? Is it consistently one or two frames out of sync or does it drift out of sync? How was it digitized? If you open the clip in Cinema Tools and step through it frame by frame do you see any interlaced frames?
There are dozens of things that can go wrong with this sort of process, so it's important to get really detailed.

Setting default cinema tools reverse telecine

Does anyone know of a way to set the default cinema tools reverse telecine to the following?
*Field 1 - Field 2*
*Style 1*
DD
I want to use the "Tools -> Cinema Tools Reverse Telecine" functionality from within Final Cut but for some reason Cinema Tools doesn't remember the settings above as the default. I noticed that it does remember the "capture mode" settings (Field 1 only, field 2 only, field 1 - field 2, field 2 - field 1), but I can't get it to remember the settings in the "Field" section. Does it even do this?
I'm shooting 24p on a Sony HDV camera and it resets the cadence on every new scene, so every clip begins with three progressive frames and then follows with two interlaced frames. I capture to Apple Intermediate Codec 60i. I've made a Compressor droplet to automatically remove the telecine but sometimes it messes up and a few resulting clips have interlacing erratically throughout. So, Cinema Tools is the best bet if I can get it to work in a batch process instead of clip-by-clip for hundreds of clips!
Any and all help would be greatly appreciated!

We'll need some more details. Where is your footage coming from? Was it originally HDCAM and downconverted to DV? Was the audio recorded straight to tape or was it synced in post? Is it consistently one or two frames out of sync or does it drift out of sync? How was it digitized? If you open the clip in Cinema Tools and step through it frame by frame do you see any interlaced frames?
There are dozens of things that can go wrong with this sort of process, so it's important to get really detailed.

TRIED EVERYTHING/NO LUCK with Reverse Telecine in Cinema Tools 29.97 to 24p

I read an article that was on Ken Stones site. It said that, basically you CAN'T
take a clip that is at 29.97 and has 3:2 pulldown in it, and get it to actual 24 progressive frames? Is this true? Has ANYONE out there actually removed pulldown CORRECTLY with footage shot at 24, then transferred to 29.97?
I've tried all options with Cinema Tools Reverse Telecine, and I always wind up with some interlacing.
My QT clip has a 3:2 cadence, one can frame through it and see this.
Am I missing something here? Does anyone know a procedure that can get me to 24 progressive frames. Is there a 3rd party piece of software out there?
Any relies appreciated.
G5 2.3 early Mac OS X (10.4.7) Cinema Tools V 3.1.1
G5 2.3 Mac OS X (10.3.8) Cinema Tools V3.1.1 QT V7.1.2 FCP V5.1.1

Well then, that is your problem. Those aren't reverse telecin-able. What are reversable are DV tapes that you captured at 29.97...in the DV/NTSC codec.
Are you working with Digital Intermediates? Or footage telecined to tape?
Typical Telecine to Tape workflow is:
Telecine to DVCAM
Lab provides DVCAM and Flex file to you.
Open Cinema Tools. Import Flex file and export batch Capture list.
Import batch capture list into FCP.
Batch Capture the DV footage.
Reverse telecine the footage with Cinema Tools.
Edit.
What exactly are you doing? Where did these files come from? What is your workflow?
Shane

FCP asking for Cinema tools application

I am trying to reverse telecine a couple of clips and FCP is asking to choose the Cinema tools application.
I selected the clips then clicked >Tools > Cinema Tools Reverse Telecine.
After this i get a pop up box asking to locate the Application.
As far as i am aware Cinema Tools does not operate outside of FCP so should i select FCP as the application?
Cheers Kev

It is part of FInal Cut Studio - of which Final Cut Pro is also a part. If you look in your applications folder, and you did a complete Final Cut Studio install, you should see Cinema Tool.app.
Have you move Final Cut Pro out of the Applications folder, or rearranged or renamed the apps from where they were originally installed?
Did you choose not to install Cinema Tools from the Final Cut Studio Install discs?
MtD

Get message "Choose Cinema Tools application"

I tried for the first time to use cinema tools in my Final Cut Pro 7.0.3, but i dident find the application. My application folder in finder its totaly empty. I see some cinematools.fcpres files with NTSC and PAL in the Final Cut folder but its not some install files. Can i in somehow download just cinemma tools and get it in to my Final Cut program or how should il do? I have a work in progress and i need this application to get it done. So when i mark an clip an choose open in cinema tools i get the message "Choose cinema tools application".
Please help me!
Thanks / Gabriel

But i havent the dvd, my question is if i can download Cinema Tools from apples homesite and put it in the folder application? Or if i download cinema tools where should i put it?
I dont knnow why it dident start when i installed it from the begning

Removing cinema tools

I need to remove cinema tools from my laptop. When I installed FCP, I installed all the FCP components and now need more space on my laptop's hard drive. I'm still getting used to macs after living in a pc world so bear with me a sec. Can I simply drag the cinema tools icon from the application folder to the trash? Or do I run the Final Cut installer, uncheck cinema tools and click upgrade? (the only option other than cancel)
Thx

You can simply delete the Cinema Tools application and the receipt associated with it in the /Library/Receipts/ folder.
(19810)

Creating Cinema Tools Program File when Exporting Film Lists

When Exporting a Cinema Tools Film List,
if the "Save a Cinema Tools Program File" option is checked, I get an error message saying:
"An error occurred in getting the parameters for the cut list."
It works fine if the option is unchecked, however, I need to create the Program File in order to generate a Change List later. Does anyone have a solution?
Thanks in advance for your replies.
Rajnesh

If there is anybody from apple, please answer this question. Without possibility changing data is film cut list good for nothing. Thank you.

Cinema tools film list export - source timecode?

We have a film that's been a real headache, we're exporting film lists from FCP linked to the CT database.
Is it possible to show source clip timecode instead of sequence timecode in the time column of the cut list or the pull list?
It would save us a lot of time, as is we have to go back and forth between the EDL and the film list.

We have a film that's been a real headache, we're exporting film lists from FCP linked to the CT database.
Is it possible to show source clip timecode instead of sequence timecode in the time column of the cut list or the pull list?
It would save us a lot of time, as is we have to go back and forth between the EDL and the film list.

Film Workflow w/ FCP & Cinema Tools

I am cutting a feature shot on film for the first time and have a workflow question. Apologies if this post has been done to death and feel free to send a link to another post or site.
The film is being shot in 2 perf 35mm. It is going to the post house to be transferred to HDSR for effects. We are being given DVCAM tapes with burnt in timecode at 29.97 for offline editing. We will then give them an EDL at the end for online.
So what's next?
If I capture the DVCam tapes at 29.97, I then have to conform in CinemaTools right? This is where I'm unsure, as I am not familiar with the program.
Any info on the steps would be VERY much appreciated. Cheers in advance!

BTW - That "read the cinema tools" response was both unhelpful and trite.
Your question deals with workflow, however, something confuses me.
If the feature was shot on 35mm, Telecine to HD-CAM SR and then downconverted to SD DV-CAM, I really doubt it is 29.97 w/ burned timecode.
Usually people shoot 24 when shooting film.
If that is the case then:
1) Your HD-CAM SR is 23.98
2) Your DVCAM is 29.97 with 23.98 Timecode burn in.
If you need to deliver an EDL for offline then your EDL will be worthless if your cutting in 29.97. The timecodes won't match.
So, the easiest thing (if an option) is to get the HD-CAM SR and get a Pro-Res file of that at 23.98. That could be converted down to whatever format you need for editing and wouldn't require removing pulldown. It will also give you a perfect EDL because it was taken from the master.
The second way, is to go the route you already have in mind.
1) Capture DVCAM at 29.97 and
2) remove 3:2 pulldown before you start editing.
There are many pitfalls with this method but atleast you have the burn-in to use as reference if you stray off course (meaning, you remove pulldown incorrectly).
Here are some methods:
A) track down After Effects. It has a function called Inerpret Footage. This will guess your pulldown and create new native media. This is my preferred method.
B) Use Cinema Tools. You should export a small segment of your footage and test removing the pulldown. Most don't get it right without determining the I-Frame.
C) Use Compressor's frame controls to remove your pulldown. This method (in my mind) is the sloppies of the bunch. It provides errors around cadence breaks... some people will disagree.
Either way, you'll need to treat that DVCAM footage before you start editing. Otherwise, you'll have to hand write your EDL if you cut in NTSC (29.97).
Hope this helps.

Problems with reverse telecine in Cinema tools

I am trying to reverse telecine some 24p footage I shot on a panasonic dvx. I have captured several tapes of footage in FCP 7 (as 29.97 footage to get the full data stream), then I have been sending clips to cinema tools to be reverse telecined, then bringing them back into FCP and editing on a 23.98 timeline. So far, I have used this workflow with three of my tapes and they all look fine in the end, but with one tape in particular I took all of the same steps but am having problems. When I bring clips from that tape into cinema tools and select "reverse telecine" it seems as if Cinema Tools is working and processing the footage, but at the very end the window with that clip suddenly disappears and no .rev file of the footage is created. Cinema tools remains open, only that window with the footage that was being processed is gone. I have tried recapturing the footage, renaming it, and double-checking my capture settings in FCP but have yet to figure out why these clips from this tape in particular will not be reverse telecined. Any suggestions about what I could be doing wrong?

I am almost positive I shot them the exact way, although the scene file dial on the dvx is pretty easily changed, so maybe if I bumped it during filming...
So to check, I looked at the footage before it was reverse telecined on an external moniter and it looks the same as all my other footage--with about 2 interlaced frames for every five frames. Is there another way I could check?
I'll try your compressor idea and see if that will remove the 3:2 pulldown! Thanks for the advice!

Reverse Telecine in Cinema Tools

My 24p fcp project is finished and I need to reverse telecine it to get rid of the ugly interlacing. How do I do this?
I've tried importing the movie into Cinema Tools and it keeps crashing. When I import the whole thing as a single clip (QT Movie), the Reverse Telecine button isn't available.
Also, why can't I import an mpeg-2 clip?
I'm using Cinema Tools 2.2, in case this has something to do with it.
Thanks in advance.

Oh, and Mr. Gilman was saying that there will be interlacing no matter what if it's on DVD or Beta? Why is this?
It's what I was trying to tell you when I said If tape, you need the pulldown anyway. If DVD, the pulldown would be added by the player.
You have to understand where the interlacing is coming from. It is coming from the pulldown inserted to bring the fps from 24 to 30...
Google reveals these Pulldown explanation pages:
http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/#24pRecording
http://home.aol.com/ajaynejr/pulldown.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24p
http://www.zerocut.com/tech/pulldown.html
http://www.denecke.com/24pinfo.htm
here's a visual representation of 24P with pulldown added to be recorded on a 29.97 tape (this is how all feature films are broadcast on NTSC)
You can see from this image that two frames BC and CD are interlaced - that is, they are made up of two fields taken from different frames. When a DVD has 24fps material on it, the DVD player automatically inserts this pulldown to bring it up to 30 fps so it can be shown on a regular TV.
Now. I believe your problem may stem from an incorrect field order, but first I want to ask - When you created your export of your movie that you fed into DVDSP to make your DVD, did you try importing it into FCP and playing it back on your TV. Did it look okay then?
Patrick

Create change lists for HDCAM project without Cinema Tools?

Hi
We have an HD project, shot on video, and are getting to final stages of mixing. Is there way to set a version, and then make changes and generate a change list? Needless to say, we haven't been using Cinema Tools (and the Export Change List process asks us to select a CT database). Is this only possible for film projects?
Thanks!
Matt

Actually, I figured it out.
1) Open Cinema Tools and create a new, blank database. Remember its name and where you saved it.
2) Open your original sequence in FCP. Go to FIle - Export - Cinema Tools Film Lists. If it's a video project, you can ignore the film-specific fields (footage length, key numbers and the like), but make sure that "Save a Cinema Tools program file" is ticked. In the columns on the right, I have "Time", "Source Time" and "Clip name" added. When prompted, locate your database file.
3) Export the file.
4) Now, open the changed sequence in FCP. Go to File - Export - Cinema Tools Change List. Locate the Cinema Tools program file you saved earlier.
You can select "Combine deletions" if you don't want to see separate edits across a multi-clip deletion. (ie, trim tail, delete clip, delete clip, trim head).
The first few pages will probably be most useful for video projects, since they use timecodes; the other sections of the report seem to be based on key codes.
Matt

Video Rate Changes from Cinema Tools to Final Cut

I have a problem that exists on serveral levels. Hopefully I can explain:
1. I directed a concert shoot with eight cameras. All cameras were Panasonic DVX100A configured for 24p Advanced except one, which was a Panasonic SDX900 configured for 24p (which I later discovered was laid down with a 3:2 pulldown instead of a 2:3:3:2 advanced pulldown like the DVX100A cameras).
2. It was planned from the beginning to use the multiclip feature in FCP to edit the footage.
3. The tapes from each camera were captured from beginning to end—about an hour each tape, four tapes per camera—at full resolution, the pulldown was removed, and the clips were then recompressed to Photo JPEG EXCEPT the tapes from the SDX900.
4. When I finally figured out that the footage from the SDX900 used a 3:2 pulldown, I opened the captured clips in Cinema Tools and attempted to remove the pulldown. The problem I ran into there was that CT can't handle files larger than 9 GB. Each captured clip (four of them—one for each tape) ranged between 10 and 13 GB.
5. My solution to this was to open each clip in QuickTime Pro and split the clip in half, open each half in CT and remove the pulldown on the smaller files, then open the smaller halves in QT again and join them back together into a single clip.
6. When I open the new master clips in Cinema Tools and analyze them, the video/frame rate is 23.98 as expected. BUT, when I import the clips into Final Cut Pro, the video/frame rate is 29.97 and I can't understand why. If I try to do a pulldown removal (again) from FCP, it doesn't work—I get an error that it can't find a clip with a pulldown to remove (duh!).
Is this a bug, and is there any way to fix this and make it work? I need to make all of the assets available for my class at school.

I have a problem that exists on serveral levels. Hopefully I can explain:
1. I directed a concert shoot with eight cameras. All cameras were Panasonic DVX100A configured for 24p Advanced except one, which was a Panasonic SDX900 configured for 24p (which I later discovered was laid down with a 3:2 pulldown instead of a 2:3:3:2 advanced pulldown like the DVX100A cameras).
2. It was planned from the beginning to use the multiclip feature in FCP to edit the footage.
3. The tapes from each camera were captured from beginning to end—about an hour each tape, four tapes per camera—at full resolution, the pulldown was removed, and the clips were then recompressed to Photo JPEG EXCEPT the tapes from the SDX900.
4. When I finally figured out that the footage from the SDX900 used a 3:2 pulldown, I opened the captured clips in Cinema Tools and attempted to remove the pulldown. The problem I ran into there was that CT can't handle files larger than 9 GB. Each captured clip (four of them—one for each tape) ranged between 10 and 13 GB.
5. My solution to this was to open each clip in QuickTime Pro and split the clip in half, open each half in CT and remove the pulldown on the smaller files, then open the smaller halves in QT again and join them back together into a single clip.
6. When I open the new master clips in Cinema Tools and analyze them, the video/frame rate is 23.98 as expected. BUT, when I import the clips into Final Cut Pro, the video/frame rate is 29.97 and I can't understand why. If I try to do a pulldown removal (again) from FCP, it doesn't work—I get an error that it can't find a clip with a pulldown to remove (duh!).
Is this a bug, and is there any way to fix this and make it work? I need to make all of the assets available for my class at school.

Reverse Telecine Question (Cinema Tools)

Dear board members,
I have footage that was shot with Panasonic AG-HVX200 in 1080i60 (29.97fps), but with 24p function with a 2:3 pulldown. When I ingest it in FCP through Log and Transfer this footage (for some peculiar reason) shows up as 1080p30. I also need to remove pulldown to make it 24 (23,98) FPS.
My workaround is as follows:
1) I export these files from FCP as DVCPRO HD 1080i60 QT files.
2) then I send these new "masters" to Cinema Tools, where I do Reverse Telecine process.
The results looks fine, but I just want to double-check my settings in Cinema Tools, because the batch for this job contains thousands of clips and there is no room for mistake.
Reverse Telecine in Cinema Tools settings:
Capture Mode:
Field 1 - Field 2
Fields:
AA
File:
New (smaller)
Frames:
Conform to: 23.98 FPS
Standard Upper/Lower: Checked
Thank you very much for your time and (hopefully) helpful comments.
Regards,
Tim

I just did a test yesterday with MXFX software and there is a visible recompression in the resulting file. I compared the same frame (from different clips) processed through Cinema Tools and MXFX and also compared it to the original frame and MXFX clearly does something to the image (recompression or noise reduction, whatever you want to call it). Contacted them about it, they said they will look at it. Anyhow, the result is pretty visible at 200% zoom. Anyhow, that made me decide against MXFX.
Thanks for a suggestion though.

Film list in Cinema Tools from 25 telecine, edited in a DV PAL-24 sequence

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