Reverse Telecine affecting identical clips different ways

I haven't a clue on how to begin searching for this.
I recently had a problem trying to get my Sony HZ5U 24p footage to true 24p instead of 30. It was causing big confusion in Color, blending frames together. Even though I placed the footage in a 24p sequence, it would just frames in unnecessary spots. And Reverse Telecine wouldn't work on footage imported by HDV - 720p24.
I was able to import to HDV-Apple ProRes 422 1080p24, Reverse Telecine, and add the clips into a HDV- 720p24 sequence to get the resolution I need...
Except there's a problem.
Something isn't working when I reverse telecine.
The clips I imported were all 2:3, two frames of the same then three others that were individual.
I "reversed" two clips which came out to 1:1 (I guess), no frames are duplicated. But a few of the clips I reversed came out to 2:2! There are two frames of the same then two others that are individual.
I'm not sure what is wrong. I didn't import with a different setting, I didn't change anything in Final Cut, I didn't adjust anything in Cinema Tools. I never filmed in a separate format...
I have a consistent segment I have to make each week for a program, and it's done this for the past three weeks. And on one of the clips (either the one with 1:1 or 2:2) after I send back from Color the audio is shifted off a few frames.
Why would Reverse Telecine give me different results in the same operation of the same format of video??

remove the "/" in your file name. that happened to me too. Renamer4Mac is a great free utility that may help you.

Similar Messages

Reverse Telecine Question

I'm testing "Cinema Tools Reverse Telecine" from the FCP Tools menu with NTSC DV media and related 35mm Telecine Logs (flxs). The resulting 24fps QTs show proper KeyCode info in overlays and original lab burn-ins but Video TC looses sync between overlays and burn-ins and only catch up at frame 00 of each second. I couldn't find any info about this in FCP's or Cinema Tools help files. Somehow it feels like I'm doing something wrong.
Video TC looses sync after reverse telecine while Keycode remains consistent? Any pointers are appreciated. Thanks a lot!

The video TC burn-in is 30 fps, since there was no 24-frame video to reference during telecine. The keycode is, of course, 24 fps. You now only have 24 frames of video, so the keycode is going to work right, but the video timecode rate has been converted to 24fps. You have two options. You can just ignore the difference in the frame counts (since it matches up on the 00 then you know you're fine) or you can work with a 30 fps timecode rate. Even though there are only 24 frames of video per second, the count will go up to 29. It will just skip numbers along the way in order to get there. That way it should match up with your burned-in timecode, and the actual timecode on the tapes. I think the best way to do that is to start by creating a Cinema Tools database that has the default video TC rate set to 30 NDF. Then do a batch reverse telecine on your clips from within the Cinema Tools application. I think that will create video clips with a 30 fps TC rate.

Reverse Telecine On Finished Edit, Or Only Original Clips?

Can a reverse telecine be performed on a finished edit? (By this, I mean an uncompressed export from FCP). Or can this only be done on the original clips?
I am editing a short shot on S16mm. The negative was telecined, output to miniDV, then captured in FCP using a Panasonic DVX-100.

hello john,
if you work with the material as is (ie 29.97) and create a timeline, then export that and attempt a reverse telecine on it, you will find that cinema tools can't handle it. the cadence of the 3:2 field rhythms will change from clip to clip (unless you are crazy lucky). so you'll end up with some shots looking fine and others incorrectly converted.
best to do all material up front to edit in 23.98 timelines (or stay in 29.97, though this is a less favoured option for me).
R.

Reverse telecine and final cut

hi. hope the gurus can help.
we shot a short with dvx 100a. we shot on 24p (NORMAL). I am trying to create a 23.98 workflow for the video. all the footage was captured in DV NTSC, and used cinema tools to Reverse Telecine. here come the issues: how do I know which "capture mode" the DVX uses? also which "Style." I tried different settings, and the strange part is that some settings work for some clips while others work for other clips, even though all clips were captured the same way. when i say worked, i mean some showed obvious "flicker" or "ghosting" and some were fantastic. all this on a 23.98 timeline in FCP.
please help,
thanks
liron

when i look at the counter on the original tape, how
would i be able to tell if it was shot in 24p or any
other settings?
yep, it's not in the manual and i found this one day long ago when i got my dvx just after they were first released: open the lcd and on the bottom towards the lens there is the counter button. with the camera in vtr mode and playing the tape, toggle that counter button and you'll get a wealth of info including what framerate the video was shot with.
as for the reverse telecine, how can one determine
what "capture mode" was used? apple suggests a burned
tc, but i do not have that off the dvx.
dude, as far as a reverse telecine, that is determined by which mode was used to photograph with the camera. with fcp 4 you only use cinema tools for 24p standard video but i understand with the latest version of cinema tools you can use for 24P and 24PA, but i've not tried this.
i'd advise you to do a little research. the fcp production studio has a great appendix on 24p material and also go here http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/index.html and here http://www.kenstone.net/fcphomepage/24p_in_FCPnattress.html
good luck.

Reverse Telecine error

Does any one know what an "Error-43" means in the reverse telecine log? I am not able to batch reverse or single clip reverse any of my clips. The process stops 3/4 of the way through, I have tried many different clips and settings but keep getting error -43 in the log....?

remove the "/" in your file name. that happened to me too. Renamer4Mac is a great free utility that may help you.

Reverse Telecine 24fps Error?!?

Hi,
We've troubleshot this all ways possible, it seems, so here goes:
Our show is downconverting HD to 29.97; we're editing in 23.98 sequences. The other assistant has been able to successfully Reverse Telecine the footage (which we've batch-captured from a DVCam deck) from 29.97 to 23.98. On my system, however, when I choose the Reverse Telecine option in FCP 5.1.1, the footage ends up as 24 fps. IE, in the Video Rate column, it shows up as 24 fps.
It doesn't matter which system the footage has been captured on; on his system, if he's done the RT, then it shows up correctly as 23.98. If I RT on my system, it shows up as 24. (And any footage which he has RTed on his system correctly imports onto my system at 23.98.)
Any ideas?
We've played around with (seemingly) all the sequence/capture presets and nothing affects the above result. Otherwise, all our settings - including Cinema Tools - are set the same.
Any advice would be most helpful.
-Chris

Hi,
Thanks for your replies. We just discovered it today - there's a hidden preference in Cinema Tools where you can choose to conform to 24 or 23.98 fps; this preference is not available in Final Cut.
What you have to do is: in Cinema Tools, go to File > Open Clip, which will bring up a clip and options for Reverse-Telecine and Conform. Then, if you click on the Conform option, the next window will give you the ability to change the fps for conforming. Change to 23.98. Even if you Cancel without RTing the clip, the option will remain as whichever you selected. Then close and reopen Cinema Tools and you can Batch RT from Cinema Tools or FCP correctly.
Note that if you change the fps in the Rev Telecine option previous, the changed fps will not remain as default. Also note that you have to capture a clip (or have a movie file somewhere on the drive) in order to be able to access these preferences.
Much grief from some lousy program design.
Thanks for the help.
-Chris

Bizarre Reverse Telecine issue is driving me insane

OK, so I've got this 200G movie in uncompressed 10-bit 4:2:2 to reverse telecine using Compressor 2.3 (my copy of FCS2 isn't here yet, so that isn't the issue). No cadence breaks or other issues AFAICT. This is an actual telecine I'm reverse telecine'ing, btw.
Since the file doesn't have timecode burn and starts with a black leader, it's hard to get the precise reverse telecine settings by inspection. So I did what I've done in the past - export the first couple of minutes, starting from frame 1, and trial-and-error to get the right settings for the file (in this case, F1-F2, DD).
After doing that, I apply those settings to the big file, go away for 8 hours (since compressor hogs all the ram, the machine is useless for anything else), and return to find that...
...the file didn't reverse telecine properly - some of the frames are interlaced, and not only that, but it's wrong right from the start. Using the exact same settings, the short clip reverses fine, the long clip has interlace, even on the early frames that are the same as the short clip!
At which point, I'm shaking my head in wonder and then banging it against the wall... it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I've repeated the whole process twice, with the same results.
Any words of wisdom. It goes without saying this was dumped on me with a ridiculously tight deadline.
MacBook Pro Mac OS X (10.4.9)

An update on my progress (hopefully this will help the next person in my situation).
I have found that dividing the job into smaller chunks (about 10 minutes long, 15-16GB) prevents this bizarre problem from happening; it seems to be a bug that only affects larger reverse telecine jobs.
With the smaller chunks, I've found that starting the export from FCP with the first of the two interlaced frames in each group of 5 is the easiest way to go, since it's easy to visually identify, and means that for F1-F2 interlaced telecines, the BC setting will always be the one you need to use. I've also been exporting a short (20 sec) clip with the same start point as each chunk as a sanity check, and so far it's all worked well.
G4 1.44DP

Reverse Telecine in Cinema Tools

My 24p fcp project is finished and I need to reverse telecine it to get rid of the ugly interlacing. How do I do this?
I've tried importing the movie into Cinema Tools and it keeps crashing. When I import the whole thing as a single clip (QT Movie), the Reverse Telecine button isn't available.
Also, why can't I import an mpeg-2 clip?
I'm using Cinema Tools 2.2, in case this has something to do with it.
Thanks in advance.

Oh, and Mr. Gilman was saying that there will be interlacing no matter what if it's on DVD or Beta? Why is this?
It's what I was trying to tell you when I said If tape, you need the pulldown anyway. If DVD, the pulldown would be added by the player.
You have to understand where the interlacing is coming from. It is coming from the pulldown inserted to bring the fps from 24 to 30...
Google reveals these Pulldown explanation pages:
http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/#24pRecording
http://home.aol.com/ajaynejr/pulldown.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24p
http://www.zerocut.com/tech/pulldown.html
http://www.denecke.com/24pinfo.htm
here's a visual representation of 24P with pulldown added to be recorded on a 29.97 tape (this is how all feature films are broadcast on NTSC)
You can see from this image that two frames BC and CD are interlaced - that is, they are made up of two fields taken from different frames. When a DVD has 24fps material on it, the DVD player automatically inserts this pulldown to bring it up to 30 fps so it can be shown on a regular TV.
Now. I believe your problem may stem from an incorrect field order, but first I want to ask - When you created your export of your movie that you fed into DVDSP to make your DVD, did you try importing it into FCP and playing it back on your TV. Did it look okay then?
Patrick

Reverse Telecine Question (Cinema Tools)

Dear board members,
I have footage that was shot with Panasonic AG-HVX200 in 1080i60 (29.97fps), but with 24p function with a 2:3 pulldown. When I ingest it in FCP through Log and Transfer this footage (for some peculiar reason) shows up as 1080p30. I also need to remove pulldown to make it 24 (23,98) FPS.
My workaround is as follows:
1) I export these files from FCP as DVCPRO HD 1080i60 QT files.
2) then I send these new "masters" to Cinema Tools, where I do Reverse Telecine process.
The results looks fine, but I just want to double-check my settings in Cinema Tools, because the batch for this job contains thousands of clips and there is no room for mistake.
Reverse Telecine in Cinema Tools settings:
Capture Mode:
Field 1 - Field 2
Fields:
AA
File:
New (smaller)
Frames:
Conform to: 23.98 FPS
Standard Upper/Lower: Checked
Thank you very much for your time and (hopefully) helpful comments.
Regards,
Tim

I just did a test yesterday with MXFX software and there is a visible recompression in the resulting file. I compared the same frame (from different clips) processed through Cinema Tools and MXFX and also compared it to the original frame and MXFX clearly does something to the image (recompression or noise reduction, whatever you want to call it). Contacted them about it, they said they will look at it. Anyhow, the result is pretty visible at 200% zoom. Anyhow, that made me decide against MXFX.
Thanks for a suggestion though.

Reverse Telecine Nightmare - 16mm - Please help...

I´m working for the first time in Brazilian Cinema as a assistent editor and i`m having a serious problem with Cinema Tools Reverse Telecine.
I´ve read the manual but I can´t get any solution.
We shoot the movie in 16mm with an Aaton minima camera.
The telecine was made to dv tapes.
I´ve created a database in Cinema tools with the flex files, exported a xml to final cut and batch captured.
My problem is:
When I use the Cinema tools reverse telecine and open my clip in Final Cut (6.0.3), it still contain fields and I can´t read the letters of the window burn
The field pattern is A2 B2 C1 D1 D3 -- Field 2 only as we can read in the manual.
I´m reversing for 23.98 fps
I´ve tried with the "Standard upper/lower" checked and unchecked with no positive results... When I open in the Final Cut, in a 23.98 project, and see the clip
frame by frame, I can´t read the letters and there is fields... I´ve tried the other options too... But the pull down is always there
In page 132 of Cinema tools manual,you can read in the "Check telecine results" session ---> "each letter should be clearly legible..."
That´s my nightmare... What should I do? Can anyone give me a solution for this problem??
Thanks for reading...

Ugh - single field telecine.
I've never had to put single field video through Cinema Tools so I shouldn't be commenting - but I happen to know that another guy with a -similar- but different problem with single field telecine video in CT set his field dominance to F1-F2, and got usable video. Thought I'd mention it.
See here: http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1563046&tstart=13
Single field telecine isn't that complicated, it should be easy for CT to just remove the extra field from the sequence. Make sure you're starting on an A frame (or field, in your case, I suppose.)
Again, never done single field video in CT, so feel free to ignore me completely.

Reverse telecine of quicktime file

I am trying to reverse telecine a clip from 29.97 to 23.98
The clip is a flash animation converted to quicktime file.
Cinema tools wont open the file.
Any suggestions?

So I just kept trying different options til I got one that exported a clean 23.9 whatever quicktime. I took a section from the beginning for a couple of minutes so it included a section with a lot of horizontal motion. If anyone's interested, the settings were F1-F2, Conform to 23.98, Standard upper/lower, Fields DD, Style 1. Don't have a clue what Fields DD and Style 1 mean but I assume it has to do with the cadence of the 3:2 pulldown. Once I had a clean test section, I exported the whole film. It'll be interesting to see if the other film works with the same settings.

Batch Reverse Telecine - Cannot Select Fields?

Hi, I'm trying to reverse telecine some footage and I've run into a problem where the only way to do it correctly is to it manually, one clip at a time. When I run a reverse telecine on individual cips, I have the option of selecting the field order (ie AA/BB).
The problem is when I try to run a batch reverse telecine, I can no longer select the correct field order. For my particular footage I need to select the "CD" field order in order for the pulldown to be correctly removed. However, for some insane reason, I cannot select the correct field order with Batch Reverse Telecine.
Why is this? Can I expect a resolution for this any time soon? Or is Apple not going to correct this before they release another update that I have to pay for...
Anybody have any insight?

... running into the precise same problem right now. very frustrating.
the manual indicates that the "batch" feature should use the settings that were set on the last individual clip reversed (ie if the last clip was set to use BB, then the batch should be done using BB). this is clearly not how it is working, or i am missing something (every time i try, the batch is done to AA)
R.

Problems with reverse telecine in Cinema tools

I am trying to reverse telecine some 24p footage I shot on a panasonic dvx. I have captured several tapes of footage in FCP 7 (as 29.97 footage to get the full data stream), then I have been sending clips to cinema tools to be reverse telecined, then bringing them back into FCP and editing on a 23.98 timeline. So far, I have used this workflow with three of my tapes and they all look fine in the end, but with one tape in particular I took all of the same steps but am having problems. When I bring clips from that tape into cinema tools and select "reverse telecine" it seems as if Cinema Tools is working and processing the footage, but at the very end the window with that clip suddenly disappears and no .rev file of the footage is created. Cinema tools remains open, only that window with the footage that was being processed is gone. I have tried recapturing the footage, renaming it, and double-checking my capture settings in FCP but have yet to figure out why these clips from this tape in particular will not be reverse telecined. Any suggestions about what I could be doing wrong?

I am almost positive I shot them the exact way, although the scene file dial on the dvx is pretty easily changed, so maybe if I bumped it during filming...
So to check, I looked at the footage before it was reverse telecined on an external moniter and it looks the same as all my other footage--with about 2 interlaced frames for every five frames. Is there another way I could check?
I'll try your compressor idea and see if that will remove the 3:2 pulldown! Thanks for the advice!

Problems with reversing telecine pull-down

I'm preparing to edit a feature film shot on S16mm. The film was telecined to HDCAM SR at 23.98 for the online. Than down-converted to DVCAM at 29.97 for the offline. I imported the flex files into FCP and captured a bin. Than ran the batch reverse telecine following all instructions in Cinema Tools manual. Clips were converted to 23.98, but when played in FCP strobe or flicker. I cannot for the life of me figure out why. The A-Frames hit on 0's and 5's and that's what all the clips start at.
Note, the strobing or flickering only happens when going out to an external NTSC monitor, not in FPC viewer or canvas.
Does anyone have any ideas?

I see you're on FCP5... if you're about to bust into a feature edit you really might want to move up to FCP6. It's a bit more mature all around.
We just did a Super35mm project (offline in ProRes, and then a 2K DPX-based online) in FCP6, albeit with a slightly different workflow.
I assume you did the HDCAM SR to DVCAM downconversion because you didn't have an HDCAM SR deck and/or HD-SDI input mechanism for the system you're editing on, but you did have a firewire DVCAM deck or something similar.
If the issue was introduced during the HDCAM-SR to DVCAM step, perhaps that's where the issue lies. You may want to try to eliminate that possibility.
Other than that, I'd go through and verify that you are in fact looking at the right fields in the right order. Use whatever mechanisms you have available to you to view the fields independently of each other.
Also, if you're outputting 23.98 video to an external monitor, does that monitor support that output format? Or are you having telecine frames inserted during playback?
There's a limited amount of things that could be wrong here. If your canvas is accurately displaying all of the frames and looks normal, and there's no frames "bleeding fields" into each other when you step through it, and you're sure you're not MISSING any frames or fields, then the telecine frames must have gotten removed properly, that's the only logical conclusion. If that's the case, then your problem is either a bug (possible), a field dominance issue (which you seem to have ruled out) or it's in your external video monitoring system/path. i.e. monitor doesn't like the video it's getting, hardware doesn't support the video signal, something is flat out broken, etc.
That said, HDCAM-SR to ProRes or ProResHQ is a pretty reasonable mastering format for S16-acquired content. If all else fails, go rent an HDCAM-SR deck for the weekend, capture the whole project to ProRes/ProRes HQ, and boom, you're in your online @ 23.98. Just skip the offline altogether. You've already got your FLX files so you could batch the whole job pretty quickly. Storage is cheap.

Remove Advanced Pulldown and Reverse Telecine...

Hey guys,
I have read all the hundreds of postings here about problems with removing advanced pulldown. Some people mention using compressor to get the clips to 23.98. I was happy to find that indeed compressor did get the clips that I couldn't remove pulldown in FCP on to 23.98, and that those clips play on the same timeline as my other 23.98 clips. HOWEVER, the clips that were reverse telecined, then brought into FCP play with a stroby effect... There's weird horizontal lines through them. Anyone know what is going on? I guess I will start re-logging and capturing the clips as shorter clips and then try to remove the advanced pulldown on them (from what I understand FCP can't remove the pulldown if there is a cut within a clip...) but if anyone knows of an easier way to deal with this, let me know. I am working with 50 hours of footage, probably 5 of which I couldn't get the advanced pull down off of, so it's a lot of work! Thanks!

I found this answer to one of the posts about removing advanced pulldown problems:
"Are you certain it's 24PA and not 24P?
You might be able to break it into smaller chunks with QT Pro and try removing advanced pulldown on that, but that's just a shot in the dark..."
Patrick
Can someone explain how to use Quicktime Pro to break the clips into smaller chunks without going through and re-logging and capturing all over? Although, I already put all the clips that didn't get the pulldown removed in FCP through cinema tools to make them 23.98 too...I suppose this will make it impossible for me to use the QT PRo method...I am losing days of work here making smaller and smaller clips out of this material by logging and capturing over and over so I'm desperate to make sure there's not an easier way around this...
Outside of when you are tranferring to film, does anyone have a really good reason to shoot 24pA on the dvx100? With this project it was definitely a mistake!

Reverse Telecine affecting identical clips different ways

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