Knowledge Management External Content Question
I've read in previous articles that basically in the SM Portal you can't view external content links stored in the KM Articles. Is this still the case in SM 2012 R2?
Hi,
Yes, for the SCSM R2 default portal is still the same.
Cheers,
Marat
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Similar Messages
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Managing External Content Types - make it read only?
I have a simple SharePoint list with an External Data column. When I edit item where the corresponding data was removed from the External Content Type I get this error:
No exact match was found. Click the item(s) that did not resolve for more options. You can also use Select button to
choose External Data.
I assume this is by design and I cannot delete underlying data and keep the value in the list - is this correct?
So my question now - is it possible to keep that info in the external list but disable in a picker so new records cannot be created with that particular value? How do I do it?
Thanks,I don't understand the question exactly, could you restate it. Sorry mate, I might just be braindead.
But, as far as the issue, it is by design. the column is a lookup columns which essentially ties to the external data. if that data is removed, the column on your simple list becomes invalid and any edits of the simple list item will require
it to be changed.
are you wanting to make the ECT read only? that's simple enough. you can pop open SPD and edit the ECT, then remove the C/E/D operations (create/update/delete). That will not, however make it read-only in any other systems that access that
external data, as I assume its not just SP or else it wouldn't be external
Christopher Webb | MCM: SharePoint 2010 | MCSM: SharePoint Charter | MCT | http://christophermichaelwebb.com -
Management Pack Contents Question
Hello,
I have recently became the owner of our SCSM 2012 R2 environment and the previous admin was all over the place with putting things in seemingly random management packs. I am in the process of cleaning things up but at the same time I am afraid of removing
a management pack in case there is some "grenade" in it.
Is there an easy way to list or determine what is in each management pack? Maybe a series of powershell scripts? I have been searching on the internet for an answer and trying out a few commands myself but nothing seems to be what I am looking
for.
Thank you in advance.Personally, I just look at the XML in the sql database.
select MPName, convert(xml,mpxml) from Managementpack with(nolock)
I'll assume your previous admin put things in unsealed MPs via the console.
In my opinion, the only grenade would be classes or relationships defined in the MP. Other than that, generally you can remove an MP and simply re-import it with no ill effects. Classes and relationships, when their MP is removed, also remove any data defined
in those classes/relationships. So, those are the ones to watch out for.
Unsealed MPs cannot be referenced by other MPs, so again, generally, the only affect removing an unsealed MP can have is removing stuff defined in that unsealed MP..which can be things like templates, views, console tasks, worfklow rules, notification subscriptions,
etc. So while some functionality may be removed (like a view is suddenly missing), re-importing the MP will put the view right back where it came from.
Anyway, I don't know of any simple powershell scripts to get a management pack's manifest (like: How many views are in this MP?), but I would look through your XML and catalog the views, templates, custom console tasks, custom workflows (which include notification
subscriptions) and groups&queues (which include custom classes). Then you can start eliminating the unnecessary stuff.
Incidentally, if you're simply trying to clean-up stuff that was created in the console, I recommend removing that stuff using the console..that way you won't have to deal with MPs at all. For example, if you want to get rid of a view that your previous
admin created, simply go to the view and run the "Delete View" task. You can do the same for templates, notification subscriptions, workflows, etc etc.
I apologize for rambling on quite a bit longer than was necessary :) -
BI related Knowledge management question
Hi Gurus,
i am a BI consultat, new to knowledge management, I need some documents trlated to below mentioned
topics
*Content Management*
Using KM as repository for Queries,(web and Excel), Workbooks, Web Templates.
Publishing background report output to KM
KM ability to be the repository of unstructured data linked to BW (documents linked to transactions)
TREX
Google like search capabilities for Documentation including BW Metadata and Collaboration output published in Portal.
Collaboration
Rooms
Groupware
Instant Messaging
BOBJ interaction
Roles and responsibilities in doing the above
BI team, BW Administrators, BW Expert users
KM landscape
please help me ,
thanks in advance
DABHi check these links
KM Bible - What is KM
http://help.sap.com/saphelp_ep60sp2patch5/helpdata/en/4c/9d953fc405330ee10000000a114084/frameset.htm
Content Admin Objects in Content Administrattion
https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/servlet/prt/portal/prtroot/docs/library/uuid/9801b8f9-0701-0010-3f98-bceb17f62a4f
Collaboration Bible
https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/sdn/nw-collaboration#section6
Standard Collaboration Functions
http://help.sap.com/saphelp_nw2004s/helpdata/en/da/2bfa40fd14f323e10000000a155106/frameset.htm
https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/servlet/prt/portal/prtroot/docs/media/uuid/6f23799d-0701-0010-eab5-877fa8771d5e
TREX stands for Text Retrival And Classification it provides software application with a wide
spectrum of intelligent search, retrieval, and classification functions for documentation development.
https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/sdn/go/portal/prtroot/docs/library/uuid/81c1ca90-0201-0010-a2a1-b0412ec9cd1a
https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/sdn/go/portal/prtroot/docs/library/uuid/ec4ee290-0201-0010-6c8d-98db9abff2cc
You may have to configure TREX for using external web search engines. Check these links.
https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/sdn/thread?threadID=16210
https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/sdn/go/portal/prtroot/docs/library/uuid/ec4ee290-0201-0010-6c8d-98db9abff2cc (Check last 2 pages)
https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/sdn/thread?threadID=51640
Using the Instant Messenger
http://help.sap.com/saphelp_nw2004s/helpdata/en/d3/9621af15024274afacfe874d5798b8/frameset.htm
Groupware IntegrationBLOG-
https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/sdn/weblogs?blog=/pub/wlg/5461
) hummm tooo many questions at one time, )
Cheers!!
SJ -
Questions on managing iTunes content and devices?
I've been a subpar iTunes user for several years now and I figured it was time that I just started asking some questions in order to get help. I love all my different iOS devices, but at times it seems that it's extremely difficult to manage content amongst the devices as well as my different computers (I use a PC for personal use and a Macbook for work.) My wife also has her own iOS device (Which we just use my AppleID on to keep all purchases under a single account) and a PC. So it seems like a constant juggling act to keep my content properly managed.
The new iCloud stuff looks like a wonderful step in the right direction for helping manage content on my different devices, but I'm still a little curious about the best way to go about storing, sharing, and accessing content. So all that being said, here's my current setup and questions.
First of all, I have my iTunes Media Folder on set to save everything to a Network Attached Storage I have at my home. This is the version of iTunes that I run off of my PC, which I guess I would say is my primary source of iTunes usage and how I generally choose to manage my content and move things to and from my iOS devices. Everything works out pretty well until I try and manage my content on any other computer.
Creating a consistent storage location on a NAS
My first basic question is, "Is it possible to have multiple versions of iTunes on different computers point to the same Media Folder?" If I could have all of my iTunes folders work off the same Media Folder that would probably help cut down on the confusion. However, I'm not exactly sure if this is just a matter of giving them all the same path to use or if there's additional permissions and things that must be setup. Also, what happens if I decide to purchase content through iTunes and I'm not connected to my home network, so the content cannot be saved to my NAS? Does it save to a default location that I can just later move to my NAS?
Home Sharing
What exactly is "Home Sharing"? I've read a little bit about it but I'm not 100% sure what it actually gets me since I already have a NAS. Is this what I need for setting up multiple computers to share the same Media Folder? Do I need this at all since my data is located on a central NAS on our home network?
Syncing devices from multiple computers
One of the biggest headaches I get with trying to manage content across multiple computers and devices is that I have to use one specific computer to Sync and Manage content on a device. For example, I have my iPhone synced to iTunes on my PC so I can edit and manage music on that device from my PC. But if I'm at work on my Macbook and decide I want to make some changes to Music I have there, then I have to sync my device to the Macbook, effectively wiping all the current content on my phone. Is there no way around this?
iCloud Questions
I have content that I've purchased on my iPhone or iPad and want to download it from the cloud to my PC or Macbook, or my wife's computer. Do I have to "repurchase" this content in order to do that, or does it just download directly for free since I've already purchased it before?
I apologize if any of these are "silly" questions. I've tried to read up on this stuff but I still have difficulty completely understanding it.I've been a subpar iTunes user for several years now and I figured it was time that I just started asking some questions in order to get help. I love all my different iOS devices, but at times it seems that it's extremely difficult to manage content amongst the devices as well as my different computers (I use a PC for personal use and a Macbook for work.) My wife also has her own iOS device (Which we just use my AppleID on to keep all purchases under a single account) and a PC. So it seems like a constant juggling act to keep my content properly managed.
The new iCloud stuff looks like a wonderful step in the right direction for helping manage content on my different devices, but I'm still a little curious about the best way to go about storing, sharing, and accessing content. So all that being said, here's my current setup and questions.
First of all, I have my iTunes Media Folder on set to save everything to a Network Attached Storage I have at my home. This is the version of iTunes that I run off of my PC, which I guess I would say is my primary source of iTunes usage and how I generally choose to manage my content and move things to and from my iOS devices. Everything works out pretty well until I try and manage my content on any other computer.
Creating a consistent storage location on a NAS
My first basic question is, "Is it possible to have multiple versions of iTunes on different computers point to the same Media Folder?" If I could have all of my iTunes folders work off the same Media Folder that would probably help cut down on the confusion. However, I'm not exactly sure if this is just a matter of giving them all the same path to use or if there's additional permissions and things that must be setup. Also, what happens if I decide to purchase content through iTunes and I'm not connected to my home network, so the content cannot be saved to my NAS? Does it save to a default location that I can just later move to my NAS?
Home Sharing
What exactly is "Home Sharing"? I've read a little bit about it but I'm not 100% sure what it actually gets me since I already have a NAS. Is this what I need for setting up multiple computers to share the same Media Folder? Do I need this at all since my data is located on a central NAS on our home network?
Syncing devices from multiple computers
One of the biggest headaches I get with trying to manage content across multiple computers and devices is that I have to use one specific computer to Sync and Manage content on a device. For example, I have my iPhone synced to iTunes on my PC so I can edit and manage music on that device from my PC. But if I'm at work on my Macbook and decide I want to make some changes to Music I have there, then I have to sync my device to the Macbook, effectively wiping all the current content on my phone. Is there no way around this?
iCloud Questions
I have content that I've purchased on my iPhone or iPad and want to download it from the cloud to my PC or Macbook, or my wife's computer. Do I have to "repurchase" this content in order to do that, or does it just download directly for free since I've already purchased it before?
I apologize if any of these are "silly" questions. I've tried to read up on this stuff but I still have difficulty completely understanding it. -
External Content Typ: "Connection manager did not return valid connection."
Hi,
I created an external content typ in the sharepoint designer which takes my custom WCF Service as a data source. I sucessfully added all my required operations and created a new list based on the new content typ. At first I had a security issue which I got
resolved by editing my BDC configuration in the Central Administration. Now I face a new issue. When I open my external list the BDC Service gives me the following error message:
"Connection manager did not return valid connection."
Has someone a solution for this kind of message?
Thanks,
EricHi,
I got the same error "Connection manager did not return valid connection.". In the error log it shows
09/17/2010 12:21:35.28 w3wp.exe (0x13FC) 0x0F60 Business Connectivity Services Business Data
a5t8 Medium Chose 'PassThrough' auth mode cb34d6ff-663a-4872-9022-21782a7be122
09/17/2010 12:21:35.28 w3wp.exe (0x13FC) 0x0F60 Business Connectivity Services Business Data
a5uo Medium Initialized WcfSystemUtility for LobSystemInstance with Id '144'. cb34d6ff-663a-4872-9022-21782a7be122
09/17/2010 12:21:35.28 w3wp.exe (0x13FC) 0x0F60 Business Connectivity Services Business Data
a5up Medium Wcf Service AuthN Mode: PassThrough cb34d6ff-663a-4872-9022-21782a7be122
09/17/2010 12:21:35.28 w3wp.exe (0x13FC) 0x0F60 Business Connectivity Services Business Data
f8dk Medium Checking for current connection to SystemInstance: NewCustomer cb34d6ff-663a-4872-9022-21782a7be122
09/17/2010 12:21:35.28 w3wp.exe (0x13FC) 0x0F60 Business Connectivity Services Business Data
a5s9 Medium Creating ClientBase object with type : BCSServiceProxy.WCFCustomerClient cb34d6ff-663a-4872-9022-21782a7be122
09/17/2010 12:21:35.29 w3wp.exe (0x13FC) 0x0F60 Business Connectivity Services Business Data
a5tz Unexpected System.MissingMethodException: Method not found: 'Void Microsoft.BusinessData.SystemSpecific.Wcf.IBdcClientBase.set_ActAs(Boolean)'. at Microsoft.SharePoint.BusinessData.SystemSpecific.Wcf.WcfConnectionManager.ConfigureCredentials(Type
clientBaseType, Object clientBase) at Microsoft.SharePoint.BusinessData.SystemSpecific.Wcf.WcfConnectionManager.CreateClientBase() at Microsoft.SharePoint.BusinessData.SystemSpecific.Wcf.WcfConnectionManager.GetConnection()
at Microsoft.SharePoint.BusinessData.SystemSpecific.Wcf.WcfSystemUtility.ExecuteStatic(IMethodInstance methodInstance, ILobSystemInstance lobSystemInstance, Object[] args, IExecutionContext context) cb34d6ff-663a-4872-9022-21782a7be122
Can you help me on this?
Thanks in advance
Thybu -
Content Server & Knowledge Management
Hi,
I am new to the concept of content server & Knowledge management in CRM.
Cotent server is already installed and I want to configure content server in CRM 7.0. I found some documents on service.sap.com but that describes the configuration of knowledge management.
Can you guys , please let me know, how to configure content server in CRM or any links describing the same would be really helpful.
Thanks,
ManojHi Manoj,
When we are talking about content server & Knowledge management , we generally mean the TREX engine of KM.
As we know KM is a component of SAP Netweaveru2122. It is used for managing unstructured information.Search and Classification (TREX) allows you to configure secure communication between TREX and the application using TREX (for example, SAP Enterprise Portalor SAP Customer Relationship Management).
Hence we configure secure communication between TREX and the application using it (for example, SAP Enterprise Portal or SAP Customer Relationship Management.For achieving the same as u said once installation is done we take HTTPS connectivity or any other depending on client request. TREX is based on a client/server architecture.
http://help.sap.com/saphelp_nw04/helpdata/en/82/0034012008cd41a96d9968c0e8e845/content.htm
https://websmp230.sap-ag.de/sap(bD1lbiZjPTAwMQ==)/bc/bsp/spn/sapnotes/index2.htm?numm=741535
Please check the above links.
Good Luck!
Regards,
Shaila. -
Explanation of Knowledge Management, Content Management...
Hi guys,
I'd like to get some information about Knowledge Management, Content management and their relationship to the Enterprise Portal.. How it can be used in the EP, whether it can work independently... Everything about it..
COuld you send pls some links? I couldn't find any useful ones...
Thanx in advance!
Peter
p.s. Points are guaranteedHi
These links may be useful
http://help.sap.com/saphelp_crm30/helpdata/en/4f/21f738121e2d32e10000000a11405a/frameset.htm
http://help.sap.com/saphelp_ep60sp0/helpdata/en/4a/725b3bad64474ee10000000a114084/content.htm
http://help.sap.com/saphelp_nw04/helpdata/en/4c/9d953fc405330ee10000000a114084/content.htm
Regards
Sai
Message was edited by: Karsten Hohage -
Can I insert pretest questions as knowledge checks between content slides and before a graded quiz without affecting the scoring of the graded quiz? Help documentation states that they should be used before a course begins.
If I use both pretest questions and graded questions, can I also include remedial with return to quiz for both?Sorry, but I gave two workarounds: my preference is custom question slides, but you can also have questions slides where you do not add the score to the Total score. They will not be reported to the LMS and can act as Knowledge slides. Only some quizzing system variables can count all question slides, including the Knowledge slides, but the core variables (score, maximum score, percentage) will be correct. Here some links to my blog, that could help you:
System variables in Captivate 8 - Captivate blog
Intermediate Score Slides - Captivate blog
That each SCORM module can have only one quiz is a SCORM requirement, not a a Captivate specific feature. Camtasia is bit difficult to compare, it is not a fully blown authoring tool although the best video screen capture tool around (video is non interactive by definition). I don't use Storyline, but cannot imagine that they shouldn't create SCORM-compliant files. -
Not able to crawl all items from External content type
Hello All,
"All the records in my external content source are not getting crawled, only 1/3 rd of the data are getting crawled."
Steps:
I created "External content type" using sharepoint designer which connects to a SQL Server database.
Have written a SQL View joining 2 tables, which return 9,00,000 rows when executed using the SQL Server management studio.
I used the default "Business Data Connectivity Service" and "Search Service Application" and made sure the necessary permissions are set.
Created a External Content source for the search service application and selected the "Business Data Connectivity Service" -> "Crawl selected External datasource" -> <my external datasource i created in sharepoint designer>
Issue
When i ran the full crawl for the first time it crawled "3,49,923" records in 01 hour and 07 seconds. And returned 1 error "Error crawling LOB Contents.(Error caused by exception: System.InvalidOperationException. There is an error in XML
document...)
Later i removed the below item from the index and started a full recrawl, this time it crawled "3,49,924" records 1 record extra from my previous crawl
and no errors were returned.
Please let me know what could be the issue. It doesn't look like the permission related issues as i am able to crawl the 1/3rd of my total data. Also i am able to search the crawled data. I also set the throtteling limit for the "Business data catalog"
to -maximum 10000000 -default 1000000 which is less than the data it has to crawl.
SRIRAMHi ,
I started the change suggested in the link shared by you, but got stuck at a point,
The field which i set as identifier in BCS earlier is not having unique values. Total rows returned by the sql view is 899000, but the unique values present in the column that is set as identifier is
3,49,923, which is equal to the number of rows crawled. - Is this the reason why it didnt crawl all records?
The table that is used in the sql view has composite key, - Is it possible to have multiple identifier in BCS as well?
Is it possible to make BCS to ignore the identifier? i mean creating BCS without an identifier column?
Please let me know your suggestions on this.
Thanks,
SRIRAM
Yes, BCS needs a UID. This is so it can figure out changes over time to a single record. Otherwise all changes to a row could be a potential new row without BCS knowing any better.
Yes, or just have it run off the composite key instead of the field you're using now.
Nope, BCS needs a UID field like in answer 1 :)
Good luck!
My CodePlex -
My Blog - My Twitter
Join me at the San Francisco SharePoint User Group!
If this post helped you or answered your question please remember to mark it! :) -
DMS Document Storage in External Content Server
Dear All,
We are working on a DMS scenario, where we need to store the document in an external content server, and not in SAP DB. We are evaluating the solutions around the content server, and we see that SAP provides a HTTP Interface to SAP Content Server, and this interface can be configured through OAC0 and OACT, and managed through CSADMIN. Now, a set of questions:
1. If we intend to use SAP Content Server, do we need to purchase additional license for it? Our understanding is that the software is delivered with SAP Installation DVD, and as such no licensing charges are required.
2. If we DO NOT intend to use SAP Content Server, and rather use an external content server (Possibly utilizing the File System at the OS level as a repository), how will the configuration of OAC0 and OACT look like in such a case? We definitely can not use HTTP Content Server as storage type, How will the entries be organized in this case?
Has anyone worked on a scenario like this? It will be really nice if you can share your experience and expertise in this regard.
Awaiting replies.
Thanks and Sincere Regards,
SidHi Ravindra,
Thanks for the clarification. Do I understand correctly that, for a external content server (without an installation of SAP Content Server) also, we need to specify the storage type as HTTP Content Server ? But in such a case, how will the work processes be handled? As I understand, SAP Content Server engine will handle the incoming/outgoing requests through a Web Server. So, don't we need a similar arrangement for an external content server also? In that case, will the connection parameters be for a HTTP Content Server or for RFC Archive, where we can specify a RFC Destination of type G and connect through it?
Thanks and Regards,
Sid -
Dear All,
We are using SAP ECC 5.0. We want to go for Employee Self Service implementaion. Following are my queries:
Can we implement Knowledge Management, Content Management & Document Management in SAP with EP?
Have any of you impelemented in your organization? How your organization is benefited by this?
What is the roadmap?
If you can provide me the complete details like implementation plan, cost incurred, objectives and time frame and hardware configurations etc it will be of great help to us.
Thanks N Regards
AnandasivaHi dude...yes you can very well implement CM / KM /DM on the portal itself.
You would need to see how the end users of the organisation are going to use the facilities offered by the IT team. If you end users are going to access it to the fullest possible extent then the ROI is pretty high. One of the key benefits of KM is a central repository for obtains business related information also linking of email will give you access to hay wired data in a stream lined fashion. Road map depends on the type of orgainsationj ur implementing the solution, as for me i did it with a logistics company and it was a good sucess...plan your roll outs and training in a mannar where the end users get time to famiarlise them self with the solution.
For costs you might make use of the planner which SAP has...and sizing tools....if you have more queries...then [email protected] is my id...ping me
P.S: Kindly assign points if your query is resolved, also close the question to assist other users narrow the search and find solutions -
Knowledge management Functionality - C4C
Hi ,
I am going to work on C4C project and this my first C4C project with Marketing Sales and Service as part of the scope. Our Client also have knowledge management functionality as part of the legacy. My question or my concern is that I am aware that MIND-TOUCH is knowledge management server which interacts with C4C for the solutions . But currently my client doesn't have any knowledge server to interact with CRM for the solutions.
I would request you to help me on how the actual knowledge management Functionality works and different approaches to achieve this solution.
Thanks for your help.
Regards
MaheshHi,
By integrating an external knowledge base, you enable agents to search for solutions and attach articles to responses without having to leave the workspace. The workspace will also include a list of recommended articles based on an automatic search of the knowledge base using the product and other keywords identified via text analysis as the search parameters.
•You have an external knowledge base that supports the OpenSearch standard with an RSS or Atom based search API.
•You know the URL for the API (from your knowledge base vendor).
•You know the search term input parameter for the API (from your knowledge base vendor).
You have to enable the knowledge base integration from scoping
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Siddhartha -
Knowledge Management Recommended Storage Approach (DB vs Network)?
We are starting a knowledge management initiative within sap portal and cannot find documentation that represents best practices on the actual storage approach. Our pilot project started with storing the documents within the database and it was painfully slow. Since then we have switched to a network storage approach and speed has increased greatly.
My main question is:
Is there a white paper or SAP recommended approach and a list of advantages/disadvantages for going one way or the other (Storing documents in the db vs network drive)
We would like to head down the right path before rolling this out and avoid having to switch direction a month or so down the road.
Thank you in advance for any assistance/feedback,
Todd Simon> Hi Julian,
> Where are you getting your information from? Do
Can't comment on that
> Do you really want your database to store documents.
Yes. But if there are concerns to hold the actual content in the database, there's the DBFS mode to take care of that.
> How big is your database going to be? I don't know
> know any clients that are not using anything but
> FSDB.
Well, I'd advise not to.
Best regards, Julian -
Knowledge management and Collaboration
hello experts,
im trying to configure KMC on portal.
the problem is while doing configurations for creating appointment we need to create a transport(exchange,lotus or DAVXchg).i created a exchange transport where i need to enter
Default exchange server
Logon Domain
IIS server
Exchange server
Port
Can anyone tell me wht exactly i should enter for all these attributes????
Orelse is there any alternative way for configuring CREATE APPOINTMENT?
Thanx in advance.Hi latha raju ,
The following websites wil answer u'r questions:
mySAPu2122 ENTERPRISE PORTAL u2013 KNOWLEDGE MANAGEMENT
http://www7.sap.com/belux/platform/netweaver/enterpriseportal/pdf/50058417_Knowledge_Management.pdf
Knowledge Management is a part of SAP Enterprise Portal
http://help.sap.com/saphelp_nw04/helpdata/en/4c/9d953fc405330ee10000000a114084/frameset.htm
SAP Knowledge Management eLearning Catalog
https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/sdn/km-elearning
Enterprise Knowledge Management
http://help.sap.com/saphelp_nw2004s/helpdata/en/20/b46d42ea0b3654e10000000a155106/frameset.htm
Knowledge Management
https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/sdn/go/portal/prtroot/docs/webcontent/uuid/709664d2-2276-2910-429d-b6a1f5977c8d#section2
KM Navigation iView
http://help.sap.com/saphelp_nw04/helpdata/en/b6/29892e91601940bb7a2cd673a1dff5/content.htm
Content Management in Enterprise Portals
http://www.data.state.mn.us/warehouse/010913_mackey/presentation.pdf
cheers!
gyanaraj
****Pls reward points if u find this helpful
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