ACR 4.5: Improved DNG 1.2 compatibility

Elsewhere, Thomas Knoll said ACR 4.5 (currently in Beta status) was the first ACR version to fully implement the new DNG 1.2 specification.
Are there any disadvantages to expect when
i not
re-converting our raw files to DNG with the DNG Converter 4.5? What if the original raw files aren't around anymore; does it make sense to push DNG 1.0 or 1.1 files through DNG Converter 4.5?
-- Olaf

No, there are no advantages of reconverting from the original raw files vs. just "upgrading" the old DNG files to new DNG files by running them through the DNG converter again.
The primary benefit of DNG 1.2 at this time the MD5 hash of the raw data that is maintained in the DNG file. This allows Camera Raw 4.5 to detect and warning about image damage due to disk or memory errors if the DNG files gets corrupted sometime after it was first created.
The main advantage of DNG 1.2 in the future is support for the new camera profile color model, and the ability to embed multiple camera profiles in the DNG file. But that benefit requires some actual profiles that use this new model, which are not available just yet...

Similar Messages

Lightroom and DNG compatibility?

Will Lightroom read DNG converted from RAW from a camera that Lightroom doesn't support?

> "Barry what do you mean by converter? I am talking about taking a CR2 image and converting it to a DNG file."
I was talking about converting raw files in general to DNG files. (Not just CR2s). I was NOT talking about "raw conversion".
Adobe provide ACR, Lightroom, and the DNG Converter. They can all convert CR2s to DNGs (among other things). (They are all DNG converters and all raw converters, sharing core code).
Hasselblad-Imacon provide FlexColor which can convert their raw file formats to DNG. Pentax provide PHOTO Browser which can convert PEFs to DNG. Better Light supply ViewFinder for their scanning digital backs.
Then there are amateurs to who supply (typically free) converters for niche and minority and unofficial raw file formats to DNG: raw2dng; DNGForPowershot; SMaL to DNG; eMotionDng; etc:
http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/dng/products.htm#converters
http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/dng/products.htm#manufacturers
I suggest you following those links and see just what is out there.

ACR 4.6 Picture Controls

I am confused about what is happening. Any help would be appreciated.
I understand that Nikon Picture Controls can be used to change the color balance which may give better color.
I am running CS3 in a 64 bit Vista Ulimate operating system
What I am trying to understand is how the Camera Profile works in the Camera Calibration tab in ACR. I am currently shooting a Nikon D200 and a D300. I understand that Nikon picture controls can be available in the Camera Profile of the Camera Calibration tab
I went to http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/thankyou.jsp?ftpID=4040&fileID=3754 and downloaded ACR 4.6. I then unzipped and installed.
After installing ACR 4.6 I downloaded and installed GND 5.5 at http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/thankyou.jsp?ftpID=4576&fileID=4244
The Title bar in ACR shows Camera Raw 4.6. The Camera Profiles in the ACR Camera Calibration tab shows ACR 4.4 and 4.3. After installing GND 5.5 the Nikon Picture Controls (NPC) appear in Camera Profiles. When I click on one of the NPC it seems to work but the Shadows, Red green and Blue Primaries are not changed.
When I go to the DNG 5.5 DNG Converter in the compatibility section of the preferences section it says that it should work for 4.6 and later.
My confusion relates to the fact that my Camera profile in the Camera Profile shows ACR 4.3 and 4.4 – not 4.6 and the DNG converter preferences says 4.6 and later. Someone that I know who downloaded and installed ACR 4.6 and DNG at the same time has the camera profile showing 4.6.
Do I have a problem or am I spinning my wheels? If I have a problem how do I correct the Problem?

Forums #1 wrote:
My confusion relates to the fact that my Camera profile in the Camera Profile shows ACR 4.3 and 4.4 – not 4.6 and the DNG converter preferences says 4.6 and later. Someone that I know who downloaded and installed ACR 4.6 and DNG at the same time has the camera profile showing 4.6.
The fact that there are two older profile versions (4.3 & 4.4) simply mean that the FIRST version to support your camera model was 4.3. The fact that 4.4 is there as well means the profile was modified (improved) for ACR 4.4. the reason both are there are for legacy reasons...
Looking at the Profile drop-down is NOT the way you determine the current version of Camera Raw you have loaded...the ONLY way is using the "About Plug-ins" menu item or looking at the main ACR title bar in the window (as long as you aren't at full screen).
If you have the Adobe Standard and the vender looks profiles loaded, you're good to go...as to what those profile will or won't do to and for your image...well, that's for you to decide. I tend to use Adobe Standard.

Why will CS4 not open DNG files converted from Olympus E-M1 raw files?

For several years I have been able to use the DNG Converter to convert .ORF raw files from my Olympus E-M1 and then open them for processing in CS4. Suddenly CS4 quit recognizing these DNG files saying "Photoshop could not complete your request because Photoshop does not recognize this type of file"
I have not changed any preferences. I'm using E-M1 v3.0, DNG Converter v8.3.0.141 on a Mac. I have deleted DNG converter several times, even reinstalled an earlier version but nothing changes.
However, CS4 will open DNG files converted from Pentax raw .PEF files from my K-5. Weird. It's the Olympus raw DNG conversions that won't open.
I can view the DNG converted files in question in Mac's Preview just fine but not CS4. Any ideas will be appreciated.

Be sure the DNG Converter's compatibility is set to provide support for your version of ACR:
Benjamin

DNG version for PS cs4

Running PS cs4 on Windows 7. I have a new Nikon and the NEF files aren't supported. I think I need to install dng converter to access/use these files. I don't want to lose my ability to go straight to ARC without converting to dng for NEFs from my old compatable camera. What verion of dng do I need. Can it be installed separate from the the related Camera Raw upgrade?

The DNG Converter is a standalone program and converts an entire folder of raw files to DNGs, so as long as you have your old and new camera photos in separate folders it should be ok. If not, you might want to separate them temporarily before doing the conversion.
You will want the latest version of the DNG Converter that supports your new camera, so either DNG Converter 6.7 if that is new enough, or the DNGC 7.1 RC at labs.adobe.com. The DNGs it produces will be compatible with the older ACR version. Check what the DNG Converter’s compatibility setting is, using “CR 5.4 or later” for CS4’s ACR as long as you have at least that version of ACR installed for CS4.

ACR 8.8 is available - so far only via the manual-installer page

Camera Raw plug-in installer
Notably, it includes support for the Olympus E-M5 Mark II
Hopefully we'll get an DNG Converter 8.8 so Lightroom folks w/o CC can use it, although maybe that's the point, only CC users get to have it, and they can use Bridge/ACR to convert to DNGs for LR if they have the Photography Plan.

Help / Updates wasn't working, earlier in the morning.
My guess about LR is that there won't be one, but it depends on when Adobe wants to release it. LR has more overhead for a release than ACR since it is a full featured program not just a plug-in. If LR 6 is due out in the next month or two I'd guess we won't see a LR 5.8. If Adobe has given up and pushed it back until summer, then maybe they'd come back and do a LR 5.8.
In any case, the DNG Converter 8.8 would be the way to go if you want to work with things before LR 6 or LR 5.8 if there would be one.

CS4 won't open DNG files

I've converted some Olympus RAW(ORF) files using DNG converter 6.7 that supports my camera. The files converted, the icons are in the folder, but if I try to open the file(s) all I get is "Photoshop does not recognize this type of file."

You need to set the DNG preferences for compatibility to "Camera Raw 5.4 and later" for CS4 (I think).
Richard Southworth

ACR PSD files - larger file size and max compatible

When using ACR > Save As to save a bunch of PSD files from raw files the resulting PSD file sizes are larger.
for example:
if I output and save from ACR directly to a folder as a PSD, I'm seeing the file size at 63.1 MB
If I open the raw file to PS and save it within Photoshop to a PSD file the file size is 56.1 MB ( this is true whether the Max Compatible is turned on or off... probably because it's a flat PSD file)
why the difference? same output settings from ACR, bit depth etc.
Also,
The file saved out of ACR appears to be "tagged" as a Maximum compatible file even though it is flat, so subsequent saves, even if the PS pref is set to Never for maximum compatibility are disregarded. Whereas the same file that was opened into PS from ACR and then saved with the Never PS pref behaves correctly.
Is there a preference setting within ACR to not save the PSD's as Maximum compatible?
thanks
j
ACR 6.4
PS 12.0.4
10.6.7

Hi Noel
I may not have been clear in my post. It's not about PSD v. Raw file size, just comparing PSD files.
Starting with a raw file ( in this case a 5DmII CR2)
Using the same settings (mid-bottom of ACR window) when saving a file using the "save image" within ACR or opening the file into PS and then saving. This is where I'm seeing the file size difference.
The second part of the problem is that PSD files that are saved directly out of ACR using the "save image" (bottom left of ACR window) are all set as Maximum Compatibility. As a result opening these files will always be have the extra data and saving time that files with Maximum Compatibility enabled have. The only way to get around this is to have your PS prefs set to Never or Ask and the "Save As" to overwrite the file.
I just reprocessed a folder of PSD's that were saved out of ACR by overwriting as above and the 36 files (with layers, retouching etc) went from 6.9GB to 5.6GB, and the save time is also faster.
This isn't intended to be a discussion about the benefits or disadvantages of the Maximum Compatibiliy "feature", but just a question as to whether it can be turned off in PSDs saved from ACR.
thanks
j

I'm considering buying CC LR/PS package. My camera is Sony a7 - raw ARW. I've been editing using PSE10 and ver 8.7 of the external Adobe DNG converter. Will I be able to open the DNG files in LR with the edits preserved? Will I be able to open the PSD fil

I'm considering buying CC LR/PS package. My camera is Sony a7 - raw ARW. I've been editing using PSE10 and ver 8.7 of the external Adobe DNG converter. Will I be able to open the DNG files in LR with the edits preserved? Will I be able to open the PSD files in LR with the edits preserved? Any import/catalog etc issues between PSE10 and LR?

Lightroom has no problem reading DNG files. Whether the edits you have done to the DNGs you have originally edited in Photoshop Elements 10 I'm not sure. ACR edits made to DNGs are saved in the DNG file itself, as apposed to a XMP sidecar file, so LR should see those edits. At the worst you will get an exclamation mark in the upper right hand corner of the imported DNGs and clicking on that exclamation mark you will get a dialog box asking you to either import settings from disk or overwrite settings. you would select import settings from disk.

CS3 Mac can't get ACR working since Sno Leopard

Since upgrading to Snow Leopard I had a range of problems.
I fixed them for a bit; re loading CS3, updating CS3, ACR etc
But then after I cropped files I was getting error messages saying to install a printer (despite the Epson R288 working fine)
So I tried re loading (after deactivating) and now I am going in circles trying to find the right ACR and DNG reader working.
So; where are ACR updates for CS3 hid (CS4 is easy to find)
WHere does DNG converter reside
Thanks

Yeah I think I had gone down that path which when you select camera raw Macintosh and you end up with Ver 5.5 for ACR and ditto for DNG converter; but these turn out to be for CS4 if you go down on the download page and see the system requirements.
So I gave them another go, and found they don't work as it is the wrong PS version (CS3 not the CS4 these 5.5's are looking for)
So went and put the version 4.6 ACR for CS3 in and so far so good.
Thanks though, but Adobe have to confuse things by numbering ACR's in a cofused manner

About to use DNG Profile editor

I've had my Colorchecker for a few weeks, and I finally have time to set up my profiles for LR 3.4. In reading the DNG Profile editor tutorial page (http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/DNG_Profiles:Editor), I have a few questions:
1) If I use Tutorial 5, I am guessing I will have to create a profile for each lighting/WB condition, i.e., one for Tungsten, one for Fluorescent, one for sunny, one for overcast, one for flash, etc... Is that correct? Is there an advantage to doing this vs. going for the dual-illuminant approach explained in Tutorial 6?
2) In Tutorial 6, for the dual illuminant profiles, it states that one of the reference shots should be taken at 6500K. I'm not quite sure how to achieve this, since daylight and flash, to semi-constant WB sources I can easily achieve, are around 5000-5600K.
3) Should I (in LR) White-balance the Colorchecker reference shots, then convert to DNG, prior to bringing the DNG file into DNG Profile editor? Or is it preferable to WB as explained in Tutorial 1, step 3?
4) Finally, it's somewhat unclear how I bring the profiles into LR for use during the Import or Develop phases. Tutorial 1, step 9 mentions a "CameraProfiles directory" for ACR and LR, so I'm guessing I need to go digging through the Adobe folders to locate this directory and place/save my profiles there?

eswrite wrote:
1) If I use Tutorial 5, I am guessing I will have to create a profile for each lighting/WB condition, i.e., one for Tungsten, one for Fluorescent, one for sunny, one for overcast, one for flash, etc... Is that correct?
If you want a broad purpose DNG profile then yes, doing a dual illuminate profile is useful. Shoot a target under tungsten and under daylight and make the dual illuminate profile. There's no real reason you need to spawn off a bunch of other profiles for only slightly different light. The dual illuminate will handle cloudy or overcast just fine. If you also shoot with special lighting sources like fluorescent (which doesn't have a complete spectrum) or other non-standard lighting sources then do a profile for those special conditions. If you are creating a profile specifically for studio flash, you can get by doing only a single illuminate profile for the strobes...but in that case, the profile won't be as accurate if you also try to use it under tungsten–which would be the reason to do a dual illuminate profile.
As far as the D65 color temp, the closer you can get to it the better, but D55 should work fine. The key is to make sure it's evenly lit. The big difference between D65/D50/D55 is the relative amount of the blue light components-all three will be fairly close. Tungsten however has vastly less blue which can impact the sensor's spectral response–which is why the dual illuminate is suggested.
Once you do the CC shot, don't bother with tone/color corrections in ACR before converting to DNG. They won't have a material impact on the profile creation. The CC shot MUST be evenly lit and of an optimal exposure...
As far as where the profile goes, it depends on the system. Once you've created the profile, PE should default to the correct location, otherwise state your system and we can tell you where to put them.

DNG conversion fails sporadically with Get Photos From Camera

Camera: Canon 40D and 5D
XP SP2
CS3
Bridge 2.1.1.9
ACR 4.4.1
DNG Converter 4.3.1
Importing my files to Bridge using the Get Photos from Camera (GPFC) option results in sporadic DNG conversion failure. There's no pattern, just a lump of files that don't get converted at the end of the process. It's very frustrating because I have to manually go back and find the files that failed and use GPFC option again. Even then sometimes it fails again!
I'm attached to using the GPFC option instead of the standalone DNG converter because GPFC lets me automatically make a backup file to another disk and adds a template. But even when I use DNG Converter to import the files off my card, DNG fails for some of the files. Purging the cache only works half the time and for some of the files.
Is there any solution to the GPFC problem? I've seen people have similar problems, but with no real conclusions...
Any ideas? Thanks in advance.

Ramon,
No, I have tried purging/refreshing before and it doesn't help, because the un-converted CR2 files are just skipped over and put in the same destination folder as the successfully converted CR2 files (to DNG). I thought it might be a memory issue, but I never have any other applications open. As a test, I purposely opened some other applications to see if MORE CR2 files would be skipped, but the amount of files skipped was still random.
My "DNG Conversion Settings," accessed through the Get Photos From Camera dialogue, is set to:
Jpeg Preview: Medium Size
Compressed (Checked)
Preserve Raw Image (Checked)
Embed Original Raw File (UN CHECKED)
Could some of my Edit>Preferences>Cache options be overloading things and causing skips? I use the default settings because I wasn't confident with messing around with the cache.
Thanks

How do I update ACR from 7.1 to 7.4 ?

Hi
I updated PSE from version 9 to version 11 just to get ACR 7.4 for my Nikon D7100 camera
Installation went smoothly. But I discovered Adobe does not include the latest ACR version. SO I have ACR 7.1 installed. Well, it does not support the D7100
Went to Help menu. Updates option is not highlighted. ???? Cant use it!!! Why ? My product is installed and registered ???
Anyway, I went to the ACR download page. No ACR 7.4 alone but ACR with DNG. What the hell I took the last one. Version 8.1
Downloaded DNG 8.1 and installed it. Fine. Well, I can start DNG alone but no ACR visible. Back to PSE 11: It still only sees ACR 7.1
Have I downloaded ACR when I downloaded DNG ?
Should I download it separately ? Where from ?
If I did download it, how do I make PSE 11 recognize ACR 7.4 is available?
Extremely frustrating evening: I hesitated upgrading to PSE 11 for months because of this type of problems. When I finally take the jump, it hits me in the face.

Here are the steps to install camera raw 8.1 manually.
1. Download the 8.1 zip file
http://swupdl.adobe.com/updates/oobe/aam20/win/PhotoshopCameraRaw7-7.0/8.1.79/setup.zip
2. Extract the setup.zip by right clicking and choosing Extract All
3. Double click on payloads then double click on AdobeCameraRaw7.0All-290513174249
4. Extract the folder Assets1_1.zip
5. in the folder Assets1_1 rename (right click) the 1003 to Camera Raw.8bi
6. right click on the Camera Raw.8bi and choose copy
7. Go to C:\Program Files\Common Files\Adobe\Plug-Ins\Elements 11\File Formats and drag the old camera raw plugin to the trash, then
right click in the folder and choose paste
With any luck next time you go to open your Nikon D7100 files in pse 11 you'll have camera raw 8.1

DNG converter and USB 3.0

I replaced a 6 year old Sandisk USB 2.0 compact flash card reader with a new Kingston USB 3.0 reader. Was hoping to get faster transfer rates using the Adobe DNG converter to xfer and rename directly from the compact flash card to hard disk.
Didn't happen. The conversion/xfer times are identical. But if I just copy files from the compact flash card readers to hard disk using Windows Explorer drag-and-drop, the USB 3.0 unit is about twice as fast.
Using a random batch of 40 raw files, it takes the DNG Converter 46 seconds to complete the job using either card reader. Using Windows Explorer to just copy, the USB 3.0 unit does it in 14 seconds while the USB 2.0 unit does it in 28 seconds. So USB 3.0 is twice as fast.
I didn't expect the DNG Converter to be twice as fast. Part of its job is conversion and part is I/O. I would guess 60% to 70% for conversion, leaving 30% to 40% for I/O. So I thought a 50% reduction of the I/O time would be reasonable.
What am I missing in this logic?

Thanks for the reply, Noel.
But strange, I never thought of using ACR to do the DNG conversion, so I tried it. Updated ACR to the curent 6.5 version first. My timing results were the same as using the DNG converter.
Again, a random batch of 40 raw files read from a compact flash card on a USB 3.0 card reader. A total of about 388mb. The DNG converter does the batch in 47 seconds, and ACR does it in 48 seconds. Identical times given the degree of error in my punching a stop watch.
If I copy the raw files to hard disk first and then use either ACR or the DNG converter to convert (HDD to HDD) I get the same 47-48 seconds.
So I'm curious why my ACR times are the same as DNG converter while you say ACR is twice as fast on your system. For what it's worth, my system is Windows 7, 8GB memory, on an intel I5 quad core processor.
The DNG files created by ACR are all about 50 to 55kb larger than the DNG files created by the DNG converter. But I noticed looking at the metadata in Bridge than the DNG files created by ACR have Camera Raw data in the EXIF, while the same files created by the DNG converter do not. I imagine that explains the few extra bytes. But loading the two files into Photoshop and doing a "difference" blend mode proves they are identical.
In any case, I've learned that USB 3.0 gives no advantage over USB 2.0 in this application.

DNG/raw+XMP workflow comparison

[ Note: this discussion has been branched from an existing one (link on top ^) and deals about DNG-raw+XMP -PECourtejoie ]
Omke Oudeman wrote:
What Disk based XMP data file you are referring to and you think Camera Raw get's involved in this while writing metadata? Could you specify your thoughts about that, I thought it only reads the new thumbnail after saving metadata to the newly saved filed after a keyword has been added.
And an other thought, you have to set the Camera Raw general section to save image settings to either side car XMP files or Camera Raw Database. Might this be of importance to set to either of the two for testing. That said, default is sidecar files and I don't see any benefit with saving in a central data base instead of having the settings traveling in (DNG) or beside (XMP sidecar)
I deal primarily with image files, specifically NEF, PSD, and JPG. All Camera Raw 'edits' are stored to the XMP sidecar files (in the case of NEF files), or as embedded metadata (in the case of the other formats). Of course, they aren't really edits, and are more like conversion instructions for Camera Raw.
Whenever I keyword raw files, their XMP sidecars are modified to include the keywords. If you inspect one of these XMP sidecars, you will see that they contain Camera Raw settings, keywords, and camera EXIF data--anything you might need to know about the image, stored externally to the image file. I don't know for sure, but I guess that some or all of this information is also stored in the Bridge database. I would never dream of trusting XMP data to a single database, as it constitutes many hundreds/thousands of hours' work. As it stands, I like that I can keep the XMP with my raw files, where I can see them!
It's important not to get confused between the Bridge database and the Bridge cache, and the equivalent database/cache belonging to Camera Raw. I haven't found much information on the Bridge database--I guess it's central to the operation of Bridge and the way it handles files and its cache. The Bridge cache appears quite straightforward, being a hierarchy of jpegs designed to allow Bridge to display images quickly.
Bridge uses Camera Raw in order to generate 'High Quality' thumbnails and previews of supported image types, based on XMP data, optionally including TIFF and JPEG. Camera Raw has its own mysterious database and cache, but this internal working is irrelevant to this subject (AFAIK) as Bridge only uses Camera Raw as an API for generating previews for the cache, and keeps an eye on any file updates made externally in order to keep its own records up-to-date. This is presumably why Bridge is always reading the disk.

I deal primarily with image files, specifically NEF, PSD, and JPG. All Camera Raw 'edits' are stored to the XMP sidecar files (in the case of NEF files), or as embedded metadata (in the case of the other formats). Of course, they aren't really edits, and are more like conversion instructions for Camera Raw.
Same here although my NEF's are CR2 form Canon and always converted to DNG, so no worry about sidecar files that can be lost
Whenever I keyword raw files, their XMP sidecars are modified to include the keywords. If you inspect one of these XMP sidecars, you will see that they contain Camera Raw settings, keywords, and camera EXIF data--anything you might need to know about the image, stored externally to the image file. I don't know for sure, but I guess that some or all of this information is also stored in the Bridge database. I would never dream of trusting XMP data to a single database, as it constitutes many hundreds/thousands of hours' work. As it stands, I like that I can keep the XMP with my raw files, where I can see them!
Here is where I got a little lost, as earlier stated I was not aware of keywords, labels and rating stored in sidecar XMP, I always thought those files only contained the ACR settings. Using DNG one of the many pro's (sorry Mike, don't want to start again ) is that all info is stored in the file itself and no sidecar files.
And to be honest, I won't have many problems with lost ACR settings, they can be easily recreated for my workflow and in the analog days you were also not able to recreate a negative in the same way after a few days or more due to different chemicals/temperature, enlarger light source strength, other box of paper and not to forget your own moods....
But losing other IPTC settings like copyright and keywords is a problem. When having converted ('developed') the raw files there is no problem for this info, it is stored in the file info and according to IPTC standards visible by most applications.
I have decided to not provide vital info on raw files (CR2 or DNG) other then rating/labeling and changing the filename to yyyymmdd and sequence number. My keywords and description etc are only added to the keepers. They are renamed too but with the same yyyymmdd and a more relevant name and sequence number. I also include the original filename option while batch renaming. The DNG files are just stored on a HD with a proper year and date folder structure, there are also far to much raw files to put all those effort for keywording in.
The keepers are going in my central archive and I use Canto Cumulus single user as DAM. When needed I can find the originals very easy, even don't use Bridge to look for the right one, just glance at the original filename, use the Finder (windows explorer?) to find the files on the external HD and copy the wanted file with some others from same series and these are cached in Bridge to look at and work on. I do so because Bridge takes to long to cache (even with only thumbs) from external sources and the above mentioned method is much faster
It's important not to get confused between the Bridge database and the Bridge cache, and the equivalent database/cache belonging to Camera Raw. I haven't found much information on the Bridge database--I guess it's central to the operation of Bridge and the way it handles files and its cache. The Bridge cache appears quite straightforward, being a hierarchy of jpegs designed to allow Bridge to display images quickly.
For me there is no confusion between Bridge cache and ACR cache, they are both easy to find and I regularly dump the whole Cache file for Bridge after it has grown over 30 GB in size. I can't rely on Bridge for use of DAM and it gives a fresh start and the cache rebuilding is not that time consuming when it can do its work and you don't need the computer yourself. I also don't worry about the ACR cache, it does not grow above 1GB and replaces the oldest with the newest so don't have to clean it myself.
just wondering where to find the Bridge Database, can't find it and according to the activity it should have huge sizes??
It is still a mystery to me.

ACR 4.5: Improved DNG 1.2 compatibility

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