Happy 6th birthday to my internet woes

 -:MY BT PROBLEMS:-
If you wish to skip to the current problem at this precise time feel free to skip down, I just thought if I provide everything then there's a greater chance someone might see the problem. The red writhing contains the current problem. Also I apologise for all the colours but hopefully its less boring than just black and white
Background:
  Hello, my name is Morgan Owen. Im a 17 year old student living in the countryside in Bedfordshire. 
I am making a post about the problems I've been having with my broadband. I have tried a lot to fix them and I am starting to get very upset and frustrated over it, and rightly I believe as I'm not exaggerating in the title, so I have decided to make a complete log of my problem in an attempt at keeping my sanity. I also know this is long but i want to get everything down and i have tried to format it as well as possible.
As for me although not majoring in networking I have taken some very beginner courses in networking at an attempt to understand the set-up of the internet and my background is deeply intertwined with technology and computing. I have tried to learn as much as I can and apologise if im wrong about any points that i raise as i do not profess to know everything but I do at least feel I have at least some competence when it comes to technology and the internet.
I will say here I am not the actual bt account holder, however i am his son and act on behalf of him as he was suffering from stress from dealing with it.
The Problem With My Internet:
Set-up
My house is strange in the fact we have 2 connections, we always have and it has never been a problem. at one end downstairs we have a AOL connection point and it is ok. its at a steady 1-MB connection which is by no shot of the imagination good but its stable and considering where I live acceptable and usable. My Bt connection point is at the other end and is completely separate. 
We have changed several things over the years and only recently in the past (roughly) two and a half years got a bt homehub. we origionally had one of the older ones and it was linked directly to the acess point. It provided wirless for 2 computers and a laptop. 
However, on a recent occasion I got told by an engineer that the root of my problems was almost certainly the homehub as it was old and known to have problems. this prompted us to get a new one. We found the only way to get a new router despite and engineer saying we needed one and writing it up in his report was to enter into a new contract. This would mean a new 12 month more expensive contract in order to get a piece of bt kit that was apparently bad. We did so under the spoken conditions it would work as intended and we would receive our proper connection speed.... it didnt work. This means now our set-up is slightly different and we use a bt 2.0 A home hub.
This home hub has been in a lot of different set-ups. in each case the home hub was left for roughly 4-5 days to allow for stabilization. I have tried having it directly linked to the connection point, moved higher, lower, closer, away from electrics, reset it, into the master socket, at different settings and any advice given to me about placement. I am sure you can sympathize however that waiting 4 days every time to check if its made a difference is excruciatingly grinding on the nerves of a student.
I have over the course of our problems with the internet had 3 engineers round my home who have verified the set-up is ok and correct, I have done as much reading as a slow internet allows on proper setup, have had 2 friends who are in there final year studying network maintenance look over it and a independent specialist. They have all found slight fault or things that could be deemed "non textbook" but nothing that makes a slight difference to performance.
Problem
History
(at this point I would like to also say I'm only 17 so the past 6 years is a large chunk of my life so my sincere apologese I cant provide exact times or years)
We have never had super fast broadband. We live in a part of the country that is just never going to be considered commercially viable to upgrade the line quality. That is mildly annoying to me but i can see it makes complete business sense. From the start we received around a 1MB connection which was a little slow to do things but was relatively stable. Since then we had irregular crashes but nothing too serious. untill.... the internet wouldn't work at all. for about a week we were stuck without a connection waiting for a engineer to try and fix the line. When he arrived he said the wires had been broken or i cant really remember but said he could just switch it over to another line that was leading to our house. This surprisingly worked with only a few occasional hiccups. and also to my great surprise we were getting 2MB's or more! however there would be problems and when it went slow it would be slow for about a week and a half until it would resume. although inconvenient this didn't seem to be a problem as it was only occasional.
After a problem with the next door neighbours phone line about half a year latter a engineer concluded there was some faulty wiring in the box outside our house causing us to sometimes hear each others phone lines? (information goatherd from neighbours not the actual engineer) but this was resolved as far as i can tell.
Now after this and in all honesty im not sure of the time span, is when all the major problems started..
The current problem
I recently have found out we had our line switched from a set 2Mb's to a  (I forget the name however it was explained to me as a line that will transfer as fast as the quality allows) line and i recently havce come to suspect that was the start of our real troubles.
We started having week after week of poor connection. And I would like to make this clear, to most my friends the max we've ever had (4MB's is a poor connection) but when I say poor I mean around 0.07MB's. The lowest being around 0.03MB's which meant anything on the net was completely and utterly unusable. The other AOL line wasn't effected so i left it and decided to try and sit it out. after a few weeks it went up to around 2.5MB's which was amazing! i could actually watch videos! I was ready to sing Bt's praises at actually trying to better our internet despite the fact we live semi remotely.
However the next morning it had fallen to 0.1MB's again. This remained the pattern  of events with an extended period of in all honesty unusable internet speeds and then a small window of around 2-3MB's. This is when I started ringing Bt. Im sure many of you know as a company Bt can be frustrating to get help from and constantly try and offer you stupid advice. after a few weeks of going through "please check your router is plugged in" and "sir please note that speed tests can be effected by the performance of your computer" I was getting fed up but finally managed to get a engineer sent out.
Engineer visit one (well one for this current problem): Unfortunately I was at school so couldn't actually talk to him. I had to wait about half a week and on arriving back from school the day he came was met with the same poor internet. My mum had told me that hed shown her there was no problems and he'd climbed the pole outside and checked the internal setup and it had all been fine. This unfortunately had been one of the short periods of good internet we received so despite missing it the engineer had come at the rare time we were getting a speed above 1MB. he wrote a report and told us to check some things if it ever came back and left.
I got back on the phones after realising it hadn't worked and was  back on the phones to bt asking if they had another solution. It was confirmed there was a problem and they'd try to resolve it. It was at this point i decided to do some research of my own. but before finding anything of use was rung by bt and told my internet would be fine in 3 days and 18 hours (allowing a stabilisation period). and i thought that was it they'd fixed the problem, done.
3 days 18 hours passed and it did work again, for about 3 days. then fell to a  pathetic 0.13Mb's. This was about the point I started losing faith so asked my friends and finally a independent specialist for help. none could find anything obviously wrong with what they had access to except when a friend was looking at my ADSL stats he pointed out a straneg thing.
my downstream was 3000kb/s yet i was getting an actual speed of 0.13Mb/s. I didn't know what this meant but was told it wasn't right and on my behalf he was on the phones to BT. after relaying the obvious problem, The people call centre decided to send another engineer over. 
Engineer Visit Two: I insisted on staying so I could talk to the engineer this time as I was keen to understand the problem. He turned up on time and was very pleasing and over all very nice and helpful (which bt, if any one from bt is reading this is one thing you do very well, your engineers are very nice ^^). However the first thing he did was check the line and literally turned to me shocked and said "Your lines fine, it says you've got over a 3MB connection which is a lot more than most people living around here". I explained that it wasn't what we were actually getting and after trying to actually visit any web page or do anything he realised the extent of my problem. After more time poking around he concluded there wasn't any problems with the line (as he was a bt reach engineer) and so there was nothing he could do, however he did ring the exchange. he asked them to check and found out that my speed had been DE-THROTTLED ,not because of misconduct but because my line quality had dropped and it was trying to preserve connection, and that this automated response might be the reason for the cyclic nature of our problem. Before he left however he looked at the home hub and told me they always had problems with that model and it was most likely the cause of the problem. he then said he'd write it up in a report and we should ring bt to try and get a new one. However as shown above this just locked us into a contract for 12 months for something we didn't need or want =(
I should also say at this point as this particular engineer was shocked to hear it that we very rarely to never had problems with our connection as far as being able to connect was concerned. I play on-line game and own a xbox  so would be quite sensitive to sudden disconnections or failure to connect.
 After this i decided the call centres were getting me no where so I tried looking for more on the bt website. i am truly sorry to rant, but, honestly for an internet company surely it is a truly terrible idea to make most the resources for people having problems with there internet have to sit and wait for bt's media rich hel sites to load up only be told to watch a video or open an on-line chat or download a bt helper?!??! no helpfull!
anyway, I spent the next few weeks talking to people trying to get help and sending emails to bt or trying to ring them again. I asked all my friends, strangers, people on on line games and forums for there help or opinions but to no avail. I even added some posts here, which although bitter stated what i had gone through recently but unfortunately got some angry responses about not just blaming bt.
a few months went by and I gave up. I was getting winddows of about a day of 3MB internet and then a week of rubbish. I could still just about use msn but that was all. Then on one partually stress inducing night in which i thought it was a good idea to try and play a co-op game online on my xbox i sent another email to bt, and promptly forgot all about it. 
This brings us to roughly too about a month ago where I got  a phone call from bt telling me the problem should of been resolved, and to my shock it seemed to be! it stayed at 3MB for around a week!!! but then just as hope had blossomed it was massacred by a 0.03 connection speed that made checking my emails difficult.
upset and confused at still having the problem I checked all my adsl stats again. to my surprise the downstream had gone down to 700kbs so at least this time I wasn't taunted by a large downstream! however the same spiking pattern resumed of a day or two of OK internet followed by poor internet, but this time with a changing downstream and connection issues. It will quiet often cut out or say broadband is unavailable. and in short is more unusable than ever.
this prompted another email and to give credit to bt they phoned me several times which i unfortunately missed (was practising for my driving test, which i passed!) but when they did get hold of me they told me the problem had been resolved and i was shocked at once by there efficiently. however after another almost week of good internet it died again. which leaves me here.

Current problem description
I have  a low (roughly 0.03 -0.3 mb connection) which is inconstant and has a down stream of around 700kb/s. it often disconnects and has a high ping/latency making everything undo-able. However the upload is rarely to never effected. I have a few short intervals where it is ok but not in any time correlation with each other. Also usually when the speed is ok my ping will go much higher, around 100-200 usually, which is double to tripple what it normally is.
Stats:
As of 9:00 on 15/10/2010 these are my adsl stats
Line state Connected
Connection time 0 days, 10:24:33
Downstream 704 Kbps
Upstream 448 Kbps
ADSL settings
VPI/VCI 0/38
Type PPPoA
Modulation ITU-T G.992.1
Latency type Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up) 24.5 dB / 20.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up) 50.0 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up) 17.2 dBm / 12.3 dBm
Loss of Framing (Local) 5
Loss of Signal (Local) 4
Loss of Power (Local) 0
FEC Errors (Down/Up) 925 / 0
CRC Errors (Down/Up) 5 / 2147480000
HEC Errors (Down/Up) nil / 0
Error Seconds (Local) 243
Hide Details
 bt test result returns:
 Download speedachieved during the test was - 114 Kbps
 For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 50-250 Kbps.
 Additional Information:
 Your DSL Connection Rate :0 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 0 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
 IP Profile for your line is - 135 Kbps
(which i am confused about as surley having recieved a connection of 4Mbs at times that is what my line is actually capable of?)
speedtest.net currently returns
Ping: 58ms
Download:0.11mb/s
Upload:0.33mb/s 
(my upload is triple my download lol!)
pingtest.net currently returns
0% packet loss
55ms ping 
jitter of 7ms 
and a overall quality of B
This is a list of things I have done to try an remedy the problem:
Over 50 hours on the phone to different people including bt.
2 engineers specificily looking for this problem, more in the past who have seen the stup of our network and not found fault.
2 university final year students looking for the problem
an independent specialist 
3or 4 emails to bt
3 forum posts
movement of hardware
change of software
new contracts
In short i am lost and losing hope. Im aware this was long and if you actually read it i am incredibly grateful. If anyone could fix it, or even point in the right direction i would be sooo thankful. I am aware im nto an expert but I think considering other obligations i have i have invested alot of time into trying to resolve the itnernet problem for my family.
Please, leave any advice it would be greatly appreciated.
finally I apologise for any mistakes in either information and or spelling.

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    <script type="text/javascript">// Capture(hwireless.phase11) // </script> Should you encounter inconsistent data flow, only minor modifications are recommended. If a network packet is smaller than the preset RTS threshold size, the RTS/CTS mechanism will not be enabled. The Router sends Request to Send (RTS) frames to a particular receiving station and negotiates the sending of a data frame. After receiving an RTS, the wireless station responds with a Clear to Send (CTS) frame to acknowledge the right to begin transmission.
    This value should remain at its default setting of 2346. The range is 256-2346 bytes. It specifies the maximum size for a packet before data is fragmented into multiple packets. If you experience a high packet error rate, you may slightly increase the Fragmentation Threshold. Setting the Fragmentation Threshold too low may result in poor network performance. Only minor modifications of this value are recommended.

  • Community Newsletter - Birthday edition

    Welcome to the 3rd Birthday edition of our newsletter! 
    Another year has passed and the community is 3 years old! Thanks so much to everyone who makes this a great place to be, we are very lucky to have a strong community and the forum just keeps on growing....Read on to find out more....
    Community Managers!
    Leader Programme!
    Team Bios Updates!
    Welcome our new Community Managers to the fold!
    We have expanded our Community Leaders Programme to keep up with our ever expanding Community
    See if the team have gathered any new interests over the last year with our updated bios.
    The BTCare Community Team would like to wish the Community...
    Happy 3rd Birthday !
    Another year has passed, and the community is now three years old!
    So, what has happened over the last year?
    New Community Managers
    SeanD and StephanieG have taken over from KerryG and are now the new Community Managers. Both have worked on the forum since its start and would like to thank everyone for welcoming them with their new role.
    11.000 thank-yous. The forum keeps growing!
    In 2012 we’ve had:
    - 11.000 kudos given! It’s great to see that those who have taken time to help with queries are getting thanks;
    - Over 21.500 new forum registrations;
    - 170.000 new posts.
    It’s now our turn to say thanks to you for keeping the community such a helpful and friendly place.
    We couldn’t do it without you!
    The Team have new Bios...
    Take a peek here to learn a bit more about the team.
    Community Leader Program
    A special shout-out goes to our Community Leaders, who over the last year have played a big part in making the forum a success.
    We have had three new forum members join to the CL program. Congratulations jac_95, pottyperson and sjtp and thanks for joining the program!
    “Ask the Expert” chats
    We also hosted two “Ask the Expert” live chats about BT Infinity and YouView from BT.  We got some great questions and watch this space for new “Ask the Expert” sessions in the coming months!
    Christmas competition winners
    Congratulations to our “Christmas in a picture” and caption competition winners stuartrogerson and ohtarus!
    What’s next?
    Over the coming months we are going to have more Ask the Expert events and this will give you a chance to find out more about our products and services.
    We’ll also be looking into expanding our Community Leader Programme further, look out for future announcements about this!
    In the near future we’ll be conducting a review of our Community Structure, and this may involve a re-organisation on our boards and categories so if you have any ideas about this do get involved in the Ideas Bank.
    We are also continuing to expand our library of YouTube videos. Check out our BTCare YouTube channel for our latest videos and we’ll be featuring some of these in the forum over the next year.
    We’ll be keeping you regularly updated every few months with our newsletter so keep an eye out for more news!
    BTCare Team on Facebook
    Don’t forget to follow our BTCare page on Facebook and Twitter. We also have a YouTube page with lots of helpful videos.
    If you’ve not had a chance to check it out yet, visit our Facebook page to keep up to date with news, competitions and latest deals!
    Follow us on Twitter and check out our helpful YouTube videos
    Keep the feedback coming!
    Thanks to all your feedback we now have a dedicated YouView from BT board. If you have any other ideas or suggestions about the community, post your idea in our Ideas Bank and let us know your thoughts.
    Stephanie
    Stephanie
    BTCare Community Manager
    If you like a post, or want to say thanks for a helpful answer, please click on the Ratings star on the left-hand side of the post. If someone answers your question correctly please let other members know by clicking on ’Mark as Accepted Solution’.

    Welcome to the 3rd Birthday edition of our newsletter! 
    Another year has passed and the community is 3 years old! Thanks so much to everyone who makes this a great place to be, we are very lucky to have a strong community and the forum just keeps on growing....Read on to find out more....
    Community Managers!
    Leader Programme!
    Team Bios Updates!
    Welcome our new Community Managers to the fold!
    We have expanded our Community Leaders Programme to keep up with our ever expanding Community
    See if the team have gathered any new interests over the last year with our updated bios.
    The BTCare Community Team would like to wish the Community...
    Happy 3rd Birthday !
    Another year has passed, and the community is now three years old!
    So, what has happened over the last year?
    New Community Managers
    SeanD and StephanieG have taken over from KerryG and are now the new Community Managers. Both have worked on the forum since its start and would like to thank everyone for welcoming them with their new role.
    11.000 thank-yous. The forum keeps growing!
    In 2012 we’ve had:
    - 11.000 kudos given! It’s great to see that those who have taken time to help with queries are getting thanks;
    - Over 21.500 new forum registrations;
    - 170.000 new posts.
    It’s now our turn to say thanks to you for keeping the community such a helpful and friendly place.
    We couldn’t do it without you!
    The Team have new Bios...
    Take a peek here to learn a bit more about the team.
    Community Leader Program
    A special shout-out goes to our Community Leaders, who over the last year have played a big part in making the forum a success.
    We have had three new forum members join to the CL program. Congratulations jac_95, pottyperson and sjtp and thanks for joining the program!
    “Ask the Expert” chats
    We also hosted two “Ask the Expert” live chats about BT Infinity and YouView from BT.  We got some great questions and watch this space for new “Ask the Expert” sessions in the coming months!
    Christmas competition winners
    Congratulations to our “Christmas in a picture” and caption competition winners stuartrogerson and ohtarus!
    What’s next?
    Over the coming months we are going to have more Ask the Expert events and this will give you a chance to find out more about our products and services.
    We’ll also be looking into expanding our Community Leader Programme further, look out for future announcements about this!
    In the near future we’ll be conducting a review of our Community Structure, and this may involve a re-organisation on our boards and categories so if you have any ideas about this do get involved in the Ideas Bank.
    We are also continuing to expand our library of YouTube videos. Check out our BTCare YouTube channel for our latest videos and we’ll be featuring some of these in the forum over the next year.
    We’ll be keeping you regularly updated every few months with our newsletter so keep an eye out for more news!
    BTCare Team on Facebook
    Don’t forget to follow our BTCare page on Facebook and Twitter. We also have a YouTube page with lots of helpful videos.
    If you’ve not had a chance to check it out yet, visit our Facebook page to keep up to date with news, competitions and latest deals!
    Follow us on Twitter and check out our helpful YouTube videos
    Keep the feedback coming!
    Thanks to all your feedback we now have a dedicated YouView from BT board. If you have any other ideas or suggestions about the community, post your idea in our Ideas Bank and let us know your thoughts.
    Stephanie
    Stephanie
    BTCare Community Manager
    If you like a post, or want to say thanks for a helpful answer, please click on the Ratings star on the left-hand side of the post. If someone answers your question correctly please let other members know by clicking on ’Mark as Accepted Solution’.

  • New VMS/IPC boxes - speed and pricing

    For the most part, I've been a very happy FiOS customer. The internet side has gone out exactly once in the year I've had the service, and it was restored within an hour. TV has dropped out twice, both times very late at night (I assume for head-end maintenance). Reliability is better than every other ISP I've ever had, combined.
    That said..
    I wanted to snag another STB for the house - found out the local stores had all been closed (I can understand why from the financial aspect, but it was still a shock pulling up to my old store to pick up another STB.. and finding a "for lease" sign, when I'd been by there 2 months prior), so I looked at options online. The new VMS + IPC boxes looked promising, especially since they added the ability for the entire house to pause, rewind, schedule recordings, etc, from any TV - instead of only the DVR being able to do that (though the old boxes could stream recordings from the DVR).
    My chief complaint so far - while the VMS box itself is responsive, the IPC boxes are painfully slow to respond to anything. Picture quality is fantastic, but using them feels, to put it in nerd terms, like using a Pentium 90 with Windows XP and 128MB RAM. They take 5+ to respond to anything more than a channel change (and even that takes up to 3 seconds), and frequently "lose" remote key presses if you try to, say, hit guide, hit page down, then try to arrow down to the channel that you know is on the next page. It literally feels like a throwback to the earliest digital set top boxes from Comcast/Time Warner - the first ones with built-in TV listings in the mid 1990s. The speed is right on par with them; the only thing faster right now is they don't shut down for 30 minutes a day to update the TV listings.
    I've gone through the built-in diagnostics on the boxes to verify signal levels - they're decent (not perfect, but this is a 20 year old house with mostly original coax), but we have no pixelation or picture drop-out, so I would think they could carry the basic stuff between the IPC boxes and VMS pretty easily. The router certainly has no problem handling the 75/35 on the same coax (speedtest shows 85-90 down, 35-40 up, with a ~5ms ping, no matter which cable outlet it's plugged into)..
    My other complaint - why did Verizon move to "rooms" for pricing? I thought I was getting a DVR plus 3 STBs (since I ordered 3 STBs and asked for a DVR), instead of a VMS + 2 STBs - and I'm paying much more than I did for the old DVR + 2 STBs.
    With the griping out of the way - is there a reasonable chance that firmware updates will help with the speed of the IPC boxes? Or is there a chance it's a cabling issue? (I have no problem pulling new coax or cat5e, and I can provide signal levels if that'll help) If not, is there any chance of getting the old QIP7232 DVR + QIP7100 box back (and adding another 7100), and switching back to what I was paying before? I know they're a bit antiquated (especially the 7100s), but they were much more responsive, and didn't make me want to throw the STBs through the window. It just seems really rediculous that I'm paying such a large premium (plus the "upgrade fee") for equipment that, in terms of the user experience, is much worse.
    Again.. been a happy customer for a long time, but the new terminals are super painful to use.
    Thanks.

    If this is the case.  I think I will wait till the bugs are worked out
    Question what were you paying before and after for the boxes.   So what was the old DVR + 2 STB's and the new DVR plus 2 stb's
    Trying to get an idea of what you meant by way more.  Most people said same pricing and a small $20 or so upgrade fee

  • Constant Your Set Top Box Has No Data Connectivi​ty/Poor DVR Performanc​e

    For the past few months I have been dealing with very poor performance out of my multi room DVR. Often in the middle of watching shows, the DVR will just disconnect and look for the hub which means rebooting the cable box and a constant stream of, “your set top box has no data connectivity” messages. This has elevated to beyond a nuisance. I have been in contact with Verizon Fios' live chat multiple times however they fail to solve the problem. The picture on the DVR is extremely choppy as it is having difficulty streaming and then it just drops and once again searches for the hub.
    I have also recently upgraded to the 75/35 internet and the router has been cutting out and resetting at least twice an hour ever since. I love Verizon Fios and have recommended it to many of my friends who have also signed up. I am just looking for a solution to my DVR and internet woes.

    You need to have a tech come to your house. You could have bad light at the ONT., bad router, bad ONT or bad coax somewhere.

  • If I buy a used iPhone 4 without a data plan will the GPS work?

    I live in Canada and am a complete newbie when it comes to cell phones and data plans. I am not interested in having or paying for cellular telephone capability.
    I've been using the 64 Gb iPod Touch 4 but detest its 0.7 Mb still camera and bemoan its lack of GPS.
    Now that the iPhone 4S has been released, there are many folks selling their older iPhone 4s. I'd love to use one of these older iPhone units with their better camera and GPS capability, but don't want to pay for a data plan, nor am I willing to pay $850 for an unlocked iPhone 4S. I'm happy to continue using wireless internet and don't need a cell phone.
    Being a newbie when it comes to data plans and cell phones, if I purchase a used iPhone 4 from someone:
    1. Does it need a SIM card (activated or not) to use the GPS on it? If yes, must a deactivated SIM card be provided by the seller or where can I obtain one?
    2. Does the iPhone 4 need to be on a cellular plan to use the GPS?
    3. I can use a deactivated iPhone 4 on WiFi only as I've been doing with the iPod Touch 4, correct?
    4. If I can use a deactivated, non-contract iPhone 4 on WiFi only, will the GPS work and allow me to use GPS-enabled apps? If yes, does it somehow still "tie"into available local cell networks to achieve a position without me paying for (or being registered for) cellular access?
    5. Can future iOS upgrades (say to iOS5) still be performed on a deactivated iPhone 4 without a cell plan?
    6. Do I need to purchase the iPhone 4 from a Canadian seller given my above questions? What other questions do I need to ask of the seller when looking for a used iPhone 4?
    Thanks in advance for any help with my newbie questions!

    Thanks for that, Paulfromwallasey. I live in a rural area without many cell towers and with WiFi only in my home. I do use offline maps (topographical and street maps) on my iPod Touch 4 outdoors (not needing a signal, WiFi or cellular). I also have a hand-held Garmin GPS receiver but would rather use the GPS in the iPhone (its positional accuracy, while likely being lower than that obtained from my Garmin, is likely sufficient for my needs).
    I guess that one of the questions that I was asking is if I were to purchase a used iPhone 4 from someone, and the SIM card have been removed, would the device's GPS still work with GPS-enabled apps (albiet without the cellular-assist)?
    Can any pay-as-you-go SIM card be purchased for and used in a deactivated iPhone4? Would this even be necessary for the GPS?
    Thanks again.

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