Target & Max Bit Rate - A Little confusing Need file to be 15 GB Blu-Ray Help????

I have a 2 and a half hour project on PPro CS 5.5 that I want to encode in H.264 Blu-Ray. I want to get it to 15 GB.
What woud be the best settings to do so?
The Target Bit Rate and Max Bit Rate have a lot to do with it, but I am a little confused on what each of them really do.
I just want to get it to 15 GB and make sure the Estimated file size somewhat accurate.
Is 15 GB too big for a Blu-Ray?
Thanks in advance
PPro CS 5.5
Media Encoder 5.5.
Thanks in advance

Hi Jeff,
I just started to build just my menus with my QT files inside of them as a "Build to Folder."
I think I know why it's saying 7.1 GB used.
Since the menus in Encore stop and loop after 30 seconds, I did not like that.
I like to play a full song on each menu and then when the song ends, it starts again. If I did that on a standard 30 second menu in Encore, the song would stop every 30 seconds and start again. This was not acceptable to me.
This does not happen in DVD Studio Pro. In DVD Studio Pro, I can put in a full song with Videos in Video Zones, change the loop time to the length of that song, and the menu would play that song, and loop again when it was over.
I wanted to do this in Encore, so I had to make the menus a little longer than the song I wanted to put in them. I did that.
1) I went into After Effects with the background of the menu I wanted to use.
2) It comes in as a .psd file.
3) I then stretched it out to a length a little longer than the song. (For exaample, I'm using a song that is 4 minutes and 50 seconds, so I stretched out the background of that menu to 5 Minutes.)
4) I then rendered out that newly made 5 minute menu out of After Effects, using H.264 1440 x 1080i, 29.97 High Quality.
5) I then brought that newly made 5 minute background back into Encore and placed it over the original 30 second background in Encore.
6) Now the song and the videos inside the "Video Drop Zones" will loop until the song is over, stop, then the song will start again and the videos keep on looping. Just like in DVD Studio Pro
For this particular job I did this 6 times (1 for each sub-menu) depending on the length of the song I am using for each menu.
1) The first sub-menu is a 5 minute menu which, when rendered in After Effects, came out to be 1.5 GB Big
2) The second menu is a 4 minute menu which came out to be 1.2 GB
3) The third is a 4 and a half minute menu which is 1.35 GB
4) The fourth is a 3 and a half minute menu which is 1.05 GB
5) The fifth menu is another 4 minute menu which is 1.2.GB
6) The sixth menu is a 7 minute menu which is 2.1 GB.
When you add them up it actually comes out to be 8.4 GB just the menus without any videos in them.
So Encore has already compressed them down a little.
It's not the videos that are taking up much space, but these menus.
Since I am building my job in Encore to a folder, I want to see what the actual size comes out to be after it's compressd. This will give me an idea of how big I can make my 2 and a half hour wedding. The Target and Max Bit rate.
I hope that sheds some light on why Encore is saying that the menus and QT files are taking up 7.1 GB already.
I wish there was another way that I can have my menus play for the length of any song without having to go into After Effects and stretch each menu to accomodate the length of a particular song. This takes up a lot of space, but it's the way I like to make my menus.
Thanks again

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Della,
Did you try the BitVice demo yet?
I'd be happy to help, so that your experiments with it will be fruitful. If you contact Innobits with any questions, I promise I will answer you personally. You are right in the assumption that bitrate graphs will not tell you any real truths. At least not those you were looking for:-(
Dear you all, Della included of course,
As one of the scientists behind the Bitvice MPEG-2 encoder, I am sad about the time we spend helping people clarify the crazy things they hear. Fortunately there are forums, such as this one, where hopefully clarifying the same things multiple times is not necessary. (Thus the invention of the FAQ)
At BitVice we treat our customers very well, and we are happy to help on this topic also.
There are so many misconceptions about maximum bitrate floating around on the Internet. Therefore, in a perhaps futile attempt, I decided that this might the time for putting my foot down. Hopefully, it may shed some light on the subject, at least to some of you.
No names, but I know that some of you are far better than me to explain technical things in a more "popular" form to members of this forum. If any of you wish to "translate" the essence of it into a more human readable format, please contact me off-line to get a "complete story".
I am not aware of any publically available diagnostic tool, for momentary (peak) bitrate graph calculation, that could be seriously used for MPEG-2 video stream evaluation against what is meant by "maximum bitrate", as defined in the DVD, or MPEG-2, specifications. Please, correct me if you think I'm wrong.
Bitrate graphs are generally created upon inspection of a .m2v file and based on some (non-standardized) time interval.
Depending on how (by which intervals) you are calculating a momentary bitrate of a .m2v file, it may very well vary between 1 to 40 Mbps, even for DVD compliant constant bitrate streams. The MPEG-2 group was obviously aware of this fact and therefore didn't even try to define what "momentary bitrate" is. And, INTERESTINGLY, there is absolutely no need for such a measure anyway, at least not where MPEG-2 is concerned. I hope the following will help to explain why that would be like weighing of a truck by measuring its length instead, regardless whether it was empty or fully loaded.
The DVD spec. has a 9.8 Mbps limit to the video bitrate, and 10.08 Mbps for the total bitrate. However, this has very little to do with what many bitrate graphing applications is trying to tell you. I'd say, unless they offer you to decide which maximum bitrate it is supposed to measure against, it is just pulling your leg. I think this is really sad. You didn't ask, or pay, to be falsely comforted, did you?
It really doesn't work the way you are led to believe. Actually, the MPEG-2 specification is completely silent about how to even calculate any "peak" bitrate (just because it is really beside the point). Instead, this rate problem is handled in a far more sofisticated and clever way, namely by looking at the decoder buffer fullness at all times. This seems to be completely ignored by most bitrate graphing utilities.
Don't get me wrong here, such utilities can still be rather useful for getting a general idea of which parts of a movie requires more bits than others, but that's about all they can do. For your own mental health, don't fall into the trap of thinking that the highest peak (momentary bitrate) is telling you what the max bitrate is. Sorry, if this sounds confusing at first.
The correct way of interpreting the term "maximum" bitrate is
NOT by comparing to any kind of bitrate graph. That is simply because MPEG-2 does not even define any way to calculate such a thing.
Instead, one needs to think of the "maximum" bitrate as the maximum CONSTANT sustained rate, at which a decoder is capable of reading (or pulling) the data from e.g., a DVD disk. Just think about it for a little while and you will understand that it is more a property of the decoder/player than of the MPEG stream (file) itself. Of course, the responsibility of meeting these requirements rests solely on the MPEG-2 encoder. However, and this is very IMPORTANT, the encoder is COMPLETELY FREE to chose ANY strategy or policy to ascertain that the buffer requirements are complied with. That alone, is enough to leave bitrate graphing utilities in the dark of what is really going on.
If the time it takes to display some already buffered frames (which could amount to say 50 to 300 ms, as counted in display time, depending on the situation) is too short for the next (big) frame to be pulled in its entirety from the disk, then the decoder buffer will underflow. Meaning; that no complete frame was received in the buffer by the time next frame was supposed to be decoded. This situation is where you can honestly say that the bitrate of the stream was higher than the decoder was capable of reading.
However, this is a very tricky thing to capture in a bitrate graph just by inspecting the stream, unless you know everything about the current state of the buffers in general (meaning that its recent history is important) AND more specifically knowing at which rate the decoder is supposed to be pulling picture data from the disk, including, of course, any imperfections in the DVD media.
Given this maximum sustained "pulling" rate, which actually corresponds to the "ceiling" setting in BitVice terminology, it is up to the MPEG-2 encoder to create a stream (.m2v file) that will never, neither overlow nor underflow the decoders' buffers. For those who think a step further on this matter, it means that there exists no common time (duration, measured along the display-time axis, or a number of frames) over which one can calculate a peak bitrate. So, however you choose to do; averaging number of bits over one second, over half a second, over a certain amount of frames or whatever, you will NOT find the correct answer to how the bitrate graph should look like, if you want to be able to interpret the peaks as reflecting what the max bitrate is.
Let's agree that an MPEG-2 stream NEVER has a constant frame rate, as seen by a decoder reading at a constant "maximum" bitrate. From this follows;
Assuming a duration, as counted in display time, by which you can divide the number of bits to get a bitrate, is rather pointless, and also wrong. However, that is generally what is assumed by a bitrate graphing utility.
An MPEG-2 video stream NEVER has a constant frame rate, as seen by the decoder. One frame may be swallowed 5 ms and the next may take several hundred milliseconds to completely enter the decoder buffer.
This is because every frame has an individual size, which may vary most considerably (even for CBR), but the decoder reads the stream of them at the same (normally maximum, see the PS below) bitrate. So, while the decoder is displaying one single frame on your TV monitor, it may be receiving and decoding several successive smaller frames. On the other hand, while receiving/decoding larger frames (e.g., I-frames) it will have time to display many previous frames on your monitor, before a single later, and bigger, frame has been completely read into the decoder buffer. I hope this explains why you should be careful about how you interpret any bitrate graphs, especially when maximum bitrate is concerned. (That's the primary reason why we have not designed such a tool for our customers yet).
Instead, and contrary to many other encoders, we have designed the bitrate control in BitVice in such a way that;
1) The target bitrate that you choose (the average over the whole movie) is enforced, extremely accurately, usually less than 0.1%. I have seen files generated by other encoders which have been 200% off the desired bitrate, though. (To get the true average bitrate of an m2v file; divide its number of bits by its duration expressed in seconds. Then you'll see what I mean. Extremely simple math for a 12 year old kid, although the numbers may be big and therefore tend to have many digits in them;-))
2) The "Ceiling" bitrate is NEVER exceeded, not even by one single bit/s. Now, frankly, if your bitrate graphing tool says something else, then it is telling you more about itself than about a file generated by BitVice.
There is sort of a contract between encoder and decoder, like this, where X is the maximum bitrate:
Decoder:
"I promise you that I am able to read your video stream at X Mbps, or less, for as long as you wish."
Encoder:
"OK, then I promise you that my video stream would never need to be read any faster than X Mbps, at any time, and your buffer will never overflow or run dry. However, if your buffer is less than THIS big (the needed buffer size is written at the beginning of the stream, normally 1835008 bits or 224 kB), then you can as well stop already.
I don't know how every other MPEG-2 encoder works in this respect, or if bitrate graphs could be of any help in evaluating them. The only thing I can promise is that with BitVice you can rely on its bitrate control to deliver what you asked for. You could use BitVice in your evaluation of different bitrate graphing utilities though, if you like.
I'll stop here, because I sense that even those of you who have read this far may want me to;-), but, this topic is enough to fill one whole chapter of a book that I may never find the time to write.
I realize that this post may seem controversial at first, so I'm prepared to follow up on any questions, suggestions or comments that you might have.
Kindest
Roger Andersson / Innobits AB, makers of BitVice MPEG-2 encoder for Mac
PS.
Of course, a decoder is assumed to completely stop reading (pulling) from disk whenever its buffer gets full, but then continues at full speed (maximum bitrate) again, whenever the buffer is NOT full.
So the true bitrate graph, according to the decoders' view, is be very easy to recongize, becaue it will just alternate between two values, 0 Mbps and the max bitrate.
Ds.

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The whole notion of a minimum bitrate is crazy unless you have specific broadcast requirements that require you to pad out video to keep the connection alive.
If the encoder can express the image with zero loss in less than the minimum bitrate why would you pad it with zeros to get the bitrate high enough to meet the min?
The idea of a nominal/average bitrate is easy to understand.
The Maximum bitrate is often misunderstood though.
On some encoders the max rate sets the wiggle room (max - average) that can be used if there is a burst of required information.
On other encoders it sets the maximum rate at which the video buffer is allowed to fill as per the specifications. eg Blu-ray is capped at 40Mbps. The Video encode itself MAY EXCEED THAT 40Mbps for a split second but will only LOAD into the video buffer at up to 40Mbps.
For example, if you set constant bitrate at 20Mbps and no Maximum rate when the video first starts loading from the blu-ray disc to the video buffer it loads faster than the blu-ray maximum of 40Mbps. Thus you MUST have a maximum rate defined (for blu-ray compliance) even though it's a constant bitrate. Some encoders do this for you but some leave it up to the user to get right (and thus should provide a max slider and constant slider to set both).
Jeff- absolutely agree. It's very rare that you need to use all 40Mbps available to you. 20 and 30 can look great (depending on the detail in the sceen and how much motion there is).
VBR 2-pass does have value if you're trying to get down to lower rates like 10Mbps to fit a long title on a disc. If you don't action shots with sceen cuts will leave artifacts as they are bit starved.
I'm actually a big fan of Constant _Quality_ (CQ) vs CBR or VBR. You then know what quality you're going to get on every frame and from experience will know how big it will come out to be. CQ is also considerably faster to render because you have no rate control computations to do. x264pro has a CQ option for this very reason.
hope that helps.

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Hi there,
Using FCP7.
After compressing a FCP project with Compressor and burning DVDSP with DVDSP, I realized that scenes containing objects or people in rapid movement where showing jerked images.
The slow motion scenes are fine.
I checked the following
settings for DVDSP burning: VBR two pass;
averageBit rate 4,0,
max rate 7,0
1) the self-contained QT that I started with is not showing this problem.
2) the m2v file obtained from compressor (I use preset setting for high quality compression) does not show this problem when I view it with MPEG streamclip
3) I tried to burn directly the QT file with Toast 10 …get same problem if not worse !.
settings for Toast
automatic re-encoding
average rate 4,0 Mbps
max bit rate 8,0 Mbps
MPEG-2
I guess my problem comes from the bit rate I used ?
I am now confused and I am not sure I understood the impact of the bit rate setting on the quality of the resulting DVD, and I believe that using a high bit rate in DVDSP might result in problems for some clients to play the DVD on their player ?
Could it be something else ?
could someone please give me advice ?
Many thanks in advance
Ivan

I can only think of two possibilities based on the info available:
1. Old DVD player (choking on the bitrate spike)
2. You need to set some compression markers around the scenes while in FCP. This would flag Compressor to pay extra attention to that area. After you output the new clip, I suggest you use the standard High Quality preset (in Compressor) for your program duration e.g., "Highest Quality 90 minute". Don't get creative with the encoding set-up. And ALWAYS used AC-3 audio.

Blu-ray Error: "file already exists", Code: "6", "Audio buffer underflows. Total bit rate too high

Hopefully someon can help me out here - I'm stuck in my tracks. I'm reading through lots of threads on this topic, but don't understand what is going wrong here. CS6. Note: I have used Encore prior to put this material on a disc. I presently have a separate sequence paired down with only about 1/5 of the whole production. 1920x1080i, 29.97, H.264 Blu-ray, VBR 2-pass, PCM inside PP to produce .m4v/.wav. Here is what is confusing me - I tried a target of 10 and a max of 20 and I still get this error. I have tried different max bit rate "Default Transcode" settings in Encore as well. Note the time code listed "0.000000" - maybe that tells someone something. I don't really understand Encore yet, so maybe it is something I set wrong in Encore vs. my exports?

There are many similar, but not identical errors. And I assume you had already followed John's advice to review older threads. It is true they never quite pin a single set of issues down.
What specific version of Encore? Updated to 6.0.2.004? Encore staff once said updates solved some of these errors.
You say .wav for source files in Encore. But what format in the project? ac3?
Your versiono f the error is different from other one I see because it has a "audio buffer" rather than "video buffer" underflow.

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Hope this helps. Let me know if you have any other queries.
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Target & Max Bit Rate - A Little confusing Need file to be 15 GB Blu-Ray Help????

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