Is pre-fader metering in Logic Express possible?

The manual says:
"Activation of Audio > Pre-Fader Metering ensures that the level displayed by the level meters is measured pre fader..."
But I don't have this option in Logic Express 7.2.3 - is this just me, or is it a manual misprint for a feature only available for Logic Pro?
Cheers
Powerbook G4 12 1.5GHz 512MB, iMac G3 400MHz 320MB   Mac OS X (10.4.10)   Logic Express 7.2.3

Logic Pro only.
"Express" = very limited version.
Cheers

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  • Levels and pre-fader metering

    In the past I had always presumed the channel fader controlled the volume level of a softsynth. I know now that it obviously does not. It simply acts as a "faucet," so to speak. Meaning that increasing the fader level simply allows more of the synth's signal to pass.
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    And in keeping with this method, as far as automation is concerned, would I be correct in assuming track volume should be automated via the instrument level?
    I'm trying to keep all of this in the context of how it would be done in a studio with "real" instruments. Where the volume level is the volume level and if you want it louder you play harder or you turn up your amp. You want it softer you play your instrument softer.
    I should add that this whole question/conundrum came up after I started recording with pre fader metering enabled and was quite surprised to see just how easy it is to clip a track (remembering of course that as long as no clipping is occuring at the master output I'm NOT actually clipping).

    I don't know where all this "fader fear" is coming from.
    In DSP terms, making something louder or quieter is simply a really simple DSP calculation. It doesn't matter whether you turn you softsynth down 3dB, or turn the fader down 3dB, the end result is exactly the same.
    The faders are there for easy controlling of levels. It's why mixers were invented and designed this way.
    I think these days someone reads a post on some esoteric audio forum about how their mix was so much better when they left the fader at 0dB in some obscure DAW back in the 90's, and translate that into "I must never use faders" or "I must never EQ" or "I must effectively work out my mix beforehand by my mic choice and positioning so all the signals magically combine into an artistic mix."
    I'm trying to keep all of this in the context of how it would be done
    in a studio with "real" instruments. Where the volume level is the
    volume level and if you want it louder you play harder or you turn
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    You completely lost me here. Learning about gain staging is Elementary Audio Engineering Class 2 (the one afer the "what is a signal", and "what is a transducer").
    You set the level of your recording device or mixer's input depending on the item you are recording, so the natural sound of whatever your source is corresponds to some nominal level for your recorder. It doesn't just magically happen on its own.
    If you're recording an instrument that doesn't put out much sound level, you use the mic preamp to boost the signal to an appropriate recording level. And if you're recording Concorde taking off, you adjust your preamp, probably turning it down or padding the signal, again so it fits the range of your recorder.
    Softsynths can put out a lot of level, and many preset designers don't pay much attention to volume levels in their patches. In addition, when you play a patch polyphonically, you're mixing together multiple signals (each of the notes you are playing) so you end up with higher levels still. It's good practice to pull down the output of the synth if it's too hot, but generally speaking, and avoiding getting into any "levels in Logic" complexities here, using the fader in Logic is exactly the same process.
    Faders don't bite. Use 'em.

  • Pre Fader Metering Query...

    Hello to all,
    I've been following a couple of threads recently and the topic of Pre Fader Metering has come up in regards to the level of the final stereo Output. I would like a little more clarification on this.
    My individual track levels often times are in the "red" Pre Fader, but that seemingly never has anything to do with my final stereo output level; it's my Post Fader level of each track that affects it.
    How, if at all, does the Pre Fader level affect the final stereo output? Since Logic has 32-bit floating point architecture, isn't there a ton of headroom on individual track level and its like impossible to really overload/clip?
    Thanks in advance for any insight on this.
    M-DAY

    Yeah - sorry for the headrush, that thread was a doozy!
    Yes, the same issues occur on for plugins in any audio path - if they use a fixed-point implementation, like for instance some Waves plugins do, or have low input headroom, then you can be distorting the audio through the input stage before the plugin is even doing anything, if you send in high or over-0dB values.
    It is quite posible to clip the outputs slightly without really hearing much - the ear is used to small amounts of distortion, but you are damaging and changing the audio by doing so. Some people like this effect and even use it regularly.
    Personally, there is a very good argument for keeping mix levels way below the 0dB point - 24-bit audio is fine for this, you don't lose resolution by turning the volume down, which is a popular misconception.
    And any distortion you add into the chain, make sure it's introduced and controlled by an artistic decision, not a side-effect of not understanding what's happening...

  • Pre-fader TRIM in logic?

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    In the Logic>Helper> plug in list, you will find "Gain" you can use this to do what you want. It will make sure that no peaking will happen going into the plugin.
    Although many would dispute this doesn't matter as the logic mixer is 32 bit therefore has head room way above 0dB. I dunno myself and think it's worth keeping those levels down.
    It also makes plugins behave more as you'd expect if the level going into them is reasonble. It's hard to stop a compressor over compressing if the level going into it is too high etc.

  • Pre-fader metering

    How many of you guys make use of pre-fader metering? Is it recommended?
    I noticed that as soon as I turned it on a lot of my channels clipped and that I actually had to sort that out internally with a lot of the AU instruments, like RMX.
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    Thanks.

    and it shows clipping,
    Clipping? What, you mean that some of the meters are red, rather than orange? That's not clipping, that's just to indicate you have high levels.
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  • Pre-Fader Metering on Output

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    Any ideas
    Paul
    PS - I love having this on the transport as a button - that and low-latency mode!

    Nope.
    If you put a few channels of noise that feed into Outputs 1+2, set the output fader to -50 or so, and then toggle the Pre-Post metering button, can you get a different reading from it?
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  • Pre/Post Fader Metering. Stumped...

    I'm recording some test tones into Logic so that when I go to another studio next week I can calibrate the gain controls on the other studio's mixing board to be the same as mine (we have the same boards, BTW).
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    Again, with pan law set to -3dB compensated...
    On the left is my audio channel 1 showing my test tone playing back from Logic, metering set to post-fade. Note the peak level (3.4 dB) as well as the visual level of the LED ladder on the meter. Now, compare that to the image on the right, which is the same audio channel 1, but with metering switched to pre-fade. You can see that the peak level is now displayed as 3 dB hotter (6.4 dB), but the LED ladder displays a lower level.
    Furthermore, it's apparently necessary to manually clear the overload indicators to see an updated numerical display after switching from post-fade to pre-fade metering. If this is not done, then when switching to pre-fade metering, the meter's LED ladder display appears to drop but the numerical readout doesn't change (stays at 3.4 dB). This is really confusing to me.
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    -=iS=-

    Hi iSchwartz,
    <quote>o I think I get it now... When the pan is dead center, I'm seeing the peak level of -6.4. When panned left, the meter rises to -3.4, and I guess I'm witnessing the "compensated" part of the panning law. Is that right?</quote>
    Yes indeed that is the compensation.This comes from the analog days when one would pan dead center,and end up having to reduce the level of the signal by about 3dB,when mixing especially.This only occurred on certain consoles,I cannot tell you which ones,I don't remember.I am glad Logic has this feature,as mixing with and without it creates very different results.It depends on what analog console you were brought up with,which way you would like the panning law to behave like.
    It would be interesting to see how the compensation alters the levels throughout the panorama,but that would take a lot of time to test out.Maybe when I have some spare time I'll do some basics like dead center, -10,+10,etc... and see what the levels come out to be.
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  • Pre-fader vs. post-fader metering

    I generally avoid any internal clipping on my virtual instruments by making use of logic's pre-fader metering option, is this really necessary?
    Which is best, mix post fader and forget about internal levels of plug-ins, instruments etc. or always make sure there is no internal clipping?
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    Chance Harper wrote:
    I did a quick experiment to see what the result would be if I overloaded or pushed the internal volume of a plug-in but made sure the output channel wasn't clipping VS. a plug-in that got leveled pre and post.
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    Both of the tracks reached the same RMS level, neither of the two sounded louder than the other.
    The one I pushed up in the plug-in sounded a bit squashed and not as clear or pure as the one that considered the pre and post fader metering. The drums sounded way more defined and clear when ensuring both pre-and post metering wasn't clipping.
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    Message was edited by: Chance Harper
    Message was edited by: Chance Harper
    Message was edited by: Chance Harper
    again, i would agree with BeeJay's original reply to the original post. it's not good practice to let internal levels fly out of control and there's really no good reason to. and i would also agree that keeping levels lower result in better quality mixes.

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    2. User definable instrument icons
    3. Glue tool mixdown
    4. Switching on/off the display of channel strip elements (EQ, inserts, sends, etc.)
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    Message was edited by: Brazeca
    Message was edited by: Brazeca

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