Headphones: CMSS & 2 spkr vs 5.1 & No C

Americas Army Gamers in a quandry. We are having a good conversation on X-FI and headphones on TWL AA forums
http://www.teamwarfare.com/forums/sh...=279358&page=5
The main question: "are 5. headphones running in 5. mode better than using regular 2 spkr headphones in CMSS mode?"
The thought is that because CMSS is there to simulate surround in std headphones that the natural 5. must be better becuase it is what it's trying to simulate? It's actual surround. Is this true?
I wonder because I'm trying to decide whether to go 5. headphones and not run CMSS or get a nice set of standard headphones and run CMSS.
Help please.
Thanks, BurZurk-

BurZurk wrote:
Americas Army Gamers in a quandry. We are having a good conversation on X-FI and headphones on TWL AA forums
http://www.teamwarfare.com/forums/sh...=279358&page=5
The main question: "are 5. headphones running in 5. mode better than using regular 2 spkr headphones in CMSS mode?"
The thought is that because CMSS is there to simulate surround in std headphones that the natural 5. must be better becuase it is what it's trying to simulate? It's actual surround. Is this true?
I wonder because I'm trying to decide whether to go 5. headphones and not run CMSS or get a nice set of standard headphones and run CMSS.
Help please.
Thanks, BurZurk-
You are proceeding with an assumption that may not be valid. There is nothing "natural" about 5. - a sound, say a gunshot, can come from any point in 3d space around you, right? Not just 5 specific locations?
And how do you localize that sound? You have....how many ears? 2, right?
What CMSS does is it matches 2 speakers to your 2 ears and attempts to simulate the total surround-sound field around you - all 360 degrees - far better than 5 distinct points of sound sources in a flat plane surrounding you. It achieves this by...well, a rather complicated set of algorithms that attempts to manipulate the sound the same way the shape of your ears does.
CMSS with good headphones is WAY more accurate at positioning audio than 5. speakers.Message Edited by xanderf on 0-04-2006 07:7 AM

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Headphones CMSS WinXP vs Win7

Hello... I have a little problem with my X-Fi Xtreme Music in Win7. I used WinXP before, except for a minor bug here and there, the card worked PERFECTLY. The sound was awesome.
I upgraded to Win7 x64 now and I encounter one major issue which bugs me beyond belief:
CMSS sounds a LOT worse in Win7, than it did in WinXP.
Why is that? I tried the drivers from Creative, as well as some Daniel K drivers. I had the issue with all of those.
What do I mean with 'sounds worse'? Simply put, if I use dual pistols in L4D2 and fire at a high rate, in WinXP there was no problem at all, regardless of the settings.
In Win7, I need to disable CMSS. Once enabled, the card seems to 'swallow' the sounds. If I fire fast enough, the shots suddenly get very silent, the surroundings get more silent..... In my opinion, it's as good as unplayable like this.
Same for music. If I enable CMSS, the further the slider goes towards 'surround', the worse the effect gets: Heavy bass is swallowed, it sounds like everything gets more silent for a very short moment, if a stronger bass kicks in.
Regardless of the mode (entertainment / gaming).
It's hard to describe and I guess my skills of describing an audio problem in english are very limited. I still hope for an answer, because I'm going nuts here. Maybe read this post twice, I can imagine it's kinda hard to read.
Help would be VERY appreciated. I'm about one week away of simply buying a different card.... Tried 2 forums so far, nobody could help me there, everyone being like 'Mine works fine' or 'Mine didnt work at all', my problem seems to be unknown.

Maybe i wasn t clear enough: I play FPS games ,but i dont use CMSS neither in XP or 7. The motivation is simple ,when i was using Audigy 2 leaving CMSS on made the positional sound to suck hard.So i off it with X-Fi too. I want plain stereo when using headphones(rarelly, it s bad for ears) or 2 speakers. If you re using multichannel headphones thats something else. 1.) I only use CMSS when i need to use my Logitech X 530 full 5.1 with mp 3 to upmix. 2.) EAX is emulated by Alchemy under W7 so you wont get correct postional with or without CMSS on. 3.) For listening music under XP or 7 you should use Foobar 2000 and it s ASIO plug in http://www.foobar2000.org/ . The sound in W7 is better in my opinion as perception overall ,less distorsions.You should also take a look at the Audio properties in W7 and try another sampling rate. 4.)You can use a dual boot XP and 7 anytime.

Cleaning Lint/Dust/Dirt From the Docking Port, Headphone Jack, Mic & Spkr

Does anyone know if you spray canned air (Dust Off) into the docking port, headphone jack, mic & speaker ports, if the air will blow the lint/dust/dirt deep into the phone or possibly under the screen where you can't get it back out?

i just use a toothpick and dig it out. the dock port and headphone jack are fairly closed off so the chance of pushing the lint / gunk in deeper is pretty low. so far no issues

X-FI 3D positional sound through headphones with CMSS

UPDATE: To Creative employees
Please respond to this thread and try to sort this issue. Is bad sound from "headphones"+CMSS On due to a limitation of the hardware (is the sound quality degradation compared to "2/2. speakers"+CMSS On due to a much more complex algorithm of 3D positional sound mixing)?
Is there a way to adjust the speaker angles in Calibration tab of THX Console to more than 60 degrees (I would definitely consider a hexediting hack as a viable solution, whatever works)?
I have this problem with X-FI Fatalty. Maybe someone knows what to do about it... I'm trying to get 3D positional sound to work through regular stereo headphones using CMSS 3D. The way I have it set up is as follows:the win xp Control Panel is set to 5., X-FI audio console is set to "headphones" or "2/2. speakers", and CMSS 3D is enabled at default settings. It does work - the 5. sounds from, say, a game is downmixed to stereo with 3D positional effects mixed in (sounds coming from behind are of a different tone, and actually sound like they come from behind). There are problems however.With "headphones" setting, the sound quality is atrocious - the sound is muddy and boomy. The 3D positional audio effects work great - I can pinpoint every direction from which the sound is coming fairly accurately. Note that without CMSS 3D, the "headphone" setting sounds great.With "2/2. speakers" setting, the sound quality is normal (sounds great on my HD555 headphones), but the 3D positional audio effects are not good - audio control panel in X-FI software allows only a maximum of 20 degrees setting for the angle between the speakers, whereas 80 degrees would be required to simulate 3D effects through headphones (X-FI software has two settings for that actually, (+/-)60 degrees maximum for each speaker, with the reference angle of zero degrees being directly in front of the listener - directly in between the two speakers).So my questions is this. Has anyone figured out how to either improve the quality of the sound with "headphones" setting, or increase the angles of the speakers to (+/-)90 degrees (80 total) with "2/2. speakers" setting?
Message Edited by acrh2 on 0-3-2006 0:45 PM
Message Edited by acrh2 on 0-3-2006 0:46 PM

The only possibility that I can think of is that 2/2. mode is NOT as simple as headphone mode with crosstalk cancelation. Perhaps the HRTF only kicks in for sound sources outside of the arc directly in front of the listener. If that were the case, you wouldn't percei've any distortion for sound sources in front of you.
Also, you are wrong regarding DirectSound3D. Keep in mind that Direct3D and DirectSound3D are not the same. The whole point of OpenAL and DirectSound3D is that they present an API to the programmer through which there is NO specification of the number of speakers. When using OpenAL or DirectSound3D, the only thing a programmer can do is specify the location of a mono sound source in 3D space relati've to the listener. The speaker settings for your DirectSound3D or OpenAL device will then determine how this sound is "rendered" by the soundcard. It is not under control of the game. For example, if you have 5. speakers and the 3D position is behind you, the SOUND CARD will make the decision to use the rear speakers. If you use headphones, the SOUND CARD will decide to apply an HRTF to create the illusion of a rear sound source. The point is that the game does not have control over how many speakers you will get sound from.
However, to further complicate the situation, there are SOME games (HL2 is an example) where DirectSound3D is used, BUT the sound output of the game itself IS a function of the Windows speaker settings. This is not how programmers are SUPPOSED to use DirectSound3D. I've written about this countless times. There is a good post on [H]ard|Forum about this. Do an "advanced" search with my username (thomase) looking for the terms "hl2" and "cmss".

CMSS-3D on the Audig

There is a chart in the "Soundblaster Audio Technologies Glossary" which describes the CMSS modes in terms of the source type (2-channel, multi-channel, or 3D) and the playback type (headphones, 2 speakers, or multi-channel speakers).
The Speaker Calibration tool included with the Audigy 2 provides advanced calibration that seems to be releated to binaural virtualization (or 3D spatialization). This is available not only for headphone and 2 speaker calibration, but also for 4 speaker calibration. However, it is not available for 5/6/7 speaker calibration.
It is clear that when 4 speaker mode is selected, 3D sound sources undergo 3D spatialization rather than simple multi-channel panning as indicated in the chart.
In general, when the source is multi-channel, such as a DVD soundtrack, how is this mapped to multi-channel speakers (4 or more) if the number of speakers is not the same as the number of source channels? Is 4 speakers a special case?

I know there is a Sensaura file in the X-Fi driver release, but I never saw such a file in any Audigy 2 driver release. Also, I missed something in the knowledgebase, it does say that 4 speaker mode also gets HRTF effects, but it isn't in the chart.
Furthermore, I found out some more things when I picked up an X-Fi last night.
When 2/2. or 4/4. speakers are selected, the CMSS panel displays CMSS-Virtual. This uses HRTF to create virtual speakers. It ALSO allows you to turn both MacroFX and "Elevation Filter" on and off when using headphones (CMSS-Headphone) or CMSS-Virtual. However, when using 5. or more speakers, CMSS-Surround is displayed instead and you CANNOT select MacroFX and "Elevation Filter". This suggests that there is no HRTF with 5. or more speakers. In this case, for a Direct3D or OpenAL game, why would you ever want to use more than 4 speakers, even if your setup has 5/6/7? I only have headphones, so I can't experiment. Does anyone with 5. speakers want to try this out? Compare the 4. setting to the 5. setting in a OpenAL/DirectSound3D game such as BF2 or COD. You can also directly test positional audio using Rightmark 3DSound Positional Accuracy test. Be sure to calibrate your speakers properly (especially the rears) and position them correctly when using 4. mode, or else the HRTF effects won't work.

Audigy 2 5.1 with head

I currently have an audigy 2 configured for 5. surround. But i now want to use a headset (headphones and mic) for skype. I have a logitec headset which has 2 audio jacks - one for the mic and the other for the headphones. How can i get this working with the audigy?
Thanks.Message Edited by simonb7 on 08-7-2005 07:39 PM

Mic plugged into mic socket on card, headphone(black)into spkr(green).
In volume control(or surround mixer)make sure mic is selected for record source and that the slider is up).
Easy as that.

Frequency response requirements for headphones with CMSS on XFi ???

Hi,
I would like to know if someone could tell me what kind of heaphones are suitable for the CMSS mode with the XFi.
I mean between : flat response/free-field correction/diffuse-field correction.
Applying HRTF filtering should mean that headphones with flat response is the best option ( same configuration as binaural recordings).
But I have a big doubt that Creative team expects costumers to possess such a pair of headphones, as it is rather for scientific uses (psychoacoustics, audiology etc...).
So, if we look at the technical solutions for wide audience we have two options (FF correction and DF correction). Here is a trick because these corrections intend to reproduce some of the effects from HRTF (for two different environment configuration of HRTF measurements). It is why the frequency response of most of the headphones have a notch between 4Hz and 0 kHz.
To simplify, if we listen binaural sounds with classical headphones the effect of outer pinna is reproduced twice.
So I guess Creative have implemented a kind of normalization/equalization/correction process to deal with the non-flat frequency response of headphones, but do someone know if they have chosen diffuse field or free field correction ?
This post might seem a detail but the issue can be very important for the accurate localisation and the coloration? of 3D sounds with headphones.
Thank you, and please forgive my english!

The only possibility that I can think of is that 2/2. mode is NOT as simple as headphone mode with crosstalk cancelation. Perhaps the HRTF only kicks in for sound sources outside of the arc directly in front of the listener. If that were the case, you wouldn't percei've any distortion for sound sources in front of you.
Also, you are wrong regarding DirectSound3D. Keep in mind that Direct3D and DirectSound3D are not the same. The whole point of OpenAL and DirectSound3D is that they present an API to the programmer through which there is NO specification of the number of speakers. When using OpenAL or DirectSound3D, the only thing a programmer can do is specify the location of a mono sound source in 3D space relati've to the listener. The speaker settings for your DirectSound3D or OpenAL device will then determine how this sound is "rendered" by the soundcard. It is not under control of the game. For example, if you have 5. speakers and the 3D position is behind you, the SOUND CARD will make the decision to use the rear speakers. If you use headphones, the SOUND CARD will decide to apply an HRTF to create the illusion of a rear sound source. The point is that the game does not have control over how many speakers you will get sound from.
However, to further complicate the situation, there are SOME games (HL2 is an example) where DirectSound3D is used, BUT the sound output of the game itself IS a function of the Windows speaker settings. This is not how programmers are SUPPOSED to use DirectSound3D. I've written about this countless times. There is a good post on [H]ard|Forum about this. Do an "advanced" search with my username (thomase) looking for the terms "hl2" and "cmss".

Enable CMSS-3D with 5.1 Surround Sound Headphon

Hey everyone I heared of a post or something on another site that a creative rep or soemthing said that you should have CMSS-3D off when you have the X-FI configured for 5. speakers. Is this true? I did a search of the forums and didnt find an answer. So please someone answer! thanks!

It depends on what you're doing. When you have 5. headphones connected, you should set up the card as if you are using 5. speakers. The CMSS-3DHeadphone option is for when you are using standard stereo headphones, and the speaker selection is set to "Headphones".
You can enable CMSS with your 5. headphones (but set the speaker selection to 5., that way you get the right CMSS setting), so you get 5. from sources like music, for instance. Music is normally only stereo.
Cat

CMSS 3d headphone not working under entertainment mode.

Hello everyone,
I purchased a X-Fi titanium? in the last few days and installed the latest drivers (2_7_0007) and console lauchers (2_6_30). However I found the following problems.
[I have already tried to uninstall and reinstall the driver and the applications. The on board sound card has been disabled in BIOS
my operation system is Vista SP, motherboard: ASUS P5Q, CPU: E6550, 4GB RAM. ]
) under entertainment mode, the CMSS 3D headphone is not functional. I have tried to follow the instructions of how to turning on CMSS 3d on the creative website, but it seems that i have different control interface to the instructions.
interface from my computer
?<img width="302[/img] src="http://by22w.bay22.mail.li've.com/att/GetAttachment.aspx?tnail=&messageId=7ed58885-8aa4-45e4-9b64-2857268bee43&Aux=4|0|8CBEFCFC297430|" height="232"><img width="302" alt="entertainment mode_Mine setting[/img] src="http://by22w.bay22.mail.li've.com/att/GetAttachment.aspx?tnail=0&messageId=7ed58885-8aa4-45e4-9b64-2857268bee43&Aux=4|0|8CBEFCFC297430|" height="230">
Interface from the instruction flash obtained on the creative website
?<img width="227[/img] src="http://by22w.bay22.mail.li've.com/att/GetAttachment.aspx?tnail=0&messageId=56ca56d-4a36-49e-b0e9-be6409c863ff&Aux=4|0|8CBE203BE08060|" height="80">
However under Game Mode i can get access to CMSS 3D headphone settings, and this feature do sound great.
<img width="302[/img] src="http://by22w.bay22.mail.li've.com/att/GetAttachment.aspx?tnail=2&messageId=7ed58885-8aa4-45e4-9b64-2857268bee43&Aux=4|0|8CBEFCFC297430|" height="23">
2) The other thing is that when I plug in my headphone the console <img border="0" src="file:///C:/Users/weijay/Desktop/entertainment%20mode.jpg">launcher could not detect it automatically. Is it true that this function only works with the front audio dri've bay?
3) another related problem is that after I plug in the headphone and i pressed the auto detect button, the system can only find a 2 speaker system connection.
So if anybody can help me with above problems I will be more than grateful. Thank you very much.

Update on my issue. I got everything to work flawlessly now. For some reason If I clicked the crystalizer, CMSS 3d or if I think even when i tried adjusting the Bass Crossover it had no effect under the Creative console launcher. When I went into the Audio Console and started messing with those options there they worked great!! So for now on I'm sticking to the Audio Console instead of that launcher, now I can listen to my **bleep** music in 7. like I'm supposed to.

Audigy 2 ZS with Headphones in Vista for gaming: CMSS

Hi guys,
I have an Audigy 2 ZS sound card in Vista and I'm using KOSS SB-45 headphones. Now I'm wondering if I should be using CMSS3D enabled to use with gaming? I'm currently playing games like Call of Duty 4, and I'm not sure if it would be better with it on or off. Thanks for the input.

The previous post is inaccurate:? CMSS includes many modes, which will work depending on the speaker configuration. This means that CMSS set?to ON on 5. speakers is not the same as CMSS on Headphones. The selection is done automatically, depending on your selected speaker configuration. For example CMSS on headphones uses HRTFs to produce the effect, while on multi-speaker systems it simply maps and pans the sound. From my experience, CMSS works?good on headphones, not only for games, but for music as well. It expands the soundfield, where on simple stereo and headphones you normally hear the sound inside your head. My opinion is, that CMSS sounds much better on headphones than on speaker systems.

CMSS 3D Headphones and current games

Hi!
After reading a lot about how to set CMSS-3d Headphones I am still confused
there is a lot of conflicting information about how to use CMSS properly.
Three general propositions are spread:
1. use Headphones setting everywhere (system,console.game)
2. use 5.1 setting in game and system and Headphone in console
3. use 5.1 setting in game and Headphone settins in system and console
I am not sure what sound engine use current games (but noe EAX probably) and how it applies to CMSS. there is no way to de-synchronize speaker settings in Windows 7 (so point 2 I not possible for me)
There was a discussion somewhere on forums (guru3d probably) and it ended without clear solution. Some users claim that 5.1 input is essential and it has to be set in game , some other claim that stereo input carries all needed data to create directional sound for CMSS. Maybe here I could find a final answer how to configure new games like Dead Space 3, Far Cry 3?

when possible, configure in the game to 7.1/5.1, you got nothing to lose

Is the CMSS headphone upmix EAX depende

In other words, if I play a game on Vista and it offers no OpenAL support is the virtual surround function of CMSS still functional?

As I understand it, CMSS headphone gets positional information about the actual sources of sounds in the game straight from DirectSound3D or OpenAL, assuming the games have hardware accelerated audio. So on games that rely on DirectSound3D, you would probably want to use ALchemy in order to get the best positional audio from CMSS on a Vista system. Otherwise, CMSS will emulate 2 speakers, or 5 speakers, or whatever you have set up. That's how I understand it anyway... seems a pretty confusing topic.
ALchemy ought to work for any such game... just a matter of finding the right settings for the ones that aren't on the list I guess.

EAX and CMSS-3D Through Optical TO Headphone Dac / Amp

I would like to have EAX and CMSS-3D to my external DAC / Headphone amp through optical toslink for my headphones. Is this possible?

/ Works for me and my Audigy 2 (when CMSS is actually working that is).
The thing with your digital out is that unless you're using something like the Dolby or DTS realtime encoder, it can only send out a stereo PCM signal, which is of course fine for headphones.

X-Fi CMSS-3D, Headphone surround, F.E.A.R. and Quak

Hi there.
I'm trying to use the 'right' audio settings to play F.E.A.R. and Quake 4 using my new X-Fi Xtreme Music.
I'm a bit confused about when / when not to use CMSS-3D. Does it upmix a stereo mix to 'virtual' surround? Or does it enable OpenAL / DirectSound to produce further positional realism?
Should I turn it on when I'm playing with two speakers?
Should I turn it on when I'm playing with four speakers? (depends on how late/loud I can be!)
Most importantly, should I turn it on when I'm playing with headphones?
Or does it depend on the game itself?
I'm a bit confused!

The easy question first... The surround/stereo settings are only relevant for Doom3/Quake4 when using the original non-OpenAL sound engine. In this mode, it outputs DIRECTLY to 2 channels or 5 channels on the stereo and surround settings respecti'vely. As far as the soundcard is concerned, it looks like you are playing a 2 channel or 5 channel sound file - ie. there is no 3D audio API involved. Now depending on your speaker and CMSS3D settings, you COULD get your X-Fi to "process" this output. For example, if you have 4 or more speakers selected, and you enable CMSS3D-Surround, AND you set Doom3 output to stereo (non-OpenAL mode), the X-Fi will use its upmixing algorithms to deri've 4/5/6/7 channels. Similarly, if you have 4 speakers, 2 speakers, or headphones selected, and you enable CMSS3D-Virtual, AND you set Doom3 output to surround (non-OpenAL mode), the X-Fi will use its HRTF virtualization algorithms to create 5 virtual speakers.
Regarding what exactly CMSS3D is, the best explanation is in the Soundblaster Audio Technologies Glossary (under Audio Playback Technologies) in the Creative Knowledgebase. Unfortunately, they use the same acronym (CMSS) to apply to both upmixing, HRTF based virtualization of multi-channel speakers, AND HRTF based spatialzation of 3D audio (arbitrary 3D coordinates are provided with the sound). The knowledgebase article describes CMSS as it is known in the Li've! and Audigy series. One inaccuracy with the table shown in the article - the one that describes what CMSS does based on the number of source channels and the number of speaker channels - is that 4 speakers mode also uses HRTF to spatialize 3D audio (while 5 or more channels does not).
With the release of the X-Fi, the terminolgy is cleared up a bit. You'll notice that depending on the speakers you have selected, you'll see either CMSS3D-Surround, CMSS3D-Virtual, or CMSS3D-Headphone. CMSS3D-Surround is the upmixing stuff, CMSS3D-Headphone is HRTF virtualization/spatialization, and CMSS3D-Virtual is virtualization/spatialization WITH cross-talk cancellation use for 2 or 4 speaker setu
ps.
Notice that you get both CMSS3D-Virtual AND CMSS3D-Surround in 4 speaker mode, dependin on what the source material is (stereo or multi-channel). Finally, where the Audigy series had CMSS or CMSS2, where CMSS2 included simulated room acoustics, the X-Fi does simulated room acoustics when in Entertainment mode, but not Game mode. The room acoustics is good for movies and the effect is very similar to Dolby Headphone. In fact, I think the virtual acoustics sounds pretty decent for non-OpenAL/DirectSound3D games that output directly to multiple channels rather than going through 3D audio.
Any more questions?

No Center/Sub from Audigy using Klipsch Promedia 5.1 (analog) - NOT a CMSS/digital output qu

I am receiving no center/sub output from my Audigy Platinum card. I have had the card installed on the same system (P4 3.0/ASUS P4800 Mobo/Win XP Pro SP2) for a couple of years with no problems. I recently began experiencing intermittent loss of my center/sub channel. Since I have not changed the connections in quite some time, I was able to rule out an improper output connection. Also, I was able to independently test the speakers themselves and the center and sub are both functioning. Additionally, I switched my Klipsch volume/channel output controller to headphone mode and ran the Creative Speaker diagnostic and I hear four channels (FR/FL/RR/RL) in the headphones (as I do with my front and rear speakers) but I do not receive any signal for the center channel (i.e., no "center channel" speech signal). Based on all of the above, I am certain that the speakers are functioning correctly (I am of course using them in analogue mode), there is no "switch" on the rear of the subwoofer for 2/2., all of my Creative and windows software are configured for 5. audio. I have uninstalled and reinstalled all of the creative drivers and software (using Driver Cleaner Pro in Windows Safe Mode) and reinstalled from my original Audigy CD and then performed a complete Auto Update from the Soundblaster.com site. <Still no center/sub even in diagnostic test!!!!

I want to be clear: I am not confused about CMSS 5. gaming/audio issues; I believe this is purely a soundcard output issue. Despite all the grousing I read about the Creative driver series, I have been most happy with the Audigy Plat card. It has performed extremely well with the Klipsch 5. in gaming, DVD, and audio contexts for several years through numerous driver updates. I know how to configure the settings to get true 5. in any context. However, now I am completely stumped. Is there anything I have overlooked or might try so I do not have to conclude that this great card has just "crapped out" and now needs to be replaced?
Thanks for listening.
Message Edited by whander on 0-23-2005 06:26 AM
Message Edited by whander on 0-23-2005 06:30 AM

Thank you! I had my digital coax connected there with an adapter, but since that can only carry ac-3 and stereo signals im better of using direct 5 chan ( i don?t watch movies on my PC... that?s what the home theater is for) Most games use EAX or some other direct sound, so ill stick with 5. direct analog. who would have thought the digital jack was also for center/sub heh.

Thanks again man!

Headphones: CMSS & 2 spkr vs 5.1 & No C

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