Reverse Telecine Question (Cinema Tools)

Dear board members,
I have footage that was shot with Panasonic AG-HVX200 in 1080i60 (29.97fps), but with 24p function with a 2:3 pulldown. When I ingest it in FCP through Log and Transfer this footage (for some peculiar reason) shows up as 1080p30. I also need to remove pulldown to make it 24 (23,98) FPS.
My workaround is as follows:
1) I export these files from FCP as DVCPRO HD 1080i60 QT files.
2) then I send these new "masters" to Cinema Tools, where I do Reverse Telecine process.
The results looks fine, but I just want to double-check my settings in Cinema Tools, because the batch for this job contains thousands of clips and there is no room for mistake.
Reverse Telecine in Cinema Tools settings:
Capture Mode:
Field 1 - Field 2
Fields:
AA
File:
New (smaller)
Frames:
Conform to: 23.98 FPS
Standard Upper/Lower: Checked
Thank you very much for your time and (hopefully) helpful comments.
Regards,
Tim

I just did a test yesterday with MXFX software and there is a visible recompression in the resulting file. I compared the same frame (from different clips) processed through Cinema Tools and MXFX and also compared it to the original frame and MXFX clearly does something to the image (recompression or noise reduction, whatever you want to call it). Contacted them about it, they said they will look at it. Anyhow, the result is pretty visible at 200% zoom. Anyhow, that made me decide against MXFX.
Thanks for a suggestion though.

Similar Messages

Reverse Telecine in Cinema Tools

My 24p fcp project is finished and I need to reverse telecine it to get rid of the ugly interlacing. How do I do this?
I've tried importing the movie into Cinema Tools and it keeps crashing. When I import the whole thing as a single clip (QT Movie), the Reverse Telecine button isn't available.
Also, why can't I import an mpeg-2 clip?
I'm using Cinema Tools 2.2, in case this has something to do with it.
Thanks in advance.

Oh, and Mr. Gilman was saying that there will be interlacing no matter what if it's on DVD or Beta? Why is this?
It's what I was trying to tell you when I said If tape, you need the pulldown anyway. If DVD, the pulldown would be added by the player.
You have to understand where the interlacing is coming from. It is coming from the pulldown inserted to bring the fps from 24 to 30...
Google reveals these Pulldown explanation pages:
http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/#24pRecording
http://home.aol.com/ajaynejr/pulldown.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24p
http://www.zerocut.com/tech/pulldown.html
http://www.denecke.com/24pinfo.htm
here's a visual representation of 24P with pulldown added to be recorded on a 29.97 tape (this is how all feature films are broadcast on NTSC)
You can see from this image that two frames BC and CD are interlaced - that is, they are made up of two fields taken from different frames. When a DVD has 24fps material on it, the DVD player automatically inserts this pulldown to bring it up to 30 fps so it can be shown on a regular TV.
Now. I believe your problem may stem from an incorrect field order, but first I want to ask - When you created your export of your movie that you fed into DVDSP to make your DVD, did you try importing it into FCP and playing it back on your TV. Did it look okay then?
Patrick

Problems with reverse telecine in Cinema tools

I am trying to reverse telecine some 24p footage I shot on a panasonic dvx. I have captured several tapes of footage in FCP 7 (as 29.97 footage to get the full data stream), then I have been sending clips to cinema tools to be reverse telecined, then bringing them back into FCP and editing on a 23.98 timeline. So far, I have used this workflow with three of my tapes and they all look fine in the end, but with one tape in particular I took all of the same steps but am having problems. When I bring clips from that tape into cinema tools and select "reverse telecine" it seems as if Cinema Tools is working and processing the footage, but at the very end the window with that clip suddenly disappears and no .rev file of the footage is created. Cinema tools remains open, only that window with the footage that was being processed is gone. I have tried recapturing the footage, renaming it, and double-checking my capture settings in FCP but have yet to figure out why these clips from this tape in particular will not be reverse telecined. Any suggestions about what I could be doing wrong?

I am almost positive I shot them the exact way, although the scene file dial on the dvx is pretty easily changed, so maybe if I bumped it during filming...
So to check, I looked at the footage before it was reverse telecined on an external moniter and it looks the same as all my other footage--with about 2 interlaced frames for every five frames. Is there another way I could check?
I'll try your compressor idea and see if that will remove the 3:2 pulldown! Thanks for the advice!

TRIED EVERYTHING/NO LUCK with Reverse Telecine in Cinema Tools 29.97 to 24p

I read an article that was on Ken Stones site. It said that, basically you CAN'T
take a clip that is at 29.97 and has 3:2 pulldown in it, and get it to actual 24 progressive frames? Is this true? Has ANYONE out there actually removed pulldown CORRECTLY with footage shot at 24, then transferred to 29.97?
I've tried all options with Cinema Tools Reverse Telecine, and I always wind up with some interlacing.
My QT clip has a 3:2 cadence, one can frame through it and see this.
Am I missing something here? Does anyone know a procedure that can get me to 24 progressive frames. Is there a 3rd party piece of software out there?
Any relies appreciated.
G5 2.3 early Mac OS X (10.4.7) Cinema Tools V 3.1.1
G5 2.3 Mac OS X (10.3.8) Cinema Tools V3.1.1 QT V7.1.2 FCP V5.1.1

Well then, that is your problem. Those aren't reverse telecin-able. What are reversable are DV tapes that you captured at 29.97...in the DV/NTSC codec.
Are you working with Digital Intermediates? Or footage telecined to tape?
Typical Telecine to Tape workflow is:
Telecine to DVCAM
Lab provides DVCAM and Flex file to you.
Open Cinema Tools. Import Flex file and export batch Capture list.
Import batch capture list into FCP.
Batch Capture the DV footage.
Reverse telecine the footage with Cinema Tools.
Edit.
What exactly are you doing? Where did these files come from? What is your workflow?
Shane

And yet another reverse telecine question. =)

Okay so I shot the footage in 24p advanced on a dvx100b. I batch reverse telecined in cinema tools. It worked fine except for the first frame of some of the final reverse telecined files. Only on some of the files (randomly) the first frame is interlaced. This only happened to some of the files and it is not really a big deal because there is nothing important usually in the first frame but it is a little worrying. Could it be because I didnt really pay attention to which of the 5 frame set (0-5/A-D frames where frame 3/C is the interlaced frame in 24p advanced) was captured as the first frame during capturing? I have heard that you must capture the 0/A frame as the first frame for reverse telecining/advanced pulldown removal to work. Is this true. Even if so, the whole clip other than the first frame is still fine so, any ideas?

Ive received an answer to this in another forum. It is due to the fact that cinema tools has no other field to combine with for the first frame depending on which of the 5 field sequence it started recording in. It is really no problem because it is only the very first frame that is affected.

Reverse Telecine Question

I'm testing "Cinema Tools Reverse Telecine" from the FCP Tools menu with NTSC DV media and related 35mm Telecine Logs (flxs). The resulting 24fps QTs show proper KeyCode info in overlays and original lab burn-ins but Video TC looses sync between overlays and burn-ins and only catch up at frame 00 of each second. I couldn't find any info about this in FCP's or Cinema Tools help files. Somehow it feels like I'm doing something wrong.
Video TC looses sync after reverse telecine while Keycode remains consistent? Any pointers are appreciated. Thanks a lot!

The video TC burn-in is 30 fps, since there was no 24-frame video to reference during telecine. The keycode is, of course, 24 fps. You now only have 24 frames of video, so the keycode is going to work right, but the video timecode rate has been converted to 24fps. You have two options. You can just ignore the difference in the frame counts (since it matches up on the 00 then you know you're fine) or you can work with a 30 fps timecode rate. Even though there are only 24 frames of video per second, the count will go up to 29. It will just skip numbers along the way in order to get there. That way it should match up with your burned-in timecode, and the actual timecode on the tapes. I think the best way to do that is to start by creating a Cinema Tools database that has the default video TC rate set to 30 NDF. Then do a batch reverse telecine on your clips from within the Cinema Tools application. I think that will create video clips with a 30 fps TC rate.

Removing pulldown... cinema tools vs compressor vs ???

I have some footage shot at 24p on my canon hf 10. I need to remove pulldown. I saw this artice here
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2410?viewlocale=en_US):
now, which is a better method, to remove the pulldown, cinema tools or compressor, or even, another third party app does it better? Compressor and Cinema tools are 2 different programs, so they must have 2 different ways of doing things, and or results.
with compressor I have created a setting and a droplet on my desktop.
but I am interested in what the article says
*This method requires that you determine the cadence pattern for each clip.*
*In Final Cut Pro, choose the Easy Setup named "Apple Intermediate Codec, 29.97, HDV-Apple Intermediate Codec 1080i60".*
*Capture your clips.*
*Open each clip in Cinema Tools and manually reverse telecine each clip.*
how do I determine the Candence for EACH CLIP? also, if I shoot at 30p, do I also need to remove pulldown, or is this just for 24p?

piff aroni wrote:
I have some footage shot at 24p on my canon hf 10. I need to remove pulldown. I saw this artice here
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2410?viewlocale=en_US
Zak Ray wrote:
Not sure why the article is recommending using AIC-- as I see it, your options are 1) capture native HDV and transcode to ProRes + reverse telecine in Compressor, or 2) capture ProRes and reverse telecine in Cinema Tools.
The best way to figure it out is probably to just run a test.
Am in a very similar situation to Piff, and as Zak suggests am about to do some tests.
Meantime though, would be interested to hear from anyone with experience in this particular area, especially since the Knowledge Base article quoted above is a bit confusing on two fronts:
1) It refers to the Canon HV20, which shoots HDV, whereas the camera referenced by the original poster, the Canon HF10 -- assuming it's the same Canon HF10 I've been using -- shoots AVCHD files on SDHC cards (and/or its internal memory);
2) As Zak points out, it's surprising that there's no mention of ProRes, just AIC. The article says it was last modified July, 2008 -- was that pre-ProRes?
In any case, I'll try to post my results as soon as I can run my own Compressor vs. Cinema Tools tests -- but in the meantime would appreciate hearing any insights from those who've already been down that road, especially in regards to best practices for removing the pulldown added by the Canon HF10 when shooting "24p" (which as a colleague recently pointed out, should actually be called "24f", as in "24fake" -- since it's really just 29.97 interlaced in disguise).
Thanks,
John Bertram
Toronto

Blurred fields after reverse telecine

I am digitizing DVCAM tapes recorded at 29.97 (telecined from film @ 23.98) I'm cutting in a 23.98 timeline but need a correct database to go back to film. I do the normal procedure from Cinema Tools to reverse telecine, but when I bring the clip into the timeline, The A, B, C, D fields are blurred. The video plays fine, but it seems like something is wrong with the fields. Any ideas?

We shot 35 and are going back to film. The lab did the telecine and when Cinema Tools does the reverse, it converts it to 23.98, therefore I need to cut in a 23.98 timeline for it to match.
In regard to my workflow, this is how we have been doing it.
Create a New Database
Import the .ale (or .flx) file into Cinema Tools
Export an FCP XML Batch List
Import the XML into FCP and Batch Capture at 29.97 from the DVCAM
Reverse Telecine using Cinema Tools *Under Tools within FCP*
Then I connect all the clips to the new media, etc..
My problem is not blurred frames, but the A1, B2, C1, D2 fields in the burn-in blur when within the sequence. The video plays fine, not choppy or anything, but the burn in numbers do not play correctly.
When I open the clip in the Viewer the burn-in numbers are OK.
Is this normal for a 23.98 sequence?

24p reverse telecine

I used to be able to reverse telecine 24p footage from HVX200 camera but now its not working and people are now telling me that it only works with 24pa footage. I used 24p workflow in the past and it worked fine. What has changed? I think I used the 24p workflow before final cut supported 24pa. I already have a whole project shot in 24p and need to reverse telecine.

workflow:
shoot with HVX200 in 1080i/24p
import/transfer P2 files into FCP
Reverse Telecine to work with 24p version of footage in FCP without interlaced frames.
problem: "cinema tools reverse telecine" under the tools menu does not work as it did with same workflow in previous versions.
Ok, so it appears that the "pro-apps update 2008-05" (which updates among other things FCP to 6.0.5) is the problem. I have decided to work in 6.0.1 where the workflow works fine. Here is my troubleshooting log:
I used FCP remover to uninstall the entire studio
installed 5.0.2 and received corrupted file message when attempting to import P2 file
upgraded to 5.0.4, P2 files imported (no log and transfer in this version) successfully with a DVCPRO HD 1080i60 compression at 29.97 fps. I applied the "Cinema Tools Reverse Telecine" tool to a selected file (one of the same files I have been working with sense the beginning of this issue and will continue to use through out this troubleshooting) and it successfully processed the file resulting in a 24fps clip with no interlaced frames. YEAH!
I used software update as far as I could with this version and the workflow was still successful.
Installed 6.0.1 from CD, the workflow was still successful except the P2 files where coming in with a compression of DVCPROHD 1080p30. I don't see a problem with this. The resulting file was still 24p without any interlaced frames. And this version also has the log and transfer feature.
I ran software update and installed "Pro-Apps update 2008-05" and "Cinema Tools update 4.2.1". So I am working in FCP 6.0.5 and the problem starts. "Cinema Tools Reverse Telecine" just simply does not work. Nor does a reverse telecine work if I go directly through Cinema tools and bypass FCP with the imported P2 files (now quicktime).
I uninstall with FCS remover again.
I install 6.0.1 from the CD and perform the "Pro-Apps update 2008-05" only which takes me to 6.0.5 again. Still no good.
I uninstall with FCS remover again.
I install 6.0.1 from the CD. I don't do any updates and the workflow works great! So I will atleast do the log, transfer, and reverse telecine in this version. In the future I will shoot in 24pa, for that seems to work fine with the same workflow in 6.0.5.
I am going to leave this post as un-resolved sense Apple still needs to fix this in future versions.

Cinema Tools Reverse Telecine problem-24 vs. 23.98 + sound issue

Hello again folks,
Trying to figure this all out, and thanks in advance for your input; this forum is amazing and has been invaluable!
I've been studying the FCP and CT pdf manuals and lots of links/threads here in the forum to get the proper workflow, have tried it all out, and ran into some problems:
Need to convert--sorry--REVERSE TELECINE--my captured DV 24p (captured at 29.97) footage into 23.98fps to edit in 23.98. Copied some media files so as not to ruin the originals, chose them from project bins, and sent them to CT using FCP'S "Tools>Cinema Tools Reverse Telecine" (super easy and feeling overconfident). When I checked the footage, two things were odd:
1) My new frame rate was at "24" not "23.98", which I believe I want to be working in in order to achieve my desired finished product (I'm sure I read this in the forum and links, does it matter?), and
2) for kicks, while there in Tools, I tried one clip with "Tools>Remove Advance Pulldown", which did result in the 23.98fps.
3) about 6 seconds into the new 23.98fps clip the sound disappears (I checked and the original clips have good sound throughout).
Any thoughts out there on this. Should I be reversing telecine from within CT (by importing clips), and not from FCP's easy Tools>Cinema Tools Reverse Telecine.
Any links or thoughts to clarify will be received with great admiration and thanks!
Greg
Macbook Pro Mac OS X (10.4.8) FCP ver.5.1.2. and CT ver.3.1.2
Macbook Pro Mac OS X (10.4.8)
Macbook Pro Mac OS X (10.4.8)

We'll need some more details. Where is your footage coming from? Was it originally HDCAM and downconverted to DV? Was the audio recorded straight to tape or was it synced in post? Is it consistently one or two frames out of sync or does it drift out of sync? How was it digitized? If you open the clip in Cinema Tools and step through it frame by frame do you see any interlaced frames?
There are dozens of things that can go wrong with this sort of process, so it's important to get really detailed.

Setting default cinema tools reverse telecine

Does anyone know of a way to set the default cinema tools reverse telecine to the following?
*Field 1 - Field 2*
*Style 1*
DD
I want to use the "Tools -> Cinema Tools Reverse Telecine" functionality from within Final Cut but for some reason Cinema Tools doesn't remember the settings above as the default. I noticed that it does remember the "capture mode" settings (Field 1 only, field 2 only, field 1 - field 2, field 2 - field 1), but I can't get it to remember the settings in the "Field" section. Does it even do this?
I'm shooting 24p on a Sony HDV camera and it resets the cadence on every new scene, so every clip begins with three progressive frames and then follows with two interlaced frames. I capture to Apple Intermediate Codec 60i. I've made a Compressor droplet to automatically remove the telecine but sometimes it messes up and a few resulting clips have interlacing erratically throughout. So, Cinema Tools is the best bet if I can get it to work in a batch process instead of clip-by-clip for hundreds of clips!
Any and all help would be greatly appreciated!

We'll need some more details. Where is your footage coming from? Was it originally HDCAM and downconverted to DV? Was the audio recorded straight to tape or was it synced in post? Is it consistently one or two frames out of sync or does it drift out of sync? How was it digitized? If you open the clip in Cinema Tools and step through it frame by frame do you see any interlaced frames?
There are dozens of things that can go wrong with this sort of process, so it's important to get really detailed.

Film list in Cinema Tools from 25 telecine, edited in a DV PAL-24 sequence

Hello professionals out there in the binary world,
I am looking for 24/25/24 answer to my problem and going thru all the questions like mine with no answer is just depressing !!!
Here is the problem:
We are editing on Final Cut Pro 4 with Cinematools 2.1
16mm shot at 24 FPS with a TC at 25fps to edit at 24fps in FCP 4
Sound recorded at 24FPS (Cantar)imported thru sebskytools...
We edited in a sequence DV PAL-24
(24@25 not available on FCP4)
Sound SEEMS ok as I need everything at 24FPS (quicktime movie, omf and edl)
For the image, I need a cut list for the negative cutter, when I want to make it in FCP4, in the settings, it doesn't allow me to change the TC rate to 25, it's greyed out, I have no choice else than 24...EVEN if I logged the database saying it was a 25fps TC.
In the database it's ok but it's not available in the FCP film list settings.
First weird thing..WHY ???
When the list is done, it says at the beginning and for all the clips used in the edit: "warning, the clip x does not have a telecine speed of 24FPS".... But the keycodes seems ok (same as my timeline)
SECOND PROBLEM:
I also need to tape the movie on beta for that negative cutter and it should be at 25FPS, like the TC otherwise the time won't correspond...HOW ??? Is it possible ?
Thanks for any information you could give me to clear it up a little bet !
All that 24/25 is a little cloudy in my mind, I would be thrilled if someone could blow those clouds away !
Marie
Final Cut Pro 4 / Cinema Tools 2.1 Mac OS X (10.3.1)

Hi Marie
Cloudy.....its a pea souper. Below is a cut and paste of some of the answers I have given in other threads. Also, I would get FCP5 studio as it is much better at all this.
Hi
This is the one area where avid beats FCP. 24fps Pal. I have now used FCP on a couple of PAL features and it is a bit of a pain. I also have the Apple pro support but most of this is all new to them.
Lets start with picture. As you know, you can either make tape/dvds that are the correct running length of the film and include a repeat frame or you can make them playing 4% fast with a pitch change but smooth pictures (1 frame film = 1 frame video). Most of the time, ie. when you are editing you will use the first method and live with the repeat frame. However, for VFX work and the NEG CUT or DI you will need to make 25 frame playouts.
The avid does this well but FCP is a pain.
One work around for the fast output is to export a QT of the cut and use cinema tools to conform it to 25fps. Some neg cutters or Digital labs will work to a QT, if they don't, then the 25fps QT can be imported into a new 25fps pal project so you can make a tape for the neg cutter which has the correct time code and you will have machine control. (Hint, I burn in 25fps TC when I make the QT). The edl will depend on your choice of film key number cut lists or a video edl. Key code lists work well but most neg cutters/labs dont like them. If you need an EDL then it should be made in the main 24@25 project but you need to set the edit code to 25fps before you make the edl. This is changed in the browser by going to TC RATE where it is set to 24@25 speed and right clicking. this gives you the option of changing the edit to 25 or 24 as well as 24@25. Most of the time while I cut, I have the edit set to 24fps not 24@25. Then I can see how long the show is running, how long a clip is etc.
Sound. Most people in the UK get rushes synched at the lab/tk house. They speed up the sound to match the speeded up picture. That blows the idea of an omf unless you are ok with the sound going through an analogue transfer which includes a speed change. If not, you will have to reconform from the original dats.
You must get flex files which will track the original location dat tapes and their time codes. These are used to in Cinema tools to make the batch capture list. When you want to make an edl at the end you will use EXPORT...CINEMA TOOLS AUDIO EDL.
Your audio post house may require a video tape with each reel having time code starting on the hour. That is very tricky and I tend to go back to my avid for that. You can do it by doing a crash record with the added frame and loading that back into a 25fps project. Then making tapes from there as you will now have machine control. Not pretty and quite time consuming. If they will work from QT files its easier.
I think you may have imported the audio which I haven't done in FCP yet. I will try BWAV import one day as they work well on the avid but have been told they don't work well on FCP. If they are working well for you then the omf route should be great. Let me know how you get on with audio.
I have managed to get through PAL features shot at 24 with FCP, but it sure is more work than on an avid, mostly for the assistant editors. However, I like cutting on FCP.
Best

Hello I have a question about Converting 60 23.98 Cannon Mark III footage. In cinema tools, my footage stays grayed out. Both when I try my Compressor pro-res footage,

Hello I have a question about Converting 60>23.98 Cannon Mark III footage.
In cinema tools, my footage stays grayed out. Both when I try my Compressor pro-res footage, & original footage from cam.
When I convert from 60>23.98 in the Gopro app, it works fine.
Does anyone know if there is any quality loss in this app?
Also does anyone know another free software tht works great to convert markIII 60>23.98 footage?
Thank u thank u thank u !!!!

Questions about Cinema Tools should be asked in the Final Cut Studio forum.
Russ

Reverse Telecine vs. Convert EDL

First posted this in the FCP discussion forum and didn't receive a response. Admittedly, I didn't wait very long.
Simple question, long explanation. Apologies in advance.
Basically, a new client of mine shot a project on film, had the footage telecined without sound and synced the sound himself to help whomever was going to cut it. My issue is this, he synced everything before reversing the telecine on the clips, so everyting is still 29.97. The project will eventually go out to film, so a 23.98 EDL will have to be created.
In past projects, when I received telecined footage I'd reverse the telecine before syncing sound, and my EDL's have always been fine. My question is this, if I reverse telecine now, is his work syncing sound in 29.97 lost? Should I just cut in 29.97 and convert the EDL from 30 to 24 in Cinema Tools when everything is finished? I am extremely hesitant to do this, because in the past I've always tried to keep my "23.98" ducks in a row.
I'd prefer to reverse telecine and work in 23.98, but don't relish the thought of re-syncing sound that has already been synced. There's roughly 10 hours of footage.
Thanks.
Mac OS X (10.4.8) 1.25 Dual G4

I'm curious how you solved this problem - I'm assuming you did figure it out as time stands still for no Editor : - )Please share?
Thanks much.

Reverse Telecine Vs. Converted EDL

Simple question, long explanation. Apologies in advance.
Basically, a new client of mine shot a project on film, had the footage telecined without sound and synced the sound himself to help whomever was going to cut it. My issue is this, he synced everything before reversing the telecine on the clips, so everyting is still 29.97. The project will eventually go out to film, so a 23.98 EDL will have to be created.
In past projects, when I received telecined footage I'd reverse the telecine before syncing sound, and my EDL's have always been fine. My question is this, if I reverse telecine now, is his work syncing sound in 29.97 lost? Should I just cut in 29.97 and convert the EDL from 30 to 24 in Cinema Tools when everything is finished? I am extremely hesitant to do this, because in the past I've always tried to keep my "23.98" ducks in a row.
I'd prefer to reverse telecine and work in 23.98, but don't relish the thought of re-syncing sound that has already been synced. There's roughly 10 hours of footage.
Thanks.

I'm curious how you solved this problem - I'm assuming you did figure it out as time stands still for no Editor : - )Please share?
Thanks much.

Reverse Telecine Question (Cinema Tools)

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