ProRes vs HDV, actual advantages?

We have been capturing and editing in HDV. Alot of heavy compositing, motion work, etc. We have been setting the render control to ProRes while working within an HDV timeline.
I have seen a lot of people who capture ProRes right off the bat, and do all their work in ProRes. There are claims that you get better effect handling and editing efficiency by staying in ProRes.
Have there actually been any tests out there that prove I should work entirely in ProRes? rather than just render my HDV timeline as ProRes?
There are so many opinions out there that it is hard to decide what I should do. I have done tests with ProRes vs HDV and I am not noticing drastic differences in working with the two. Yet, when I read on the boards, there are tons of people saying ProRes yields better effects and render times.
I understand the technical issues as to why ProRes is the better format for post-production (long gop, i-frames, etc etc)....but I'm just not actually seeing much of a difference while working between the two formats!
Can anybody convince me with some facts as to why I should work in ProRes as opposed to a ProRes rendered HDV timeline?

I switched totally from HDV to ProRes last year, including even switching to AVCHD cameras (I had a Sony V1U, and now have two Panasonic HMC-150s).
The advantages for me were huge. When shooting HDV on tape, I almost never had a complete one hour MiniDV tape without at least 1 or 2 dropouts. Shooting AVCHD to SDHC cards, I've completed hundreds of hours of footage and never had a single frame dropped.
I log and transfer to FCP using Pro Res right from the start. No waiting for 'Conforming HDV'. I can put my footage on a timeline and start editing right away; much faster and smoother throughout the whole process.
The only disadvantage I can see to ProRes are larger files, but as mentioned above, storage is cheap these days.
I'm not suggesting you should go as far as switching your entire acquisition format (cameras, etc.), but I would at least try capturing your HDV footage as ProRes for one short project, and see if you notice any differences in speed and/or smoother workflow while editing and rendering, etc.

Similar Messages

Rendering in ProRes from HDV

Hello all.
I've captured HDV into ProRes, and made a simple effect - I've distorted the image size to it would like 3D, in order to add slides (I was shooting a presentation with one camera - so I've shot the speaker, and now I have the slides as images. I've imported the images and would like to create the Apple event style look).
Rendering only one instance of that effect will take 2 hours ! Does it make sense? I have a Macbook pro, 2.4, 4GB, 256M graphic card. is rendering such a thing supposed to take so long? is there any way to reduce this rendering time?
Message was edited by: kfirPravda
Message was edited by: kfirPravda

I have a Macbook pro, 2.4, 4GB, 256M graphic card< </div>
That's not much power for what you're trying to do. Another factor is disk access. Do you have an external drive for these huge files? If you're using yoru internal, the read-process-write sequence is taking a huge time hit. If you had to external drives, one for the source media and another for the rendered media, disk access time alone would be cut almost in half.
Open Activity Monitor and see if you can make any sense out of the CPU and RAM usage graphs. Disk Activity is meaningless to me and I've not found an useful assistance for understanding that graph.
bogiesan

Basic 24" iMac 2.8GHz (Penryn) Captures HDV As ProRes In Real Time.

It's OK I'm not claiming any records.
It's just that I have been reading a lot about capturing ProRes from HDV and there are lots of warnings that capture will lag behind real time even with PowerMacs etc.
I was therefore pleasantly surprised to find that my unmodified iMac captured everything in Real Time even though I had 5 other apps open at the same time.
People often ask whether an iMac is suitable for FCP. This in no way is a definitive answer but it does suggest the iMac is certainly no slouch!

Ian R. Brown wrote:
People often ask whether an iMac is suitable for FCP. This in no way is a definitive answer but it does suggest the iMac is certainly no slouch!
Fantastic, Ian!!
Love the photos and I'll wager that pig was awesome. I'm a lifelong carnivore/omnivore and can't imagine a day without bacon.
Yeah, the iMac. No one here has ever doubted it's processing capabilities at all. Where the iMac lacks is with it's abject lack of expansion beyond it's firewire ports and if one goes into that limitation eyes wide open, then there is no reason at all one can't be productive with an iMac.
For whatever it's worth, I'm too timid to capture video with any other application save FCP working.
Zeb

ProRes - how many Gigabytes per hour?

I'm wanting to use ProRes for a project. I'm not sure I'm understanding the articles written about it - which state it has less of a storage footprint than SD? I'm trying to calculate how much storage space I'll need for a project that may have more than 100 hours of material ... if I convert everything to ProRes?
All ears,
Ben

Got my very own Aja calculator. Thank you. To know what the ProRes will require do I set the calculator to NTSC 8 bit (the only SD format I can see in the choices)?
Then you don't have the latest one. The latest one lists PRORES as an option.
the idea of capturing 5-10 hours (in ProRes)
Can't do that with DV and VHS without a capture device. And HDV as ProRes requires special steps.
then 'rendering' out (in ProRes) only the selects to create a new 'media' folder for all the material we might actually USE in the edit... am I being naive?
You are being naive. Sorry...you are throwing around concepts and ideas with no real understanding of them, nor ability to follow them thru. NO capture card...no ProRes. HDV as ProRes, yes, but that's it. BetaSP requires a capture card too.
You need to figure out a LOT of things here...especially if you will be working with HD and SD sources. A lot of ducks to get in a row. And you will need to start investing in more hardware if you want to get serious about this. Or you can capture as DV and use Compressor to upconvert later...and spend weeks doing it.
There is WAY too much to go into on a forum post...
Shane

I've looked but can't find - constant re-render in ProRes - suicidal!

Aaaaaargh!!!!!
Sorry about that. But I am going nuts here. Yes, ProRes is a groovy thing... but Heavens to Betsy why does it need to be re-rendered every time you add a clip or make a transition? This is supposed to be an intermediary edit format - not a lesson in Zen-like patience. Am I doing something wrong? I capture from 1080/60i HDV as ProRes 422. I am working on a MacBook Pro 2.33 ghz dual core Intel Processor running OS 10.64. In addition to the video I have music and a few still graphic images... nothing outrageous. At this rate 16mm film and a flatbed were quicker (including all the lab time). I have a suspicion this might be one of those "oh, so you're not a millionaire issues... you can easily fix this with money!" Please, somebody tell me this isn't so!

So could it be the .jpgs?
Picture files always need to be rendered.
The video clips don't need to render when I first add them to the timeline - just if I move them from one spot to another (you know - like editing).
Makes no sense. If you add them, and there is no rendering needed, how could MOVING them cause them to need to be rendered?
I checked the format in "Item Properties" and it shows the compressor as HDV 1080i60. If I encoded it as ProRes (from HDV 1080i60 source) shouldn't the compressor show it as being ProRes?
Yes. So it appears that you captured as HDV by mistake.
Shane

Some ProRes clips are off when XML sent to Color

Hey guys, I have a timeline which I have tried exporting an XML and also using "Send to Color" but having an issue with both methods. My timeline is a mix of ProRes 422, AIC codec, 1080P scaled to 720P and 720p native footage. Alot of the footage is RED footage which I have rendered to 720 and 1080 ProRes. I also have HDV footage which has been captured in ProRes and AIC. The RED ProRes footage and HDV footage in AIC I am having no problem with. It's ONLY the HDV which was captured to ProRes. When I pull the timeline into Color, all the HDV ProRes footage has slipped for some reason. I can't figure out why the HDV ProRes is doing that. Everything about it seems to be right. In fact, the only difference I can see between the RED ProRes and HDV ProRes is that the RED stuff is at 7.2mb a second compared to 6.8mb for HDV.
Does anyone have a clue why this is happening and how to fix it? I've got Color 1.51.
Thanks,
Matthew

You haven't mentioned anything about the base framerate of the project.
How did you transcode the media?
And while mixing codecs, resolutions and frame dominances on a sequence sent to COLOR is not strictly speaking an open invitation to disaster, it is the next best thing.
COLOR does not look at source time codes for its I/O points. It calculates those by counting frames from a known point (usually the beginning of the source clip way back there in your Capture Scratch directory, for instance) and making an educated guess about that based on the project frame rate.
That's one of the reasons why keyframes are not successful on speed adjusted media.
There also could have been some kind of error built in on the transcode, where the HDV i-frame could have been misinterpreted.
jPo

HDV to Pro Res 422 HQ, how would you do it?

I am shortly going to short some HDV 1080' and deliver it to the customer after I've edited it, on a hard disc as Pro Res 422 HQ 1920 x 1080.
Last time I simply ingested the HDV in the normal way and exported to Pro Res using "make Quick Time Movie".
Should I have injested the footage from HDV, direct to Pro Res 422 HQ and edited this and then outputed the Pro Res 422 HQ edit master? In other words did I needlessly encode the material twice when I did it before?

Why can't I simply change the "Capture settings" to Pro Res HQ?
Because FCP doesn't do that via firewire. The data rate is too high. It only does ProRes 422 via firewire.
Now you are getting into professional workflows, and for that you need professional hardware.
Why do I need to sling my Macbook Pro in the bin and start all over again, because I presume a capture card wont go in a laptop.
You presume incorrectly. The Matrox MXO2 and MXO2 LE will work on a laptop just fine. I use my MXO2 all the time on mine. BUT...here's the rub. You can't capture 1920x1080 29.97 at ProRes HQ. Well, you can, but not for long durations. Because the encoding of that needs to be handled by the processor, and you need at least a Quad Core to do that, laptops are Dual core. BUT, you can get the AJA IO HD, that works on a laptop too, and has a ProRes encoder built in. Issue is that it is $3400, while the MXO2 LE is $1000 (that encoder adds a lot).
I think it would be best to capture as HDV, then use the Media Manager to Recompress to ProRes HQ. Because they might want full raster ProRes and HDV>ProRes gets you anamorphic ProRes. I believe the Media Manager will make it Full Raster. As will Compressor.
Shane

Trying to convert ProRes 4444 footage

Hi. I have footage on my imac G5 non-Intel which is Prores 4444. I don't have Final Cut. Two questions: 1) is there a way to convert the Prores ftge to a format that can be edited in my imovie? Would anyone know what converter to use? 2) If I get Final Cut express, will it handle the ProRes 4444 footage, and also, is the Final Express color correction good enough to do straight ahead color correction? Much appreciated.

SoaringFalcon wrote:
Hi. I have footage on my imac G5 non-Intel which is Prores 4444. I don't have Final Cut. Two questions: 1) is there a way to convert the Prores ftge to a format that can be edited in my imovie? Would anyone know what converter to use? 2) If I get Final Cut express, will it handle the ProRes 4444 footage, and also, is the Final Express color correction good enough to do straight ahead color correction? Much appreciated.
# 1) yes, try the new video converter (I tried it, special feature of it is to support Apple ProRes Codec, HDV Codec, Avid DNxHD Codec, Apple Intermediate codec,etc.)
for importing the converted video to iMovie, just use a QuickTime format AIC(Apple Intermediate codec)
IMG:
( /___sbsstatic___/migration-images/128/12842301-1.jpg )
check it here: http://www.foxreal.com/video-converter-mac
Happy New year!

HDV 1440 x 1080 24P question?

My client has just given me 52 GB of HDV 1440 x 1080i 24P raw footage, on an external drive to edit a short 12 min short film. I’m using my old Power Mac G5 / 2GB memory with FCP 6.0.6 and was wondering what’s best to convert the HDV footage to.
Should I convert to Pro Ress 422, or could I just edit it natively? I’m not sure what my best option. Will my computer handle this? I’m planning to do color correction and some multi-layering with special effects. The client wants to use the short film to enter at local film festivals.
Can anyone guide me in the right direction?
Thanking you in advance

Should I convert to Pro Ress 422, or could I just edit it natively?
You must convert to ProRes. HDV is recorded as Long GOP MPEG2 and is not a viable editing codec.
Link: [Working with HDV in Final Cut Pro|http://documentation.apple.com/en/finalcutpro/professionalformatsandworkflo ws/#chapter=2%26section=0]

DV vs HDV workflow

I've done a bunch of editing of DV/DVCAM footage on my FCP system. I might be editing a HDV project and I've never edited in HDV, actually I've never edited anything other than DVCAM in FCP.
Final output hasn't been decided yet, but it will be BEFORE I begin editing. Right now our options are to edit in HDV for DVD output, edit in HDV and downconvert w/letterboxing to SD, or acquire in SD for SD output w/ letterbox.
Which workflow would be the best and which will cause the least number of headaches.
Also, equipment wise what else will i need. I think I'm good except for just a Camera/Deck.
Thanks
Full Specs: Quad 2.5Ghz PowerPC G5 w/ 4GB DDR SDRAM & OS-X v 10.4.6 & FCS 5.1, 500GB G-Raid (FW800), DSR-45 (FW400)

Depending on the amount of footage and your HD space available, it would be best to edit and finish in HDV before doing your outputs. Just need a camera/deck to digitize the footage. May want to get a HD card for video monitoring + HD broadcast monitor.

Advantage of md_backup 11gR2

Hello,
Can someone please share the actual advantage of md_backup / md_restore.
<< This will backup the metadata of each asm diskgroup (disks,directories,asm operations e.t.c) but not the Data with the ASM disk. In case of disk failure or disk corruption we can do the md_restore to restore the metadata. But still we need to restore the database using RMAN backup. >>
When we need to do the full database restore, then what is the advantage of md_backup/md_restore ?
In case of diskgroup failure, I can create new diskgroup and do the RMAN full database restore.
Thanks,
Raju

nraju wrote:
Hello,
Can someone please share the actual advantage of md_backup / md_restore.
<< This will backup the metadata of each asm diskgroup (disks,directories,asm operations e.t.c) but not the Data with the ASM disk. In case of disk failure or disk corruption we can do the md_restore to restore the metadata. But still we need to restore the database using RMAN backup. >>
When we need to do the full database restore, then what is the advantage of md_backup/md_restore ?
In case of diskgroup failure, I can create new diskgroup and do the RMAN full database restore.
Thanks,
Raju
What is the advantage?
You said it yourself .... "In case of disk failure or disk corruption we can do the md_restore to restore the metadata"
You said "In case of diskgroup failure, I can create new diskgroup". Yes, and md_restore makes that easier to accomplish.

How to export HDV interlaced project as progressive?

Hello guys,
I have finished my video. It is sitting on my interlaced timeline waiting for export.
The video was shot and edited in HDV 1440 x 1080 i 60. Timeline settings are the same as video settings.
If I export it using Quick Time movie, I will end up with HDV 1440 x 1080 i 60 file with .mov file.
But how can I obtain HDV 1440 x 1080 30 progressive .mov file?

When you Export to QuickTime Movie, you don't have to use Current Settings. You can export to anything, including HDV 1080p30. However, this will merely set the field dominance of the exported movie to "None".
To get a progressive result you'll need to de-interlace your sequence with the "De-Interlace" filter. To avoid filtering every clip in your sequence, Nest your sequence first, then apply the filter to the nested sequence. Option-double-click the nested sequence to load it in the Viewer, then access the Filter tab and try the different de-interlacing options. Flicker Filter (max) gives the smoothest (but a slightly softer) result.
Finally, Export to QuickTime Movie, choosing a 1440x1080p30 preset. ProRes and HDV are your options here. However, only go back to HDV if you're:
a) Exporting back to HDV tape
b) Producing an HD-DVD disc with DVD Studio Pro
c) Needing to keep a relatively small file for archiving purposes
d) Not applying many effects or colour correction filters
If you're going to recompress or treat your sequence further, you'll probably want to export to ProRes 422 as an intermediate format. You'll probably also want to look at the Render settings under Sequence Settings and set the render codec to ProRes 422 for the same reason.
HDV native editing is great for most purposes. However, if you're colour correcting or using heavy effects (like a De-Interlace on every frame!) you can avoid recompression artifacts by rendering and exporting in ProRes.
If you really want the progressive look, try to shoot progressive in the first place. The Canon HV40 will do a great job if you're on a tight budget.

Framework order Advantages

What are the advantages of using FO over a regular PO?. *The basic answer everyone says is, it can be used for a prolonged time and we can refer that blanket PO and do multiple ML81N's *
But, we can create a regular PO and do multiple ML81s for that and no need of blanket po's. So, why do we need to go for Blanket PO's?. What is the actual advantage of using Blanket POS (vs) regular po.
Help appreciated.
Thanks,
Sylvia

In SAP, Blanket Purchase Orders refer to the business process where you have a Purchase Order with a validity period (start / end date) and a limit on the item. No Goods Receipt takes place. Payment is triggered by Invoice.
Multiple invoices can be processed. Main point is that invoices must be processed within the validity period specified in PO. The total value of invoices must also not exceed the limit spesified in PO item. The validity period is spesified on PO Header Level, while the Limit is on Item level. The creation of Purchase requisition is Optional.
Purchase Requisitions doesn't have validity period fields, although the limit can be specified on item level. So if users create PR's then they could type the validity period simply as text in one of the long text fields.
During invoicing, if the date is outside validity period or the amount is bigger, either a Warning or Error will occur. This setting is done in customising.
Examples on where this business process can be used include: Services: example buying flowers, travel. Perticular if the receipt process is not very formalised. It is also sometimes used for utilities (water, electricity...).
In the Limits tab of PO line item,The Overall Limit is the value that will be used to in the check during invoicing. If Commitment is switched on in Costing, the Expected value is the value of the commitment against in this case the Cost Centre. The actual will be posted during invoicing.
Account assignment is mandatory in the PO, so this process is non stock purposes only. Stock can not be procured using this method (For stock a GR is required).
Because no Goods Receipt (GR) will take place, the GR indicator will be switched off when the item category is selected

HDV Tapes better than MiniDV?

Can anyone attest to the more expensive HDV Tapes delivering better quality and/or reliability than regular miniDV tapes. They both record in HDV so is it just a marketing scheme?

I mostly agree with your comment, David. But just a reminder to HDV videographers that a "dropout" in HDV may well be more than a frame or two, but rather as much as 1/2 second depending on where in the GOP it occurs. When I used to use Premium, the couple of dropouts I did see were recovered upon repeated "recapturing" of a few seconds around the area. I always eventually got it. But that was enough to convince me when I went to HDV (actually a bit before that), to spend the extra $$$ on Excellence where I've had zero dropouts (knock on wood).
But then, I'm not a professional and don't go through as much tape stock as someone who is: I do about three plays a year (in addition to the usual birthday/christmas/vacation family stuff) with three cams, so about 9 to 18 tapes per event (two hour plays with inconvenient tape change spots, so three tapes per camera per performance; I always wind up shoot two performances), so that's only about 200 tapes in the last 6 years worth of plays.
I never reuse tapes, either, and other than for stuff you can readily re-film would recommend against reuse.
Eddie O

Using ProRes

Hi,
I was given advice in another thread to use ProRes to improve performance. I didn't know what that was or even really what a codec was but I've been reading up on it so I have some more questions now.
1. I discovered how to transcode clips in the Event Library by right-clicking on the clip. Will this get automatically applied to clips in the timeline? I'm mostly done editing a project but it's going very slowly at this point because it's gotten fairly complex.
2. So from what I've been reading ProRes is a lossy codec but export codecs are lossier, so using ProRes won't actually change the end quality at all if, for example, I'm putting this online or on a DVD or something. Is this correct?
Thanks for the help.
Dave

This is my pet simple explanation of ProRes 422.
(I was confused by it for years, but a Ripple Training tutorial on MultiCam Editing finally cleared it up for me).
Most video cameras use very high compression to store media on cards or tape. If the native camera files you are working with play back and edit well with FCP X, strictly speaking, you don't need to transcode to ProRes (but it helps - especially if you have multiple camera angles and effects, titles etc - and with colour correction).
If your playback is problematic, it's best to transcode the material. You can do this at any time. ProRes 422 is not so highly compressed as native camera footage, so it's far easier for your Mac to play it back (not so much unpacking to do). The downside of the footage being lightly compressed is that it takes a lot more disk space.
If disk space is at a premium, use Proxy. Native 1920 x 1080 footage becomes 960 x 540 when converted to ProRes Proxy, so it this takes a fraction of the disk space but is much lower quality. This is absolutely fine for editing - but you must remember to choose 'Optimised or Original Footage' in FCP X Preferences before you export otherwise you'll export 960 x 540.
I use some XDCAM EX footage from a couple of Sony EX1 Rs and some H.264 from a Canon 5D mk2. Until recently, I edited the XDCAM footage natively but I transcode the H.264. Now I'm using Proxy more - especially for multicam editing.
I sincerely hope your Projects, Events and Media are on a fast (Firewire 800) external HD (Formatted OS Extended). Keeping them on your system drive makes it difficult for your Mac to operate. It's also a very good idea to hide Audio Waveforms in your Timeline when you don't need them. They waste a lot of processor power.
Andy

ProRes vs HDV, actual advantages?

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