Removing pulldown... cinema tools vs compressor vs ???

I have some footage shot at 24p on my canon hf 10. I need to remove pulldown. I saw this artice here
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2410?viewlocale=en_US):
now, which is a better method, to remove the pulldown, cinema tools or compressor, or even, another third party app does it better? Compressor and Cinema tools are 2 different programs, so they must have 2 different ways of doing things, and or results.
with compressor I have created a setting and a droplet on my desktop.
but I am interested in what the article says
*This method requires that you determine the cadence pattern for each clip.*
*In Final Cut Pro, choose the Easy Setup named "Apple Intermediate Codec, 29.97, HDV-Apple Intermediate Codec 1080i60".*
*Capture your clips.*
*Open each clip in Cinema Tools and manually reverse telecine each clip.*
how do I determine the Candence for EACH CLIP? also, if I shoot at 30p, do I also need to remove pulldown, or is this just for 24p?

piff aroni wrote:
I have some footage shot at 24p on my canon hf 10. I need to remove pulldown. I saw this artice here
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2410?viewlocale=en_US
Zak Ray wrote:
Not sure why the article is recommending using AIC-- as I see it, your options are 1) capture native HDV and transcode to ProRes + reverse telecine in Compressor, or 2) capture ProRes and reverse telecine in Cinema Tools.
The best way to figure it out is probably to just run a test.
Am in a very similar situation to Piff, and as Zak suggests am about to do some tests.
Meantime though, would be interested to hear from anyone with experience in this particular area, especially since the Knowledge Base article quoted above is a bit confusing on two fronts:
1) It refers to the Canon HV20, which shoots HDV, whereas the camera referenced by the original poster, the Canon HF10 -- assuming it's the same Canon HF10 I've been using -- shoots AVCHD files on SDHC cards (and/or its internal memory);
2) As Zak points out, it's surprising that there's no mention of ProRes, just AIC. The article says it was last modified July, 2008 -- was that pre-ProRes?
In any case, I'll try to post my results as soon as I can run my own Compressor vs. Cinema Tools tests -- but in the meantime would appreciate hearing any insights from those who've already been down that road, especially in regards to best practices for removing the pulldown added by the Canon HF10 when shooting "24p" (which as a colleague recently pointed out, should actually be called "24f", as in "24fake" -- since it's really just 29.97 interlaced in disguise).
Thanks,
John Bertram
Toronto

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Converting 29.97 to 23.98 -- Cinema Tools v Compressor.

Hi All,
I've been reading up on the forum about this, but not sure if I have come up with a conclusive enough answer, so hope you won't mind me posting this question:
I have 29.97 footage shot on Panasonic 3000 which I have to use in my 23.98 project. I've been told by our online editor to use Cinema Tools to change the tc to 23.98... as we just need to change the tc structure - Sync is not an issue. Something just sounds off about this to me, maybe I'm so used to doing conversions in Compressor. Any advice would be appreciated.
Cheers,
Susan.

YOu can't just "change the timecode to 23.98." You need to CONVERT the footage from 29.97fps to 23.98 fps. Cinema Tools will Reverse Telecine, removing redudant frames. But unless the footage was shot with 23.98 in mind (for example, it was shot 24pA with Advanced Pulldown Removal), your results might not look good. If this is footage that was shot 29.97 and NOT meant to be used as 24p, then you need to use Compressor, and set all the FRAME CONTROLS to best.
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I have a completed video file that is: 25fps, 1080p h264 video codec with a .mov container.
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Cinema Tool's pulldown removal and quality

How much quality is lost if you have 24p Normal being run thru Cinema Tools to edit in 24p? When it is transfered to film and video is it really noticable?
Thanks, Alex

I read this from here:
http://www.kenstone.net/fcphomepage/24p_in_FCPnattress.html
-----When “normal” 2:3:2:3 pulldown is removed (in Cinema Tools, say) the DV video needs to be decompressed so that the pulldown fields can be extracted. Final Cut Pro can remove the “advanced” 2:3:3:2 pulldown without decompressing the video, and hence it’s “in camera” quality can be maintained.------
It doesn't seem to make a big difference to this writer because he goes on to explain the advantages of 2:3 as well... I just thought perhaps someone could coment
This is a great website but are his settings correct... i.e. run it thru CT and then treat as advanced?
Thanks again!

Removing pulldown for footage shot in 24p

I just got a canon hf10 camcorder and I was using the 24p mode, but then I was told that my camera does not record true 24p. In order to get true 24p from that, I need to remove pulldown.
How does one remove pulldown using final cut pro?

Well I read your reponse and then got excited, but then I read this, and now Im even more lost. I am looking for a way that "just works", and the manuals dont help much.
http://www.microfilmmaker.com/tipstrick/Issue33/HF10WKTH.html
Final Cut Pro and Cinema Tools
Don’t try to remove the pull-down in Final Cut Pro or in Cinema Tools. Final Cut Pro actually passes the frames through to Cinema Tools to perform the pull-down removal, and Cinema Tools cannot remove the pull-down from this footage because it cannot deal with temporally-compressed video. If you try this you will get footage that looks like it is 24p, but will have peculiar interlaced frames where Cinema Tools has incorrectly removed a good frame and left a pull-down frame in place. Also, Cinema Tools will replace the original MOV file, not create a separate file. So it is destructive. And if you have Reverse Telecine operating in Final Cut Pro during Log and Transfer, it will result in an incorrect and unusable file.
Message was edited by: piff aroni

Cinema Tools doesn't recognize pulldown cadence on 24p DVCPRO 50

Hi everyone, I'm hoping someone can give me a couple suggestions on this...
I've been capturing 24p material for a documentary from different sources and with different pulldown cadences: DV @ 24p and 24p Advanced, and DVCPRO 50 @ 24p.
The extra frames from the two DV types get removed properly, but not from the DVCPRO 50. I take a clip into Cinema Tools and hit 'Rev Telecine..' (Automated so no options to choose from) and it gives me a 23.98 clip with the what should be the C frame interlaced. (A B C/D D)
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Thanks in advance,
Will
Dual 2.7 GHz G5, 4.5 GB RAM Mac OS X (10.4.2) FCP 5.03, Cinema Tools 3.03

I didn't know therre was an Automated way either until working on this project, and maybe it's a new setting in Cinema Tools 3. The manual says that CT will recognize the pulldown on the clip automatically when it was shot in a 24p video camera, that this information gets embedded in the clip. The dialog box it gives you for the automatic reverse telecine has no options at all, and all my clips started on an A frame for the possibility of doing all as a batch.
I may have found what happened, (although not how to fix it). My capture setting had Remove Advanced Pulldown checked, and the tapes were recorded with regular pulldown. In my experience with DV footage this has never mattered, it would remove it if it could and if not leave the clip alone.
It looks like there's a bug somewhere in the DVCPRO 50 capture process--that the clip is has the 24p Advanced markers embedded even though it is regular 24p, and so Cinema Tools treats it improperly and removes the wrong frames:
24p Advanced (2:3:3:2) A B B/C C D 29.97 Footage
24p (2:3:2:3) A B C/B C/D D
I I 0 I I (CT removing 2:3:3:2 Pulldown)
24p Advanced A B C D
24p *my result* A B C/D D 23.98 Footage
Has anyone else encountered this bug? Any work arounds known?
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Will

Problems with pulldown In Cinema Tools

I am attempting a pulldown on some footage shot at 24pA on the Sony V1U (which I was told on this forum was not real 24p and therefore did not require a pulldown but found out from Sony that it is) and captured at 29.97. Looking at the Quicktime file before the pulldown, every 3 frames are clear followed by 2 blurry ones (which I understand to be blurry due to being interlaced.) After the pulldown in Cinema Tools, 1 frame is clear and 3 are blurry. This gives the footage a "stuttered" or "jittery" look when viewed on an NTSC monitor. If I am editing this video with 29.97 video and my final export is NTSC, what is the best gameplan for dealing with the pulldown issue? To pulldown or not to pulldown? That is the question.

If you're not getting a clean pulldown removal, I wouldn't bother. The only reason to edit at 24 in standard def is if you're trying to author a 24fps DVD (which allows you to get better quality at a lower bitrate).
I don't have any experience with removing pulldown from material shot with this camera. I have removed pulldown from a film to tape transfer. I simply kept trying the different options available in cinema tools til I got a clean 24fps (actually 23.986) quicktime.
Message was edited by: Michael Grenadier

Browser says Advanced pulldown didn't take: try cinema tools?

I'm in the midst of capturing many hours of interview footage shot in 24PA on a DVX100a. Although I always use the advanced pulldown capture setting, my results are inconsistent at best. According to FCP5's browser, some of my captured clips are 23.xx fps while others are still 29.xx fps.
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If so,
2) Should I now go back and try to recapture the clips that are listed as being 29.xx fps? Or would I be better off using Cinema Tools, which I understand can remove the pulldown from an already captured clip. One factor in my reluctance to re-capture is because there are occassional TC breaks in my footage that I often have trouble removing pulldown on the fly.
Thanks!
Powerbook G4 15" Mac OS X (10.4.4)

I had this problem once with DVCPro HD, and found the problem to be that if my capture started in bars & tone (I would go 1 second into them, to ensure I got every frame of video), FCP would take the B&T frame rate for the whole clip, which happens to be 60i. So as a result, any clip that had B&T at the head was at 60, while any other clip that started midway through the tape was fine. Perhaps you have the same situation, where you are capturing a camera generated signal, which will be at 29.97, so FCP assumes that that is the frame rate you're going for.
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Shot FIRESTORE... P2 24p... now pulldown isn't working... Cinema TOOL??

I shot 24p on the Firestore... Panasonic HVX200... I dumped all orignal footage to a Firewire Drive. However I am having trouble importing the footage into Final Cut at 24p... It seems like the duplicate frames are not flagged and can not be removed. I have tried using the Frame Rate converter but then I lose audio sync. Does anyone have a work flow suggestion for me. I am running 5.1.4? The footage looks great but how do I get it to be true 24p?
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When you strip pulldown via Cinema Tools, it rewrites the file to 24 fps timecode, so recapturing isn't possible, in my experience, when the tape media is 29.97 timecode.
If you're working offline/online, yes, 24pA is better because when FCP strips the pulldown, the file retains the 29.97 fps timecode. That is, frames, and those timecode numbers, are simply skipped.
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Compressor, Qmaster, & Cinema tools will not launch

Compressor is grayed out as an option for export from STP even though I set prefs etc. Neither Compressor, Qmaster, nor Cinema tool will launch from apps.
As w FCP, I attempted to find a way to trash any prevoius prefs but am unable to locate any via user/library/userdata prefs etc.
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Libby

Libby
Check this Apple document about Compressor Basic Troubleshooting:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=302845
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Footage imported 720PN, Didn't remove pulldown, Fix in Compressor?

Hi, if you know this, you are truly an FCP ninja.
Was unfamiliar with the 720p workflow and simply used Import -P2 footage off of the card. Didn't use Remove Pulldown Box. Seemed simple enough, but now the footage is a mess. It's choppy and sped up. Don't have original files.
I understand that compressor (FCP 6.0.6) has a way to fix this? Is that true? Re-shooting is not an option and days are already gone. Any true Compressor ninjas out there? Please?
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Thanks for replying. I was beginning to think my post would be buried and never seen again.
I am aware of the need in CS4 to do the manual "Interpret Footage" step, which was not required in CS3 when needing to remove 3:2 pulldown.
But unless the 3:2 pulldown cadence information is recorded as part of taking the progressive footage and putting it into a 60i wrapper (i.e. your progressive footage is actually recorded on tape as a 60i signal, but where the frames follow a 3:2 pulldown system), then Premiere would be left to guess at the pulldown timing.
So far from my research, it would appear that a number of first-level prosumer cameras that do the 60i-wrapper method of recording progressive frames onto tape do not record the pulldown phasing information. That would prevent Premier Pro CS3 and CS4 from successfully restoring the footage to 24p after interpreting the footage.
People say that Sony and Canon are particularly bad about this. Panasonic cameras have not had reports of problems for SD progressive as well as HD progressive pulldown removal - that I know of at least -- so they appear to be consistent among their models for recording 3:2 cadence phasing information.
You mentioned that you are now having problems with your footage. A couple of questions for you. What model camera do you use? And are you using DV or HDV, or something else for your progressive footage?
For example, if you use a Canon XH-A1, do you shoot HDV 24pa mode? Thoses pieces of information will make the situation more clear.

Removing cinema tools

I need to remove cinema tools from my laptop. When I installed FCP, I installed all the FCP components and now need more space on my laptop's hard drive. I'm still getting used to macs after living in a pc world so bear with me a sec. Can I simply drag the cinema tools icon from the application folder to the trash? Or do I run the Final Cut installer, uncheck cinema tools and click upgrade? (the only option other than cancel)
Thx

You can simply delete the Cinema Tools application and the receipt associated with it in the /Library/Receipts/ folder.
(19810)

Hello I have a question about Converting 60 23.98 Cannon Mark III footage. In cinema tools, my footage stays grayed out. Both when I try my Compressor pro-res footage,

Hello I have a question about Converting 60>23.98 Cannon Mark III footage.
In cinema tools, my footage stays grayed out. Both when I try my Compressor pro-res footage, & original footage from cam.
When I convert from 60>23.98 in the Gopro app, it works fine.
Does anyone know if there is any quality loss in this app?
Also does anyone know another free software tht works great to convert markIII 60>23.98 footage?
Thank u thank u thank u !!!!

Questions about Cinema Tools should be asked in the Final Cut Studio forum.
Russ

Film Workflow w/ FCP & Cinema Tools

I am cutting a feature shot on film for the first time and have a workflow question. Apologies if this post has been done to death and feel free to send a link to another post or site.
The film is being shot in 2 perf 35mm. It is going to the post house to be transferred to HDSR for effects. We are being given DVCAM tapes with burnt in timecode at 29.97 for offline editing. We will then give them an EDL at the end for online.
So what's next?
If I capture the DVCam tapes at 29.97, I then have to conform in CinemaTools right? This is where I'm unsure, as I am not familiar with the program.
Any info on the steps would be VERY much appreciated. Cheers in advance!

BTW - That "read the cinema tools" response was both unhelpful and trite.
Your question deals with workflow, however, something confuses me.
If the feature was shot on 35mm, Telecine to HD-CAM SR and then downconverted to SD DV-CAM, I really doubt it is 29.97 w/ burned timecode.
Usually people shoot 24 when shooting film.
If that is the case then:
1) Your HD-CAM SR is 23.98
2) Your DVCAM is 29.97 with 23.98 Timecode burn in.
If you need to deliver an EDL for offline then your EDL will be worthless if your cutting in 29.97. The timecodes won't match.
So, the easiest thing (if an option) is to get the HD-CAM SR and get a Pro-Res file of that at 23.98. That could be converted down to whatever format you need for editing and wouldn't require removing pulldown. It will also give you a perfect EDL because it was taken from the master.
The second way, is to go the route you already have in mind.
1) Capture DVCAM at 29.97 and
2) remove 3:2 pulldown before you start editing.
There are many pitfalls with this method but atleast you have the burn-in to use as reference if you stray off course (meaning, you remove pulldown incorrectly).
Here are some methods:
A) track down After Effects. It has a function called Inerpret Footage. This will guess your pulldown and create new native media. This is my preferred method.
B) Use Cinema Tools. You should export a small segment of your footage and test removing the pulldown. Most don't get it right without determining the I-Frame.
C) Use Compressor's frame controls to remove your pulldown. This method (in my mind) is the sloppies of the bunch. It provides errors around cadence breaks... some people will disagree.
Either way, you'll need to treat that DVCAM footage before you start editing. Otherwise, you'll have to hand write your EDL if you cut in NTSC (29.97).
Hope this helps.

Problems with reverse telecine in Cinema tools

I am trying to reverse telecine some 24p footage I shot on a panasonic dvx. I have captured several tapes of footage in FCP 7 (as 29.97 footage to get the full data stream), then I have been sending clips to cinema tools to be reverse telecined, then bringing them back into FCP and editing on a 23.98 timeline. So far, I have used this workflow with three of my tapes and they all look fine in the end, but with one tape in particular I took all of the same steps but am having problems. When I bring clips from that tape into cinema tools and select "reverse telecine" it seems as if Cinema Tools is working and processing the footage, but at the very end the window with that clip suddenly disappears and no .rev file of the footage is created. Cinema tools remains open, only that window with the footage that was being processed is gone. I have tried recapturing the footage, renaming it, and double-checking my capture settings in FCP but have yet to figure out why these clips from this tape in particular will not be reverse telecined. Any suggestions about what I could be doing wrong?

I am almost positive I shot them the exact way, although the scene file dial on the dvx is pretty easily changed, so maybe if I bumped it during filming...
So to check, I looked at the footage before it was reverse telecined on an external moniter and it looks the same as all my other footage--with about 2 interlaced frames for every five frames. Is there another way I could check?
I'll try your compressor idea and see if that will remove the 3:2 pulldown! Thanks for the advice!

Removing pulldown... cinema tools vs compressor vs ???

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