RAW, JPEG,camera rendering and profiles

I am an amateur photographer and extensively use many Adobe products including Lightroom 2.4 and Photoshop CS4. Several years ago I made a decision to shoot all my pictures in Raw and use Lightroom to convert to JPEG’s. I started converting them all to DNG’s at one point but finally didn’t see much benefit to that. I appreciate the flexibility and adjustability available with a RAW file format. Up until now I thought that was a good decision. Recently after reading many articles I decided to change to Adobe RGB instead of my Canon 30D’s default format of sRGB. I also changed to recording all images in both Raw and JPEG format at least temporarily to see how it might affect my workflow. I imported both files into Lightroom and was very surprised to see the difference between the RAW image and JPEG image. The raw image was in my opinion dull and unappealing. The JPEG image was vibrant, brighter and definitely more appealing to my eye. Curious, I got online and started reading all the articles, tech notes and Blogs about the difference between RAW and JPEG and to quote one article “Lightroom will not match your cameras rendering when working with raw files as it’s just raw data, but you can use the new profiles to emulate the manufacturer’s look for some cameras, or you can build your own profile to match.” I tried several experiments on my Canon going back to sRGB to see it didn’t make any difference. I tried all the standard Lightroom camera profiles and none of them matched the JPEG image. After working for about 15 minutes I was finally able to get the raw image to closely match the JPEG image but it has me thinking. Do I really want to spend the time on ALL my raw images to match the JPEG image? I understand I can create custom profiles but from want I read every image will be different based on the white balance, color tones etc. What really puzzled me is that when I compare my raw and JPEG images using other image viewers the images are identical??? This includes a Canon application (I can understand that) but also a third party application such as FastStone Image Viewer which will read Canon Raw files. The images are identical. This should not be this difficult! How can FastStone interpret Canon raw files better that Adobe? Is it really true that the camera rendering is not imbedded in Canon’s own raw file format? I really don’t what to have to record all images in raw and JPEG and have to deal and store duplicate files for the rare time the raw format gives me better adjustability that JPEG. I appreciate any and all thoughts on this subject.

Again thanks for your help on this. I want to understand it.
I took two new pictures. The camera was set to record both RAW and JPEG maximum quality. House with reddish bricks, flowers in front, green grass and trees and blue skies with clouds. Pretty standard stuff. On the first set the camera was set on standard picture style. The second was set on faithful. I reset many of the Lightroom defaults. The ones that I though mattered.
There is still differences easily distinguishable between the raw files and JPEG files. Take a look at the 4 histograms:
Raw file standard style.
JPEG Standard style:
Raw Faithful style:
JPEG Faithful style:
Any thoughts?

Similar Messages

RAW + JPEG Import Settings Confusion

I recently bought a new camera which allows me to shoot in RAW and RAW+JPEG mode. I have at present set it to the latter, partially to be safe, and also for allowing quick image loading when out and about and can quickly upload the JPEG files to my ipad.
But having just purchased Aperture 3, I am really confused over the RAW+Separate import brick's choices.
I really cannot work out which is the best option,
Both (Raw as Master),
Both (JPEG As Master),
Both (Separate Masters) or
Just RAW.
I have been reading a book called "Aperture 3 Portable Genius, but to be honest, it has only made things even more confusing!
Can someone please advise which are the best settings to use, and under what circumstances I would use the particular setting.
Thanks :-)

"best settings to use" is hard to answer, since it depends what kind of photography you're doing and how you like to work.
It might be useful to understand that if you import 'jpeg as master' aperture treats the jpeg/master pair as one entity. When you edit the photo in AP you'll be editing the jpeg. If you want to get to the RAW, you'll have to choose "Set Raw as Master". Vice-Versa if you import 'raw as master'.
If you import 'both (separate masters)' you'll see both jpeg and raw in AP as 2 separate files which can be edited separately. I've never actually used this option, so I could be wrong about that.
I guess the first thing to decide is which format you most want to work with in Aperture. If you only want to work with RAW in AP, then choose 'RAW files only'. In this scenario the only reason you're shooting raw+jpeg is for the quick upload to iPad.
Maybe it would help if I explain how/why I use pairs. I shoot a lot of architectural interiors and most of the time I work closely with an art director who needs to see what the shots are looking like as the session proceeds. I shoot raw+jpeg for this and send the jpegs to my laptop over wi-fi for review. This is the *only* reason I'm shooting pairs, as the tiny jpeg makes the journey so much quicker than the large raw and is of sufficient quality for the purpose. I have the camera set to produce the smallest jpeg possible for fastest transfer.
Back at base I'll import the raw files only. Even if I was using a higher resolution jpeg I'd still only import raw. For me it's what Aperture is all about, and unlike say... wedding photography, this type of shoot is low volume so there's no advantage in working with jpeg, and many advantages in working with raw.
Actually, I use another import option for pairs: 'matching Raw files only'. This is a huge timesaver. It means that during the shoot we can rate the photos (jpegs) as we go, and I'm only importing the raws that meet that rating. IE I don't have to import the entire shoot and try to remember which lighting set-up (for eg) the director liked best.
Hope that helps. Also, take a look under "more like this" upper right on this page. Some good stuff in there.
Charles

Importing both JPEGS and Raw Files with RAW+JPEG In-Camera Setting...

I normally shoot with the RAW+JPEG on my cameras, but Aperture only imports the CR2 file.
What gives?

Nevermind:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=304868
Thanks!

Different colors from RAW+JPEG mode of my camera

The same issue of always... color profile.
I shot my entire trip thru Europe using RAW + JPEG Basic mode of my Nikon D40 digital camera. Oddly, the JPEG files are looking MUCH MUCH better, because iPhoto assigned the correct color profile to the files, instead of signing all RAW files as Adobe RGB. (I have Adobe RGB option on my camera, but I shot as sRGB).
I tried installing Aperture trial to reprocess all RAW files and no success. Looking RAW and JPEG side by side makes me sad.
What should I do to make iPhoto recognize my RAW files as sRGB?
Sorry for posting this again... I read more than 20 threads about color issues and I didnt managed how to fix my problem.

Hi Dave,
yes, thats generally what i want to do.
I have the PEF-Files out of my camera and i convert them with the Adobe DNG converter to the DNG format. The old Pentax K100D is using uncompressed PEF, thats why the pictures are twice the size than the converted DNG
If i import these files for further processing into Lightroom, they are looking similar to the originals viewed with another application (e.g. the pentax development tool) for a second, after that Lightroom is changing the preview to the settings of the Adobe Profile. Colors are much more colder and less colorful. If i try to change the profile in the developement tab, there are no visible changes to the picture.
I've downloaded the DNG Converter and Camera RAW. There are several profiles included, but i don't know how to use them with Lightroom or Photoshop CS4 (with installed ACR).
I've created a screenshot of the differencies so you know what i mean.
Screenshot
On the left side you can see the developed JPEG via PEF out of the Pentax-Software (Silkypix), on the right is the developed JPEG out of the DNG via Lightroom. Both files are without any further changes to the development process.
The left picture corresponds to the original conditions.

Shooting raw+jpeg and replicating treatment

If you shoot raw+jpeg and happen to like the jpeg treatment of a given shot, is there a way to precisely replicate or transfer the jpeg pp parameters to the raw? Not by eye, but precisely.

Jao vdL wrote:
The only way to get perfectly the same rendering is to use Canon's software.
While technically true, in practice, not so much...
The first and most important thing one must grasp (and accept) is there is no such thing as "correct" when it comes to rendering raw files...the raw sensor data is something that is subject to interpretation...it;s like shooting a color neg–the best interpretation may not be the most "accurate" nor "technically correct".
If you fall in love with the JPEG rendering, you will find life somewhat frustrating if you use Camera Raw or Lightroom because as pointed out above, if you are trying to "match"" (as in accurately replicating the exact tone and color) the rendering produced by Canon or Nikon, you're life will, essentially suck...because matching the EXACT rendering in ACR/LR is not going to be a pleasurable experience–it's doable but the question you gotta ask, is it worth it?
Shooting Raw & JPEG is an exercise in futility...you either get quick and easy JPEGs you can use (with zero chance matching them in ACR) or raw fles that you can control the rendering on (but pretty much forget matching the JPEG exactly)...
You would be better off shooting raw and learning how to render out JPEGs quickly that WILL match the raw files (cause they are based from the raw files).

New Nikon D3, D300, and D700 "Camera" v3 beta profiles

Hi everyone,
I have posted a zip file containing updated "Camera" color profiles (Camera Standard, Camera Neutral, etc.) for the Nikon D3, Nikon D300, and Nikon D700. The zip file contains a copy of the readme, but I'll post it here for convenience, too:
For lack of a better name, I am calling these "v3" beta profiles.
BETA RELEASE NOTES
Overview
These updated Camera v3 beta profiles for the Nikon D3, Nikon D300, and Nikon D700 are designed to reduce banding and highlight color artifacts. They also address the "too bright" tone curve issues with the previous "v2" version of the D3 and D700 profiles.
IMPORTANT NOTE: When using these v3 beta profiles, if you wish to match the default tonality of Nikon's Picture Controls (e.g., match View NX / Capture NX), you must set the Exposure slider in Camera Raw / Lightroom to -0.5.
Of course, feel free to adjust Exposure to make your image brighter or darker as you like. But in terms of matching Nikon's default tonality, you must set the Exposure slider to -0.5, or the default will be too bright.
For workflow convenience, you can use presets in Camera Raw / Lightroom to take care of both (e.g., simultaneously set the profile to "Camera Standard" and set Exposure to -0.5).
Installation
If you are on Mac OS X, drag the "Camera v3 beta" folder to:
    /Library/Application Support/Adobe/CameraRaw/CameraProfiles
If you are on Windows XP, drag the "Camera v3 beta" folder to:
    C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\Adobe\CameraRaw\CameraProfiles
If you are on Windows Vista or Windows 7, drag the "Camera v3 beta" folder to:
    C:\ProgramData\Adobe\CameraRaw\CameraProfiles
Note that the above path on Windows Vista and Windows 7 may be hidden by default. Check your folder settings.
Feedback
The profiles are currently in beta status. Please provide feedback via the online Adobe user-to-user forums here:
http://forums.adobe.com/community/cameraraw
http://forums.adobe.com/community/lightroom
Thank you!

Vit Novak wrote:
It's because ACR assumes that exposure slider at 0 actually means exposure correction of +0.5 EV for this camera model, so with expsure slider at 0, upper 0.5 EV of histogram is clipped
If this bothers you, there is a workaround - convert NEF to DNG, then change BaselineExposure tag in a dng from 0.5 to 0. There are several utilities for this
Or wait for some future version of ACR where this will be solved
The BaselineExposure used by the DNG spec and ACR can complicate ETTR exposure. A uniformly lit surface, when exposed as determined by the standard ISO light meter, should result in 0.18/sqrt(2) or 12.7% saturation of the sensor according to the ISO 12232 saturation standard. This is the standard used by DXO and it allows 0.5 EV highlight headroom. For ETTR exposure, no (or minimum) headroom is desired and mid-gray (18% reflection) is 2.5 stops below 100%.
For example, I exposed a gray card according to the camera light meter reading with the Nikon D3. The resulting 12 bit data number was 497 and the saturation is 497/4095 = 12.1 % saturation, which is very close to the expected value of 12.7%, confirming that the light meter and sensor are properly calibrated. The corresponding pixel value in 8 bit sRGB is 99.8 as shown.
The raw file can be rendered into sRGB with in camera processing or Nikon NX2, which closely approximates in camera processing. With the Standard Picture Control, the camera sRGB value is 150. This is a hot tone curve and the a highlight with 100% reflectance would be clipped. The table below shows the results with ACR and various presets. If one uses the Adobe Standard camera profile, the sRGB value is 162 rather than the expected 99.8 Other combinations are shown. To get the proper value for mid-gray one must use a linear tone curve (sliders on main tab set to zero and a linear point curve) and an exposure correction of -0.5 EV to compensate for the +0.5 EV BaselineExposure. With no exposure correction and a linear TRC, the sRGB value would be 116, very close to the calculated sRGB value of 117 for mid-gray (18%). However, the linear TRC gives a flat appearing image.
The take home point is that if you use Adobe Standard with no exposure compensation with ETTR, your images will appear overexposed and lead to cutting back on the camera expoure. The raw file highlights will have values well under sensor saturation.

PS CS3, Camera Raw 4.6 Update and Nikon D810 NEF File Reading Issue

Currently Have Photoshop CS3 & Adobe Bridge CS3 2.1.1.9.
According to Adobe, Camera Raw 4.6 supports Nikon D810 NEF files. I have downloaded Camera Raw 4.6 Update. When
I try to open Nikon D810 NEF files, I get Photoshop CS3 error that says
"cannot complete request your because it is not the right kind of
document. These NEF files wont open in Adobe Bridge at all. What am I doing wrong?

Hey,
Before I purchased, let me get your thoughts on another option that just occurred to me which involves:
1)Editing my D810 NEF files in LR 5.6, which I have, then exporting/saving the edited files as JPEGs.
2) Doing any additional editing, as necessary (i.e. that might require layering or selections..etc) , with the JPEGs with Bridge or PS CS3.
This method wont involve any additional software purchase now.. right? Am I missing anything. here? Since my final output to my customers are JPEGs any way, wont this work? Will I be at any disadvantage. Am I missing anything. here?
From: ssprengel <[email protected]>
To: charles cash <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 6, 2014 9:49 AM
Subject: PS CS3, Camera Raw 4.6 Update and Nikon D810 NEF File Reading Issue
PS CS3, Camera Raw 4.6 Update and Nikon D810 NEF File Reading Issue created by ssprengel in Adobe Camera Raw - View the full discussion
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Photo Stream only supports JPEG, PNG, TIFF and RAW files.

I'm using Panasonic LX3 with its RAW format (a supported RAW format since sometimes with iPhoto '09 already)
When I choose to Photo Stream my images after import with iPhoto '11, it says "Photo Stream only supports JPEG, PNG, TIFF and RAW files."
My files are RAW formats so why can't I photo stream it?!
Is there something I can get around or need to wait for Apple to support this?!

You don;t have a preset set. What you are seeing is normal behavior when importing Raw files.
What you see at first is the camera produced JPG preview imbedded in the Raw file. Aperture puts this up while it decodes the actual Raw data. This JPG has all the special settings and enhancements set on the camera and is basically the image that would be produced if you were shooting JPG.
As a rule none of the settings on the camera (apart from the basics) are applied to the Raw file though some of the newer cameras have settings that could affect the data stored in the Raw file.
This is a often asked question by those just getting into Raw and you can search the discussions here for other answers to this question.
Given the capability of today's cameras, especially the high-end ones, a lot of users have decided to abandon Raw as unnecessary if they are happy with the images the camera produces. It's all a matter of personal needs.
regards

Raw + JPEG : How do you view only the Camera Raw?

Hi there,
Here's my problem.... I started importing many of my pictures (shot Camera Raw + JPEG) using the import window. Using the import window caused both the Camera Raw and the Jpeg to appear side by side in any album. Later on, I accidentally discovered that if I dragged a folder with the Raw + JPEG files into the aperture library, the Jpegs would be hidden from site. However, they would appear when I used the "export masters" command, which is exactly what I want (to see one image, but have the Jpegs hidden). I don't want to confuse and clutter things by having side by side duplicate photos in my albums. Is there any way to go back and retroactively make it so that only the camera raw pictures are displayed in a case of Raw +Jpeg? I don't want to erase the original Jpegs created by the camera either. There must be a way to do this.
Any help here would be appreciated. Thanks.
G5 Mac OS X (10.4.8)

Hi Cliff,
If you don't mind using Automater Actions, the following link will allow you to separate your .jpeg from your RAW files. I have not personally used/tested it because Aperture does not currently support the Nikon D80 RAW files yet. However, when they do, I will certainly give it a try. I hope this helps! Don
http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/automator/separatejpegs.html

Nikon Camera Raw & JPEG

I have had LR since it's inception - however because of Adobe's resistance to using the JPG in the RAW files and applying the in camera se3ttings - I have not used it. I have since signed up for the Cloud Services and LR is once again on the desktop - I thought I would attempt to try it again, figuring after 5 versions Adobe might get a clue?
So I ask again - all the work I have in adjusting my incamera settings to the "exact" profiles I need - is there a way for LR5 to use the in RAW JPG and in camera settings?
Some have asked int he past why I need these...its actually very simple - as a photo journalist, I shoot and send to my publisher without edits. Yes, I can shoot RAW+JPG, but editors and publishers are asking for raw files now and sometimes I need to make lighting tweaks before sending - so...having the ability to use my profiles (that I have spent years working with) - I vertually have to start all over if I have edits to make?

csgaraglino wrote:
Some have asked int he past why I need these...its actually very simple - as a photo journalist, I shoot and send to my publisher without edits.
In which case they will not see what you had dialled in as the in-camera settings unless they also use the manufacturer's converter.
This is a totally bogus "issue": no converters respect manufacturer's in-camera settings apart from the manufacturer's converters, or - maybe - those using the manufacturer's SDK (Photodirector being the only one I know of that uses Canon and Nikon SDKs, and it isn't a great converter - and I don't believe it respects camera settings anyway), so whatever you think you're denying your publisher by Lr not using the camera's settings, you're wrong - they're missing nothing.
What you're demanding isn't possible, because even Lr could read that you had (say) "NR 5", or whatever other in camera setting had an apparent analogue in Lr, the "5" would mean different things to the manufacturer and Adobe; and the algorithm that the setting relates to would be different in the camera/manufacturer's converter, and in Lr.
DJ and Jim are right on the money: you're very wide of the mark in your understanding of how converters work.
is there a way for LR5 to use the in RAW JPG and in camera settings?
No. Not in Lightroom, not in Capture One, not in Photo Ninja, not in ACDSee Pro 6, not in any commercially-available converter unless it comes from the camera maker.
Fundamental, basic stuff.

Aperture and shooting Raw+Jpeg

In camera Jpeg processing becomes better and better with each generation of cameras. One example is the dynamic range optimizer in my Sony A700. You often have a hard time to get similar results from the Raw. So for quite a lot of shots - especially the not so important ones - using just the Jpegs is a real time saver. Still it is good to have the Raw handy in case the camera processing went in the wrong direction, which still happens occasionally. With 8 or 16 GB cards it is not an issue meanwhile to shoot Raw+Jpeg. Unfortunately IMO there is no smooth Raw+Jpeg workflow within Aperture. Especially it is almost impossible to delete the Raw without loosing the Jpeg and vice versa in a managed library (see thread mentioned below).
Thus I just posted this to www.apple.com/feedback. If you think this is an important issue, that should be added in a future version of Aperture, you might sent your feedback as well:
It is nice, that Aperture already imports both pictures, if you shoot in Raw+Jpeg mode. But the further workflow of dealing with the Raw+Jpeg combo is not optimal:
The main reason to shoot Raw + Jpeg is, to save time in using the ready processed Jpegs for the less important shots or the ones, where the in-camera processing left not much to improve, but still having the safety-net of the Raw for a more advanced development, in case the picture asks for it.
So instead of showing the Raws and hiding the Jpegs by default it should be vice versa. If there is a Jpeg accompanying the Raw, the Jpeg should be displayed and the Raw should be hidden. At least you should be able to set in the preferences, whether you prefer to see the Raw or the Jpeg. If you realize while rating the picture or doing adjustments, that the Jpeg doesn't fit the bill, you should be able to give precedence to the Raw, aka showing the Raw and hiding the Jpeg.
After having finished the work, you should be able to either delete or archive the not used version (either Raw or Jpeg), without loosing any metadata or adjustments already applied to the other version.
Currently it is an extremely complex task, to get rid of the unused version. Workarounds are suggested in this thread: http://www.oreillynet.com/digitalmedia/blog/2007/09/gettingrid_of_unwanted_manage1.html
Peter

SierraDragon wrote:
I am unfamiliar with Sony DSLRs and do not know what might make a Sony JPEG visually equal to a Sony RAW image file.
What I refer to is the dynamic range optimizer, which is based on Apical’s IRIDIX image processing engine. I think it is used in recent Nikons as well, but as I have only a Sony DSLR I mentioned this.
Basically it is a kind of highlights and shadows adjustment, but it works very well and in many cases you have a hard time to generate similar good results with your RAW processor (aka. Aperture).
However, JPEG is still a lossy image format that IMO should only be used for low end usages. RAW converted by the camera vendor's software to non-lossy formats like TIFF should generally be quite superior to JPEG.
Of cause the RAW holds more information and carefully processed often leads to better results than the in-camera JPEGs. But not every picture will be printed in poster size. And although JPEG is a lossy format, with a low compression setting the artifacts are almost undetectable at least with my DSLR.
Shooting in RAW+Jpeg mode can be a real timesaver. You look at the Jpegs firsthand, rate them, make small adjustments, if neccessary. For the majority of the pictures you can use these Jpegs even for slideshows and prints. If you step over a picture, where the in-camera processing went wrong, like oversharpened, oversaturated picture with wrong WB etc., you can easily resort to the accompanying RAW and process it to your heart's content. The only drawback with this workflow is the increased temporary storage capacitiy you need. But with today's low memory card prices, the benefits outweigh the cost by far IMHO.
That said, the reason for my post was not to discuss the benefits of a RAW+Jpeg workflow, but Aperture's issues in dealing with it.
Peter

How to Save Camera Calibration and Lens Correction in Camera raw 6.1

I downloaded and installed the Camera Raw 6.1 release candidate. I open an image and set the camera calibration and the lens correction to auto for Nikon. I save these settings as new Camera raw defaults, but when I open other images, the changes were not made. How can I save these items as defaults?
Swila

Swila, were your "other images" previously edited in Camera Raw? I.e., do they already have saved image settings? The defaults that you save via the flyout menu will only apply to new images, or if you reset an existing image to the defaults. (e.g., choose "Camera Raw Defaults" from the flyout menu).
Eric

Camera raw 6-7 beta and + win7 64

cameraraw6-7_r1_win_030612 won't install on my Win7x64 machine
I extracted the zip to a folder on my desktop, selected & doulble cliked AdobePatchInstaller, selected "RUN" and I get "error loading updater workflow"
Did I get the wrong thing? Is there a 64 bit only version?
cvt

Well duh - should have thought of that!
Thanks
cvt
Noel Carboni <[email protected]> wrote:
Noel Carboni http://forums.adobe.com/people/Noel+Carboni created the discussion
"Re: camera raw 6-7 beta and + win7 64"
To view the discussion, visit: http://forums.adobe.com/message/4268181#4268181

Camera Raw 5.1 downloaded and unzipped but not working in CS4. Can't open Nikon D90 NEF files.

Camera Raw 5.1 downloaded and unzipped but not working in CS4. OS Windows 7. Can't open Nikon NEF files. Camera Nikon D90.

update the adobe program that needs cr 4.6+, http://www.adobe.com/downloads/updates/

Is there any easier way to edit imovie files that have been exported as mov file then added to FCE 4?? As every move I make has to be rendered and takes forever??? Also my recording is going out of focus without me touching the camera, why has this happen

Is there any easier way to edit imovie files that have been exported as mov file then added to FCE 4?? As every move I make has to be rendered and takes forever??? Also my recording is going out of focus without me touching the camera, why has this happened any idea what causes this??
iMovie '08, Mac OS X (10.5.8), FCE 4

My daughter has had her Razr for about 9 months now. About two weeks ago she picked up her phone in the morning on her way to school when she noticed two cracks, both starting at the camera lens. One goes completely to the bottom and the other goes sharply to the side. She has never dropped it and me and my husband went over it with a fine tooth comb. We looked under a magnifying glass and could no find any reason for the glass to crack. Not one ding, scratch or bang. Our daughter really takes good care of her stuff, but we still wanted to make sure before we sent it in for repairs. Well we did and we got a reply from Motorola with a picture of the cracks saying this was customer abuse and that it is not covered under warranty. Even though they did not find any physical damage to back it up. Well I e-mailed them back and told them I did a little research and found pages of people having the same problems. Well I did not hear from them until I received a notice from Fed Ex that they were sending the phone back. NOT FIXED!!! I went to look up why and guess what there is no case open any more for the phone. It has been wiped clean. I put in the RMA # it comes back not found, I put in the ID #, the SN# and all comes back not found. Yet a day earlier all the info was there. I know there is a lot more people like me and all of you, but they just don't want to be bothered so they pay to have it fix, just to have it do it again. Unless they have found the problem and only fixing it on a customer pay only set up. I am furious and will not be recommending this phone to anyone. And to think I was considering this phone for my next up grade! NOT!!!!

RAW, JPEG,camera rendering and profiles

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