Total ink illustrator
I'd love to open a discussion about ways to work - specifically for print - in illustrator, photoshop and indesign.
I currently use photoshop for photography, illustrator for advert design and indesign for layout. The problem I've got is that illustrator has no means of controlling or apparently even viewing total ink. And because its a CMYK only workflow I cant convert an image that contains +300% ink on output. I've been going round in circles with this, and I find it flabbergasting that theres no way to control total ink on output.
(if anyone has any ideas please let me know!!)
So what is illustrator for? If its for more than creating vector images without transparency or effects - why the hell are these features present. And if using these features can create documents that cant be controlled for pre-press why the hell are there not the tools to manage and control these elements?
Heres example:
Ink controlled image imported into illustrator, with a blue grad set to multiply over the top. Areas of black in the resulting image are >300%.
You can embed the image, rasterise it (which presumably converts it to the working space, and then output with "convert to destination" but read the small print and it wont convert native objects). The only workaround I've found is to export the background to photoshop, do the conversion there, save it as a background and re-import it into illustrator. What!? Please tell me that is not adobes idea of effecient workflow!?
I cant work in RGB because I'll end up with rich blacks. I cant convert in acrobat, because it seems adobe makes it hard (rightly so) to do CMYK-CMYK conversions.
Currently seeing if printing to PDF will work (to see if I can print from one CMYK profile like FOGRA 27, and convert the rastersied artwork to a safe profile).
the problem with that is that they will be doing a cmyk to cmyk conversion - shifting all your colour values. Its a great way to end up with purple skies (and because its happening in the rip a lot of print houses cant even supply you with the correct colour profile). I'm a photographer & designer I want control!
Similar Messages
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Preflight panel - maximal total ink option?
Hello!
I wanted to ask is there somewherein CS5 preflight panel hidden option for checking maximal total ink coverage for images? I didn't find it.
In CS3 there was such option. It sometimes worked strange but it was posible. And there was much more option for checking.
Or i just miss something and it all is there and i just don't see it?
Thanks.I was found it. Don't remember right now where but there was such thing. Not so obvious but it was posible to add option for checking and find in object list total ink for image. I think same was for stroke and fill color max ink. But that was in CS3. I can find it later (some days) if needed.
Separation panel is excelent thing but since it depends on human eyes it's not so "cool" better for workflow would be to make Indesign do that work.
P.S. Oh my...i feel so ashamed. That was acrobat preflight. Sorry sorry sorry. -
Total ink weight for fabrics or suggested color profile.
My client's approved their project and I now have some tradeshow pop-up panels to "convert to CMYK" that will be printed on [some stretchy unknown] fabric. I was wondering if anyone knows the total ink weight for the [stretchy] textiles used for tradeshows or if there is a suggested color profile to use during conversion (or if the real printers actually want this... I had seen that some textile printers actually prefer LAB). In the past I took a guess and used Web Offset Coated and it came out "okay" on Tyvek where something was printed locally, but these are a "stretchy fabric," so I'm guessing something like Web Offset Uncoated? I know the inkjet printers are capable of outputting a lot of ink and do not want the fabric to run or visually bleed though, also I wasn't sure if the tradeshow fabrics are printed with the typical oversized inkjet printers at all.
The "print vendor" (middleman) told me emphatically CMYK conversion was a must, but seemed confused by the question of suggested color profile for converting and could not provide an answer. Unfortunately they're in a deal with my client and the producer of the booth so I'm stuck with them. Also they have not provide the contact info for the producer of the booth. I'd rather not use uncoated because I know there will be a significant loss of vibrance in the printing. So I come to the plethora of knowledge here at Adobe.Okay so I received more feedback from my client. When they were pitched it sounds like the vendor is going to print with Dye Sub. I'm thinking the middleman might not know what he's talking about (since they couldn't tell me which CMYK) so to be safe I'm going to provide the files in RGB (Adobe 1998) AND CMYK (U.S. Web Offset Coated SWOP). That way they can pick and choose. I got U.S. Web Offset Coated as a suggestion off a search for CMYK conversion and Dye Sub on large format printers. Hope this helps someone.
Spelling was edited by: Chris Patterson -
In the MacIntosh-forum recently somebody asked about a way to assess the maximal total ink of an image in Photoshop as in Acrobat or Indesign (probably for prepress-purposes I guess).
http://forums.adobe.com/thread/453851;jsessionid=6EFF73D4ADC319F2F24387656080AF46.node0?ts tart=0
My first idea was iterating a color-picker through every pixel of an image an collecting the values, but that seems to take a forbiddingly long time.
A way that works much quicker is bunching the four CMYK-channels into one channel by Linear Burning them with 25% opacity and evaluating the resulting channel’s histogram.
Of course that means that every histogram-step actually amounts for about 1.5% accumulated ink which still seems acceptable to me.
And with an appropriate Threshold-setting the channel can be adapted to indicate areas of certain minimal ink amounts, though non interactively.
But when working on CMYK-files with more than one additional spot color the rounding errors accumulate pretty strongly as with 6 colors one histogram-step would amount to about 2.3% total ink and the opacity for the calculation of the accumulated-ink-channel – while fine for 4 or 5 colors – has to be rounded to an integer for 6 colors.
This can be worked around to some extent by getting the channels together as layers in a grayscale-document, converting them to one Smart Object and applying the Stack Mode Mean and evaluating the result.
So I have a crude and inexact solution but does any one of You have a better idea on how to get the maximum total ink in an image with more than 4 colors in a reasonable time or does a Script for that already exist?
(If someone’s interested I can post my current Script.)/* creates layers that mark areas that more or less exceed a certain total area coverage;
the more channels the more pronounced the rounding issues;
based on a discussion with j maloney;
2013, use it at your own risk */
if (app.documents.length > 0 && app.activeDocument.mode == DocumentMode.CMYK) {
/* dialog;*/
var dlg = new Window("dialog", "indicate tac of and over", [500,300,750,420]);
/* filter for checking if entry is numeric, thanks to xbytor;*/
numberKeystrokeFilter = function() {
if (this.text.match(/[^\-\.\d]/)) {
this.text = this.text.replace(/[^\d]/g, "")
if (this.text <= 0) {this.text = 100};
if (Number(this.text) > 500) {this.text = "500"}
/* field for entry;*/
dlg.tac = dlg.add("edittext", [15,15,110,35], "300", {multiline:false});
dlg.tac.active = true;
dlg.tac.onChange = numberKeystrokeFilter;
/* warning;*/
dlg.warning = dlg.add("statictext", [13,78,240,150], "please remember to remove or");
dlg.warning2 = dlg.add("statictext", [13,95,240,150], "hide the indicator layers");
/* ok- and cancel-button;*/
dlg.buildBtn = dlg.add("button", [13,45,118,68], "OK", {name:"ok"});
dlg.cancelBtn = dlg.add("button", [128,45,240,68], "Cancel", {name:"cancel"});
/* show dialog;*/
dlg.center();
/* show dialog;*/
var myReturn = dlg.show ();
if (myReturn == true) {
var myDocument = app.activeDocument;
/* get the number of tac;*/
var total = Number (dlg.tac.text);
var myDocument = app.activeDocument;
/* go to top layer;*/
var theVis = myDocument.layers[0].visible;
myDocument.activeLayer = myDocument.layers[0];
if (myDocument.layers[0].iBackgroundLayer == false) {myDocument.layers[0].visible = theVis};
/* set to composite;*/
app.activeDocument.activeChannels = [app.activeDocument.channels[0], app.activeDocument.channels[1], app.activeDocument.channels[2], app.activeDocument.channels[3]];
/* array for printing channels;*/
var theChannels = [0, 1, 2, 3];
/* check for spot colors;*/
for (var m = myDocument.channels.length - 1; m >= 4 ; m--) {
if (myDocument.channels[m].kind == ChannelType.SPOTCOLOR) {
theChannels = theChannels.concat(m)
/* create channel mixer;*/
var channelMixer = theChannelMix(theChannels.length);
channelMixer.name = "total area coverage "+total+"%";
/* work throuh spot channels;*/
for (var n = theChannels.length - 1; n >= 4 ; n--) {
myDocument.selection.load(myDocument.channels[theChannels[n]]);
/* make solid color layer;*/
var idMk = charIDToTypeID( "Mk " );
var desc72 = new ActionDescriptor();
var idnull = charIDToTypeID( "null" );
var ref57 = new ActionReference();
var idcontentLayer = stringIDToTypeID( "contentLayer" );
ref57.putClass( idcontentLayer );
desc72.putReference( idnull, ref57 );
var idUsng = charIDToTypeID( "Usng" );
var desc73 = new ActionDescriptor();
var idType = charIDToTypeID( "Type" );
var desc74 = new ActionDescriptor();
var idClr = charIDToTypeID( "Clr " );
var desc75 = new ActionDescriptor();
var idCyn = charIDToTypeID( "Cyn " );
desc75.putDouble( idCyn, 0.000000 );
var idMgnt = charIDToTypeID( "Mgnt" );
desc75.putDouble( idMgnt, 100.000000 );
var idYlw = charIDToTypeID( "Ylw " );
desc75.putDouble( idYlw, 0.000000 );
var idBlck = charIDToTypeID( "Blck" );
desc75.putDouble( idBlck, 0.000000 );
var idCMYC = charIDToTypeID( "CMYC" );
desc74.putObject( idClr, idCMYC, desc75 );
var idsolidColorLayer = stringIDToTypeID( "solidColorLayer" );
desc73.putObject( idType, idsolidColorLayer, desc74 );
var idcontentLayer = stringIDToTypeID( "contentLayer" );
desc72.putObject( idUsng, idcontentLayer, desc73 );
executeAction( idMk, desc72, DialogModes.NO );
myDocument.activeLayer.name = myDocument.channels[theChannels[n]].name;
myDocument.activeLayer.opacity = Math.ceil(100 / theChannels.length);
myDocument.activeLayer.grouped = true;
myDocument.channels[theChannels[n]].visible = false;
/* create curves layer;*/
var curvesLayer = theCurvesMix (total, theChannels.length);
/* function for channel mixer */
function theChannelMix (channelNumber) {
var thePerc = Math.ceil(100 / channelNumber);
var idMk = charIDToTypeID( "Mk " );
var desc3 = new ActionDescriptor();
var idnull = charIDToTypeID( "null" );
var ref2 = new ActionReference();
var idAdjL = charIDToTypeID( "AdjL" );
ref2.putClass( idAdjL );
desc3.putReference( idnull, ref2 );
var idUsng = charIDToTypeID( "Usng" );
var desc4 = new ActionDescriptor();
var idType = charIDToTypeID( "Type" );
var desc5 = new ActionDescriptor();
var idpresetKind = stringIDToTypeID( "presetKind" );
var idpresetKindType = stringIDToTypeID( "presetKindType" );
var idpresetKindDefault = stringIDToTypeID( "presetKindDefault" );
desc5.putEnumerated( idpresetKind, idpresetKindType, idpresetKindDefault );
var idCyn = charIDToTypeID( "Cyn " );
var desc6 = new ActionDescriptor();
var idCyn = charIDToTypeID( "Cyn " );
var idPrc = charIDToTypeID( "#Prc" );
desc6.putUnitDouble( idCyn, idPrc, 100.000000 );
var idChMx = charIDToTypeID( "ChMx" );
desc5.putObject( idCyn, idChMx, desc6 );
var idMgnt = charIDToTypeID( "Mgnt" );
var desc7 = new ActionDescriptor();
var idMgnt = charIDToTypeID( "Mgnt" );
var idPrc = charIDToTypeID( "#Prc" );
desc7.putUnitDouble( idMgnt, idPrc, 100.000000 );
var idChMx = charIDToTypeID( "ChMx" );
desc5.putObject( idMgnt, idChMx, desc7 );
var idYlw = charIDToTypeID( "Ylw " );
var desc8 = new ActionDescriptor();
var idYlw = charIDToTypeID( "Ylw " );
var idPrc = charIDToTypeID( "#Prc" );
desc8.putUnitDouble( idYlw, idPrc, 100.000000 );
var idChMx = charIDToTypeID( "ChMx" );
desc5.putObject( idYlw, idChMx, desc8 );
var idBlck = charIDToTypeID( "Blck" );
var desc9 = new ActionDescriptor();
var idBlck = charIDToTypeID( "Blck" );
var idPrc = charIDToTypeID( "#Prc" );
desc9.putUnitDouble( idBlck, idPrc, 100.000000 );
var idChMx = charIDToTypeID( "ChMx" );
desc5.putObject( idBlck, idChMx, desc9 );
var idChnM = charIDToTypeID( "ChnM" );
desc4.putObject( idType, idChnM, desc5 );
var idAdjL = charIDToTypeID( "AdjL" );
desc3.putObject( idUsng, idAdjL, desc4 );
executeAction( idMk, desc3, DialogModes.NO );
var idsetd = charIDToTypeID( "setd" );
var desc38 = new ActionDescriptor();
var idnull = charIDToTypeID( "null" );
var ref12 = new ActionReference();
var idAdjL = charIDToTypeID( "AdjL" );
var idOrdn = charIDToTypeID( "Ordn" );
var idTrgt = charIDToTypeID( "Trgt" );
ref12.putEnumerated( idAdjL, idOrdn, idTrgt );
desc38.putReference( idnull, ref12 );
var idT = charIDToTypeID( "T " );
var desc39 = new ActionDescriptor();
var idpresetKind = stringIDToTypeID( "presetKind" );
var idpresetKindType = stringIDToTypeID( "presetKindType" );
var idpresetKindCustom = stringIDToTypeID( "presetKindCustom" );
desc39.putEnumerated( idpresetKind, idpresetKindType, idpresetKindCustom );
var idCyn = charIDToTypeID( "Cyn " );
var desc40 = new ActionDescriptor();
var idCyn = charIDToTypeID( "Cyn " );
var idPrc = charIDToTypeID( "#Prc" );
desc40.putUnitDouble( idCyn, idPrc, 0.000000 );
var idChMx = charIDToTypeID( "ChMx" );
desc39.putObject( idCyn, idChMx, desc40 );
var idMgnt = charIDToTypeID( "Mgnt" );
var desc41 = new ActionDescriptor();
var idCyn = charIDToTypeID( "Cyn " );
var idPrc = charIDToTypeID( "#Prc" );
desc41.putUnitDouble( idCyn, idPrc, thePerc );
var idMgnt = charIDToTypeID( "Mgnt" );
var idPrc = charIDToTypeID( "#Prc" );
desc41.putUnitDouble( idMgnt, idPrc, thePerc );
var idYlw = charIDToTypeID( "Ylw " );
var idPrc = charIDToTypeID( "#Prc" );
desc41.putUnitDouble( idYlw, idPrc, thePerc );
var idBlck = charIDToTypeID( "Blck" );
var idPrc = charIDToTypeID( "#Prc" );
desc41.putUnitDouble( idBlck, idPrc, thePerc );
var idChMx = charIDToTypeID( "ChMx" );
desc39.putObject( idMgnt, idChMx, desc41 );
var idYlw = charIDToTypeID( "Ylw " );
var desc42 = new ActionDescriptor();
var idYlw = charIDToTypeID( "Ylw " );
var idPrc = charIDToTypeID( "#Prc" );
desc42.putUnitDouble( idYlw, idPrc, 0.000000 );
var idChMx = charIDToTypeID( "ChMx" );
desc39.putObject( idYlw, idChMx, desc42 );
var idBlck = charIDToTypeID( "Blck" );
var desc43 = new ActionDescriptor();
var idBlck = charIDToTypeID( "Blck" );
var idPrc = charIDToTypeID( "#Prc" );
desc43.putUnitDouble( idBlck, idPrc, 0.000000 );
var idChMx = charIDToTypeID( "ChMx" );
desc39.putObject( idBlck, idChMx, desc43 );
var idChnM = charIDToTypeID( "ChnM" );
desc38.putObject( idT, idChnM, desc39 );
executeAction( idsetd, desc38, DialogModes.NO );
var idsetd = charIDToTypeID( "setd" );
var desc34 = new ActionDescriptor();
var idnull = charIDToTypeID( "null" );
var ref22 = new ActionReference();
var idLyr = charIDToTypeID( "Lyr " );
var idOrdn = charIDToTypeID( "Ordn" );
var idTrgt = charIDToTypeID( "Trgt" );
ref22.putEnumerated( idLyr, idOrdn, idTrgt );
desc34.putReference( idnull, ref22 );
var idT = charIDToTypeID( "T " );
var desc35 = new ActionDescriptor();
var idBlnd = charIDToTypeID( "Blnd" );
var list10 = new ActionList();
var desc36 = new ActionDescriptor();
var idChnl = charIDToTypeID( "Chnl" );
var ref23 = new ActionReference();
var idChnl = charIDToTypeID( "Chnl" );
var idChnl = charIDToTypeID( "Chnl" );
var idMgnt = charIDToTypeID( "Mgnt" );
ref23.putEnumerated( idChnl, idChnl, idMgnt );
desc36.putReference( idChnl, ref23 );
var idSrcB = charIDToTypeID( "SrcB" );
desc36.putInteger( idSrcB, 0 );
var idSrcl = charIDToTypeID( "Srcl" );
desc36.putInteger( idSrcl, 0 );
var idSrcW = charIDToTypeID( "SrcW" );
desc36.putInteger( idSrcW, 62 );
var idSrcm = charIDToTypeID( "Srcm" );
desc36.putInteger( idSrcm, 62 );
var idDstB = charIDToTypeID( "DstB" );
desc36.putInteger( idDstB, 0 );
var idDstl = charIDToTypeID( "Dstl" );
desc36.putInteger( idDstl, 0 );
var idDstW = charIDToTypeID( "DstW" );
desc36.putInteger( idDstW, 255 );
var idDstt = charIDToTypeID( "Dstt" );
desc36.putInteger( idDstt, 255 );
var idBlnd = charIDToTypeID( "Blnd" );
list10.putObject( idBlnd, desc36 );
desc35.putList( idBlnd, list10 );
var idLefx = charIDToTypeID( "Lefx" );
var desc37 = new ActionDescriptor();
var idScl = charIDToTypeID( "Scl " );
var idPrc = charIDToTypeID( "#Prc" );
desc37.putUnitDouble( idScl, idPrc, 100.000000 );
var idLefx = charIDToTypeID( "Lefx" );
desc35.putObject( idLefx, idLefx, desc37 );
var idLyr = charIDToTypeID( "Lyr " );
desc34.putObject( idT, idLyr, desc35 );
executeAction( idsetd, desc34, DialogModes.NO );
return app.activeDocument.activeLayer
/* function for curves */
function theCurvesMix (total, channelNumber) {
var thePoint = 255 - (256 / channelNumber * total / 100);
var idMk = charIDToTypeID( "Mk " );
var desc7 = new ActionDescriptor();
var idnull = charIDToTypeID( "null" );
var ref4 = new ActionReference();
var idAdjL = charIDToTypeID( "AdjL" );
ref4.putClass( idAdjL );
desc7.putReference( idnull, ref4 );
var idUsng = charIDToTypeID( "Usng" );
var desc8 = new ActionDescriptor();
var idType = charIDToTypeID( "Type" );
var desc9 = new ActionDescriptor();
var idpresetKind = stringIDToTypeID( "presetKind" );
var idpresetKindType = stringIDToTypeID( "presetKindType" );
var idpresetKindDefault = stringIDToTypeID( "presetKindDefault" );
desc9.putEnumerated( idpresetKind, idpresetKindType, idpresetKindDefault );
var idCrvs = charIDToTypeID( "Crvs" );
desc8.putObject( idType, idCrvs, desc9 );
var idAdjL = charIDToTypeID( "AdjL" );
desc7.putObject( idUsng, idAdjL, desc8 );
executeAction( idMk, desc7, DialogModes.NO );
var idsetd = charIDToTypeID( "setd" );
var desc17 = new ActionDescriptor();
var idnull = charIDToTypeID( "null" );
var ref9 = new ActionReference();
var idAdjL = charIDToTypeID( "AdjL" );
var idOrdn = charIDToTypeID( "Ordn" );
var idTrgt = charIDToTypeID( "Trgt" );
ref9.putEnumerated( idAdjL, idOrdn, idTrgt );
desc17.putReference( idnull, ref9 );
var idT = charIDToTypeID( "T " );
var desc18 = new ActionDescriptor();
var idpresetKind = stringIDToTypeID( "presetKind" );
var idpresetKindType = stringIDToTypeID( "presetKindType" );
var idpresetKindCustom = stringIDToTypeID( "presetKindCustom" );
desc18.putEnumerated( idpresetKind, idpresetKindType, idpresetKindCustom );
var idAdjs = charIDToTypeID( "Adjs" );
var list4 = new ActionList();
var desc19 = new ActionDescriptor();
var idChnl = charIDToTypeID( "Chnl" );
var ref10 = new ActionReference();
var idChnl = charIDToTypeID( "Chnl" );
var idChnl = charIDToTypeID( "Chnl" );
var idCmps = charIDToTypeID( "Cmps" );
ref10.putEnumerated( idChnl, idChnl, idCmps );
desc19.putReference( idChnl, ref10 );
var idCrv = charIDToTypeID( "Crv " );
var list5 = new ActionList();
var desc20 = new ActionDescriptor();
var idHrzn = charIDToTypeID( "Hrzn" );
desc20.putDouble( idHrzn, thePoint );
var idVrtc = charIDToTypeID( "Vrtc" );
desc20.putDouble( idVrtc, 0.000000 );
var idPnt = charIDToTypeID( "Pnt " );
list5.putObject( idPnt, desc20 );
var desc21 = new ActionDescriptor();
var idHrzn = charIDToTypeID( "Hrzn" );
desc21.putDouble( idHrzn, thePoint + 4 );
var idVrtc = charIDToTypeID( "Vrtc" );
desc21.putDouble( idVrtc, 255.000000 );
var idPnt = charIDToTypeID( "Pnt " );
list5.putObject( idPnt, desc21 );
desc19.putList( idCrv, list5 );
var idCrvA = charIDToTypeID( "CrvA" );
list4.putObject( idCrvA, desc19 );
desc18.putList( idAdjs, list4 );
var idCrvs = charIDToTypeID( "Crvs" );
desc17.putObject( idT, idCrvs, desc18 );
executeAction( idsetd, desc17, DialogModes.NO );
app.activeDocument.activeLayer.grouped = true;
return app.activeDocument.activeLayer -
We have a customer who likes to use a dark maroon color over dark background areas, using multiply to enhance the image visually. The problem is that since the transparency setting is 'multiply', The total ink density is around 350 or in some cases 380. Is there another transparency setting to use or anything else to get the same effect without causing such ink saturation?
Thanks!You can set up a custom preflight profile. You have to go through the billion of options in the "user defined check-ups" (I'm not sure about the english name). The search box should be of help. Somewhere further down the list are some examples of TAC-check-ups (also not sure about that term and if it is used this way in acrobat: total amount of color). And of course you can modify the settings.
Cheers,
Alex -
I recently upgraded to IDCS4 (v6.0) on a Mac. I am having a problem with total ink limits not agreeing between Photoshop and Indesign.
I prepared a CMYK document in PSCS4, embedded a GRACoL#1 profile, and adjusted the image so my total ink limit is 300 in the darkest shadows. Then, I placed that image into IDCS4. My color settings in ID are set to the exact same CMYK profile, and my policies are set to honor the embedded profile, Relative Colorimetric, BPC. When I check the TAC in ID, it shows that I have over 320 in some areas, but that is not the case in the original Photoshop file. Is Indesign converting to the default document profile and forcing the blacks to hit the 320 TAC in the GRACoL profile even though they are the SAME profile? It doesn't seem to matter if I set CMYK to Preserve Profiles, OFF, or whatever in Color Settings.
If it is just assuming the GRACoL profile for readout, then I will just go by what is in Photoshop, which I trust more than I do Indesign. But, I don't want to have some number conversions going on behind the scene, pumping up my ink limits.
Any suggestions?
Thanks, LouWell....I thought it made sense, but I am not so sure after more playing around.
I reopened my placed TIFF documents in Photoshop, set my darkest blacks to 300 TAC, and resaved them without any profile. When I relink these files to my Indesign document (files have no embedded profile), I get different ink limits than what shows up in Photoshop.
For example, if I set ID Color settings to "Emulate ID2 CMS OFF", those same blacks read out as 266 TAC in the Separations Preview box, even though they are set to 300 inside Photoshop. That makes no sense to me. Color management in ID is off and the file I placed has no tag! What is that about?
If I turn ON color management in ID, set the default CMYK profile Gracol2006_Coated 1v2, (which has TIL of 320), set CMYK to Preserve Numbers (Ignore Linked Profiles), the same placed file shows 320 TAC in the black areas, even though I have placed an untagged file.
And if I set up a Proof Preview to US Web Coated SWOP v2 (which has a 300 TIL), the readout in ID shows 300 TAC in the blacks.
So, it looks to me like ID is doing calculations of its own to determine TAC. It either uses the document default if no other profile is selected, (even if the file is untagged), or the proof condition if enabled. With color management turned off in ID, who knows what it is doing.
BTW, if I check the "Simulate Black Ink" checkbox when setting up a Proof Preview, the ink limits do drop closer to what is in Photoshop, since no black remapping is taking place, but TAC still does not match.
I am probably missing something here, but if not, this is as useless as tits on a bull, and seems rather screwed up. What am I missing? I'm not new to color management and have been doing this for years, but I am new to CS4.
Thanks, Lou -
Hey there!
I have this strange problem I cannot figure out. Any advice would be highly aprecciated. I'm making a magazine in Indesign and when I export the pdf (or print postrcript file and distill the pdf) then the total area coverage of inks of the images are way over limit when I check it in Acrobat.
I have converted all the images from RGB to CMYK using correct profiles. I have several different papers in the magazine, so I used Fogra27 (300 total ink) for coated papers and custom Swop for uncoated paper (260 total ink).
Then I preflight the document in Indesign then it's says all the ICC profiles are emedded in the images.
I even tried to export from Indesign with the overall color profile included. But it's the same problem.
I cannot figure out why the images are still over limit?
Thanks a lot!
RistoWell what profile does the Acrobat file have embedded? Sounds like you are doing a conversion upon creation.
-
Total ink coverage problem with images
Hey there!
I have this strange problem I cannot figure out. Any advice would be highly aprecciated. I'm making a magazine in Indesign and when I export the pdf (or print postcript file and distill the pdf) then the total area coverage of inks of the images are way over limit when I check it in Acrobat.
I have converted all the images from RGB to CMYK using correct profiles. I have several different papers in the magazine, so I used Fogra27 (300 total ink) for coated papers and custom Swop for uncoated paper (260 total ink).
When I preflight the document in Indesign then it's says all the ICC profiles are embedded in the images.
I even tried to export from Indesign with the overall color profile included. But it's the same problem.
I cannot figure out why the images are still over limit?
The conversion of the images with correct profile should avoid the total ink to be over the top, right? I have tons of images, so adjusting the channels manually for dark places is not really an option.
Thanks a lot!
Risto>Keep the apps in the same colorspace as the Photoshop files you can sync your apps in Bridge is you own the suite.
Risto can't do that because in PS he needs to separate the uncoated and coated images using different CMYK spaces and place them in one ID document. The ID document can have only one assigned CMYK space.
The job really needs to be split into two documents one for the uncoated and one for the coated signatures then there wouldn't be conflicting profiles and all the previews will be accurate.
He can stay in one document but the placed files can't have embedded profiles, or the conflicting embedded profiles need to be turned off in ID. In that case the previews would be less accurate, but there wouldn't be unwanted conversions at output. -
Printer says Total Ink is over 240%, but Photoshop says it maxes around 220%
I submitted an image for printing on newsprint, and the printer is pushing back, saying the Dmax is over spec, which is 240%.
I'm running Photoshop CC and I'm working in CMYK with a custom color profile.
These are the color settings:
Black Generation: Medium
Black Ink Limit: 90%
Total Ink Limit: 240%
When I check the Info palette (with the dropper set as Total Ink), my cursor never falls on anything that exceeds 220%.
Am I doing something wrong? The printer sent me a screenshot showing all the places the image was over Dmax, and none of them seem to be over when I check in the info palette.
Thanks!You have done everything correctly, I see no reason why your dmax would be over 240.
Photoshop has been lacking good tools for DMAX, and have been asking for this for a very very long time. Place your .bitmapped file in InDesign, and window >> output >> seperations preview. Change view to ink limit and enter your value.
If you need more help, can you find out how the printer is determing this, does their screenshot show their method for checking dmax. -
Aequivalent to 'ink limit' (InDesign) or 'total area coverage' (Acrobat)?
Hello. I need to sort out parts of my image that contain an ink total higher than a certain percentage (like 300, 330 or so, depending on printer, paper ). I know I can use threshold to isolate the darkest parts, but that isn't as precise as the tools provided by InDesign and Acrobat. I'm quite confident Photoshop does offer such an option, but I can't seem to find it. I'm sure there's many who know. Apologies for the newbie question, and thanks.
Maybe what you are looking for is this...in the Info palette click on the little Eyedropper icons to get a dropdown menu that lets you set the eyedropper to Total Ink, which you can use to get readings off the image.
To set the limits,Edit>Color Settings. In the CMYK dropdown all the way at the top choose Custom CMYK. There you will get all the settings.
But I think (and someone else can correct me) if you have a usual Color Profile specified, this is not necessary.
Check out the manual or Help files -
Illustrator created pdf prints differently
I created a pdf document in Illustrator and when it prints from Illustrator the text is a beautiful rich black (60,40,40,100) like it's supposed to be. Yet when I opened the pdf from my desktop and print, the text prints out lighter than its back page or other pdfs.
Could this be a compression issue?
Attached are the two pdfs to compare. The Buyz pdf is the one where the front page turns out lighter and the back page retains the rich black. The SmartBargians pdf is the comparison one in which both sides print beautifully.
I've gone in to adjust the CMYK values three times just to double check that they are retaining the 60,40,40,100 and they are.
I'm about ready to bang my head on my keyboard because I've had this issue for days and I thought it already was fixed with the adjust of the cmyk values.
Thanks in advance for your helpI printed the "Buyz" piece, but the other file RIP'd to Postscript File without printing ( not sure why ). I did notice on the prints I did that the front page was slightly lighter than the back. Not sure why that happens, but in some rare cases, if you have some type of raster effects and/or transparency applied to elements in the file, then output becomes unpredictable. Not sure how many layers, if any,we're talking about either ( not that it matters ). Total ink may be having some type of affect on the file, where 240 may be cutting it to the limit. Typically, when I create a rich black I use 100K + 40C. It's enough to give you a little extra without getting into a color registration and/or total ink issue. Personally, I like the way the front looks vs. the back ( where the font looks a bit out of sync ). I've never encountered a problem like yours, wish I could help more. Sorry.
-
Saving adobe illustrator to PDF changes appearance of black.
I have been trying to save a poster I am making for ages from Illustrator to PDF on my PC. I have my preferences on Illustrator set as CMYK and the appearance of black is 'Rich Black' and it looks right on illustrator but the minute I save it to PDF and open it, the black appears grey. I am desperate at this point since my deadline is tomorrow. I don't know why this isn't working, because I haven't had this issue before with Adobe. This is a particular problem because the black of my border (which appears grey) conflicts with the rich black of a jpeg image that I want to merge with the border. I don't understand the issue, after trying many different settings.
jasminetiffin wrote:
I put all CMYK Values to 100%
DO NOT DO THAT, EVER.
Is the JPEG you're trying to match RGB or CMYK? If it's RGB, use a RGB swatch in Illustrator that matches the values of the black in the JPG. If it's CMYK and the black is 100% everything, convert it back to RGB. If it's CMYK and has a more sensible (i.e. below the total ink limit specified in your CMYK profile) rich black, use a CMYK swatch that matches it.
Having Illustrator set to display 100% K as rich black is misleading and I don't recommend it. Solid black ink or toner alone will appear somewhat grey when printed, otherwise there would be no need for rich black. It's better to be able to distinguish between the two on screen. -
A question to those who are familiar with
ICC Profile Inspector:
Open for instance EuropeISOCoatedFOGRA27.icc
Choose A2B1, which means A-to-B1:
Input 4 channels CMYK and output Lab.
Rendering Intent Media-Relative Colorimetric
(RelCol).
Choose CLUT
All sliders at the top
Read L*=65280
This corresponds to L*=100
Mapping to paper white has to be done separately
Move sliders CMYK to the bottom, C=M=Y=K=max(100)
Read L*=8418
This should be the darkest rich black
Move the third slider (Y) to the top, Y=0
Read L*=7566
Without yellow ink the surface becomes DARKER.
1. I expect: more ink = less reflected light.
2. Where is the ink limit ?
Any explanations ?
The effect cannot be simulated by Photoshop.
Here we have L*=0 for C=M=Y=K=100, which is
wrong but in a certain sense understandable.
Best regards --Gernot HoffmannHi Gernot.
It's been quite a while since I built profiles for a RIP (I use RGB profiles with my inkjet). If I recall correctly, (and I may not), I used to determine the individual and total ink limits
first, then I linearized using the RIP and my EyeOne after printing a linearization target with the predetermined ink limits. Once the linearization data was read into the software, I printed a profiling target. It also seems to me that I set the TIL in "either" the RIP or ProfileMaker, but not both. Like I said, it has been awhile.
The ISO Coated profile has a white point tag, but no separate black point tag shown in the Tag Table (similar to ProfileMaker). Monaco Profiler has a separate black point tag in the Tag Table.
I looked at a custom press profile a friend of mine made using Monaco Profiler. In the overview, it shows Maximum Black as 11L*, 3a*, 5b*, (not very neutral), but the neutral rendering curve shows a Dmax of only 13.6 L* (perhaps due to inclusion of CMY inks to attain neutrality). So, this suggests that, at least with this profile, Maximum Black does NOT coincide with a neutral black. I am not sure if this is representative of most press profiles or not.
Perhaps this is not a valid comparison, (since it is not CMYK), but I have an RGB profile created by Monaco Profiler (built by a different color management expert). This is for Crane Museo Max matte fine art paper and an inkjet, so the Dmax is low, as expected. The Overview shows a maximum black of 18L, 1a, 3b, but the neutral rendering curve shows a maximum "neutral" black of 20.6L*.
I also have a profile built using ProfileMaker and the identical input data. I was curious how they would compare. (I own ProfileMaker, but do not own Monaco Profiler). It also shows a Max Black of 18L* on the Overview tab of ColorThink, like the Monaco profile, but the neutral rendering curve for RelCol shows 18.8L*.
I'm not sure if this information is helpful, or just adds confusion. It appears Dmax is not the same a the darkest "Neutral" black from inspecting these profiles. I'd guess that the profile is using the Max black instead of the Max neutral black as the Dmax, since it is hard to detect any color toning as you approach solid black.
You can also open both the profile and the reference data in Gretag's free ColorLab (undocumented) to see the input data and the output data. There is probably an easier way.
Lou -
Controling Ink Limit while using effects and stroke and etc.
Hello!
I've got intresting (for my opinion) and important question (for ones of printing press).
Usually there is restriction for Total Ink. Personaly for me it almost always 300. So it's if design or elements of it with overlay is made in Indesign then all those shadows, stroke with 100%K can produce much Total Ink.
For example you can have cyan:100%;yellow:100%;magenta:100%;black:0%. Now if above it is element with some color with stroke black:100% (default one) then Total Ink = 400!!! And it's enough if object itself with Total Ink to have stroke 100%K to make problems.
And, of course, all those effects can produce Total Ink much more that legit.
So, is there some normal way to control Total Ink in Indesign CS5? Or maybe there is something in CS6?
Thanks.
P.S. If question is hard to understand i can try to explain it some other way (english isn't my native language)The choice of an output profile will control total ink for color conversions, but there is nothing in ID that prevents you from exceeding the limit with objects or colors you build in CMYK in the document. Nor is there a total ink flag in Live Preflight.
I think most printers would tell you that it's easier to contol a build with some percentage of black and reduced densities of CMY (gray component replacement) than your 100/100/100/0 mix, so that's one thing you can try. It's also not much of a problem, or so I'm told by my printers, to exceed the ink limit by perhaps as much as 20% in a small area like a frame stroke, though I also try to avoid that.
It's easy to find areas of too much ink, though. Open the Transparency Preview panel and there is a Total Ink warning highlight available. It highlights total ink at or above the value set, so I would set it at perhaps 305% in your case. -
How do I "fix" maximum ink density
I'm working with a printer who requires a maximum ink density of 240%. They've just kicked back a file with deep purple hues, with the explanation that it's "difficult" to keep a cover like this within that range.
What tools or windows do I look at in Photoshop to see where the problem areas are, or what other steps do I need to take as I attempt to revise this file to their standard? (In other words, I can't have the purples I want, but I'd like to change them only as much as needed. How can I know what I'm doing so that they won't kick back the file again, and charge me for another proof?) Sigh.Sorry, heres the full explanation (hopefully maybe others will chime in if ive missed anything)-
As Buko suggested in his first post ....you can change your Color settings to a Custom CMYK (edit/color settings - permanent in Photoshop until you reset them )- this custom cmyk will allow you to specify a "maximum Ink". Then just converting to Cmyk any time Image/mode/CMYK - will convert using the setting you have created. In your case provided you chose "Total Ink limit" 240% - It will not generate CMYK separations, where the total ink exceeds 240%
One problem with this - you have to remember that its set this way, so that it can be set back to something more sensible as your default. On some presses a total ink of 240 will look very washed out, and flat. So alternatively you can also convert using the less dangerous method I suggested - Edit/Convert to Profile/ Custom CMYK - you can record this as an Action.
Lets say you have a CMYK file already and you need to change it to a lower ink coverage - the best way is using Chris' suggested method of using a Curve to lower ink density. its more contollable. Heres how…
• Use a threshold adjustment layer to find out roughly where in your image the maximum ink coverage is.
• Place eyedroppers at these points.
• Change the readings in info panel to show Total Ink.
• Now use your curves to lower overall density - paying special attention to your Black (k) channel - best practice to lower K channel separate to the rest of the image. This is because K channel holds most of the detail in the image.
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