Help - color management issue, sunburns! (with a calibrated monitor)!

I love Lightroom and its workflow, its unlike anything of its kind. However, lately (since I first started using it) I've seen a problem related to color management on my computer (I believe) and hope someone out there can shed some light.
After importing JPG pictures into Lightroom and making modifications to them, I am getting *completely* different results once I export them (as sRGB, as I'll be sharing them via web). All of the pictures are coming much more saturated (for a lack of a better description).
Here is what I am getting (see brief descriptions below each pic): http://www.bachmannphoto.com/test/couple.html
I'd be very curious as to how they are showing up on your (calibrated/uncalibrated) screen(s), but the 1st and 3rd pics are showing up as 'realistic' on my PC, while the middle (exported from Lightroom) is showing up as too much saturation and even reddish push, as though the couple got hit with sunburns.
Another example of this result here: http://www.bachmannphoto.com/test/dog_chair.html. Though in this case, the picture in the middle actually looks better, it doesn't change the fact that I am getting very different output than what I see in Lightroom (or in photoshop without the embedded profile).
I am thinking this is a problem with color management settings on my PC. First guess would have been "monitor calibration"... but as mentioned in the title, I calibrated my monitors (I have two Dell 1905FPs... not great for accurate color representation, but they do the job) repeatedly, using Spyder2 Pro.
What pushes me to think this is the following (represented here http://www.bachmannphoto.com/test/couple_original.html ):
Before making any modifications to the imported sRGB picture - in other words, importing the picture straight from the camera memory card into Lightroom and then exporting it back (again, without making any modifications to it) - the pictures, both the original and the exported which still look the same and are kept sRGB, look completely different in Lightroom then if I was viewing them in a non-color managed software on my PC, such as the default windows picture viewer.
If my LCD panels are properly calibrated, should I not be more or less seeing the same image colors, whether I'm viewing them through windows, or through Lightroom (or Photoshop along with the embedded sRGB profile)? What gives??
Jesse
PS. I *more* than appreciate anyone taking time to respond to this post. I've been up for nights now trying to understand/fix this.
If it's any help, I have the different version (but original and exported) files here:
original file:
http://www.bachmannphoto.com/test/couple_original.JPG
Original file, imported into Lightroom and then exported back out w/o any modifications (sRGB): http://www.bachmannphoto.com/test/couple_lightroom-nomidification_exported_srgb.jpg
Original file, imported into Lightroom, MODIFIED and then exported back out (sRGB):
http://www.bachmannphoto.com/test/couple_lightroom-modified_exported_srgb.jpg

Exiftool reports the original contains the following EXIF tags:
Interoperability Index : R98 - DCF basic file (sRGB)
Interoperability Version : 0100
The nomidification_exported version does not have those lines, but contains the actual sRGB profile:
Profile CMM Type : Lino
Profile Version : 2.1.0
Profile Class : Display Device Profile
Color Space Data : RGB
Profile Connection Space : XYZ
Profile Date Time : 1998:02:09 06:49:00
Profile File Signature : acsp
Primary Platform : Microsoft Corporation
CMM Flags : Not Embedded, Independent
Device Manufacturer : IEC
Device Model : sRGB
Device Attributes : Reflective, Glossy, Positive, Color
Rendering Intent : Perceptual
Connection Space Illuminant : 0.9642 1 0.82491
Profile Creator : HP
Profile ID : 0
Profile Copyright : Copyright (c) 1998 Hewlett-Packard Company
Profile Description : sRGB IEC61966-2.1
Media White Point : 0.95045 1 1.08905
Media Black Point : 0 0 0
Red Matrix Column : 0.43607 0.22249 0.01392
Green Matrix Column : 0.38515 0.71687 0.09708
Blue Matrix Column : 0.14307 0.06061 0.7141
Device Mfg Desc : IEC http://www.iec.ch
Device Model Desc : IEC 61966-2.1 Default RGB colour space - sRGB
Viewing Cond Desc : Reference Viewing Condition in IEC61966-2.1
Viewing Cond Illuminant : 19.6445 20.3718 16.8089
Viewing Cond Surround : 3.92889 4.07439 3.36179
Viewing Cond Illuminant Type : D50
Luminance : 76.03647 80 87.12462
Measurement Observer : CIE 1931
Measurement Backing : 0 0 0
Measurement Geometry : Unknown (0)
Measurement Flare : 0.999 %
Measurement Illuminant : D65
Technology : Cathode Ray Tube Display
Red Tone Reproduction Curve : (Binary data 2060 bytes, use -b option to extract)
Green Tone Reproduction Curve : (Binary data 2060 bytes, use -b option to extract)
Blue Tone Reproduction Curve : (Binary data 2060 bytes, use -b option to extract)
The modified_exported version likewise does not have the interoperability index tag but contains the actual sRGB profile:
Profile CMM Type : Lino
Profile Version : 2.1.0
Profile Class : Display Device Profile
Color Space Data : RGB
Profile Connection Space : XYZ
Profile Date Time : 1998:02:09 06:49:00
Profile File Signature : acsp
Primary Platform : Microsoft Corporation
CMM Flags : Not Embedded, Independent
Device Manufacturer : IEC
Device Model : sRGB
Device Attributes : Reflective, Glossy, Positive, Color
Rendering Intent : Perceptual
Connection Space Illuminant : 0.9642 1 0.82491
Profile Creator : HP
Profile ID : 0
Profile Copyright : Copyright (c) 1998 Hewlett-Packard Company
Profile Description : sRGB IEC61966-2.1
Media White Point : 0.95045 1 1.08905
Media Black Point : 0 0 0
Red Matrix Column : 0.43607 0.22249 0.01392
Green Matrix Column : 0.38515 0.71687 0.09708
Blue Matrix Column : 0.14307 0.06061 0.7141
Device Mfg Desc : IEC http://www.iec.ch
Device Model Desc : IEC 61966-2.1 Default RGB colour space - sRGB
Viewing Cond Desc : Reference Viewing Condition in IEC61966-2.1
Viewing Cond Illuminant : 19.6445 20.3718 16.8089
Viewing Cond Surround : 3.92889 4.07439 3.36179
Viewing Cond Illuminant Type : D50
Luminance : 76.03647 80 87.12462
Measurement Observer : CIE 1931
Measurement Backing : 0 0 0
Measurement Geometry : Unknown (0)
Measurement Flare : 0.999 %
Measurement Illuminant : D65
Technology : Cathode Ray Tube Display
Red Tone Reproduction Curve : (Binary data 2060 bytes, use -b option to extract)
Green Tone Reproduction Curve : (Binary data 2060 bytes, use -b option to extract)
Blue Tone Reproduction Curve : (Binary data 2060 bytes, use -b option to extract)

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Lundberg02 wrote:
is that the hand of God in the picture?
That was a nearly mature tornado forming in Nebraska, and it dissipated at the last moment because at that time the sun went down and the temperature dropped rapidly. I was glad, because I was camping in a travel trailer at the time, and everyone knows trailers attract tornados.
Lundberg02 wrote:
Please explain why and under what circumstances anyone would want to use a device independent profile as a monitor profile, which should be a device dependent profile.
Here's one example, to answer your specific question:
You have a monitor that provides sRGB performance (e.g., via a specific sRGB setting). You judge (and/or ensure via your own calibration) that it provides satisfactory sRGB color accuracy for your needs, so you set the monitor profile to sRGB, which is accurate in this case.
What does this do for you?
Images displayed in Internet Explorer, which assumes your monitor is sRGB regardless of your profile, are now properly color-managed because you have made IE's assumption valid. By the way, Microsoft does not appear to be going to change this behavior any time soon.
Untagged images, considering a majority of untagged images assume sRGB encoding, are displayed properly by apps that just pass them through to the display. Some browsers do this.
sRGB images (the majority) are displayed properly by non-color-managed apps. If you choose to set your preferred working space to sRGB, then your own processed images will display properly using your non-color-managed apps. Such apps include various viewers, the thumbnails in Windows Explorer, etc.
The sRGB IEC61966-2.1 profile is a clean, well-formed color profile and works well in virtually every color-managed application. It's the Windows default, so you can imagine most apps are very well tested with it.
Screen grabs are already in the sRGB color space, so if your working space is sRGB then you gain simplicity and don't have gotchas when mixing screen grabs back into your workflow.
Since the color-gamut is not wide, the distance between adjacent colors in a 24 bit color environment is smaller - the display of gradients looks smoother, and you might not crave 30 bit color quite so much.
There are other subtle advantages as well, simply because so much of software development throughout history has assumed the representation of color images on computers is sRGB. It's akin to "going with the flow".
In short, setting up a soup-to-nuts sRGB system means more images match more often across more applications with a system set up this way. If I'm not mistaken, that's about what the original poster is asking about, which is why RikRamsay's response is not unreasonable.
And there are, of course, some specific disadvantages to doing this.
For one thing, one does not have the direct ability to work with a wider gamut of colors. There are those who wish to work in wider gamut color spaces, have wide gamut monitors, and wide gamut printers. Brighter, better managed colors may well help such a person set his/her work off from the crowd. This is starting to become more and more important in this day and age of better and better wide gamut hardware.
It's not straightforward to set up a system so that its sRGB response is accurate, though it is doable. Can you trust the factory sRGB calibration of a monitor that advertises sRGB response characteristics?
-Noel

Color Management issues

Hi,
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But, the big but, is this;
I need and did have a wysiwyg colour managed work flow right up till SL.
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Thanks in advance.
Regards

Hi,
Have had continual problems with color management not functioning correctly as it did in 10.5.
In SL and Lion, I calibrate the screen, this gives me a screen that looks ok, with neutral whites and reds that display well with the installed application icons.
But, the big but, is this;
I need and did have a wysiwyg colour managed work flow right up till SL.
10.5.8 was the last OS that calibrated to what I see is what I get, colour critically.
I could open an image editor and choose the foreground colour to be R 255 G 0 B 0 and the foreground swatch would display a red, now, I have a orange/yellow.
The display of reds is the most obvious change and inconsistency in imaging editors.
This has been with me through SL and now on upgrading!? to Lion, the same.
There is obviously a non communication/break in colorsyncs ability to manage the .icc process.
The ridiculous thing is, that when the iMac has it's display preference set to Apples supplied default, ie iMac, things display the most correctly, although not that precisely.
So my question is, What is the solution? What can be done to resolve this problem, as I am not the only photographer/designer with this problem, in a colour critical workflow.
The Macs being used are a 2008 iMac, Cinema Display and Macbook Pro core duo.
Any solutions are most welcome.
Thanks in advance.
Regards

LR3 color management issues

Alright, so I'm having some trouble with color spaces and am at the point I'm seeing red and just want to smash my computer. I feel like I understand the basics of color management but for some reason I can't seem to get things to behave. I know certain programs are color managed and can handle different color spaces, and some are not. I will also note that my monitor has been calibrated using a Spyder3Pro.
I like working with sRGB simply because I get the same result on most places on the internet (I know I'm losing gamut but I really don't print too much so it's not a big deal). So I know that LR operates in ProPhoto RGB, the biggest of the main RGB color spaces (sRGB, Adobe RGB, and ProPhoto RGB) and as such shows photos with far more color than can be represented by sRGB. However, whenever I export a photo from LR (be it to JPEG in any of the color spaces, or to edit in PS CS5), the colors are always far more muted than what I see in LR. I have checked the settings in CS5 and even opened the RAW file (with the .xmp editing info) directly in CS5 in ProPhotoRGB and the colors aren't even close to what I see in LR. Additionally I used LR to export the file to JPEG in sRGB, Adobe RGB, and ProPhoto RGB, and when those three files are opened in Photoshop, they look virtually identical. There are minute changes in the histogram between the three files, but they all look the same. However, they appear different when viewed in my browser (Firefox), even though I have set it to color manage. I did notice that there was no color space listed when I looked at the file properties in the Details tab, but the color profile is clearly being embedded as PS asks me if I want to view the image in the working space or the embedded color space of the image. What is going on here?
Screenshot of the same file in LR and PS, being opened in PS using the external editing feature of LR (screenshot pasted and saved in sRGB in PS):
The file in PS converted to sRGB and saved in PS:
The file saved in sRGB from LR:
The file saved in Adobe RGB from LR:
The file saved in ProPhoto RGB from LR:
Additional information that may be useful:
Lightroom 3.6
Camera RAW 6.6
Photoshop CS5.1
Firefox 16.0.1
Monitor calibrated with Spyder3Pro
Windows 7 Professional 64-bit
Thanks,
Reed
EDIT: After further investigation, it appears that Firefox is treating these images as images without a color space, yet somehow Photoshop and Windows Photo Viewer recognize the color space. So I think I have two concerns: 1) why are my photos drastically different between LR and PS, and 2) how are the images being saved from LR lacking the color space information needed by Firefox yet still retaining it for PS?

ReedJ12 wrote:
It must be embedding the profiles somewhere because when I open the JPEGs in CS5, it recognizes that they're not sRGB. I made these simply by going in LR and clicking on the standard Export button. No external plugins have been installed.
Reed
In that case, were the images in the original post, the result of a "save" operation inside CS5? If so, could they have lost their colourspace tagging at that point, due to something in your Photoshop JPG saving settings (or your "save for web and devices" settings)?
That could be quickly confirmed by uploading a (say) ProPhoto exported image, for comparison, as directly exported from LR - that is, which has never been into Photoshop.
You could also compare this youself against the version you uploaded, side by side in PS - if the one that has just come fresh from LR still has its colourspace tagging, and the other has lost its colourspace tagging, then even though the RGB numbers inside the image may be identical, PS will be interpreting the meaning of the numbers differently in each case - and will therefore display them as different, just as colourspace-aware browsers such as IE8 are doing, for other people viewing your examples online.

Color Management Issues Solved in LR 1.1?

Long tempted to switch from Elements 5.0 to LR (or to integrate the two), I have held off because I've read on this forum dozens, probably hundreds, of complaints about LR 1.0 and color management. Some of these questions were clearly from ignorance, I know (such as not understanding the difference between the color space used by monitors and that used by printers). But many other were from sophisticated users all of whom began their comments or questions with "Works perfectly in Photoshop, but in LR ..." See, for example, http://adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx/.3bc41850/39 , which describes difficulty in getting LR to produce acceptable prints. To my mind, LR 1.0 had color management problems even if the highest end users managed to work around them. I don't want to buy into problems, not being a sophisticated user yet myself. So here is my queston: Does LR 1.1 solve these problems? That is, does LR 1.1 work as easily, or almost as easily, as Photoshop (say with the HP b9180, which has a PS plugin)? Thanks in advance.

The problem is that lightroom is somehow throwing the default profile that is set in colorsync into the mix. Which is something that Photoshop is not doing. So any printer profiles built by printing a target with PS is not going to be accurate when printed through Lightroom unless the default profile for you printer is Generic RGB Profile or something close.
Here is what I have posted elsewhere about my discovery of this issue.
I discovered something today that just might be the answer to the color printing problems from Lightroom.
First of all, all prints from PS and Lightroom was done with the same color management workflow with the profiles set in the application and color management turned off in the printer driver. This was to a Canon iPF9000.
Started when I tried to print from a new MacPro with Lightroom. Colors were not right.
Went to the G5 and printed from lightroom same file same settings same profile, color was correct.
Printed same file same setting same profile from PS on the MacPro. Color was correct.
So started printing and saving as PDF from the print dialog. Open the PDF files in Acrobat and checking embedded profile with Pitstop.
Here are the results.
Lightroom on Macpro: iPF9000 Paper profile. This was much darker with way to much yellow.
Photoshop of Macpro: Generic RGB
Lightroom on G5: sRGB v1.20 (Canon)
I had uninstall the sRGB v1.20 (Canon) profile from the colorsync folder on the MacPro. Added sRGB v1.20 (Canon) back in and guess what. sRGB v1.20 (Canon) in the PDF now generated from Lightroom. Print to the printer from Lightroom on the MacPro and it now printed correct.
Now got to thinking were does Lightroom get this (sRGB v1.20 (Canon) profile from. So checked in the Colorsync utility to see what the default profile for the iPF9000 is and sure enough it was sRGB v1.20 (Canon). Ok so what happens if I change the default profile in the Colorsync utility to Adobe RGB. Now guess what the Lightroom generated PDF now shows Adobe RGB as the embedded profile.
PS printed to PDF showed Generic RGB profile no matter what I set as the default profile in the Colorsync Utility.
Clearly Lightroom behaves differently when printing when a different default profile is selected for a printer. On Windows this could be the same as one can set in the printer properties (at least for the iPF9000) the default profile to automatic or set a different default profile manually.
This raises an interesting question as to what is really going on with print files set to a printer. Especially printers with much larger gamuts than sRGB.
Could this be the source of the strange Lightroom printing problems?
I do know when I have tried to make a profile from a printed target in LR I could not get accurate color. But the profile generated for a target printed in PS works fine in LR.

Bridge CS4 color management only works with GPU active

When I turn hardware acceleration off (by selecting software rendering in Bridge advanced preferences) Bridge color management disappears and on my wide gamut display I get cartoon color thumbnails indicating that CM isn't working. With GPU rendering on and Bridge restarted, CM works as it should.
It seems that Photoshop requires hardware acceleration with the "color compensation" option checked under the Performance/Enable OpenGL Drawing/Advanced settings preference.
Is color management now only functional with OpenGL acceleration enabled? I can find no help documentation for the advanced OpenGL Drawing settings. What a huge can of hardware worms this is turning out to be.

I wouldn't think that Bridge needed the GPU for CM, yet bypassing the GPU turns off CM in this installation.
I'm still confused about what you indicate in the Photoshop CS4 thread on OpenGL.
Chris Cox, "A few questions about OpenGl acceleration" #14, 11 Nov 2008 7:31 pm
I interpret your comment as suggesting that disabling color compensation in the PS CS4 GPU debugging features should disable CM in Photoshop, but it doesn't, it just makes it unreliable in displaying images post profile conversion in my tests. I'm probably missing some nuance here.

LR 2 color management printing woes with B9180

I have been going nuts trying to get accurate prints with LR2 and the HP B9180 (I use a Mac with Leopard 10.5). When I set "Managed by Printer" in LR2, and then click on Print to open up the B9180 print driver dialog, under the "Color Matching" tab the "Vendor Matching" option is selected, and there is no way to change this since it's grayed out. I thought Vendor Matching means that color management is turned off in the printer driver! That would mean there is no profile selected for the print.
Alternatively, if I choose a color profile in LR2, and then click the Print button, under the "Color Matching" tab the "Colorsync" option is selected and there is no way for me to unselect it and choose Vendor Matching instead since the selections are grayed out. In that case it seems I am double profiling.
Do I misunderstand how this is supposed to work? I have a calibrated display. I wish the B9180 just has a button that said "no color management" but it doesn't....
Thanks,
Peter

DYP,
Nope using home made profiles using Spyder3Print.
I don't need to touch the ColorSync Utility.
From what I have read about 10.5 printing and the HP, when you are using an application to color manage, 10.5 will turn off color management in the printer driver automatically. So all I do, is select the profile in Lightroom, and set the paper type/quality the same as when I created the profile (I have a preset in the print dialogue for this) and then print.
Using the CU work around is a pain and it should not have to work like that. Changing profiles should not have to go through hoops and using a bunch of different apps just to print.
Have a look at Russell Brown's video as well. It's linked on my DPReview reply.
Shrey
PS The other way of printing with profiles on the B9180 is to add the custom profiles in the Custom Paper option in the HP Printer Utility. Then in Lightroom select Managed by Printer and in the printer dialogue, select the custom paper and either AdobeRGB or ColorSmart. That worked well while Lightroom's printing in 1.4 was messed up.

Illustrator cc crashes on start up win 8 - pantone color manager issues?

I was at a clients office yesterday, installed Pantone Color manager on my laptop (I have Adobe Illustrator CC) and on their desktop (They have latest copy of Illustrator, but not cc, it's disc). And imported some pantone swatches into illustrator on both machines.
Since I shut down my laptop on leaving their office and restarted, Illustrator freezes on start up. Their machine is ok.
I have uninstalled and reinstalled illustrator. I checked that it wasn't win updates that is causing this and ran an update. I'm stuck now, still no solution, I'm travelling abroad and I need illustrator! Could anyone walk me through any possible solutions?

I selected the swatch card that I needed using the Pantone Colour Services manager application - I selected a Pantone Textiles colour card - same colour ref guide as my paper swatch book - because it doesn't come as standard with the software, you then choose which Adobe application you want to export it to following the instructions here http://pantone.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1803
In ordder to do this, I installed Pantone Color Services manager from the pantone website - I note that this software seemed to be bundled with X-Rite Services Device manager which installed at the same time. Despite removing this and reinstalling and also trying to use Windows system restore (which didn't work and threw up an error message saying it could not restore) the application still does not launch. Do I need to go into the registry and alter anything?

Help - color management issue, sunburns! (with a calibrated monitor)!

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