30p or 60i

I am hoping that someone can give me a quick lesson on the (dis)advantages of shooting 30p or 60i, using a canon HF100 (HD). I understand this will be very subjective, and i will be doing my own tests. But I would like to understand the basic concept to begin my testing.
I will eventually be putting these videos on the web. The subject material will primarily be live music performance, but in a recording studio - so the environment is controlled.
Since the camera records at 1080i - is the 30p simply a trick to make it 'look' progressive - and if so, are there detriments to the process? Is it something that should be done in the conversion? Obviously, I want to film, convert and output in the best quality possible.
Also, does anyone have an opinion on whether it's best to transfer using ProRes or use Toast to convert the data to another format (DVPro???) before I bring it into FCP? Is the HQ vs. standard based on the data - or a preference/file size issue?
Thanks in advance.

If you're aiming for the Web, then go 30p. Movement looks much better with progressive.
It's not that subjective, actually. Check out this animation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlace#Problemscaused_byinterlacing
1080i30p is true progressive embedded in an "interlaced" stream.
You should be able convert it to ProRes in the Log and Transfer window.
HQ files will be bigger, but HQ is probably not necessary unless you plan
on doing lots of effects and color-correction.
Have fun!

Similar Messages

30p or 60i conversion to 24p...

i am making a section for a mountain bike movie for one of my friends...i will be able to film it on my camera in eithere 30p or 60i... well the company i will be sending the segment too wants everything in 24p because it will be mixed in with some 16mm footage and other 24p footage (dvx100b) sooo is there a way to convert it in final cut pro? or a stand alone app i can get for mac to do this?
thanks.

As Jerry said, better to get a camera that does 24P. If that is impossible, I'd go for Nattress Film Effects - http://nattress.com - and shoot 60i.
But my true second choice would be to shoot it at 30P and edit it into a 29.97 timeline along with the 16mm footage as it will have been transfered with a pulldown. I think that would give you the best results. I honestly think that 30P will give you a better temporal resolution for activity like mountain biking than mock 24P...
Patrick

How to tell if an HF100 clip was shot in 30p or 60i?

I have a bunch of old HF100 footage that I want to re-edit. Trouble is, I can't remember which ones are 30p and which are 60i (I want to tag them differently with iMakeFullHD). Other than looking at them, is there some quantitative way of telling which is which -- either from the mts file metadata or from the imported iMovie 09 movie metadata?
Thanks!

I have a bunch of old HF100 footage that I want to re-edit. Trouble is, I can't remember which ones are 30p and which are 60i (I want to tag them differently with iMakeFullHD). Other than looking at them, is there some quantitative way of telling which is which -- either from the mts file metadata or from the imported iMovie 09 movie metadata?
Thanks!

Working with 30p or 60i

Hey, so i just got an HF100 and supposedly it records in 30P which is really recording 30p in a 60i wrapper. Currently my capture preset is at Prores 422(HQ) and sequence preset are Prores 422 (HQ) in 1920x108030P. Since the hf100 isn't recording in "true" 30P but rather a 60i wrapper should my sequence preset be 1920x108060i or should i leave it at 1920x108030P? I'm looking for the most seamless way to edit these AVCHD files for final output to web, standard dvd, and possibly blu-ray when that option (apple supported) becomes available for my mac pro. So am i actually working with 30P footage or 60i out of this camera? Let me know! THanks so much for the help.

I had a similar query a few months ago with my HV20 which can shoot HDV at 25p.
I was told to use the 50i setting so you should be OK with the 60i.
Your footage has 2 identical fields per frame (Progressive Segmented Frame) as opposed to true progressive with only one. In the HV20 manual Canon states it is shooting 50i.
Here are the details of Progressive Segmented Frame shooting should you be interested:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProgressivesegmentedFrame

Multiclip with 30p and 60i footage

I recently did a shoot with 3 cameras-- two of them were at 30p, and one was set to 60i. FCP won't let me make a multiclip of them because they are not in the same format. I assume the most expedient thing would be to convert the 60i material into 30p. Is that correct? What is the best way to do this with Final Cut Studio (FCP or Compressor-- how?)
Thanks.

What settings would I use?
Quicktime uncompressed 8-bit, 10-bit, or one of the Mpeg-2 settings?
My guess is that I want to leave everything the same as it is, only change it from 60i to 30p.
I think I need the "Compressor for Dummies" kind of an answer.
Thanks.

Still confused: Should I shoot HD in 30p or 60i ?

I know this has been discussed at length and I apologize if I missed it, but I'm not sure there was ever a consensus on the answer.
With my Canon Vixia HV30, I have the option to choose 1080p30 instead of the 1080i60 default. Assuming I'll be processing my video in iMovie more often than displaying directly from the camera (which looks fantastic but is limited to raw footage), am I better off choosing 30p? I'm guessing that would eliminate the need to de-interlace my raw footage to avoid the field-drop issue? Any downsides to choosing 30p?

Wayne Henderson wrote:
... is this a personal opinion and a matter of taste or have most folks here settled on 30p as a better route? I know this is re-opening an old debate, but I wasn't there the first time.
don't worry, this debate will never end.
a) i was meant for arial-broadcasting, displayed on tubes. actually, any 'flatscreen' isn't able to display i - there's some pound of electronics needed, to 'add' the two fields into a p-picture on display...-
b) actual cameras don't read-out the 'chip' in i but p ... there's some pound of electronics needed, to 'create' the two fields in the recording
c) any fast motion (and actual aesthetics add motion even to a stone) creates non-identically fields, which, when combined on any actual display, create jitter, steps, lines .. there's some pound of electronics needed, to eliminate this unwanted side-effect ...
d) iMovie09 handles p without problems, i can cause probs.
e) my cam handles 720p only
f) I like the 'blurred' look of long-speed (1/30th), p 'filmed' video ... look my two YT-demos in this thread http://discussions.apple.com/message.jspa?messageID=11298695#11298695
g) ... / list to be continued /

Using 24p footage and 60i footage together?

Hello,
I am working on a project that will combine 24p footage and 60i footage. What would be the best way to go about combining these two. It's for a short that is shot similar to Cloverfield. I want to use 60i footage for the hand held footage shoot by the actors who are capturing their experience. I'd prefer to have that footage shot on 24p as well and degrade the quality in post, but I don't want to run the risk of them dropping my DVX100a and destroying it. I don't have any experience with 60i, or combining two kinds of footage, so advice is much appreciated!
Thanks!

> that they are not true 30p but really 60i rendered to 30p
Well, I certainly can't speak for all of these cameras, but I have played around with some of this "30p over 60i" footage -- but most of this was from HDV cameras, not AVCHD. Avoid if you can. Basically, the luma is progressive and the chroma is interlaced.
I have a function (it's actually part of the dv2film and hd2sd functions) that will deinterlace only the chroma, so can recover greatly true progressive output... but this is an unmitigated a pain in the *** to deal with all the time, and you certainly lose at least a little chroma resolution. Avoid :)

30p for DVD?

I have acquired some source DV tapes at 30p. But, as I remember the DVD spec for NTSC, the players recognize 24p but not 30p. Can someone please confirm this?
What I think this means for my project is that DVDSP will not accept a 30p input. So the best approach would be for me to convert my 30p to 60i in compressor. Is this correct?
Now I know that the BluRay case is different and that spec does accept both 24p and 30p for 480p mode. So my question only concerns DVD and standard definition.
Thanks,
John

I'd export the 1080 timeline using current settings and let Compressor work with that. I just did it with a 720p file and it worked fine.
rh

How can I determine if certain footage is interlaced or progressive?

Hi everyone,
I shoot and edit my own ski/snowboard films every year. I use a Sony HDV V1U. When filming, I constantly switch between 30p and 60i depending on the shots. I do this because 60i can provide smoother slow motion in post. Problem is, when I am editing the footage, it is extremely difficult to tell what's progressive and what's interlaced. My computer monitor, like all, is progressive, so interlaced footage looks just like 30p. One way I can tell is by adjusting the clips speed to slow motion, then judging by how Premiere handles the frame blending, I know what it is. But that is not practical for a massive project. A simple solution would be preveiwing on an external monitor, but from what I have read you cannot stream HDV back to a camera from the timeline, and I do not have money for a special capture card.
So my question is, is there any way to playback HDV on an external monitor (my TV or camera LCD) without a special capture card, or is there another easy way to determine 60i from 30p on Premiere's timeline? Thanks.
Here's my specs:
Premiere Pro CS3
Sony HDV V1U camcorder
Windows vista 64bit
Intel quad CPU Q9550 2.83 GHz
8 GB ram
Nvidia GTX 260 graphics card

The problem is the files are not all seperate. In one single file of 45 mins of HDV footage, there is a mixture of 60i and 30p, but the computer will always think it is 60i. I have been filming this way for years, and mixing the 2 record modes is definately the way to go. In my past projects, I was working with DV so it was not a problem.

AVCHD--1920x1080 24p native--final cut express

New to FCE and video. I shot a bunch of video on a Canon HFS 21 in 1920 x 1080 24p native. I am trying to import it into FCE, but it looks like FCE wants me to degrade my video to import it and edit. Same goes for some video I shot with my Canon Mark IV, which was also 24 p. Is there anyway to work with FCE and 24p native or do I need to upgrade to FCS? Thanks in advance.

I just got a Panasonic GH2 which can shoot in 1080p24 and I edit with FCE. What I have figured out is that if you just use a 29.97fps timeline, it plays the 24fps video fine. Then when you export the project at the end, just export back to 24fps and it should line back up with the original 24fps of the video you shot and not skip or duplicate any frames.
The one thing that might be a problem is that when you tell FCE to export at 24fps, it actually does what I think is a pull-down and exports at 23.98 fps. This may mean that once in a great while there is a dropped frame. If you do the same thing but use a 25fps timeline in FCE the actual exported rate is 24.04 I think. This is worse as there will be duplicate frames twice as often.
If you are concerned about the dropped frames with using the 29.97fps timeline in FCE, export to a lossless (or near lossless) format at 29.97fps (ie by not using "Quicktime Conversion"), then post process the result in JES De-interlacer (free), using "standards conversion" to convert the video from 29.97 to 24fps (use telecine mode, not blend). This will resample the frame rate to exactly 24fps and you should be good. Link:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jeschot/home.html
I have noticed some weird jumpy stuff if I slow down a 24p clip in FCE where the camera was panning left and try to fight that by moving the clip right on the canvas (the faster frame rate of the FCE motion keyframe move fighting the slower frame rate of the original video moving in the opposite direction), but I assume that would also happen with 30p or 60i video in that situation if you slowed it down enough - just the 24fps video is making it more obvious at less extreme speed reductions.
Message was edited by: Arvid

Pro-consumer Video Camera: Recommendations?

I'm looking to purchase a pro-consumer miniDV camera but I am confused by the selection. I know that I want a 3-CCD imager (probably rules out Sony cams), 4:3 ratio and true 16:9 aspect ratio, 24p, 30p, 1080i/60i, and XLR audio input. It seems these cams run around +$3k.
I will not be using the cameras to shoot wedding or events but experimental video and I require rich colors. I will also probably be shooting dance. I would also like to leave room to film a short independent feature. (I might eventually have to upgrade to accomplish this.)
Which cams do you recommend?
Another question: In your opinion is it worth spending a couple thousand more to get a lower priced but true HD video camera. By true HD I mean progressive scan video at 720p. By is it "worth it" I am concerned about the cost of shooting in 720p mode, the limited storage capabilities, the cost to purchase hard drives and decks. What are the costs and complications of purchasing a 720p camera? I know I am probably limited to Panasonic or JVC brands. Which cameras do you recommend?
Thanks so much for all your feedback.
Mac OS X (10.4.1)
Mac OS X (10.4.1)

Standard Definition (the format which the DVX100 shoots in) has a relatively straightforward editing workflow, tried and tested in recent years and easy to work with, particularly if you are working on a budget and are restricted to using an iMac, which has less options for expandability i.e adding a second firewire bus (not firewire port - sometimes you can get problems capturing video via firewire if you have your transfer deck or camera hooked up to your computer on the same firewire bus, despite being on separate ports - not always and you may never experience the problem, but if you're editing in more than a casual user environment you don't want to take the risk)
You can't add e-sata drives (alternative to fW drives) via an e-sata card on an iMac whereas you can with a macpro which can also add internal storage whereas an imac can't.
HDV which the XA-H1 shoots in, is at the lower end of the Hi Def formats, looks great when shot well and displayed on a large screen hi-def tv, but is highly compressed and causes problems in the editing workflow.
Ideally, you want to have a monitor or at least a portable tv hooked up to your computer for external monitoring of your video - to check whether titles are correctly displayed within the title-safe areas and more importantly for colour correction as computer displays and tvs don't display video the same and whereas this may not be important if you're videoing your great aunt's birthday or the kids playing in the park, if you're doing serious stuff, such as commercials or short films you need to be able to monitor externally.
Performing this is simple if you're editing standard def but if you're editing HDV you can't do this using the method described.
You either have to use a combination of HD monitor such the Apple 23" Cinema display coupled with the Matrox MXO card or use a compatible capture card to convert to a more edit friendly format such as dvchpro to avoid long render times - both options will cost more than the price of the imac on it's own and is why it's recommended to get a macpro tower when using a Proapp such as FCP if you're hoping to edit for a living or if you're a serious and regular user.
That's not to say you cant edit HDV using a imac and external FW hard drive set-up - I'm sure many contributors to this forum do - just to illuminate the possible difficulties.
Also, when shooting in any hi-def format, your technical camera skills need to be more proficient - focus in an image that is blown up to higher sizes if much more critical and you're going to show every blemish and wrinkle of a character's skin.
Yeah, the XA-H1 is a fine camera for shooting with from a camera and image perspective - much more difficult to deal with the footage as an FCP editor and potentially a lot more expensive if you want/need to do it properly.
Yes, as large hi-def tv's become more widespread, Hd is going to become the format of the future - as I've no doubt, will tapeless cameras.
Many Prosumer HDV cameras offer the option of downconverting in-camera to standard def, meaning you can shoot in the HDV format, then downconvert to standard def for editing, retaining the HDV master for future re-editing if you don't currently have the setup capable of editing HDV natively or if, in future, the HdV editing workflow becomes easier to deal with.
This may be your best option, but you'll need to check if the XA-H1 has this facility - I'm not familiar with this camera but know that the Sony Z1 or v1 both offer this facility.
Don't forget, there's not yet an inexpensive way of burning HD/HDV material to DVD that'll play in the majority of HDDVD/Blu-ray players yet - that's coming in the near(ish) future, so if you are outputting to DVD, you'll have to do this in SD anyway.
BTW, I have used the DVX-100 extensively and it's the standard for 1/3" CCD standard def prosumer cams.
Search the forum for HDV to check out the current thinking on editing HDV - there's masses of opinion out there.
Good luck!

Is there Mac software for repairing corrupted pdf files?

Using Mac 10.5.8, Adobe Acrobat Pro 9.3.2.
Many of my pdf files are encrypted on a sparsebundle disk image, as they are personal financial files.
Randomly files become corrupted, and even though I back up, it is a recurring and very time-consuming problem.
It's basically the only problem I have with my system, and because of the importance of the files very frustrating.
There are PC-based file repair programs. I've come across references to a command-line program, but hey, I'm a Mac user, right?
Is there anything?
And while we're at it, what can I do to prevent files from becoming corrupted? These are files from my scanner, not downloaded.
Thanks
sjtill

See this list for Cameras that are compatiblie with iMovie. Almost all Sony cameras made in the last 5 years work with iMovie, so odds are high that your camera will work. The only exception is that some manufacturers have started providing 60P cameras. These cannot be used at 60P in iMovie (or on a TV set for that matter). But these cameras typically have other settings like 30P or 60i that work fine.
The bundled software with the Sony is Windows software. They do not bundle Mac software with Sonys because iMovie comes with every Mac anyway, and that is all you need.
I think your camera works with an SDHC card. You can easily insert the SDHC card into a card reader and import the footage. New iMacs have card readers built into the side. In iMovie, you just start iMovie. Then insert the card and wait for iMovie to see it. Or you can click the camera icon on the middle toolbar if it does not see it.
You can also attach your camera via USB. In this case, the camera must be plugged into wall power, and you attach via a USB cable.
Follow the instructions in the manual for how to set the controls of the camera during import.
Edited to add...You need a Mac with at least an Intel Processor to import from this camera. Older PowerPC models (G5, G4) will not work. Even with them you can get third party software to convert to a form iMovie can handle.

Is the new Canon XL-H1 camera supported in Final Cut?

Hi All,
I understand that FCP does not yet support the 24F (progressive) or 30F (progressive) modes in this new Canon camera.
Canon originally told me that an update to FCP was in the works which would incorporate this codec (or whatever it's called) but Apple will not tell me anything about this. But Canon now tells me that they can't comment on what Apple may or may not be doing.
Does anyone out there know more about this issue?
This is an extract from an email someone sent me about this problem which makes the issue much more clear:
"Hi Harry,
My incomplete understanding of both the 24F and 30F modes is that Canon
has been able to embed a truly progressive frame in a 60i stream. As
you may know these progressive frames were somehow captured from the
XL-H1's interlaced CCDs.
The problem is since these progressive frames are flagged in an
interlaced stream the NLE has to be able to extract them properly. My
understanding is that the current version of Final Cut Pro cannot properly
handle 24F or 30F. Apparently Apple needs to release an update to Final
Cut to allow it to extract the flagged frames. You might want to go to
the Final Cut Pro website to let Apple know how important this is you.
I am planning on getting the XL-H1 soon myself and I am hoping Apple
does something soon myself."
So here I am posting this message.
Is there anyone at Apple that I can get hold of and bug about this?
Ideas please ...
Best
Harry

The 24F mode on the Canon is real 24p in that it's 24 evenly spaced frames a second, but it's really just badly de-interlaced 48i. It's stored on tape as 24p in their own format, probably similar to the JVC's 24p by embedding it in 60p using frame repeat flags.
The 30F is generated from 60i in the same manner, but is stored again in some wierd format (everyone else just embeds 30p in 60i, making it totally compatible) so nothing understands it. This is a big mistake IMHO. Who's going to buy a camera that you can't capture into your NLE, and can't play on a HDV tape deck??
Graeme

Converting Canon 5D mrk4 H-264 30fps to ProRes 23.98fps??

A friend is about to shoot a docu with his 5D. I did a straight conversion to ProRes, looks great. The film is for international release; he wants to convert the 30fps to 23.98fps. I'm not sure about the new Canon firmware release (which may allow for 24fps, or 23.98fps) ... but I'd like to do a test for him anyhow, he is stuck having to convert.
I have Nattress' Standards Conversion Filters ... but haven't used them in a couple of years. Wonder if I need to upgrade. And ... if anyone has a quick 1,2,3 about how to use the appropriate one to go from 30fps to 23.98fps or 24fps.
All ears,
Ben

I quote my friend, who has shot scores of Hollywood features as a DP (with very high end gear), and is now starting to direct docu's ... thus new territory for him (and new camera gear):
"We're aiming for theatrical release, so whether on film or digital projection, 23.98 is required.
30P or 60i is a pain in the *** for European distributors. 25P or 50i is a similar pain for the North Americanos. 23.98 seems to be the lingua franca of this medium.
We originate in 23.98P - the quality of a progressive recording is better than an interlaced one from a similar camera.
The 5D 30P material will comprise a small portion of the footage - hence the need to convert it to fit into a 23.98 project."

Working on a 60 p timeline

Hi. I do have a question here. I do have scubadiving 29.97i AVCHD footage from my Sony HDR XR550 that I imported in my events. I use to work with a 29.97 timeline and I find that I'm loosing quality of the images or resolution. I tested the same footgae ( 29.97i) in a 60p timeline and it looks so clean , just like the native files on the TV via HDMI. I exported the test on my desktop using FCPX and the .mov looks very clean also and is almost 5gb.
Howcome I can't have this nice clean look when I export it to Vimeo or on the web. I think they are downgrading it to 30p, right? Is there a way I can dowload it to have that nice crisp images of the underwater life. I'm not looking for film effect.

Many sony cameras don't shoot in native 30p, but 60i with each frame identical in time. I found, for example, in FCP 6, that if I imported to a 30p timeline, I lost 1/2 the resolution; importing to a 60i timeline kept everything, and when exported and compressed for DVD, it was handled as progresssive.

30p or 60i

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