Using 24p

I hope I’m not biting off more than I can chew, (I’m new to this), but recently picked up FCE and while there are many who say you can’t edit 24p with FCE, Tom Wolsky says you can work in 30p and 24p but have to “make each sequence you work on render material without fields”. I’m using a DVX100b and would like to use 24p normal 3:2 pull down. A couple of questions, though:
If I use the 24p (or 30p) setting in my camera do I still use Easy Setup (DV-NTSC) or do I use another setting to capture direct from camera?
Apple tells me you can’t use in camera 24p settings. And, if so, I’m wondering does this also work if I want to use 24p in 16:9?
I tried using Tom’s instructions by right clicking on FIELD DOMINANCE then selecting NONE, but unable to get any response (doesn’t highlight) when I try to click on the Field Dominance. Is this because the short sequence I’m working with was shot 60p and not matched?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Much thanks,
huddie

> that they are not true 30p but really 60i rendered to 30p
Well, I certainly can't speak for all of these cameras, but I have played around with some of this "30p over 60i" footage -- but most of this was from HDV cameras, not AVCHD. Avoid if you can. Basically, the luma is progressive and the chroma is interlaced.
I have a function (it's actually part of the dv2film and hd2sd functions) that will deinterlace only the chroma, so can recover greatly true progressive output... but this is an unmitigated a pain in the *** to deal with all the time, and you certainly lose at least a little chroma resolution. Avoid :)

Similar Messages

Using 24p footage and 60i footage together?

Hello,
I am working on a project that will combine 24p footage and 60i footage. What would be the best way to go about combining these two. It's for a short that is shot similar to Cloverfield. I want to use 60i footage for the hand held footage shoot by the actors who are capturing their experience. I'd prefer to have that footage shot on 24p as well and degrade the quality in post, but I don't want to run the risk of them dropping my DVX100a and destroying it. I don't have any experience with 60i, or combining two kinds of footage, so advice is much appreciated!
Thanks!

> that they are not true 30p but really 60i rendered to 30p
Well, I certainly can't speak for all of these cameras, but I have played around with some of this "30p over 60i" footage -- but most of this was from HDV cameras, not AVCHD. Avoid if you can. Basically, the luma is progressive and the chroma is interlaced.
I have a function (it's actually part of the dv2film and hd2sd functions) that will deinterlace only the chroma, so can recover greatly true progressive output... but this is an unmitigated a pain in the *** to deal with all the time, and you certainly lose at least a little chroma resolution. Avoid :)

Editing for 24p

I have shot an event on 24p settings on Panasonic AG DVX100A camera.
I am doing this for the first time. I would like to know about the settings for digitizing it in FCP5 & Printing it on a Mini Dv tape as well as for burning a DVD.
Thanks.
MANDAR

If indeed you used 24P and NOT 24PA then just use a regular 29.97 sequence.
24P from this camera is used to get a 24fps "Feel" to the image and right now you shouldn't worry about trying to actually get it to 23.98 fps "actual."
Just pretend it's 30fps and edit normally. Printing back to MiniDV AND to DVD will be no problem.
IF you shot in 24pA then write back.
CaptM

24P or not to P, that is the question...

I was hoping someone could clarify the significant importance of buying a 24P camera in which the footage is going to end up on a NTSC SD DVD. I filmed footage for a film shot with a Canon HV20 in the 24P mode. The footage looks fantastic after you put it through Compressor and get 24fps.
To me this is all irrelevant however, I'll explain. After you shoot on the HV20 it records as 29.97fps. It is not 24fps until you pulldown the remaining frames in Compressor.
Would I have been better off just shooting on the 24P mode at 29.97fps and leaving it this way because IT IS GOING TO END UP BEING 29.97FPS IN iDVD WHEN I CREATE MY SD DVD PROJECT???? I ask this because of the large amount of time it takes in Compressor converting the footage from 29.97fps to 24fps.
I can not see any advantage at all in using 24P unless you are planning transferring to film which is 24fps.
If someone has a different view or I am missing something here could you clarify please? Please keep the explanation simple as I am not a super techie when it comes to these discussions!!
Frustrated, confused, and need of a simple explanation if I am wrong here.
Regards,
Rory
Message was edited by: Rory Mells

No...that is NOT the only advantage. Outputting to DVD is also a serious advantage, as, again, 24fps gets you more storage and better data rates. DVDs you buy with Hollywood movies are all 24fps.
Then there is the storage used to edit the footage on. 1 hour of Prores at 29.97 is about 76GB, and 1 hour of ProRes at 23.98 is 61 GB. Big savings.
Also, there are many formats of broadcast HD delivery that require 23.98 masters. I am required to deliver HDCAM masters at 23.98...sometimes HDCAM SR masters. So it is not only for film...
Shane

Capturing 24p from the HVX-200

I just filmed some footage, with the Panasonic HVX-200. I filmed in 480/24p on a tape. when capturing it in FCP do I choose DV50-NTSC 24p, or DV-NTSC 24p in the easy set up menu? I think its DV50, Im just not 100% sure. IF anyone can help me out I would really appreciate it.
Stephen.....

Yup...pretty sure...
#23 Differences between 24p and 24pA
Shane's Stock Answer #23
Quoting Ken Stone's site found at:
http://www.kenstone.net/fcphomepage/24p_in_FCPnattress.html
24p Normal
When shooting in 24p Normal, the camera is adding normal standard 3:2 pulldown to the video, which results in 24p footage designed to work with any non-linear editing suite and it will play back and look good directly to any NTSC monitor. You can use 24p Normal footage just like normal video from any DV camera, and everything will work fine, but obviously, the footage will have a film look to it. If you’re just going straight back to NTSC video tape, then using 24p Normal is the simplest, easiest workflow. No special treatment of the footage is needed and you really can just edit as normal.
24p Advanced
Before you shoot 24p Advanced, you should fully understand it’s workflow implications. If you watch 24p Advanced footage before you’ve removed it’s pulldown, then it will look a bit jumpy and jerky. This is totally correct, because 24p Advanced is not designed to be viewed as is.
To use 24p Advanced and gain all it’s advantages, you should know that you cannot edit it as is (as this would leave it’s jerky looking pulldown intact), but you must first remove it’s pulldown. Final Cut Pro will do this for you, leaving you with the 24p footage without any of the extra “padding” fields that are added to make it’s frame rate 29.97fps. Now that your footage is 23.98fps, it must be edited on a 23.98fps timeline, and this can cause problems if you, for instance, want to include other footage, B-Roll, or stock footage, that comes from a different source. However, once you have your finished edit at 23.98fps, you can make a 24p DVD, which will allow you to compress your MPEG2 less than if you were making a normal 29.97fps NTSC DVD, and hence attain higher picture quality. Similarly, if you’re making a web movie, you will find it easier to get a higher quality result from 23.98fps media than normal NTSC media. 23.98fps movies are also easier to take out to film that 29.97fps movies.
If you are editing in a 23.98fps timeline, Final Cut Pro will add pulldown on the fly, over Firewire, so that you can see your movie on a normal NTSC monitor. Similarly, it will add pulldown when going back to DV tape. However, this will not work on a non-DV format output, say to Digital Betacam, and slower Macintoshes do not have the power to add 3:2 pulldown in realtime, falling back to lower quality pulldowns which although are not too bad while editing, will not make the final project look as acceptably good on television as a final product.
What that tells me is that 24P just adds a "look" of 24 fps to the footage that resembles that of telecined film, but that you work with normally at 29.97fps. Or, if you want to, you can add a reverse telecine and work at 23.98. Either way.
BUT, with 24PA, the footage looks jittery when played on the tape. So sure, you can work with it and output it to tape, but that tape is useless to anyone OTHER than someone who can capture it and perform a reverse telecine to work with it. It will not work as a Master tape for any viewable purpose: Broadcast TV, projected video from tape, a master tape for dubbing purposes. So, in effect, it is useless as a tape master, and should be avoided.
If you want to have a tape master, shoot and edit 24P at the 29.97 framerate.
Shane

Sony "HVR-V1U" 24p editing

i am thinking of getting the new sony 24p camera and want to know about FCP settings. i understand there is an HDV setting and a 24p setting. Which will i use? I want to use 24p for the look only. i will not edit in a 24p timeline or export to DVD 24 or film.
thanks, jim

I have shot with the XL H1 at 24F and 60i. I can tell you I get a better image with 60i. You lose 20% of your quality when you go 24F, because it isn't really shooting progressive, but a FAKE (must be what the F stands for) progressive...losing lines of resolution to make the video full frames and not interlaced fields.
BUT...that being said, the footage still looked VERY nice, and not overly stuttery (don't set your shutter too high or it will). But, I also had issues with the camera in post. Final Cut Pro would not see it. The computer did, it was in the System Profiler. But FCP wouldn't see the deck, not matter what HDV setting I chose. I tried it on my laptop, and FCP saw it, controlled the camera, but wouldn't import the footage. iMovie HD saw it...but what is the point of that? No timecode.
I did eventually end up capturing with my Kona LH as DVCPRO HD, which is what I would normally do, but I wanted to test HDV footage.
But the camera is $9000. And it is HDV. For $9000 I can get an HVX-200 camera and two P2 cards and shoot in a MUCH BETTER format, DVCPRO HD.
No experience with the Sony...
Shane

FCP 5 and 24p camera

I use final cut pro 5.04 and a panasonic DVX-100a and im lookin for ways to optimize the 24p experience in final cut. Can I get information on using 24p cameras with final cut.

http://www.kenstone.net/fcphomepage/24p_in_FCPnattress.html
Shane

IMovie 08, the Canon HV20, & 24p?

Although iMovie 08 has been highly disappointing (less functionality, timelines, etc) can it natively capture video from the Canon HV20 that has been recorded in 24p "Cinema mode"? If not, is there a plugin to do the pulldown required for capturing and editing, and are the results equal to native 24p capturing and editing? If not, I'll have to use iMovie HD all the time - too much functionality was taken out it in iMovie 08.

I use HV20 all the time with iMovie 06 and 08. Like many has pointed out the only thing 24p about HV20 is its sensor. It can scan 24fps progressively but records to tape as 60i using pulldown and the result is '24p looking video playback' on 60i system - just like many movie DVDs where the source is 24p but stored as 60i.
If you want true 24p editing you need to use NLE that supports 24p timeline, which no consumer level NLE does, and you should convert 60i clips back to 24p via a process called reverse-telecine. So for most of us Hv20 would work just fine with iMovie 06 or 08 as is.
As for low light performance of HV20, it is a little bit better than other cams in this class when you use 24p mode because the shutter can open for longer time allowing more light in. But any consumer HD cameras suffer from bad low light performance so don't expect HV20 to do any miracles.

Sony HDV 1080 24P

I have FCP v5.1.4 and I'm about to buy a Sony HDV camera that can record in 1080 24p. I'm not sure which codec to use when editing, because I want to use 24p and edit in 24p, but I've heard that there are problems that may arise when editing in 24p. Is it possible to capture the video in DVCPro HD and edit that way without a problem?
Mac OS X (10.4.9)

I capture using the Apple Intermediate code. There've been several threads about this. Do a search and you'll find a lot of information.

24P, cinema tools,..asking for trouble down the road?

A project was shot using 24p.
Removed frames using Cinema Tools and it did a better job than FCP did. Remove Advance Pulldown wouldn't pull out the correct frame. (Or I'm leaving some important step out.)
Now the project is ready to edit in 23.98 fps.
But what happens if I need to re-digitize the media with the project being offline down the road? I noticed the time-code Media Start is a little different. Will my sequence be off by a few frames and be out of sync?
Isn't 24pAdvanced better since you can bypass the step through Cinema Tools?
Thanks for any help.

When you strip pulldown via Cinema Tools, it rewrites the file to 24 fps timecode, so recapturing isn't possible, in my experience, when the tape media is 29.97 timecode.
If you're working offline/online, yes, 24pA is better because when FCP strips the pulldown, the file retains the 29.97 fps timecode. That is, frames, and those timecode numbers, are simply skipped.
I hope you have a copy of the FCP project file back when it was still 29.97 fps cause you'll might need that clip info when you have to recapture. Though I suppose a logging sheet that corresponds exactly to your clips could suffice...

Canon HV-20 can iMovie handle 24p?

I have done a bit of research and have narrowed the field down to two camera's:
Canon HV-20
Sony HDR-HC7
The HV-20 that will be out soon has a 24P mode that is getting some praise. But I am not sure whether iMovie can handle that type of video.
HV-20 Review
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Canon-HV20-Review-in-Process.htm
Thanks!
Jim

iMovie doesn't convert the footage to 29.97. The HV20 does. All video shot with the HV20 is converted to 1080i60 before being written to the miniDV tape. This must be done to conform to the NTSC broadcast standard. Even if you set your HV20 to 24p mode, it gets recorded as 1080i60. To confirm this to yourself, record something using 24p, then play it back. You'll see during playback the on screen indicator now says just HDV (instead of the HDV inside of the filmstrip symbol). The camcorder is adding what's called 3:2 pulldown on the fly.
There are ways of converting the 1080i60 footage to 24p once on your computer (removing 3:2 pulldown), but its way beyond the capability of iMovie. Final Cut Studio users can do it with Cinema Tools which is included with Final Cut Studio. There are a few discussions about this on the Final Cut Pro forums.
Even if you did all this conversion back to 24p, you'd have to convert it back to 1080i60 to get it to conform to the NTSC video standard required by the camcorder to record back to the miniDV tape.

24p reverse telecine

I used to be able to reverse telecine 24p footage from HVX200 camera but now its not working and people are now telling me that it only works with 24pa footage. I used 24p workflow in the past and it worked fine. What has changed? I think I used the 24p workflow before final cut supported 24pa. I already have a whole project shot in 24p and need to reverse telecine.

workflow:
shoot with HVX200 in 1080i/24p
import/transfer P2 files into FCP
Reverse Telecine to work with 24p version of footage in FCP without interlaced frames.
problem: "cinema tools reverse telecine" under the tools menu does not work as it did with same workflow in previous versions.
Ok, so it appears that the "pro-apps update 2008-05" (which updates among other things FCP to 6.0.5) is the problem. I have decided to work in 6.0.1 where the workflow works fine. Here is my troubleshooting log:
I used FCP remover to uninstall the entire studio
installed 5.0.2 and received corrupted file message when attempting to import P2 file
upgraded to 5.0.4, P2 files imported (no log and transfer in this version) successfully with a DVCPRO HD 1080i60 compression at 29.97 fps. I applied the "Cinema Tools Reverse Telecine" tool to a selected file (one of the same files I have been working with sense the beginning of this issue and will continue to use through out this troubleshooting) and it successfully processed the file resulting in a 24fps clip with no interlaced frames. YEAH!
I used software update as far as I could with this version and the workflow was still successful.
Installed 6.0.1 from CD, the workflow was still successful except the P2 files where coming in with a compression of DVCPROHD 1080p30. I don't see a problem with this. The resulting file was still 24p without any interlaced frames. And this version also has the log and transfer feature.
I ran software update and installed "Pro-Apps update 2008-05" and "Cinema Tools update 4.2.1". So I am working in FCP 6.0.5 and the problem starts. "Cinema Tools Reverse Telecine" just simply does not work. Nor does a reverse telecine work if I go directly through Cinema tools and bypass FCP with the imported P2 files (now quicktime).
I uninstall with FCS remover again.
I install 6.0.1 from the CD and perform the "Pro-Apps update 2008-05" only which takes me to 6.0.5 again. Still no good.
I uninstall with FCS remover again.
I install 6.0.1 from the CD. I don't do any updates and the workflow works great! So I will atleast do the log, transfer, and reverse telecine in this version. In the future I will shoot in 24pa, for that seems to work fine with the same workflow in 6.0.5.
I am going to leave this post as un-resolved sense Apple still needs to fix this in future versions.

24P troubles

In a pickle here. 24P source material, edited on a 24P timebase, exported using compressor into DVDSP 3 using the 60 minute widescreen high quality setting, set video format to Automatic. My finished FCP sequences says my video is 48:54:14. When I put it on the track in DVDSP, it says the time is 48:51:20, which is what it would be in the normal 30fps timebase, however, the audio ends up showing on the sequence as it being longer, and as you play it back, gradually ends up out of sync, eventually by the end being almost a full three seconds behind the video. I cant find any settings to indicate a 24P setting for the track or the DVD itself. Any suggestions?

Was the timebase sequence in FCP 24 fps or 23.98 fps? I think the 24 fps sequence exists for when you plan on transferring to film. You may already be accounting for that, I can't tell. In any case, I suspect that DVD SP expects only 23.98 fps or 29.97 fps for NTSC sources and interestingly enough the difference between 23.976 fps and exactly 24 fps over 49 minutes is about 2.9 seconds while the difference you saw in the timeline was almost 2.8 seconds. Like I said, you may be using 24P as a shorthand for 23.98 fps video but if not then could that be the problem?
Apparently when Compressor 1.2.X converts 24 fps to 23.98 fps it just drops one frame out of every 1000 which again seems close to that three second difference given your runtime of about 49 minutes.
Well, that's my guess anyway (and it's only a guess). Of course, if you were using 23.98 fps from end-to-end that doesn't help explain your problem.
<small><hr width="75%"><small>If this suggestion helps in any way, a confirmation or acknowledgment would be appreciated, since that would also help others who may be having the same difficulty. Do for others as you would have them help you.<center>Thanks for sharing, Waymen.</center></small>

30p vs 24p

In considering which frame rate to standardize on for this series, I'm pondering the benefits, if benefits there are, to 24p vs. 30p. What I see most often in documentation is that 24p gives "that coveted film look."
Of course, I plan on doing some shooting this weekend to see how much of a difference I can tell from an emperical perspective, but I thought I'd see if there was a general sense around here of the whens and wheres to use 24p over 30p. I'm assuming that Sony included this option because there are reasons to choose it. But then, it may just be that Marketing wanted more bells and whistles. One never knows.
Any thoughts on the benefits of 24p?

chris,
Ah, so the stuttered look is what 24p contributes to the "film look?"
when movies first started being made ( silent ) the frame rate was something like 18fps I think.... when shown on a 24fps "projector" they look like they are speeded up....thats why so many of the old silent "clips" we used to see in the theatre as kids ( filler between the 2 feature films usually shown for our one ticket in those days )...were so fast...like the keystone cops etc...they moved fast and it was sorta funny to see everyone moving so fast....but in the beginning they were projected at 18fps....and moved " normal "....
However, the frame rate of 18fps flickered a lot ....and wasnt that smooth. the "mitchell movement" ( the claw and registration pins and motor etc that makes up the basic movie camera....which drags the film down and puts it in position for exposure ...24 times per second now ) got invented and movie cameras became 24fps.
one of the reasons movies are 24 fps is simply because the invention of the mitchell movement ( the parts that put the film in the gate and so on for exposure ) was fast enough to get rid of a lot of the "flicker" that you saw at 18fps....
That mitchell movement is going REALLY FAST ( at 24fps ).....if you were to look at it working ( like open the side door of a film camera and load film and run it for a few seconds....you would see how screaming fast that thing is moving )...
Now, as time went on the movement got even BETTER ( capable of going faster than 24fps ) ....and you could also make it go slower... which is called overcranking and undercranking the camera.
Because the projectors are 24fps....if you run a film camera at 60fps everything will look like it is going very slow ( slow motion ). If you run the film camera at 18fps and project it....everything will look like it is going FASTER.....
In real world shooting you could undercrank the camera on a stunt to make it look like the action is going faster than it would otherwise look ( help the stunt along a little bit...by undercranking )...
Or you would overcrank to make something look like it is slow motion.
These fps speeds in the camera are adjustable but 99% of the time the film camera will shoot at 24fps. And the projector in the theatre is projecting at 24 fps....
This has nothing to do with "film looks" and "aesthetics" etc... its simply the speed of the projectors being 24fps....and the mitchell movement in the cameras....
now time has marched on further and new stuff is being introduced to the old world of film and video.... but at least you know why film is 24fps ( cause projectors are 24fps )

Final Cut Pro 7 issues

I have just recently upgraded to FCP 7 from 5.1 and I am having multiple problems with it. The main issue is that when I batch capture from My Panasonic DVX100 using 24p advanced pull-down the video on my computer after capture is out of sync by half a second to a second out of sync with the audio. I have tried uninstalling and reinstalling Final cut studio multiple times first with app zapper and more recently with FCS Remover and it still has multiple issues that make final cut pro largely unusable. So Does any one have any advice as to go about fixing it?

Used to be, Apple included the DVX100 sync fixer file on the install disc. Did you look to see if it's still included or not? Here is an explanation from back in the FCP5 days:
http://www.2-popforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81233

Using 24p

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