Is DNG "universal"?

I convert all my raws to dng. It saves around 33% of disc space and Adobe claim it to be "Universal"
However, I still use Rawshooter (Bought out by Adobe to base Lightroom on)
Conversions from my Canon 5d mk1 work perfectly however conversions (to DNG) from other cameras do not, so how can DNG be "universal"
How can I get around the problem as I still prefer Rawshooter to LR for initial PP and cropping (I do have LR2 and use it for other parts of my PP workflow)

Just to be clear, Adobe has never promoted DNG as a "Universal" raw file format...it's promoted as being a publicly documented, freely available raw file format. The way in which 3rd parties use DNG can vary.
In the case of Rawshooter, they only adopted DNG partially. Rawshooter can only open a DNG for a camera it already understood–meaning that whether or not the raw proprietary raw file was converted to DNG, it supported that raw file. Other DNGs from cameras it didn't already support are not supported by Rawshooter. This is the responsibility of the 3rd party by only partially supporting DNG.

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Is DNG a universal raw format?

I have DNG files converted from both a Nikon D70 and a D80. Now, ACDSee Pro 2.0 reads the former, but not the later (original Nikon NEFs, as well as the DNGs). Also, for example, Aperture's specs state that it only reads DNGs from cameras it already supports.
I thought that DNG is a universal format, in that that it doesn't matter from which format it was converted. Otherwise, what's the point of it?
So where is the problem in this case / in the DNG format or the poor implementation of software packages?

Adobe developed the DNG format with the intention of it being somewhat of a "universal" format. Something that could be used to "standardize" images from different cameras. Adobe has published the DNG specifications in an attempt to promote the format as such. But different companies have the option of implementing DNG support differently. I am not enough of a programmer to discuss all that is involved. I do know that other companies support DNG only for the cameras that they already support.
When RawShooter was still in existence they proudly announced that they were supporting DNG, but only for the cameras they already supported. I argued with them, stating that it was supposed to be a universal format. Their reply was (essentially) that Adobe didn't understand all the ramifications.
As far as Photoshop and ACR are concerned, the DNG format is pretty much universal. How other companies choose to implement the support is left entirely to that company's discretion.

Is the DNG format really 'universal'?

I have just aquired a new camera - the Panasonic GX7. Unfortunately Aperture does not yet support its RAW files.
As a workaround I downloaded the Adobe DNG converter in the belief that the DNG format could be imported into Aperture. The converter lists a range of output options from Camera RAW 2.1 up to 7.1. None work with Aperture 3.4.5.
It would seem that DNG compatibility is very dependant on the original source file. DNGs from some cameras work in Aperture while others do not. I know some people blame Apple for this but surely the problem is that the DNG format is not standard. A standard PDF can be read by any PDF reader but it seems there is no such thing as a 'standard DNG'. Is this a reasonable assessment of the situation?
cheers
Bruce

I think, you got it right, Bruce.
The dng generated from a camera can be camera-specific and Aperture does not support them all: see the footnotes in this document.
Apple - Aperture - Technical Specifications - RAW Support
Aperture also lets you work with most DNG files.1
Aperture works with most DNG files generated from cameras that support this format and with DNG files generated by the Adobe DNG Converter with the “Convert to Linear Image” option turned off.
It appears to be random, if Adobe's dng converter will work. I used to be able to convert the raw from my camera to a dng that Aperture can import, but since the last update to dng-converter does that no longer work. The older dngs are fine.
Regards
Léonie

I bought a canon EOS Rebel T5i. It came with photoshop elements 11. PS won't open my C2 raw files and says my camera isn't supported by the software I have downloaded 7.4 dng converter and I still can't open the files. What do I need to do?

I bought a canon EOS Rebel T5i. It came with photoshop elements 11. PS won't open my C2 raw files and says my camera isn't supported by the software I have downloaded 7.4 dng converter and I still can't open the files. What do I need to do?

You need camera raw 8.4 for your camera, if it’s Digital Rebel T5 EOS 1200D EOS Kiss X70. It is not compatible with PSE11; so it’s a bit odd if that software was bundled with the camera except that it will work with jpegs. I suggest you download and install the free Adobe DNG converter to convert your CR2 files to the Adobe universal Raw format and the DNG files will editable in PSE11(keep your originals as backups and for use in the camera manufactures software)
Mac download (.dmg file) click here DNG Converter 8.4
You can convert a whole folder of raw images in one click. See this quick video tutorial:
You Tube click here for DNG Converter tutorial

Aperture won't import DNG files: Panasonic Lumix FZ28

Well, i went to a seminar on aperture and got all excited to use it, downloaded the trial and discovered that it won't import my camera's RAW files (even though it came out 2 years ago and is supported in PhotoShop)
I've tried various way of creating DNG files with DNG Converter (the one that works with PS CS3) but Aperture doesn't recognize those, either. (linear, non linear etc) (Will the CS4 converter do the job?)
Is there anything else I should be trying? Have any of you had success with the same camera and what do you do?
Thanks for any help you can offer.
Elizabeth

Yep, that's what I discovered and it's the whole problem with the RAW files, but what about DNG?
I thought converting to DNG might allow them to be accessed: so you're telling me that I'm out of luck and have to stick with PhotoShop?
That dng is not a universal format recognized by Aperture?
I appreciate your input
Elizabeth

Questions About DNG

1) Is the Current DNG 5.5 only useable in CS4?
2) I notice that support for cameras is shown for both RAW and DNG. Since DNG is supposed to be universal, what is the down side of using DNG to run raw files from cameras such as the Canon 7D? Should I be using DNG 5.5 on CS3 for this camera? An earlier one?
3) What would be the observable differences between a supported and non-supported when converting to DNG?
Message was edited by: Hudechrome

1) Is the Current DNG 5.5 only useable in CS4?
The DNG converter is a stand-alone program, i.e. it is running without CS, LR or Bridge. 5.5 is the version of the program code (click on About in the dialog). The "usability" is determined rather by the version of the DNG format: older versions of CS do not support features, which have been introduced in newer DNG format versions.
The DNG format can be selected in the DNG converter dialog: Change Preferences -> Compatibility.
As the Canon7D does not require any new features, the resulting DNG file can be used in CS3 or even in CS2, even if the conversion specifies a higher DNG version.
3) What would be the observable differences between a supported and non-supported when converting to DNG?
If the DNG converter does not support a camera, it will not process the file. The speciality in this particular case is, that the 7D is not mentioned as "supported", because the support is preliminary.
It's file extension is supported but the 7D is not. Therefore conversions are possible
The file name extention is irrelevant. All newer Canon raw files have the extention CR2; that does not mean, that the camera is supported by ACR or the DNG converter.
We are seeing a magenta cast to clipped highlights from the 7D in ACR
Try reducing "Blacks".
the files from the 7D appear noisy, even the iSO 200 files
The 7D is about as noisy as the 50D at low ISOs, and less noise from 1600. However, all copies exhibit a vertical banding. It depends on the copy, at which intensity and how strong it appears. I have not seen it with ISO higher than 400, and it occurs usually in the 9th and 10th stop of the dynamic range, i.e. you have to increase the intensity a lot (exposure, brightness, fill light) in order to see it (and blacks = 0).
Here are two samples for the banding, 100% crops:
Gabor

DNG files created from Fujifilm FinePix E-900 .RAF raw files

I'm having a problem in creating DNG files from my Fujifilm FinePix E-900 camera .RAF raw files on my Mac (Mac OS X 10.6.4). The DNG files are recognized correctly in Adobe software (Photoshop CS4, Bridge, Lightroom 3) but not by any Apple software (including Aperture 3.0).
I've used Adobe DNG Converter 6.1, Photoshop CS4, and Lightroom 3 to create these non-linear DNG files. As a point of reference, I've used the same settings to create DNG files from Kodak .KDC raws files that Apple also doesn't support, but these DNG files (created from the .KDC raw files) show up just fine in Aperture 3.0.
The one thing I find unusual about the .DNG files created from the Fujifilm FineFix E-900 .RAF raw files is that when I do a 'Get Info' on these files, the image dimensions of these .DNG files always shows up as 0 x 0. (The image dimensions should be listed as 3488 x 2616.)
So I'm wondering if there is something wrong (a bug maybe) on how these files are being converted to the DNG file format using Adobe DNG Converter 6.1, Photoshop CS4 or Lightroom 3 on a Mac.
Peter

Hi Frank, you need camera Raw 7.4 which is only available for PSE11. Consider upgrading or wait for PSE12 to be launched soon. If you regularly shoot raw try Lightroom with PSE10 as your external editor.
Alternatively, download and install the free Adobe DNG converter to convert your raw files to the Adobe universal Raw format and the files will open in PSE10 (keep your originals as backups and for use in the camera manufactures software)
Windows download (.exe file) click here DNG Converter 8.1
Mac download (.dmg file) click here DNG Converter 8.1
You can convert a whole folder of raw images in one click. See this quick video tutorial:
You Tube click here for DNG Converter tutorial

Comments about Aperture and DNG

I bought a copy of Aperture a while ago and recently purchased a computer capable of running it. So now that I am becoming acquainted with it I have some comments for Apple:
• I am amazed by the flexibility of the interface, and at the same time surprised by what has NOT been provided for.
—for example: in a dual monitor setup I can't dedicate one for full screen viewing of the selected image in every mode with all the normal panels for adjustments, metadata, projects, importing, thumbnails, etc on the second monitor. And what display customization is available is not sticky—it keeps reverting back to some default!
• Image display quality is superb, better than any of the Adobe products (including LightRoom) or any of the raw converters I have used (several). If print quality is as good it will be a significant advantage for Aperture.
• I am using OS 10.49 and A 1.53, yet I am still having problems with correct display of layered 16 bit photoshop files. Some do display correctly, but many are distorted and scrambled, and some display only an alpha channel.
• Last, and this will end my relationship with Aperture for now and probably forever, is a lack of universal support for DNG files (current support for DNG is restricted to proprietary RAW formats Aperture does support). What on earth is Apple thinking? The whole point of DNG is to remove the need for proprietary support by providing a universal open format. Aperture does not support my current camera. While that is not a surprise to me, the lack of universal support for DNG is.
I believe this must be a marketing decision, and a bad one at that. Apple needs to get a grip: Adobe owns this market. Aperture is a weak and marginal player. If Apple insists on playing this kind of game they will shoot themselves in the foot—and probably already have.
I am aware of some workarounds for specific cameras including mine, but the real issue is the lack of universal support for DNG. Without it Aperture, whatever its other virtues, is sunk. A pro would be a fool to make Aperture the center of their workflow if they were not confident of some universal means of working with raw files from whatever camera or back they might use in the future. Without this universal support Apple basically has veto power over what hardware I might choose in the future. This is a completely untenable position for me, and I would bet for most pros.
Too bad. Aperture shows much potential otherwise.
Mark Muse
MacPro Intel, dual G4 silverdoors, G3 iBook, etc. Mac OS X (10.4.9)

Aperture only supports DNG from cameras that it supports the RAW file from, so your Panasonic DNGs are not supported. What you are seeing is simply the embedded JPEG that flicks on until Aperture realizes it is not a supported file.

Aperture won't import DNG files with my adjustments from LR

When I export my images from LR2 as DNG and import them into Aperture3, although they look fine in the import window, when I view them in projects they have lost all the modifications I put into them.
I then tried to import them as TIFF 16 which worked but the image size quadrupled and I'm loath to use TIFF 8 due to the loss of information.
Am I doing something wrong? I thought DNG was a universal format so why can't Aperture recognise the adjustments and modifications?

Edits in LR do not modify the DNG/raw other than embedding metadata that "calls out" editing instructions that would, in any case, be unique to Lightroom. As someone else noted, their may be no equivalent in Aperture for a particular LR edit. DNG may be a universal format but the metadata that's written to a DNG could be proprietary.
I'm afraid the only way to retain your LR edits in Aperture will be to export the data in a format that actually renders your edits to the image. If file size is a concern, I would suggest either 16bit Photoshop "PSD" or 16bit compressed TIFF. I would also suggest using AdobeRGB as your export profile/working space as I believe this is the internal color space of Aperture...I would assume Aperture is intelligent enough to honor tagged/embedded profiles but....on the other hand...I wouldn't assume!
Terry

Can I re-convert dng files to psd files (or another format that can be used in Adobe Touch)?

I am using LR 4.1, CS6, on a PC running Windows 7. Creative Cloud will accept dng's, but Adobe Touch will not. I'd hate to have to re-save lots of photos one at a time. (I'm not generally all that happy with dng format--it makes some files unreadable elsewhere, and any work done on a dng results in its being saved as a psd anyway.)
Thanks for any ideas.
Gail

1. Proprietary formats such as NEF and CR2 are secret.
2. The universal DNG is an open format.
By all means stick to the raw files produced by your camera if you intend to do your editing in the software provided by your camera manufacturer. If you do all your editing in Adobe software DNG, imho is a better workflow choice.
For archiving purposes I would sooner trust Adobe for future support on DNG than individual camera makers who are known to change their raw formats. Also the benefit of embedded data and no sidecar files, plus fast load data (introduced for DNG’s in Lightroom 4) are clear advantages
If you want to use a tablet with Photoshop Touch tools such as layers, selection tools, adjustments, and filters then a PSD exported from DNG in light room will almost certainly produce an optimum sized file. Tiff will also support layers but the file size will usually be much bigger.

Placing DNG files for Mockup Design in Indesign

Hi there
I am a magazine designer where i get 400-500 photo selections from my photographer. We have finally upgraded to CS5 (yes yes took our time). I used to be able in CS2 Indesign place the DNG files for mockup of the pages, but now in CS5 it says: "Cannot place this file. No filter found for requested operation." Is there a filter available to do this or do I need to convert all of the DNG files to jpg to use in the mockups?

The ability to place Camera Raw images directly into InDesign has been a much requested but exceptionally highly-debated feature request since Photoshop started support for Camera Raw. DNG is actually just a special, TIFF-like standardized version of a raw image format that was an attempt to provide a universal container for common features of the various camera vendors' “raw” formats plus plus a common method of storing the vast amount of the individual camera vendors' and model-dependent “secret sauce” used to decode the raw image data for creating more industry-standard TIFF, JPEG, etc. images.
In many respects, a raw image is the digital equivalent of analog photography's concept of a negative, albeit not reversed in tonalilty and/or color. A significant amount of processing is obtain a usable image from raw image data. When shooting in JPEG mode with a digital camera, this processing is done in-camera and includes significant noise reduction, sharpening, color adjustment, and brightness / contrast adjustments depending upon the cameras' capabilities. All that processing is postponed to Photoshop's Camera Raw feature (or the vendors' own host computer-resident conversion software) when you elect to get raw-only images out of your digital cameras. A very large number of professional and amateur photographers who shoot raw mode always process their own images to TIFF or JPEG before submitting for any editorial review or layout. Trying to directly place the DNG file's raw image data, even for mockups, is like trying to do mockups using the negatives in the old days. Exactly what default settings would you use to use these images and how meaningful would the visual representation of those default settings be?
I have been involved with InDesign ever since the first prereleases of InDesign 1.0 (not CS1) and I don't recall any support ever given for direct placement of DNG or any other raw image format. I don't even know of any third party InDesign plug-ins that ever did that! InDesign itself was never not distributed with the libraries and data used for such conversions.
However, there are many cameras that have a mode by which both a raw image and a camera-created JPEG file are output to the camera's memory card. Perhaps you had some directories of images that had these dual image files. (Also, there are indeed only a handful of very specialized programs that produce DNG files directly. Most professional camera manufacturers have elected to continue to output proprietary “secret sauce” image formats. To get DNG files from such file formats, you need to either run a batch process to convert to DNG or perhaps Adobe's own DNG converter that can convert entire directories of raw image files to DNG.)
- Dov

If I convert NEF into DNG the photo looks different

If I convert a NEF into a DNG, the DNG looks underexposed in comparison with the NEF. Why is this happening? I understood that it would be better to convert my photos into DNG because it is a universal RAW format but, it doesn't look anymore as I saw it on my camera.

Corina_PC wrote:
Why is this happening?
Because the preview (jpeg, embedded) in the DNG is a re-rendering based on Adobe defaults. It's not the same embedded preview that came in your NEF (which was created, initially anyway, in the camera).
To better understand, it helps to know how the story unfolds from the beginning:
When you press the shutter release, the camera takes the raw image data from the sensor, folds in the camera settings, crunches it through the Nikon image processing "engine", and compresses the result into a jpeg, which it subsequently stores (along with the raw data) in the raw NEF file, and shows you on the back of the camera, etc.
When you convert to DNG, Lightroom does something similar: it takes the raw image data from the raw file, ignores most of the camera settings (except, for example, white balance), crunches it through the Adobe image processing "engine", and compresses the result into a jpeg, which it subsequently stores in the raw DNG file, and shows you via OS codecs or in ACR, or Lr...
So, bottom line, you are just seeing the difference between current renderings of Nikon vs. Adobe. If you edit the NEF in NX2, the preview will be updated when you save the NEF. If you edit the DNG in ACR or Lr, you can also update the preview to reflect the current edits.
etc...
Hope this helps,
Rob.

DNG & Camera Manf. JPG color conversions

IF, a Camera Manf. had a camera that outputs to DNG ... could they imbed in the DNG file ... the "equivelent" of LR "pre-sets" for "there" JPG Color conversion.
* So, In LR at a click of a Pre-set listing you could see what the Camera Manf. JPG out of the camera would be like. (if you "would have" shot this DNG in JPG) ... and then you could do a compair.
Or maybe you would "just" run it as a choice on import ... as a starting point, or when in a rush a result.
* Just curious ... could this be done?
Is it only me, or could this be a useful productivity feature for LR.
p.s. I do get the fact that you could make your own pre-sets for your camera.

> "being a designer/distributor myself you are always trying to find ways to make your product (output) different and exclusive ... so yes, having a Generic DNG and making "my" product/output a commodity would not be my first choice either".
I used to help design large, complicated, multi-supplier computer systems. I sometimes got involved with helping to procure products.
The suppliers would try to make us enthusiastic about their special features. If we procured their products, we would often simply lose those features under an abstraction layer of software - they were unwanted! We needed interchangeable components. Call it "commodity" if you like - but I don't really agree with that term here. "Commodity" to me implies that it doesn't matter which you choose. "Interchangeable" still leaves other factors to be taken into account.
If Nikon adopted DNG (chuckle!) we wouldn't really claim that a D40 and D80 and D200 and D2Xs were "commodity"! They would still be high quality high value differentiated products.
In fact, camera manufacturers are pretty foolish if they adopt such an attitude. Within weeks of camera launch, all the major raw converter suppliers have reverse-engineered the raw files and camera details enough to be able to perform high quality raw conversions. All essential aspects of the specification are known, and sometimes even published by 3rd parties!
Who do the camera manufacturers think they are hiding information from? Answer: "from 3rd party software companies whose mission is, in effect, to make the images from the camera look as good as possible"! How stupid can camera manufacturers be?
DNG still has ways for camera manufacturers to hold what Adobe call "secret sauce". There may well be limitations in the current specification of DNG that causes problems for some manufacturers - Hasselblad-Imacon apparently had problems. But most manufacturers almost certainly have no such problems - and Pentax shows what CAN be done by a camera manufacturer, (the one who once tried to promote the idea of a universal lens mount), that cares about its users and sees the way the world is moving.

Cannot open DNG files in CS3 or Lightroom?

When I convert RAW files from my new DMC-LF1 camera to DNG, I can not open the files in CS3 or Lightroom. Isn't DNG supposed to be a universal format?
I do not have problems with converted DNG files from my Nikon cameras.

I use the free Adobe DNG Converter vers. 8.1 der supporter mit Panasonic DMC-LF1. I just downloaded this version and now am able to open my Panasonic DNGs in Lightroom, but not in CS3. There are no problems opening my Nikon DNGs in both programs.
This certainly leaves the problem about DNG as a universal format lasting far out in the future, doesn't matter what camera the file came from.
Den 29/12/2013 kl. 15.58 skrev Sulaco:
Re: Cannot open DNG files in CS3 or Lightroom?
created by Sulaco in Photoshop General Discussion - View the full discussion
As far as I know DNG is supposed to be standardised format. What are you using to convert the RAW files to DNG?
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Pentax k-5 raw: dng or pef?

Hi there,
I used to shoot raw (=pef) with my Pentax K-5 and import/process with Aperture (3.4.5=current).
Just out of curiosity I changed to DNG format in the Pentax. When those raw shots are imported and processed, the color correction is SIGNIFICANTLY different from the one for PEF raw shots (much darker, more contrast). Anyone noticed something similar? WIthout checking with color test cards or the like, I'd say pef get treated correctly/better than dng...

I think you've just about answered your own question. Go back to PEF!
I'm using Sony cameras now but shot with Pentax for several years. During that time I too experimented with in-camera DNG. At first, it seemed like a great idea — one universal format that future-proofed my raw files. Well, it didn't turn out that way. For one thing, the big camera makers (Canon, Nikon, Sony) don't support DNG: they use their own proprietary formats and will continue to do so for the forseeable future. But the less common formats (like PEF) are still supported by all raw converters like Aperture and Lightroom. DNG files caused me way more problems than PEF ever did. Some of the programs I worked with at that time (Bibble Pro comes to mind) didn't even support DNG, for reasons that they defended on their website. And I too had the experience you've had, of DNG files being rendered a bit differently. I thought that wasn't supposed to happen but it did.
Now I save my Sony .ARW files. I have no intention of converting them to DNG in the future. My sense is that, with no major camera manufacturer supporting DNG, it's really got no future.
Good luck.
Will

Is DNG "universal"?

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