HDV Compression Oddity?

I have searched everywhere for an answer to this; hopefully, someone here can help me. When editing HDV footage in FCP, I have noticed objects that should be stationary randomly moving from side to side slightly, while nothing else in the frame moves (the camera was locked down). For example, a photo lying on top of a dark piece of fabric appears to move from left to right slightly, even though the camera is locked down, and the dark background the photo is on top of does not move.
The objects that do appear to move do not move fast, and it is more like they "jump" over a few frames to the right, then a split second later "jump" a few frames to the left.
I am guessing this is a strange effect from the HDV compression scheme. Am I right? The footage was shot with a Canon XH A1, using the 30F mode. I am editing in a NTSC 1080i60 timeline.
Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Are you only seeing this in the canvas and viewer? The canvas is a low rez proxy, and only displays both fields if set to 100%.
You need to view it on an external monitor, or at least, if it's interlaced burn a dvd and view it on a TV. If it's progressive you could export a quicktime and view it on a computer monitor.
You may have no problem at all, or you may be correct and it's a compression artifact.

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I'm having the same issue-strangely, earlier this week, I exported a video from my Sony NEX-5 (native resolution of the video is 1440X1080)using Export > Quicktime Movie > Current Settings. Less than 24 hrs later, I'm exporting, and now my 16:9 movie looks like it's 4:3. I haven't changed anything in the settings, and my other videos look ok in quicktime player, so the advice from the other thread of changing quicktime player settings doesn't work. Nor is anamorphic checked in the sequence settings--per another thread's advice. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

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You cannot capture DV as 1080i using the DSR-11 thru firewire. You'd need an HD capture card and a deck with SDI inputs or component outputs and RS-422 deck control. Then you can capture it as another codec. I see that you mention the Kona card in your Subject line, but don't mention it at all in your workflow. I am not sure you can capture from the DSR-11 using the Kona. Hmmm...maybe if you use firewire as deck control, but capture with the S-video or composite outs. But...then again...what Kona? Kona 2 and 3 are SDI only. Kona LH has what you need.
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HDV compression not letterboxing

Howdy, folks!
I've searched the boards here, but am unable to find the answer to my question.
I'm shooting HDV footage, capturing and editing fine, but when I try to output to SD w/ letterboxing, as is requested, the video is always squeezed. What the heck is going on?
Sequence settings: 1440x1080 (HD 16x9; Pixel Aspect Ratio is HD (1440x1080) and anamorphic is NOT checked; QT Settings for Compressor are HDV 1080i60
Thanks, ahead of time!

I misspoke. The footage is P2 size (960x720) and the sequence settings are appropriately HD 960x720 (16:9) w/ a Pixel Aspect Ratio of HD 960x720 and Anamorphic is NOT checked. The QT Video Settings are DVCPRO HD 720p60. There is absolutely no problem editing the footage with these settings.
I've tried toggling Anamorphic, exporting "use Letterboxing if necessary", in the QT Export settings I'm using DV/DVCPRO - NTSC w/ dimensions of both 4:3 and 16:9 and a size of the same. None of this seems to letterbox the final output.
What I mentioned previously was a sequence issue when either dragging or pasting the footage into a 4:3 sequence - somehow half the footage letterboxed in the timeline, yet the other half became squished.
Two problems, neither of which I can figure. You guys are definitely putting me on the right track, and I appreciate it! Any thoughts on this new info?

Hdv lines when compressed

i am working on an hdv project. i am capturing using easy set up hdv 1080i60. everything is fine in the timeline but when i export to a quicktime movie, there are some lines in the picture. especially when there is a lot of motion. you can really see it in some shots where there are fast moving objects that go from the right side of the frame to the left side of the frame. it is almost like a "digital trail". does anybody know what this is? and how to prevent this?
thanks,
clay

does anybody know what this is?
That is an artifact of the HDV compression. Fast movement, especially side to side, causes horrid artifacting. This is due to how HDV compresses the image. HDV is 1440x1080...anamorphic 1920x1080...and runs about 13.5GB/hour. Now DV is 720x480, and runs about 13.3GB/hour. They have roughly the same data rate, yet HDV is 3 to 4 times the size of DV, dimension wise. So what does that tell you about compression? That HDV is HIGHLY compressed.
and how to prevent this?
Don't shoot fast motion or fast panning shots with HDV. Or, don't shoot HDV. Not what you want to hear owning an HDV camera, but that is the drawback to the format. You can capture uncompressed HD formats, or better compressed HD formats, with the use of capture cards, but then you need to tote around a MacPro, and that isn't very "in the field" friendly.
Shane

Balckmagic Intensity Pro Vs. HDV Firewire capture

Assuming a suitable computer and FCP6.
what are the benefits , if any, of capturing via the Intensity Pro card using the HDMI input?
so far what i know is that it uses mjpeg compression (better than HDV compression?)
and you can capture using ProRes codec.
thus avoiding the GOP timeline and long renders.
some suggest the image quality is quite a bit better too.
plus you get a HDMI output for a monitor which seems a big plus for the low cost.
anyone used this card like this?

The big plus with HDMI is an all digital uncompressed signal in a full raster 1920x1080 resolution 4:2:2 color space hardware conversion into the capture card. It is my opinion that the quality is the best it will ever be. Yes you can transcode to Pro Rez given you have an Intel unit or quad G5 to keep up with the software conversion. Yes by transcoding you will avoid HDV conforming. It is well known that converting to an all i-frame codec like DVC Pro HD or Pro Rez is a great way to work from HDV sources. And yes you can either monitor HDV or any other HD format with this card.
Good Luck
Z1

HDV export preset?

I began my motion project with an HDV 1080i 60 preset.
When it came time to export I exported to a quicktime file using the HDV1080i60 compressor. (1440x1080)
When go into FCP and try and drop the file into an HDV 1080i60 sequence I am forced to render...
How can this be when all settings are equivalent.
I also noticed that there is no HDV preset for export in motion, even with the HDV settings motion is calling the export preset a "customized" DV NTSC movie
Any suggestions on how to get it in to FCP w/o rendering again?

Although I don't use HDV, I use DVDPROHD, I think I can answer your question since they work the same in Motion. FCP needs to render a Motion project regardless of what settings you've picked in Motion - in Motion, the settings are not tied to a specific codec, they're simply width/height/frame rate/etc. Think of a Motion project on the FCP timeline as an uncompressed file with HDV dimensions and frame rate - FCP needs to render the file before it can play in realtime alongside the HDV-compressed material you are editing with.
So, you can either let FCP do the rendering of the uncompressed file to HDV, or you can do it in Motion by exporting to HDV codec, but either way, a render of some kind has to take place, it's just a question of where you do it. The advantage of letting FCP do it is the round-tripping works better since you can go back and edit the Motion file multiple times without re-importing, so that's usually the best way to handle it.
Motion didn't include a DVDPROHD preset, either. Hitting the Options button just temporarily modifies whatever preset is currently shown in the list, which is why it says customized on the DV NTSC export preset after you change it. But that's ok - I made my own, there's a preferences pane in Motion where you can make new export presets. I just copied one of the existing ones, renamed it to DVDPRO HD 720p 30 QT, and set up the codec and other settings how I wanted it. I made that the default and now I get DVCPRO HD movies every time I export, it should work exactly the same for HDV.
PowerMac G5 1.8 Ghz

Need Help, crazy HDV Problem with Final Cut

Hi Guys, first thanks for looking my problem.
I have a new Macbook Pro 2,4Ghz with 4GB RAM and Leopard 10.5.4
So also I have Final Cut Studio 1 updated on 5.1.4.
My problem: As i captured HDV Material i saw in Quicktime, that there are many fragments, more terrible then hdv compression.In Final Cut 5 the same. So i was looking for an other Mac, so i've found an G5 also with Final Cut 5.1.4 and Tiger OS. But there i saw nothing, no fragments, all good(same material).
So i think its a problem with between macbook pro,leopard, hdv and final cut 5.1.4
Can anyone help me, im also able to give you a screenshot with the fragmets. There are very strong to see in the grey colors.
Thanks

http://www.bilder-space.de/show.php?file=Gqur6a5PA7NZW2K.jpg
here is a screen from my problem, thats nomal resulution ... HDV in Final Cut, look at the fragments left and right, thats not normal !
Message was edited by: jenderbender
Message was edited by: jenderbender

How to back up HDV to tape on a Mac?

They say it can't be done, but I was wondering if more experienced hands found a way to back up HDV to tape on a Mac? I'm editing on CS5.5, platform Mac 10.7

Hi David,
Sounds like you have decided to archive video clips to drives, but just wanted to add that if you exported back to HDV tape, the HDV compression is very lossy, so you are way better off to use ProRes or Avid DNxHD codec or similar and keep an edit-master quality file for later repurposing. And no down time to re-capture either! Years ago, when drives were small and expensive, I sent completed edits back to miniDV or DVCAM masters. I quit that some years back and it's all on drives now.
Thanks
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Exporting an Apple ProRes before compressing for SD-DVD or Blu-ray (or AVCH

Hello,
this is my question:
does exporting a sequence to an Apple ProRes Self Contained file helps to gain quality when compressing for SD-DVD or Blu-ray (or AVCH disc)?

Thanks for answering, Tom.
Let me try again, though. (Also, just thinking about the footage, forgetting about effects, titles, etc.)
Do you think that this applies to DV-NTSC and HDV sequences?
I've compared a DV-NTSC sequence exported out using:
DV-NTSC compression and one -using Apple ProRes.
They do look different. Wouldn't you agree to this?
What about HDV,
- is it erroneous to think that (when capturing) by transcoding to AIC or ProRes you are gaining some quality?
- or if you already capture HDV natively, it doesn't make a difference to export an ApplePro Res version to make a SD-DVD from?
I am concerned with this, because I shot once some HDV footage at night with a Sony Camera, going to a hard drive, and when I transcoded the files from the hard drive to use in FCP, (using MPEG streamclip) I noticed a relevant difference in how much the noise was noticeable on the HDV compressed files vs. the apple ProRes compressed files.
Have you ever seen these differences?
Thanks!!!

HDV or AVCHD editing = processor utilization = import/exp. quality loss

Hello,
my question about processability of HDV/AVCHD Movies with iMovie. I have learned that HDV and AVCHD files are transfered in the AIC format. That should mean editig a movie would be always in the AIC format and I assume no difference whether I come from HDV or AVCHD format it should be similar demanding to the core2duo processor except initial transcoding from H264 to AIC - is this right?. When I save a movie out of iMovie do I save it in AIC or in HDV/AVCHD? Is there a quality loss transferring a movie back and forth from/to HDV/AVCHD to AIC since HDV employs mpeg2 and AVCHD employs H264 which are both compressed formats? Practically does this also mean that AIC can work as a bridge to between both formats?
Thanks for your replies to my several questions!

I have cut/pasted this from another thread where I posted it following a question from a Canon HV20 owner. The info applies to all HDV and AVCHD cams though. Might help you decide.
This comes from www.camcorderinfo.com
Compression (7.0)
The Canon HV20 (Review, Specs, Recent News, $903) uses HDV compression, a very efficient MPEG-2 codec with a fixed data rate of 25Mbps, identical to the data rate of standard definition DV compression. HDV excels in capturing stunningly high-resolution video, but it is inferior to DV in terms of rendering motion realistically, due to its dependence on interframe compression. This means that at 1080i, only one in fifteen frames is a full-frame picture, while the intervening frames are compressed in relation to each full I frame. Interframe compression is much more efficient than intraframe compression, and allows HDV to squeeze a full 1920 x 1080 picture into a 25Mbps stream, recordable to inexpensive MiniDV tapes. DV uses intraframe compression, so each frame is a fully independent picture, allowing much better motion capture. DV also uses a superior 4:1:1 color space while HDV encodes via a truncated 4:2:0 color space.
The inherent weaknesses of HDV have led many networks to deem the format sub-standard for broadcast, but it is still the best high definition format available on the consumer camcorder market. Most consumers find the stunning resolution of HDV trumps the superior motion handling of DV. A professionally lit HDV interview (or any HDV shot without too much detail or motion) can look nearly as good as footage shot in a professional HD format on a $20,000 camera. AVCHD, a new HD format that uses H.264 compression was introduced in 2006 and compresses video even more aggressively than HDV. Our tests of Canon's UX1 (Review, Specs, Recent News, $729.95) and SR1 (Review, Specs, Recent News, $1119.99) last fall show that while AVCHD video is very sharp, it suffers from grain and artifacts much more than HDV compression. The wildcard in the consumer high definition arena is a new MPEG-2 format developed by JVC, the MPEG Transfer Stream codec, which appears for the first time in the Everio HD7 (Review, Specs, Recent News, $1529). MPEG Transport Stream compresses video at up to 30Mbps, and may rival or even outclass HDV compression.
Media (6.0)
Like other HDV camcorders, the Canon HV20 records to MiniDV cassettes, the same inexpensive and widely available format used by standard definition DV camcorders. MiniDV cassettes have a run time of 60 minutes in SP mode, but can hold up to 90 minutes of more compressed LP video. Unlike the DVD, memory card, and HDD formats, MiniDV tapes are linear media so moving clips to a PC from tape is a real-time process. For anyone serious about the quality of his or her video, HDV recorded to MiniDV cassette remains the best consumer HD option available. To date, consumer non-linear video formats do not support the highest-quality video compression codices for high definition (HDV) and standard definition (DV).

Capture HD 720p25 non compressed through KONA 3

HI EVERYONE, it's the first time I write here. I've reached to capture hd 720p25 uncompressed material from my JVC HD-111e through KONA 3. To do this you need an XRAID, a KONA 3 and an AJA HD10AVA converter hd component/hd sdi. Ok, a lot of money. Results? No results. No apreciable difference between HDV 720p25 and HD 720p25 (a part from the weight of the files more than 5 times higher). Even in chroma key scene, no appreciable difference on edges of subjects.
Two possibilities:
FIRST- HDV compression is so efficient that you have no reasons to capture non compressed 720p25.
SECOND- I'm doing something wrong.
If someone had passed through something similar, I will accept every suggestions.
By now, my suggest is: don't spend money for capturing HDV in the native uncompressed format!
I hope that someone could deny me!

Welcome to the forum steu!
The gain is in render times... that's the big reason to do this. You can't improve video per se by just upconverting it. The damage was done in camera when you shot the format. But any graphics you add, CGI's, stills will all be of better quality. But the REAL reason to upconvert to another format is to save time. FWIW, if you have an intel Mac, a better format to upres to is ProRes 4:2:2... that said, your chroma keys won't improve because the color information needed to make them clean wasn't recorded in the first place.
I'll give you an example... on my old trusty dual G5, compressing native HDV to SD MPEG took 10 TIMES longer than compressing from DVCPROHD. ProRes is even a larger file than DVCPROHD, so ya have to keep that in mind, however graphics, CGI stuff, and stills look much better to my old eyes.
Jerry

Random HDV clips choppy

Hi gang,
I'm editing HDV clips (1440x1080/25p) on a MBP with 4gig ram and FW800 drives.
Now, opening the clips in the viewer and playing them back is generally fine, I've done a fair amount of HDV (and ProRes) stuff on this MBP and it can handle it fine.
However - occasionally some clips will playback choppily, and watching the CPU meter rise the computer is obviously struggling playing the clips back. It's always the same clips, in other words, ones that are affected stay affected, all the other clips are fine. This is about, what, 5 clips in 500 odd.
Why would most HDV clips play fine, and some seem to require a lot of grunt to playback? Is it to do with edit points causing the HDV compression to require CPU intervention?
And most importantly, is there anything I can do about it? it's not the end of the world, as I can drop them into the timeline and render, but it's bugging me...
Edit: Ok, this is interesting. The affected clip is actually according to FCP an HDV 1080i50 clip. However, the data rate is consistent with my 25p footage and not the other 50i footage, and more importantly, looking at the footage at 100%, it is not interlaced at all.
So it would seem that FCP has incorrectly interpreted this footage on ingest as 50i when it is actually 25p - and presumably because of this is having to do some CPU mojo to play it back, resulting in choppy video.
Any thoughts?

Oh well - I used Compressor to pretend that the footage was progressive, then converted it out to ProRes and that has done the job - and it's what I will do if/when this situation happens again.

Hdv Quicktimes

Recently someone dropped off to me a hard drive with quicktimes for editing. When I open the Qts there is audio but only a white screen for video. I checked the codec used and it was HDV 1080i60. Are the files bad or is HDV compression not supported by QuickTime?

I havn't used FinalCut but why do they use an HDV codec with its compression scheme(long GOP, no 30 fps) as a editing format. I thought they had a great HD format.

AVCHD/HDV files with a MacBook Pro

I'm trying to decide between a AVCHD and HDV camera. A lot of people warn against the hardware needed to work with AVCHD files. But, are AVCHD files any more processor heavy than HDV? Once the files are imported, aren't both AIC at that point?
I am on a 2.16ghz Core 2 Duo with iMovie 8?

I have cut/pasted this from another thread where I posted it following a question from a Canon HV20 owner. The info applies to all HDV and AVCHD cams though. Might help you decide.
Compression (7.0)
The Canon HV20 (Review, Specs, Recent News, $903) uses HDV compression, a very efficient MPEG-2 codec with a fixed data rate of 25Mbps, identical to the data rate of standard definition DV compression. HDV excels in capturing stunningly high-resolution video, but it is inferior to DV in terms of rendering motion realistically, due to its dependence on interframe compression. This means that at 1080i, only one in fifteen frames is a full-frame picture, while the intervening frames are compressed in relation to each full I frame. Interframe compression is much more efficient than intraframe compression, and allows HDV to squeeze a full 1920 x 1080 picture into a 25Mbps stream, recordable to inexpensive MiniDV tapes. DV uses intraframe compression, so each frame is a fully independent picture, allowing much better motion capture. DV also uses a superior 4:1:1 color space while HDV encodes via a truncated 4:2:0 color space.
The inherent weaknesses of HDV have led many networks to deem the format sub-standard for broadcast, but it is still the best high definition format available on the consumer camcorder market. Most consumers find the stunning resolution of HDV trumps the superior motion handling of DV. A professionally lit HDV interview (or any HDV shot without too much detail or motion) can look nearly as good as footage shot in a professional HD format on a $20,000 camera. AVCHD, a new HD format that uses H.264 compression was introduced in 2006 and compresses video even more aggressively than HDV. Our tests of Canon's UX1 (Review, Specs, Recent News, $729.95) and SR1 (Review, Specs, Recent News, $1119.99) last fall show that while AVCHD video is very sharp, it suffers from grain and artifacts much more than HDV compression. The wildcard in the consumer high definition arena is a new MPEG-2 format developed by JVC, the MPEG Transfer Stream codec, which appears for the first time in the Everio HD7 (Review, Specs, Recent News, $1529). MPEG Transport Stream compresses video at up to 30Mbps, and may rival or even outclass HDV compression.
Media (6.0)
Like other HDV camcorders, the Canon HV20 records to MiniDV cassettes, the same inexpensive and widely available format used by standard definition DV camcorders. MiniDV cassettes have a run time of 60 minutes in SP mode, but can hold up to 90 minutes of more compressed LP video. Unlike the DVD, memory card, and HDD formats, MiniDV tapes are linear media so moving clips to a PC from tape is a real-time process. For anyone serious about the quality of his or her video, HDV recorded to MiniDV cassette remains the best consumer HD option available. To date, consumer non-linear video formats do not support the highest-quality video compression codices for high definition (HDV) and standard definition (DV).

HDV Compression Oddity?

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